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House of Commons
Monday 16 July 1990
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
WALES
Menopausal Facilities
1. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what menopausal facilities, other than clinics, are available for women in Wales in national health service hospitals.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ian Grist) : Clinics in a range of medical specialties are the main formof provision, but detail on the services provided for menopausal women, either in clinics or otherwise, is not available centrally.
Mrs. Gorman : I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. I am sure that he will be pleased to learn that East Glamorgan hospital, in co-operation with the Amarant trust, of which I have the honour to be chairman, is about to open the first dedicated menopause clinic in Wales. It will be entirely free for the women in that area. The funds to pay the salaries of the doctor and nurse at that clinic have been raised entirely from the private sector, while the health service is providing the space and back-up facilities. Because of the great demand for the service by women in Wales, will my hon. Friend consider sponsoring training fellowships, so that the well-known Welsh gynaecologist, Dr. Peter Bowen-Simpkins, can undertake the training of more doctors who would like these facilities to be available?
Mr. Grist : I congratulate my hon. Friend on her announcement and thank her for the interest that she has been able to arouse in the subject and for her chairmanship of the trust. Training goes a little wider than the matters on which I can comment, but obviously we would consider any proposal such as that suggested by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Roy Hughes : The plea by the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) for better menopausal facilities in Wales may be laudable, but does the Minister agree that our health authorities are faced with a funding crisis and that there is pressure on them to close wards and whole hospitals? That has caused great anxiety in our local communities. Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that we are still waiting for an up-to-date list of hospital closures to be placed in the Library?
Mr. Grist : The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that health authorities in Wales are receiving record funding. They have never received so much, nor have they
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ever been able to treat so many patients. As the hon. Gentleman knows, if his health authority has any proposals on closures, it must present them in the ordinary way when they will be a matter of public record.Salmonella
2. Mr. Raffan : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to publish his Department's report on the salmonella outbreak in Flint ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Grist : The Department's report will be published as soon as possible.
Mr. Raffan : Is my hon. Friend aware of the widespread concern over the delay in the publication of the report, which the Welsh Office originally promised would be in April? Will my hon. Friend be more specific about the publishing date? Will he scotch rumours that the report does not face up to the central issue of the outbreak--the need for one person to be put in overall charge, preferably the medically qualified director of public health medicine?
Mr. Grist : We shall have to wait for the report's final version before answering the latter part of my hon. Friend's question. The time taken to publish the report was caused largely by the fact that we had to send it in draft form to Delyn borough council and Clwyd health authority, and the borough council in particular replied at considerable length. In addition, we sent out an associated draft guidance circular on public food poisoning, and we are trying to sort out the responses to it. We shall have to wait until we have managed to do those things before publication can take place. I promise my hon. Friend that we shall do it as quickly as possible.
Mr. Speaker : Mr. Rhodri Morgan. The question relates to Flint.
Mr. Morgan : It is about salmonella.
Mr. Speaker : The hon. Member had better read the question.
Mr. Morgan : I am asking a question about the importance of discovering the causes and effects of salmonella. As a further sign of how important it is, I should like to point out that an outbreak at Ely hospital, a large hospital in my constituency, has resulted in 62 cases of salmonella or suspected salmonella poisoning. I press the Minister on the urgent need for him to find out the exact causes and effects of salmonella. In the meantime, may I say to him how strongly--
Mr. Speaker : Order. I have let the hon. Gentleman get away with that, but the question was about a report on the salmonella outbreak in Flint.
Mr. Grist : I have already asked for a report on that matter. I gather that 40 patients are affected, although the hon. Gentleman mentioned 60, but obviously that can be sorted out. It is a matter for South Glamorgan health authority, but clearly it is of public interest, and I shall find out precisely what has happened.
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Water Quality
3. Mr. Michael : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of Welsh Water plc to discuss water quality.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : I met Mr. John Elfed Jones, in his capacity as chairman of the Welsh Language Board on 9 July. I look forward to meeting him and his colleagues in Welsh Water plc on 6 September.
