House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Jul 1990

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services, but Bev Smith is used to those provided by Derbyshire county council, and in the event of a boundary change he would move south to remain in Derbyshire.

That, surely, is a tribute to Derbyshire's special-education service. Similar examples could be quoted in relation to not only special but primary, secondary and further education, but services that are regularly attacked through the Government's educational programmes are now being attacked through charge capping. Should it be the social services that are attacked, such as Derbyshire county council's family care and support service? Should it be its home help service, which is free to those in need? That is a concept that Conservatives do not wish to see in operation- -the concept that people in need should have sufficient services provided by the community, free of charge. It runs against the Conservative party's so-called principle of accountability, which itself attacks the democratic system in this country, because it undermines electoral registration and has knocked people off the register. Do Conservative Members want to increase the meals-on-wheels charges in Derbyshire, which average 35p, compared with the English average of 81p? Do they want to attack aid to the disabled in Derbyshire? There is a fine centre for the disabled known as the Ripley centre for integrated living. Derbyshire county council, working together with disabled people, can be justly proud of it. It is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Amber Valley. When I became a Member of Parliament, attending its opening was one of the first appointments that I kept. Unfortunately, the local Member was not there, having not responded to the invitation to attend the opening of the centre, which is of vast importance to Derbyshire. There are many other services, including the police, highways, planning, recreation and tourism--the Peak district planning board is within the area--with which I could deal if time permitted. Government action has caused other problems in Derbyshire

Mr. Wilshire : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Barnes : I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. At least I explained my non-attendance for a period during the debate. The Government have persistently imposed financial difficulties on Derbyshire county council. The leader of Derbyshire county council, David Bookbinder, contributed an article to a recent edition of The House Magazine. It was an interesting article and I was pleased to see it published. So far, I have not been mentioned in that magazine except in the blue pages. The article was about local government services and says :

"By far our greatest problem has been uncertainty. There has scarcely been a single financial year when the same rules and criteria established during the previous year have applied and, time after time, our Treasurer has found himself unable to programme expenditure because, even days before the budget fixing deadline, the criteria has been changed We learned of Mr. Patten's proposal to poll tax cap Derbyshire in April, after most of the county's nine district councils had issued demands to their charge payers." The cost to the district councils of sending out fresh bills has to be picked up by the county council. Deputation after deputation went to the Department of the Environment to point to the nonsense of the formula for the provision of funds and the further cuts in the grants for

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Derbyshire which have taken place year after year since the government came to power. That has led to the crisis in which the council now finds itself.

Where will Derbyshire council make cuts? No firm decisions have been made, but possibilities were mentioned in a letter sent by David Bookbinder by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett). It suggested that the £40 million cut could be achieved by dismissing 1,000 staff, doubling the price of school meals and meals on wheels, closing all nursery schools, four aged people's homes and four children's homes. It also suggested abolishing community transport and concessionary fares, cutting home help services by 20 per cent., dismissing 90 police officers and 35 fire officers and not spending the £7 million that had been earmarked for the improvement of schools in Derbyshire. Schools in many rural and semi-rural areas have outside toilets and some of those schools were built more than 100 years ago. Those are the cuts facing Derbyshire as a result of the orders.

Conservative members on Derbyshire county council take a somewhat different stance from that taken by the Government. Initially, they proposed a cut of £20 million in the Derbyshire budget, which is well below the proposed £40 million cut. Now they are retracting that.

Mr. William Cash (Stafford) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Barnes : No, because other hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), who represents a Derbyshire constituency, wish to speak.

On 7 May Councillor Norman Wilson said :

"Further to our meeting of 3 May 1990, having had explained to me some of the more difficult points and sensitive parts of the negotiations concerning Toyota, I now accept without reservation that the land which we sold to Toyota after compulsory purchase was sold at a fair and proper price and withdraw my remarks and those of my Group that the land was under sold."

That was one of the allegations levelled at Derbyshire county council. The letter continues :

"I further recognise and support the Council's initiative of Derbyshire in Japan' and would be prepared now to demonstrate this support with my presence. I agree that a budget reduced by £40 million will still require a contingency provision that may be only £3 million-£4 million less than the existing budget,".

He is speaking there about the budget before the poll tax provision. He goes on :

"but the £20 million that I propose now may not be achievable in the revised budget."

