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Mr. Howarth : My hon. Friend raises much wider constitutional issues, but the House has debated and freely took its decision.
Mr. Speaker : Now, Mr. Fatchett.
Mr. Fatchett : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that you now understand and appreciate some of the problems of school discipline. The Minister, in answer to his hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans), referred to £6 million to ease the problems of discipline, but that is less than £230 per school, so there is little money available on that basis. Does the Minister recognise that we live in a society in which the Government have presided over record crime levels, shown ambivalence towards the problems of law and order in their activities, and encouraged individualism, and that that is bound to be reflected in discipline problems in schools? Instead of simply blaming the
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teachers, is it not time that the Government gave them the necessary resources and recognised their responsibility for the lack of discipline in our schools?Mr. Howarth : The Government make no apology for having encouraged individualism and enterprise. The hon. Gentleman's inability to recognise that those qualities assort perfectly well with self-discipline shows the narrowness of his conceptions. I am sad that the hon. Gentleman suggests that there is widespread disorderliness in our schools, as that is a gross disparagement of teachers and it is not the case. Beyond that, the House would be interested to know how much more money the Labour party would propose to spend.
Advanced-level Examinations
11. Mr. Boswell : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has for the development of advanced-level examinations.
Mr. MacGregor : I have asked the School Examinations and Assessment Council to recommend general principles for advanced-level syllabuses and examinations, with a view to having an improved system in place by 1994. I have also asked the council for advice on the scope for embodying a range of core skills in the programme of all advanced-level students, and on the scope for credit transfer between A and AS-levels and vocational qualifications. I shall consider in due course the implications of what the council proposes.
Mr. Boswell : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is essential to increase the proportion of our pupils who stay on at school for A-levels and other qualifications beyond GCSE so that that proportion compares with our continental counterparts? Does he feel that he can reconcile that requirement with the equally important one of maintaining academic rigour?
Mr. MacGregor : I agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure that he will be pleased to know that the number staying on after 16 is increasing. The reforms that the Government have introduced over the years have a good deal to do with that. I also agree with my hon. Friend that it is important to maintain the academic rigour, excellence and standards of A-levels. A number of other issues also need to be addressed in relation to the 16 to 19-year-old group.
Mr. Straw : While it is certainly important that the examination at 18 years should be rigorous and of a high standard, does the Secretary of State recognise the widespread concern of university vice-chancellors, head teachers and many others about the narrowness of A-levels and the fact that that restricts the proportion of youngsters who study science at 18? Will the assessment of the 18-plus school examinations by the School Examinations and Assessment Council include the recommendations of the Higginson report? If it so chose, could the SEAC recommend the Higginson report recommendations?
Mr. MacGregor : Obviously there are debates about those matters, but the Government have made their position clear on the Higginson recommendations. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important to have broader educational activities in sixth forms. That is the purpose of the AS courses which are increasingly being
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taken up by universities as a method of entry in conjunction with A-levels, and that is an important way to proceed.Grant-maintained Schools
12. Mr Anthony Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made with the establishment of grant- maintained schools.
Mr. MacGregor : I am pleased to say that considerable progress is being made. As I said earlier, the first 18 grant-maintained schools started last September, and 44 grant-maintained schools will be operating this September. There will then be more grant-maintained schools in total than there are secondary schools in two thirds of English local education authorities.
Mr. Coombs : I welcome the excellent progress being made in this area, but does my right hon. Friend agree that the more schools there are that have experience of local management, the more there are that want to go the step further to grant-maintained status? Does my right hon. Friend further agree that nothing more clearly illustrates the Labour party's obsession with levelling down and its antipathy towards high standards than its vindictive opposition to this excellent idea?
Mr. MacGregor : I agree with my hon. Friend on both points. It is likely that, as more and more schools see the advantages of local management, they will also see the additional advantages which grant- maintained status gives them, taking them further in the direction of complete control over their budgets, with additional budgets at their disposal as a result of the expenditure from central funds and the further advantages that grant-maintained status brings. I entirely agree with the charges that my hon. Friend makes against the Opposition's policy. On assisted places, grant-maintained schools and city technology colleges, the Opposition deny choice and greater variety in the system. Their policy on assisted places denies opportunities to those parents who are prepared to make a contribution to their children's education which many Opposition Members have themselves had.