Mr. Michael : When that meeting takes place, will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to discuss his welcome and long-overdue assurance that we shall have statutory water quality objectives for all rivers and estuaries in Wales? Will he go further and discuss with the chairman of Welsh Water how that will be paid for? Will he give an assurance that the contribution invested by the Government will continue at the same level as in the period just before privatisation?
Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman encourage the chairman of Welsh Water and the company to give up the idea of a flat-rate charge, or water poll tax as it is known, and to retain the present system at least until after the next general election, when the long-term future of the water industry will be determined?
Mr. Hunt : I understand that Welsh Water made clear exactly what its preferred method of charging was early in 1989. It was clearly laid down then and was set out in the prospectus. The hon. Member will know that Dwr Cymru has laid down an investment programme of £1.75 billion over the next 10 years. That is a record level of investment, and it will be maintained. The hon. Gentleman should remember that the last time his party was in office there was a 50 per cent. cut in investment.
Mr. Livsey : When the right hon. Gentleman next meets the chairman of Welsh Water plc, will he point out that the company is perhaps even more leaky than the Cabinet discussing German matters? One third of the water supply goes down the drain which is a cause of concern for water quality, and which badly affects Welsh Water's profits. Will he ensure that consumers will not have to pay for essential repairs but that money will come from the company's profits?
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman raises an important subject which I know exercises the mind of the chairman of Dwr Cymru and his colleagues. The amount of leakage is serious and too high. I know that it will be one of the subjects that I shall discuss with Welsh Water when I meet the chairman on 6 September. It is certainly a problem which needs to be solved.
Mr. John Marshall : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best guarantees of improvement in water quality are the National Rivers Authority and increased investment, neither of which would have taken place without the privatisation of the industry?
Mr. Hunt : I am glad that my hon. Friend mentioned that. I wish sometimes that we could have a more even-handed approach from the Opposition, and that they would pay tribute to the important reforms that we have introduced.
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Mr. Gareth Wardell : When will all untreated sewage be prohibited from entering Welsh coastal bathing waters?
Mr. Hunt : As soon as possible, all significant discharges of sewage to coastal and estuarial waters will be treated.
Mr. Wigley : Is not the Secretary of State aware of the tremendous variations in the quality of drinking water in Wales? In such circumstances, it is ridiculous for a uniform charge to be made on the pretext of the same price for the same service, when it is clearly not the same service. There will be a massive revolt against even pricing. Is not it time to nip this in the bud and stop it growing into an enormous problem?
Mr. Hunt : Welsh Water made clear its preference early in 1989. We are talking about a range of services to be supplied and the method of charging. The hon. Gentleman has overexaggerated the problems that it will cause because many people in Wales had been expecting such an announcement. It is for the director general, Mr. Byatt, to consider charging from the point of view of the consumer.
Labour Statistics
5. Mr. Martyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on levels of unemployment in Clwyd and north Wales generally.
Mr. David Hunt : Unemployment in both Clwyd and north Wales has fallen substantially. In May 1990 the unemployment rate in north Wales stood at 5.7 per cent., whereas four years ago it was 15.2 per cent. The rate in Clwyd is 4.9 per cent. whereas it was 14.7 per cent. four years ago.
Mr. Jones : I thank the Secretary of State for those figures. Leaving aside the fact that they have been fiddled something like 29 times since 1981--each time downwards, apart from once--does the Secretary of State acknowledge that if 1,200 jobs are lost at Brymbo, they will increase the figure for male unemployment by 17 per cent. in Clwyd alone? If the right hon. Gentleman is to have any credibility as Secretary of State for Wales, he must do something about Brymbo, and do it soon.
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman knows about the range of activities in relation to Brymbo. The Welsh Development Agency is, with my full support, exploring a number of options to secure the future of that important community. I wish that the Opposition would start to pay tribute to the achievements of the people of Wales in having created a success story which has meant such dramatic falls in unemployment.