That is the £20 million cut about which he had spoken. He continued :

"The points you raise regarding my claim that £4 million can be saved from the publicity budget. This was said to the Press in an unguarded moment and was a mistake and I accept that the publicity budget is no where near the £4 million that I suggested and apologise for any inconvenience caused."

There is another complex point about a public inquiry, which I shall not read out, but the final paragraph says : "Hopefully, this resolves all the issues between us and I look forward to a renewed and beneficial working relationship for the benefit of the community that we both serve."

That is an abject apology, all the way along the line.

I could say much more about these orders and the nonsense of the formulas and the budgets used against the

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Derbyshire county council, but I shall make those points on some other occasion. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover wants to make important points.

Mr. Skinner : That man told a pack of lies.

Mr. Barnes : It sounds as though that is the case.

10.21 pm

Mrs. Rosie Barnes (Greenwich) : I shall not dwell for too long on the capping mechanism. The Secretary of State is entitled to use the powers given to him by Parliament, and that is what he has done. But it is not only the hon. Member for Dagenham and his colleagues who believe that the list of capped authorities, with not one Conservative administration among them, is a political fix. That view is shared by most fair-minded people. All political parties in Greenwich oppose this move. It may have been a clever political conjuring trick, and while it says something about the skill and ingenuity of the civil servants involved, it reflects no credit on the Government.

The argument that the poll tax is a fair tax was lost a long time ago. These capping proposals are the final nail in the coffin of the argument that the poll tax would, above all else, make councils accountable. One of the main aspects of this flagship policy was that it was to bring local authorities to heel and give electors the power to say yea or nay to levels of spending. This evening's debate shows once again how interventionist the Government are.

The right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) told the House that capping was to be

"a reserve power--rarely, if ever, used, we hope--to protect the charge payers of an area against extreme cases of extravagant and irresponsible local authorities."--[ Official Report, 25 April 1988 ; Vol. 132, c. 510].

We are being asked to accept that Calderdale district council, which set a community charge of £297, is so extravagant and irresponsible as to demand Government action to protect its charge payers. I doubt whether any hon. Member seriously believes that to be the case.

I am no more enthusiastic about local Labour authorities than are many Conservative Members. Labour's hard left is alive and well and living in Greenwich, despite the conciliatory remarks of the Opposition spokesman this evening. Greenwich council spends large sums of money on projects that I and many of the electorate do not consider worth while. Nevertheless, I have to agree with those Opposition Members who say that in certain areas-- Greenwich is one of them--the poll tax has been put to the test in local elections. The Labour party in Greenwich won convincingly. I must give credit where credit is due. Voting took place after the £408 charge was widely publicised.

Reductions in services should be made, if they have to be made at all, so as to cause as little damage as possible. However, can it be done and will it be done? The Greenwich Times , which costs £300,000, and the women's unit, which does not have a viable function, should be axed, but that will not happen. They will almost certainly be at the bottom of the list. The weakness of capping is that it tempts local authorities to make cuts that hit the elderly, the disabled and the most vulnerable. They will say that the cuts have to be made to underline the unacceptable nature of the poll tax and the harshness of capping. The Government have provided the opponents of the poll tax with a perfect weapon.

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The community charge in Doncaster was to have been £338. After capping, it is £285. In the local elections last May, 66.3 per cent. of the voters in Doncaster supported the Labour party. I may not like it and Conservative Members may not like it, but that was the choice of the people of Doncaster. Why, then, does the Secretary of State say, "I know more about your area, the services that you want and the charge that you are willing to pay than you do ; your council must not charge more than the amount that I have set?" Many local authorities, including mine, are already struggling because of the cuts.

Although there is inefficiency, and although there are many matters that I should like to be tackled differently, the fact is that there is precious little fat left to cut in Greenwich. This morning I visited a school in my borough for children with severe learning difficulties. If one has not visited such a school, one is inclined to think of children with learning difficulties as slightly backward and incapable of doing as well as others. However, many of these children are confined to wheelchairs. Many of them cannot feed themselves, and a fairly large number are doubly incontinent. Even when food is put into their mouths, many of them suffer from such severe brain damage that their reflexes do not allow them to swallow.

For the first time ever in Greenwich, these children are being told that when they reach the age of 19 no social service or other provision will be available for them. Education services will cease at 19. Until now, they have been cared for in a special school throughout the day. Moreover, respite care has been available--often for one week out of four--throughout the early years of their life. All that will cease at 19. For the first time ever in Greenwich, the parents of the children who leave that special school are being told that no more can be done for them and that they must be kept at home. Such a burden is intolerable, unacceptable and short- sighted. Invariably, the health or mental stability of the carer will break down and the child will end up in residential care.