Mr. Flannery : The Minister must be easily pleased, as that number of 40-odd so-called grant-maintained schools, which we would describe as having opted out, is well below what the Government planned. Is he aware that in cities such as my own--Sheffield--there has not been one application for grant-maintained status, and I believe the same is true of Leeds, Wakefield and other great cities because people are completely opposed to the centralisation of education and believe that education should be the responsibility of local education authorities?
Mr. MacGregor : Given that grant-maintained status has only recently been introduced, there has been excellent progress so far. The hon. Gentleman should talk to head teachers and teachers in the grant-maintained schools, not to mention parents and governors. He will then see how popular they are and what a difference grant-maintained status makes to schools. I have described the policy as the jewel in the crown for parent power and I believe that its success will grow and grow.
Mr. Brandon-Bravo : Like many of my colleagues in Nottinghamshire, I have received correspondence from
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boards of governors in our schools complaining bitterly at their treatment by the county with regard to local management. Is my right hon. Friend saying that the Government's advice to those boards of governors is to apply immediately for grant-maintained status?Mr. MacGregor : Certainly I think that that is an option which more and more schools will wish to consider, and I hope that it will be drawn to their attention.
Pre-school Education
13. Mr. Haynes : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received regarding pre-school education ; and if he will make a statement.
Mrs. Rumbold : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State receives a good deal of correspondence on education for the under-fives. Most recently, more than 50 organisations and individuals have submitted evidence to my committee of inquiry on the quality of the educational experience of three and four-year-olds.
Mr. Haynes : Mr. Speaker, Sir, you have reachedNo. 13, so I think that you are wonderful.
Is the Minister aware that, irrespective of what Conservative Members have said today, Nottinghamshire county council provides a first-class service in the difficult conditions created by Government cuts? The Government, and particularly the Department of Education and Science, should be ashamed of Britain's pre-school education. We are struggling like hell to provide what is necessary and it is high time that the Minister cleared out all those responsible for that situation.
Mrs. Rumbold : The chairman of Nottinghamshire education committee, Councillor Fred Riddell, has assured me that he is proud of the education service that he provides. Apparently he provides it without much trouble.
Mr. Haselhurst : Notwithstanding the educational importance of getting under-fives into some organised system as quickly as possible, should not we also give some priority to ensuring that reception classes in primary schools are of manageable size? If we do not do that, the earlier work may be to no avail.
Mrs. Rumbold : My hon. Friend is right. The quality of the education received by three and four-year-olds is of paramount importance. That is why my committee of inquiry is looking at the quality of the people who teach the reception classes and the number of youngsters entering those classes. If those factors are not right, early education comes to nought.
Teacher Vacancies
14. Ms. Quin : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the current level of teacher vacancies throughout England ; and if he will make a statement.
Mrs. Rumbold : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science hopes to make available later this month the data for teacher vacancies as at January 1990.
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Ms. Quin : Are not the worst and most serious teacher shortages in maths, science, technology and modern languages, which are an essential part of the national curriculum? What hope can the Minister offer that when schools reopen in September after the summer holidays there will be a great improvement in the situation so that children will find qualified teachers ready to teach them in all the necessary subjects?
Mrs. Rumbold : As the hon. Lady knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science is looking urgently at this matter. There are bursaries to address teacher shortages in those subjects and to encourage postgraduate certificate of education students to go into teaching. In addition, we have mounted a good advertising campaign urging people to return to teaching, and especially to teach subjects for which there is a teacher shortage. The Government recognise that it is difficult to obtain enough teachers to teach certain subjects, but we are taking every opportunity to address the problem.
PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Miss Hoey : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 10 July.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Sir Geoffrey Howe) : I have been asked to reply My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is attending the economic summit in Houston.
Miss Hoey : I am sure that the Leader of the House would like to join us all in congratulating the England football team on winning the fair play award in the World cup. It is all very well for the Prime Minister to congratulate and take the credit for our sportsmen and women when things are going well and after the event, but does he agree that perhaps a little more fair play should be shown to voluntary sports clubs which are being crippled by the unified business rate? Is he proud of the fact that sport is more highly taxed in Britain than in any other European country?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : British sport is doing very well in a number of voluntary and professional respects. I join the hon. Lady in congratulating the England team on winning the fair play award. The House will be pleased that English clubs are to be readmitted to European football contests. Now that they have secured that place in Europe, we must be anxious to see that they stay there. If that is to be achieved, all hon. Members will join me in hoping that British fans will behave to the same standards as the England team in winning the award to which the hon. Lady referred.