Sir Anthony Meyer : Does my right hon. Friend share my astonishment that the Labour party should choose to raise that issue at this juncture? Is not it a fact that employment in Clwyd is one of the Government's most glittering success stories, and is not that due to the policies that have been pursued by three successive Secretaries of State for Wales in making the maximum use of the instruments available to them? Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is an achievement of which we should all be proud?
Mr. Hunt : I quite agree. Lord Crickhowell and my immediate predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), laid a tremendous foundation
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for the future prosperity of Wales. I sometimes wish that Opposition Members would join their colleagues in local government--Mr. Hunt : I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I sometimes wish that Labour Members would join their many colleagues in local government in working in a positive partnership--as some do--to secure the future of the people of Wales and to improve their conditions even further.
Mr. Barry Jones : With the long recess imminent, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he believes that the excellent Brymbo work force has a steelmaking future? They have fought so spiritedly and so hard for more than two months and need a word of encouragement about steelmaking from the right hon. Gentleman. We do not want him to be impotent in this instance. The right hon. Gentleman's former colleague in Cabinet, the former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, did Wales a disservice in his infamous interview with The Spectator. The right hon. Gentleman may know that there are 43 West German companies in Wales and 900 in Britain, and that one sixth of West Germany's manufacturing companies here are located in Wales. Was not the right hon. Gentleman glad to see his former Cabinet colleague go, having done such damage to Britain's interest?
Mr. Hunt : To answer the only question that falls within the limits of the tabled question, I advise the hon. Gentleman that I have had the opportunity of meeting representatives of the work force at Brymbo and have been able to assure them that I am aware of the tremendous progress that they have made, individually and collectively, in terms not only of the quality of their work, but of productivity. However, it is right not to raise hopes to a false expectation. Suffice it to say that every possible effort is being made to find a solution that secures the future of that community.
Earnings
6. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the average pay in Wales.
Mr. David Hunt : The average gross weekly pay of full-time employees on adult rates in Wales in April 1989, which is the latest date for which figures are available, was £215.90 compared with £87.20 in April 1979.
Mr. Flynn : Although we are happy to pay generous tributes to local authorities, the Welsh Office and everyone else who has encouraged the good news on employment in Wales in the past few years, we must not be blinded by the glitter referred to by the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer). Is the Secretary of State aware that what has really happened and what masks the reality is that a plague of unemployment has spread over Wales during the past decade? We have slipped to the disgraceful position in the new earnings survey to which the Secretary of State referred of having the lowest average pay of any region in Britain. Will the Secretary of State acknowledge, as his predecessor did not, that low pay does great damage? To be paid a low wage is an insult. It is demeaning and it produces a demoralised work force.
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When will the Secretary of State return us to the level in Wales of a decade ago? The poverty of unemployment has been replaced by the poverty of those in low-paid jobs.Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman did not listen to my reply. The figures that I gave show a 17.6 per cent. real-terms increase in rates of pay since 1979. I recognise that we have problems in Wales, caused by low pay in certain instances and by a low gross domestic product per head, and that we have pockets of poverty. My predecessors and I set a target of raising the quality of life throughout Wales and of spreading prosperity. That is a commitment to which I am securely wedded.
Welsh Language
7. Mr. Nicholas Bennett : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received about Welsh language teaching.
12. Mr. Alan W. Williams : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received concerning the use of the Welsh language in primary schools in Dyfed.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : We have received 27 representations about the use of the Welsh language in primary schools in Dyfed since June 1989.