There is an alternative to the poll tax and poll tax capping. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me remind him yet again that local income tax is a viable option and that proper accountability and responsibility would result from proportional representation in local authority elections. Although there can be no doubt that the people of Doncaster voted overwhelmingly for what they got, only two out of five people in the borough of Greenwich voted for the Labour party. However, it won 44 of the 62 seats.

For the benefit of the Labour party, I shall put the other side. At the last general election in the borough, which contains three parliamentary seats, the Labour party had more than a third of the votes, but did not gain a seat. One Conservative and two SDP candidates were elected. Proportional representation would work both ways in those circumstances. As the Labour party had one third of the vote, it would have gained a seat.

Local income tax, combined with proportional representation, would allow the Government to leave local authorities to set their own charges, confident that local charge payers were capable of making their choices and that their preferences would be reflected in the composition of the councils for which they voted.

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Mr. Wilshire : Will the hon. Lady reconsider her approach--that if we had this or that, it would leave local government free to make its own decisions? What about the national interest? That cannot be ignored in the name of letting local people spend exactly what they want.

Mrs. Barnes : All my remarks have been in the interest of the nation as well as of local authorities. Nationally, proportional representation and local income tax would enhance democracy. I am trying to put a constructive alternative. I am not being negative about the poll tax while not suggesting an alternative.

Proportional representation would put an end to the many complacent boroughs, where one or both main parties are almost guaranteed a permanent hold on power often despite commanding only minority support. That breeds inefficiency and political smugness. Knowing that their position will be based and judged on their performance would work wonders for accountability. It is my belief that it is fair and democratic that the number of councillors elected be proportional to the number of votes cast.

I wish to relate charge capping to what I consider to be one of the most serious victims of that approach--community care. For some weeks, there has been speculation about whether there would be a delay in implementing the community care aspects of the national health service legislation. Tonight's news appears to confirm that that will happen. It is a widely acclaimed and popular policy, supported by all hon. Members. It is now threatened by the folly of another Government policy--the poll tax.

The transfer of community care to local authorities now appears likely to be delayed because of panic about next year's poll tax levels. Some local authorities have estimated that community care could cost £500 million on top of what social security departments would transfer to their budgets. That could amount to as much as £15-plus per head on poll tax. If people knew that that was the reason for the additional charge, I am sure that they would find it acceptable.

If reports are to be believed, in the additional sums that have been gained by the Secretary of State to soften the blow of poll tax next year--I understand it to be £3.5 billion--nothing has been earmarked for community care. It appears as though it is now set to join other areas of local authority responsibility and be sacrificed on the altar of the poll tax.

Community care is being threatened in three ways--the failure to ring-fence the funds ; the delays because of panic about the poll tax ; and erosion by charge capping. Those of us who have always supported community care warned that it would not be care on the cheap. It is clear that, once the cost became apparent, the Government had cold feet, and community care will now have to pay second fiddle to the Government's chances of winning another general election.

The Government must make up their minds. Do they want local authorities and the local electorate to have the freedom to decide how much to spend on services in their areas, including on community care, or do they want to ensure a basic level through earmarked grants? We look forward to hearing. The aim of a single doorkeeper to community care should not be sacrificed in a vain attempt to make a bad tax better. Nor should accountability be further eroded.

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I make one final plea. My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich (Mr. Cartwright) outlined the incomprehensibility of the standard spending assessment for Greenwich when he spoke in a debate on 18 January. The mathematical complexities, which all of us find difficult, are exacerbated in the case of Greenwich by the erroneous and outdated assumptions about it. Any hon. Member who has canvassed there in an election will remember that it has its fair share of inner-city features-- tower blocks, densely packed estates, poverty, high infant mortality--the list could go on. However, the disparity in our spending assessment in relation to other London authorities with a broadly similar composition of population is striking. Greenwich has the lowest SSA in London ; it is £398 below the highest. That is particularly evident in social services. Greenwich has had a difficult time with a number of child tragedies and, as I have said, it has a high infant mortality rate.

I plead for a thorough review of the SSA, based on current information, before any further decisions are taken about Greenwich.