Q2. Mr. Nicholas Bennett : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 10 July.
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have been asked to reply.
I have nothing to add to the reply that I gave a moment ago.
Mr. Bennett : Will my right hon. and learned Friend refer to the Law Officers for consideration by the fraud squad the findings of the Lightman inquiry into the accounts of the National Union of Mineworkers? Is he
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aware that that interminable inquiry, which did not receive evidence from key witnesses, found that 17 secret accounts were in operation and that £200,000 of Russian miners' money was used for personal reasons by Mr. Heathfield and Mr. Scargill? The report concluded that there had been a clear breach of the law with serious misapplications of funds and a breach of duty.Sir Geoffrey Howe : It would not be right for Ministers to comment directly on those gravely disquieting allegations. I am sure that the House hopes that all the appropriate authorities, and members of the National Union of Mineworkers, are studying the evidence most carefully.
It is also worth noting that the Government's trade union reforms have made unions and their leaders much more accountable to members. The role of the commissioner for the rights of trade union members should make such happenings much less likely in future. Meanwhile, all those who joined the Union of Democratic Mineworkers will be exceedingly glad that they did so.
Mr. Hattersley : Will the Lord President give a categorical assurance that the Government's community care proposals are to be implemented as planned next April?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : Those proposals will be getting under way in accordance with the statute in due course.
Mr. Hattersley : I understand why the Lord President is not so definite as he was when he last answered a question from me a fortnight ago. Is he aware that the Secretary of State for Health told the Select Committee last week, when asked if the plan would go ahead as scheduled, that the date of implementation was
"not as definite as it was."
What did that mean?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I repeat that the proposals and plans will be getting under way at the appointed date.
Mr. Hattersley : If the Lord President even attempts to answer the question, he may tell us whether he does not know the answer or whether he simply chooses not to give it. Is it not a fact that the plans are not going ahead as scheduled because (a) the Government will not devote enough central funds to financing them and (b) they are afraid that local authorities will have to make up the deficit by increasing already heavy poll tax burdens? Are not the Government simply saying that they do not care about the old and sick, and those who look after them, as long as they can avoid another exposure of the poll tax?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : The Government will be maintaining the community charge subject to the reviews still taking place, the outcome of which will be announced in due course. The right hon. Gentleman must appreciate that the implementation, and its pace, of any plans passed by the House must depend on the scale of resources available. That is a message that his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) seeks to proclaim on behalf of the Labour party. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) should pay attention to what his right hon. and learned Friend says.
Mr. Sims : Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that local authorities have put a good deal of
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work into preparations for the introduction of the community care proposals, which have been warmly welcomed in all parts of the House and the community? It will be a source of concern, confusion and disappointment, not only to local authorities but to potential beneficiaries, if the proposals are not implemented on the date that, for a long time, we have been given to understand that they would be.Sir Geoffrey Howe : I appreciate the natural interest and concern in the matter. The obligations are on the statute book. However, the pace at which such measures are introduced must inevitably depend on the feasibility of the scheme and the resources available.
Q3. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 10 July.
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have been asked to reply.
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Winnick : While she is out of the country--
Mr. Winnick : --and the Leader of the House does not have much to lose anyway, why does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not admit that the annual report of the community health councils shows only too well what is happening, with ward closures, cancelled operations, inadequate funding of the national health service and many people being discharged from hospital far too early? Does he agree that the Government's measures have made the national health service a poor relation of the private health sector? At the next election, who does he think will believe for one moment that the NHS has been safe in the hands of the Tory Government?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : All those who take account of the fact that last year the increase proposed for this year was no less than £2.9 billion, that the total increase in resources to the national health service has been 42 per cent. since the Government came to power in 1979, that there are 14,000 more doctors and dentists, 67,000 more nurses and midwives and a vast increase in the total services provided in the face of a rising population.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton : Is my right hon. and learned Friend concerned about the rapid rise in company liquidations in the past 12 months? Does he agree that it is time for the Government to consider ways of containing inflation other than the rather blunt instrument of interest rates? Is he aware that if there are company liquidations in all major sectors of our manufacturing economy, as there are, that will lead to unemployment, which will cost the Government a lot of money?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : My hon. Friend would do well to take account of the fact that, notwitstanding what he has said, there continues to be a strong net growth in the number of new business formations. At the end of last year, they were running at about 1,500 per week. That is further testimony to the continuing strength of the economy.