Mr. Bennett : Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to encourage Welsh language and culture is through a sensible, balanced and moderate policy which does not involve compelling parents to accept it? Does he also agree that the best way of ensuring freedom of choice for my constituents would be to allow generous exemptions from compulsory Welsh in secondary schools and to look again at the categorisation policy in some primary schools in Dyfed which means that some children are immersed in Welsh at the age of five without the opportunity of learning their mother tongue of English?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The word "compulsion" is anathema to me, as it is to my hon. Friend. He must recognise that in schooling there is an element of compulsion to learn school subjects. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has consulted on exemptions from Welsh in the national curriculum. He is considering the results of that consultation and we shall make an announcement in due course. Categorisation of schools in Dyfed is primarily a matter for the local education authority.
Mr. Williams : Does the Minister agree that every child has a right to an education in its mother tongue as far as reasonably possible? Does he realise that in Dyfed since last September, when, without consulting parents, the local authority made all schools in rural areas Welsh speaking, thousands of English-speaking infants have been deprived of the right to an education in their mother tongue?
Sir Wyn Roberts : It is important to understand what happened in Dyfed. Under the Education (No. 2) Act 1986--not the Education Reform Act 1988--the local education authority is required to state its policy on secular education. I understand that consultations have been held with the governors of about 333 primary schools
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and that only two changes were proposed. There will be consultation with parents during the summer and in the early autumn.Mr. Gwilym Jones : Will my hon. Friend confirm that the row in Dyfed has more to do with county policy than with the Education (No. 2) Act or the national curriculum?
Sir Wyn Roberts : Yes, it is precisely as my hon. Friend says. The dispute arises from the county's policy, which is geared to the 1986 Act. It is an independent authority, but I understand that 27 of its members belong to the party of the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams).
Mr. Geraint Howells : Does the Minister agree that it was a great shame that the hon. Members. for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) and for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams) interfered with the teaching of Welsh in one of my schools in north Pembrokeshire? The parents of 50 out of 56 children at that school are in favour of the present policy. Will the Minister advise those two hon. Gentlemen to behave themselves and to act like statesmen?
Sir Wyn Roberts : I understand that the parents concerned in one school are the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett). Surely the House is not averse to right hon. and hon. Members stating their views or those of their constituents. We are here to try to resolve any difficulties that may arise.
Mr. Budgen : Is my hon. Friend aware that his answers about the Welsh language will cause dismay and confusion in Wolverhampton? A separate language is a clear sign of distinct racial characteristics, and my hon. Friend's answers, allied with the revelation that members of the Cabinet have been considering the distinct racial characteristics of the German race, flies in the face of all that the people of Wolverhampton have been taught for 25 years by successive Governments and by the race relations industry--that there are no such things as racial characteristics.
Sir Wyn Roberts : Listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen), I wished that his predecessor as Member of Parliament for that constituency were here, because he was a distinguished Welsh scholar. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend that linguistic differences are the same as racial differences. After all, I can proudly boast that I speak Welsh and German, and I have a smattering of English.
Family Practitioner Services
8. Mr. Coleman : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements he has made to finance the family practitioner services budgets in Wales.
Mr. Grist : More than 90 per cent. of the provision for family practitioner services is not subject to cash limiting. Cash limits for family practitioner committee administration budgets have already been issued and provisional allocations have been made in respect of a proportion of GP practice staff costs and cost-rent schemes. I hope to finalise allocations in the next few weeks, after information received from family practitioner committees has been evaluated.
Mr. Coleman : Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that there is great anxiety among medical practitioners in
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Wales over the uncertainty that the Minister outlined again this afternoon about the provision being made by the Welsh Office? Will the hon. Gentleman get the Welsh Office to move more quickly, so that doctors can be doctors, not book-keepers?Mr. Grist : Doctors in the hon. Gentleman's constituency may have encountered some problems in receiving initial allocations from their family practitioner committee, which I believe adopted a slightly different policy from some others. The inherited commitments were not available to FPCs until well into the current financial year, and they had to be dealt with first, although there is an allowance for an increased payment above the inherited commitment. Nevertheless, the fact remains that allocations arrived late as a consequence of bunching in the previous financial year.
NHS Reforms
9. Mr. Denzil Davies : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to meet the chairman of the area health authorities in Wales to discuss the Government's national health service reforms.