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10.36 pm

Mr. Allen McKay (Barnsley, West and Penistone) : This is a sad day because we are seeing a further erosion of local democracy. That is what this debate is all about. The Government are exercising a dictatorial authority, via a Secretary of State who is working against the will of the people, who made their will known through the ballot box. It is sad when, due to their huge majority and the arrogance of power, central Government move against the people. From area to area we have had clear evidence of people supporting their local representatives against the poll tax and against poll tax capping. That has been proved in our debate by hon. Members from the whole of England and Wales, from north, south, east and west. The poll tax is unwanted and undemocratic. It is unwanted by our constituents, who are fair-minded people. It is also unwanted by the chambers of commerce and industry throughout the country which realise the damage that the legislation will cause. All are agreed that it is a rotten piece of legislation from a rotten Government. It was originally intended to introduce the poll tax over a 10-year period. Initially, that seemed worth consideration because for 40 years--throughout the time that I spent in local government--local government has been seeking a better alternative to the rating system, but it has not found it. The alternatives have been too hard to collect, too easy to evade or too expensive. The poll tax is no different. It is exactly what the name implies--a charge on every person, irrespective of ability to pay. The poll tax capping that is being introduced in these orders is a way of putting the boot in to local authorities when they have already been broken down by the despotism and arrogance of central Government, with their ignorance of local government. The electorate, who clearly stated their view at the ballot box, will have to take the consequences of that arrogance. The consequences lie on the Government's shoulders.

Throughout my life in politics I have examined the case for proportional representation. For various reasons, I have always been against it. However, if we have to accept proportional representation to make sure that no longer do we live under a Government such as the present one, so be it. Despite overwhelming support for Labour in the local elections in my constituency, central Government 200 miles away believe that they know better. That point can be highlighted by the answer to a question that I tabled. The answer was :

"The charge capping which, if the House approves, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment intends to set, represents his view of what is reasonable"--[ Official Report, 3 July 1990 ; Vol. 175, c. 536. ]

How are the views of the electorate taken into account when the Secretary of State says that his view must be paramount?

The Government usurp the authority of local government by imposing on my constituents that which clearly they do not want. That has been shown time after time in my area at the ballot box.

On my local authority there are 63 councillors--60 Labour, one Conservative, one other and one independent. Councillors have been elected in similar proportions many times. The local authority went to the electorate on the issue of poll tax capping, not the poll tax. On that issue, the Labour party increased its majority, its number of votes and its number of seats. That is a clear demonstration that the people of Barnsley wanted not poll

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tax capping but the services that the local authority provides. I question the right of central Government, in their power and arrogance, to override the wishes of the local electorate. Barnsley is not by any means a high spender--no way. Its problems are similar to those which have been mentioned by my hon. Friends. It is an area of low rateable values, high unemployment--about 13 per cent., twice the national average--and low wages. Everything in the grant-related expenditure assessment went against us. We have overcome that to an extent. But our standard spending assessment is wrong. That has caused us problems.

Barnsley's problem, like Doncaster's, Rotherham's, St. Helens' and Wigan's, is a low SSA. Barnsley's assessment must be examined. The assessment has fallen from the average for 1983-84 to that for 1989-90. It hovered at between 87 per cent. and 90 per cent. of the average assessment for metropolitan districts. In 1991 it will fall to 84 per cent. of the average. If Barnsley's assessment had risen as much as Bradford's, it would have received an extra £20 million in 1990 and 1991 and would not have been capped. Barnsley's assessment rose by only 2 per cent. between 1989-90 and 1990-91. It did not even keep pace with inflation.

How does the Secretary of State come to the conclusion that Barnsley needs less money to look after its aged population than any other authority? How is it that Barnsley's primary and secondary schoolchildren need less money spent on their education than those of any other authority? How is it that Barnsley needs less money to overcome its problems than elsewhere?

Poll tax capping imposes an additional administrative charge on Barnsley of £1.8 million. The late changes made by central Government in transitional relief contributed to late delivery of software. As a consequence, no bills have been sent out since March covering any change of circumstances, and non-payment reminders have only just been mailed.

Poll tax collection is running at 60 per cent. of the expected level among both private householders and business and industry. Interest charges on the money borrowed to compensate for that situation are now running at £67,000 per month. The rebilling that is a consequence of the Government's reassessment has cost another £250, 000.