Q4. Mr. Meale : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 10 July.
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Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have been asked to reply.I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Meale : Is the Leader of the House aware that as we head towards the summer recess, homelessness in Britain is becoming considerably worse? Is he further aware that it is estimated that about 750,000 people in Britain are homeless, that 120,000 are living in bed-and-breakfast accommodation, and that 6,000 are living on the streets?
When the Prime Minister returns from Texas, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman show her a video of the excellent programme, "Cathy, Where are You Now?", which was broadcast last night? Then perhaps both sides of the House can get together to solve the problem of homelessness before we have another winter with people living on the streets.
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be grateful for the fact that we recently announced an increase of £2 million in the resources available for advice and help for the homeless, an additional £15 million in resources for shelters, and an additional £250 million in resources for London and the south-east over the next two years. The hon. Gentleman should also remember that 100,000 dwellings, under the control of Labour councils, are standing empty. Indeed, the worst authorities in that respect are all Labour controlled.
Mr. Tracey : Will my right hon. and learned Friend assure the House that in the current community charge review there will be an absolute rejection of any idea of a return to the domestic rating system--something that was so often condemned, especially by the Opposition?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : My hon. Friend has the assurance that we have given many times--that the current review, the results of which will be announced in due course, is a review of the operation and not a review of the structure of the community charge. There is a great deal more certainty about the position under this Government than there is about the position under the Opposition's plans.
Q5. Mrs. Margaret Ewing : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 10 July.
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have been asked to reply.
I refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mrs. Ewing : Given that the leaders at the G7 summit have issued a communique suggesting that the 1990s should be known as the decade of democracy, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us his definition of democracy? If he believes that people's aspirations are best expressed through the ballot box and through elected representatives, what message has he for the people of Scotland, who have made it abundantly clear that they do not want either the siting of a nuclear waste dump in, or the transportation of nuclear waste through, their country? Does he accept that Nirex and the Secretary of State can override those people's aspirations?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : The Secretary of State's position was set out in the reasons that he gave for his modifications to the Highland regional council structure plan. His intention to modify it in that way has been advertised. Objections to his proposed modifications should be submitted in writing by 10 August.
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Q7. Dame Jill Knight : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 10 July.
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have been asked to reply.
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Dame Jill Knight : Will my right hon. and learned Friend take this opportunity to commend the setting up by the Lord Chancellor of 94 new children's courts, with special judges who will have special training? Can we hope that procedures that formerly intimidated children, such as the dress of judges and the procedure of the courts, will be changed and that there will be more women judges in that important area?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to that important step forward in the implementation of the Children Act 1989, which will promote and safeguard the welfare of children as all hon. Members would wish. My hon. Friend can take some comfort from the fact that judges with proper training in tha field will be well aware of the need that she identified for sympathetic treatment. She will also be glad to know that the Lord Chancellor is anxious to see more women on the bench. As there are a growing number of women with experience as advocates, the number of women on the bench is likely to grow and that would be a good thing.
Mr. Martyn Jones : Will the Lord President find time to ask the Prime Minister when she comes back from Texas to talk to the junior Minister at the Department of Trade and Industry, who is supposedly involved in consumer affairs but seems to be hell bent on killing my Consumer Guarantees Bill which gives consumers the right to have shoddy goods replaced, and tell him that if he is to continue in his job as consumer affairs Minister he should represent consumers and not manufacturers?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : As I understand the matter, the hon. Gentleman withdrew his Bill.
Q8. Mr. Robert G. Hughes : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 10 July.
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have been asked to reply.
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Hughes : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the rejection of socialism all over eastern Europe has one main feature--that people throughout eastern Europe recognise that free enterprise and the free market culture are the best guarantees of democracy and freedom? Does he agree that that should be the case throughout Europe and that the only people who do not recognise that fact are the members of the Labour party?
Sir Geoffrey Howe : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that the people of eastern Europe are turning their backs on socialism, having seen its catastrophic failure. I wish that we could say the same of the Opposition.
STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Ordered,
That the draft Department of Trade and Industry (Fees) (Amendment) Order 1990 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Chapman.]
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