Mr. David Hunt : I met the chairmen of the health authorities in Wales on 10 July. I look forward to meeting them again collectively in October.
Mr. Davies : Is not the reality that few people in Wales support the so-called reforms? They will lead to the worst kind of chequebook medicine and divert real resources that should be used to heal the sick to useless exercises such as form filling and counting pills. Is it not time that those so-called reforms were abandoned?
Mr. Hunt : No, it is not. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that funding for the Welsh national health service has risen from under £500 million in 1979 to more than £1,500 million today. The reforms now seek to target those substantial resources more effectively. The right hon. Gentleman should also consider the clear objectives that ministerial colleagues and I have set the health service in Wales--I shall send him a copy if he likes. Everyone knows that we have set a target to become the best in Europe, and we are well on the way towards achieving that.
Mr. Rowlands : But if the resources are available and the policies are so successful, why are beds lying empty in hospitals in Merthyr because of lack of staff, while qualified staff are unable to get jobs and, at the same time, the area authority is employing agency staff? In the name of heaven, what has that to do with the reforms? Let us make the present system work more effectively rather than creating stupid and foolish competition within the health service.
Mr. Hunt : What we are doing is to make the present system work more effectively. No one can dispute the tremendous additional resources that have gone into the health service in Wales. I hope that even the hon. Gentleman will admit that there has been a substantial real-terms increase in the amount of resources devoted to the health service in his constituency. We must now follow the clear target that we have set, of adding years to life and quality of life to years.
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Mr. Raffan : Is my right hon. Friend aware of the widespread recognition in my constituency of the Government's record on the national health service, as seen in the renewal and upgrading of each of our four cottage or community hospitals? People recognise just how much the Government have spent compared with the previous Government who cut--slashed, indeed--public expenditure on the health service. In Delyn we recognise the need for the Government to get value for money in terms of the NHS reforms.Mr. Hunt : How right my hon. Friend is. We will always win any argument about resources, because we have put substantial, additional resources into the NHS. We now have to have a meaningful, clear policy towards which we can all work--everyone involved in the NHS. We have now set that target, and we believe that we are the first health service in Europe to do so. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) should be proud of that, and not seek to make party political points out of health.
Mr. Barry Jones : May I congratulate the Secretary of State on reversing his predecessor's decision on Project 2000? I also congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his decision not to axe the community health councils--another of his predecessor's proposals. However, will the Secretary of State now decide to give the appropriate authorities sufficient funding to enable care in the community to become a reality? I speak for the elderly and the mentally ill and in the cities and towns of Wales, it is clear that all is not well. What will he do to make care in the community a reality, not a Government slogan?
Mr. David Hunt : Obviously, an announcement will be made about the subject to which the hon. Gentleman has devoted himself. I hope that he will recognise that the point of a consultation exercise is to listen carefully to the points made. After hearing the results of the consultation, I decided not to proceed with reducing the number of community health councils.
I regard Project 2000 as a vital element in the strategy we have been debating. It is important that that project is up and running in Wales. I recently had the opportunity to meet the nurses, and I told them the importance we attach to Project 2000.
Young Farmers
10. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to meet leaders of the farming unions in Wales to discuss the problems of young entrants to the agriculture industry.
Sir Wyn Roberts : My right hon. Friend met the leaders of the unions on 27 June, although this subject was not discussed. He has also agreed to meet them and the young farmers' clubs during his visit to the Royal Welsh show next week.