It may be that the expected return of £59 per poll tax payer will not materialise because the original assessment of collection charges was wrong. It was set at 5 per cent., but it is currently running at twice that figure. Additionally, there is the cost of borrowing. Between now and next year the whole system may fall into disrepute. Mr. Portillo indicated dissent.

Mr. McKay : The Minister may shake his head, but can he say why in the past, when changes were made to the rates, they were implemented in the following, not the current, year? Why must changes be implemented in the same year that the poll tax is introduced, causing extra difficulties?

The poll tax has never been properly thought through. There have been many achievements in my constituency in industrial regeneration. Some £100 million of investment has been attracted. The area was once dependent upon

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coal, steel and engineering, but the bottom fell out of all three, which is the reason for Barnsley's high unemployment rate. The local authority took it upon itself, in partnership with private industry--including Costain--to regenerate the area. However, the poll tax will mean that the meagre balances upon which those plans are dependent will no longer exist. Ours is not a rich authority by any means. The amount in balances is £7 million, £5 million of which is earmarked for the Costain venture. There is £2 million left, but the district auditor is telling the local authority that it should have £6 million instead. So no one can point a finger at that authority and accuse it of high spending.

The damage that will be caused by capping the authority is already being seen. We have been forced to close the music centre--a centre of excellence --and to sack 24 of its teachers. On the table is the closure of two aged people's homes and one children's home ; charges for home help ; the closure of branch libraries and the reduction of hours of opening of others ; the closure of nursery schools or the introduction of a £5 to £7 weekly charge ; cuts in tertiary college education in respect of a college that has not yet even opened ; the ending of children's swimming lessons ; a cut in the hours that the pool opens ; staff redundancies ; leaving vacancies unfilled ; and a rise in all local authority charges, including school meals. Financial support to community industry is to cease and there will be no Christmas decorations in the metropolitan borough this year. Support for youth clubs will also be cut. All that is happening under the first two trawls, but we are still short of £2.5 million. The third trawl will hurt us very deeply.

What will happen next year and in the two years after that, once the transitional period ends? What will happen if we need £40 next year, another £40 the year after that and £40 in the year after that for the poll tax? What will happen in future if we are capped this year? Are we to be poll-taxed again on items that we do not have? Are we to incur expenditure that we cannot afford? Are we to suffer once more from the Government's dictatorial attitude via the Secretary of State?

My constituents are asking questions such as those. The poll tax is rotten legislation from a rotten Government. I can derive joy only from the thought that this legislation, together with that for the national health service, will lead to the Government's demise and they will disappear for ever.

10.50 pm

Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay) : I want to refer to two councils in my constituency--Thurrock, which has not been capped, but which should be, and Basildon, which is one of the most notorious high spenders in the country. I speak also on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess) whose important duties in the House prevent him from speaking on his own behalf. However, I know that he shares my sentiments and, as the hon. Member for Basildon, perhaps feels more strongly than I about what is happening to his electorate.

Basildon has introduced a poll tax of £478 per head and that is £234 per adult above the standard spending assessment. Not many councils are worse than that. Basildon has a notorious history of overspending. It has been capped many times and it richly deserves its colloquial name of Moscow-on-Thames. However, I am

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not sure whether the people of Moscow are worse off than the people of Basildon and Billericay who live within the area of that profligate council.

Mr. Boateng : Will the hon. Lady give way?

Mrs. Gorman : No, I will not, because I have just begun. However, I will bear the hon. Gentleman in mind.

Basildon council had a budget of £13 million two years ago. It raised that to £23 million last year and this year it proposes to bring in a budget of £28 million. The capital expenditure that it has indulged in, largely on the assumption that there would be a Labour Government at the last election who would wipe out its debt, has been truly horrendous.

In the past year a new town hall was opened at a cost of £18 million. Before that, the council spent £9 million on a municipal theatre. Two new sports centres cost £4.5 million and naturally enough all those organisations are running at a loss. Our debt bill is so enormous now that 30 per cent. of the budget of £28 million that the council wants to raise comprises debt charges. It is deplorable that a council should take on that amount of debt. Those debts will, of couse, be passed on to future generations of residents to settle long after the profligate spenders on the present council have disappeared.

Basildon council is approximately one third Liberal. The Liberals have voted throughout with Labour for all the high spending. They voted for the town hall, for the Town Gate theatre and for the sports centres. They will vote for anything and everything that Labour chooses to adopt. In practice, they are no different from the Labour party.

The people communicated what they thought about the council in the May elections when one third of the seats were contested--the Conservative party polled 1,000 votes more than the Labour party. If those results are projected over three years, it means that we shall sweep Labour out of office. The people of Basildon and Billericay will be rid of the profligate spenders eventually. Fortunately, the Liberal vote completely collapsed during the elections and I hope that a little more sense will now be shown by those running the system.

The Conservatives of Basildon worked out a budget which meant that the community charge was £100 less than that quoted by the Labour party. However, Basildon council gets rid of its money by sending Valentine cards to all its electors to tell them about the poll tax. It also sent out a letter from the leader of the council which cost about £9,000 to distribute. In addition to offering bus passes to every pensioner, the council offers food and leisure vouchers to those who do not want that pass. Those vouchers are wonderful for those who are not spending their own money, but they are spending the money of other pensioners who pay the community charge because they saved up to buy their houses. They do not qualify for all the forms of rebate available, and their pockets are being picked to pay for the vote-buying exercises indulged in by the Labour majority. The Labour council no longer has any mandate for its actions.

Mr. Harry Barnes : The hon. Lady may say that the council has no mandate, but the Conservatives have no mandate for poll tax-capping. The election manifesto spoke of the poll tax, but it implied that poll tax- capping would not be introduced as such decisions would lie with the local electorate.

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Mrs. Gorman : I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to make a point, but the Government are here to protect people when Labour councils seek to exploit a sensible change in the way in which local revenue is raised. The Government are right to seek to reduce the community charge in Basildon by a certain amount--it will be greatly reduced when we have defeated the Labour majority and wiped out the Liberals who consistently vote with Labour.

Basildon council employs 10 per cent. more administrative staff per 1,000 residents than the national average--it is all about jobs for the boys. Heads of Department of every conceivable nature are appointed almost daily, as well as area committees and new offices for those committees. Every ward now has a committee paid for out of the rating system. That is all unnecessary. The House should note, however, that the 10 per cent. surplus is based on figures given two years ago. The Government have been unable to get any other figures since then, because the council has not put in its returns. Why not? It is either because the council is so busy spending our money on other things that it does not have time to fulfil its commitment to the Department of the Environment or because it is jolly well ashamed to admit that it is beefing up its staff. I believe that 50 per cent. of the jobs in the council could go.

The council has a publicity department which spends £400,000 a year trying to sell Labour policies to the electorate, which is a misuse of local government money. "Basildon Link", a newspaper, is delivered every week and costs £68,000 a year in subsidies alone. We already have three free newspapers that contain all the local news people want--they are a lot more interesting, because they are concerned with what the community does. The Labour party misuses public money in a deliberate attempt to sell its policies to the electorate. It is an outrage that the people who seek to administer our community have added to the council's debts by challenging the Government's legal right to cap it.

The local council is one of the worst in the country. We do not need these councillors and I am sure that over the next few years we will be able to work them out of office. I thank and congratulate the Government on behalf of my constituents and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon.

The problem with Basildon is that it lives in the age of Neville Chamberlain, when the state was considered to be the organ for everything, but local government is different now. I sat on the Committee that considered the Local Government Act 1988, which made local authorities put out to tender functions such as cleaning, catering and so on. I certainly hope that I shall be in the House long enough to see most of the functions of local authorities put out to the private sector and subject to competition.

I said in Committee that I do not know why we need local councils. We get adequate distribution of milk and newspapers--even free newspapers--without the intervention of local authorities. Why should not people pay directly for their dustbins to be emptied? Why do we need a sub-contracted municipal service? Local authorities in the United States are run as companies, with a managing director and a small elected board of directors. Every function from accountancy to road sweeping, street lighting and looking after parks is contracted out to the private sector.

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Mr. Wilshire : My hon. Friend is right that such things occur in America and I wish that they were here, but is she aware that those councils are still local government?