Mr. Jones : I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. He and his colleagues will be aware that the number of young people engaged in agriculture has dropped significantly in recent years, and that the number of students attending colleges of agriculture has also dropped alarmingly. I am sure that the Minister will agree that we need a comprehensive range of packages for young farmers, including more starter holdings, low- interest
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loans, which are available in France, and a milk quota pool for new entrants. As a result of discussions at the Royal Welsh show will the Minister assure us that the Welsh Office will take a bold initiative on behalf of young Welsh farmers?Sir Wyn Roberts : The smallholdings, which are available for young entrants to the industry, are not a central Government responsibility, but a responsibility of the local authorities in Wales. During the five years from 1984 to March 1989, the number of smallholdings in Wales remained nearly constant--they increased in total size. A number of measures are being taken to encourage young entrants into agriculture, but some of them are dependent on suggestions from the industry. With regard to the availability of loans, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that loan subsidies are available in some continental countries, but the choice facing us was to have either subsidised loans or capital grants, and we opted for capital grants because they have advantages.
Earnings
11. Mr. Stern : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will commission a survey of incomes in the border counties of Wales.
Mr. David Hunt : No, Sir. There is already sufficient information available in the new earnings survey details.
Mr. Stern : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that the earnings survey details show a remarkable convergence in average incomes between counties on both sides of the Welsh border? In the light of that, does he agree that there might well be a case for looking again at the economic, financial and other incentives available to individuals and businesses for moving to the Welsh side of the border?
Mr. Hunt : In Avon, the relevant figure, which we were comparing before, is £241.30, and in Gloucestershire it is £230.10, as opposed to a figure in Gwent of £212.20. Therefore, I do not accept my hon. Friend's initial premise.
Dr. Thomas : Will the Secretary of State give us an assurance that, as regards Mid-Wales, the activities of the Development Board for Rural Wales will be as fully supported during his tenure as Secretary of State as they were under previous Administrations? Will he ensure that there are sufficient resources for the board's economic and social programme, in view of the potential competition from over the border in Telford?
Mr. Hunt : As it happens, I was in the hon. Gentleman's constituency yesterday with the chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales, Mr. Glyn Davies, and I was able to reassure him once again of the importance that I attach to the work of the board, and my strong commitment to its future work.
Mr. Dickens : When my right hon. Friend answered an earlier question on incomes in Wales, which related closely to this question, he gave an undertaking to the House that his first priority was to improve the quality of life for the people of Wales. We all know that, once he was appointed by the Prime Minister, the House had a good Secretary of State for Wales. If he says that he intends to improve the quality of life in Wales, he will certainly do so.
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Mr. Hunt : I thank my hon. Friend.Corlan Housing Association
13. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next proposes to meet the chairman of Tai Cymru to discuss the collapse of the Corlan housing association.
Mr. Grist : My right hon. Friend is meeting the Board of Housing for Wales tomorrow.
Mr. Morgan : Would the Under-Secretary of State agree that, following the collapse of the Corlan housing association and the Government's determination to give housing associations a greater role, which was previously occupied by council housing, the Government's housing policy in Wales is now in a shambles?
Mr. Grist : That is an extraordinary statement. I should have thought that for the hon. Gentleman's constituents, for mine and for those of other hon. Members in Wales, the hon. Gentleman should have expressed appreciation for Tai Cymru and for the Wales and West housing association for the remarkable job that they have done in safeguarding the homes of so many of our constituents.
Mr. Murphy : But does the Minister accept that housing associations, and Tai Cymru in particular, simply do not have enough money to cope with the problems of Welsh housing and that that is really a matter for Welsh local authorities? When will the Government give local authorities the right to spend their own money on building houses for people in need in Wales? When will he put someone representing local government on the board of Tai Cymru?
Mr. Grist : The hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that local authorities' gross provision for housing this year has increased by 15 per cent. and that Tai Cymru's has gone up by 42 per cent. Local authorities are allowed to use their allowable money on new build, if they so wish. For instance, one of the hon. Gentleman's neighbouring authorities, Newport, has gone into new build consistently for several years, whereas for some reason, his own local authority seems to have ceased to do so.
CHURCH COMMISSIONERS
Arts Council
31. Mr. Bowis : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what discussions the Commissioners have held with the Arts Council about Church property.
Mr. Michael Alison (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners) : None, Sir
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