Mrs. Gorman : I take my hon. Friend's intervention. I said that the board of directors is elected, but it is small and its mandate is to provide services as economically and efficiently as possible. We are moving along those lines and I look forward to seeing more of that system here. As I know from experience as a Westminster city councillor, that is the efficient way of getting things done. Wandsworth, where I was born and raised, is even more efficient and effective. There is no reason why the people of Basildon should not enjoy the community charges that people in those communities enjoy. They have returned Conservative councillors with massive majorities. I want to say something about my constituents in Thurrock, whose community charge is high. I hope sincerely that the Government will consider capping that council, which suffers from a Labour administration and unnecessarily high charges. People in my constituency would dearly love to be separated from that profligate council. They have been petitioning the Government for many years for a separate council simply because they see no other way of escaping from this appalling spendthrift organisation. Although we must suffer this administration pro tem, it will be relatively short term. We have seen the turn of the tide with these new measures and with more Conservative votes being cast at the last election than we have had before. I am sure that everything that the Government are doing is absolutely right. They are spot on, because people want to know what these councillors are doing. They want to be able to respond to that through the ballot box, and they are doing so in our constituencies. I congratulate the Government on what they are doing, and I urge them to stick to their guns, to keep up the pressure and to keep down the wretchedly high community charges under which the people of Billericay, Basildon and Thurrock have suffered.

11.4 pm

Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South) : It is tragic to hear the ignorance of the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman), who does not even understand that Chamberlain was a Conservative. Unfortunately, it seems that the Conservatives have moved away from the principles that once included a concept of justice and of social acceptance ; they have moved into the arena of grab, greed, thieving and corruption--these are now the order of the day.

The hon. Member for Billericay is ignorant not only of the history of her party but of social justice. She fails to appreciate that the poll tax is not fair, and that the standard spending assessments are not fair. Had she been here earlier, she would have heard the brilliant speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy) and realised that the whole basis of the SSAs is the 1981 census. In St. Helens as much as anywhere else, times have moved on. The industrial base has changed. Demography has altered-- [Interruption.] I hope that the hon. Member for Billericay will listen ; she might learn something.

There have also been demographic changes in Basildon, Thurrock and other places. If SSAs are arrived at on the basis of figures that are nearly nine years old, mistakes are

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bound to be made. If mistakes are made in SSAs, the areas affected by them will suffer when their poll tax is calculated. That, too, is not fair.

I endorse, adopt, accept and support every word that my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, North (Mr. Evans) said earlier. I do not intend to repeat his arguments, but let us examine what has happened in St. Helens in the past nine years. We have lost two thirds of our coal mining jobs, and many glassworks have closed. Industry has been modernised. The number of employees in the glassworks has fallen from 28,000 to about 9,000. Other industries have gone out of business too.

If SSAs are based on the 1981 census, the Minister must accept, if he is fair, that mistakes will be made. We once had a massive mental health hospital in St. Helens called Rainhill. When I was first elected to my seat, it contained 1,300 to 1,500 patients. Last week it contained 190. Where have the other 1,300 gone? They have gone on to the streets of Liverpool, into cardboard city.

There have also been problems associated with the health service. A change of emphasis has meant people going into the community, where there must be social services to help them. None of these facts was reflected in the 1981 census, so they are not reflected in our SSA. I have three simple questions for the Minister. First, if the SSA is based on the 1981 census, what steps have been taken to account for the demographic, industrial, social, housing and health changes of the past nine years? I have put the question to the Department in writing. It has been asked by the local authority in my constituency and by many other organisations and individuals. None of us has received an answer, but generally the answer is known--it is none. What would be the position if I lived in Wandsworth or Westminster? The hon. Member for Billericay wears almost as a badge of credit her membership of Westminster city council. It is the council that can sell the dead. It can cheat on the calculation of who can vote by means of the way in which the register is compiled. There are so many second homes in Westminster that the council can "adjust" the figures. The hon. Lady should come off it. She should carry her membership of Westminster city council as a badge of shame, not one of pride.

If the authority in my constituency had property of the rateable value of that in Westminster, I would not mind what the Minister did with the SSA. In Westminster, there are flats worth £100,000 or £200, 000, but in St. Helens there is not a house that is worth that much.

Mrs. Gorman : In Westminster, 60 per cent. of the population live in local authority or traditional trust housing, such as the Peabody or Guinness estates. There are relatively few high-value properties, and the rateable value that is linked to domestic rates is relatively low. Most of the high rateable values were attached to the business rate, which is now being distributed nationally. To my chagrin, it is assisting many Labour authorities to do better than I think they deserve.

Mr. Bermingham : I gave way as graciously as I could to the hon. Lady, and I have no intention of being other than gracious to her. She has demonstrated yet again that her ignorance surpasses her knowledge. Is she aware that St. Helens and other authorities pay into the business rate pool? In the old days St. Helens could use the moneys raised from its business rate, but that is no longer possible.

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