House of Commons Hansard Debates for 16 Jul 1990

Mr. Bowis : May I invite my right hon. Friend to encourage the leaders of the Church to discuss with Mr. Peter Palumbo his imaginative proposals for enabling this generation to repair the major national institutions and buildings, be they theatres or churches and cathedrals, as we approach the next century? If he does so, will he suggest looking into the fabric of the buildings and the security of

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buildings so that we can avoid such intrusions as occurred at Westminster abbey recently, when stained glass windows were broken?

Mr. Alison : I note, not without sympathy, my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I draw his attention to the comments of my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside in the debate on arts and heritage in the House on 4 July at column 1094, when he expressed his enthusiasm for the idea that something special might be done to help the cathedrals and said that he proposed to address the matter in the forthcoming White Paper. My hon. Friend may therefore be pressing at an open door.

Mr. Frank Field : Would the Commissioner agree that the greatest contribution that the Church makes to the arts and the development of the arts is in the maintenance of Church buildings? In that regard, will he congratulate the Priory parish in Birkenhead on spending £1 million on restoring its parish church? Does he agree that that contrasts vividly with the dilatory way in which the diocese has dealt with another outstanding church on the other side of the river--Christ church, Bootle?

Mr. Alison : I note what the hon. Gentleman says. The £1 million that he mentioned is a staggering sum for a local parish to raise. That is in stark contrast to the other parish, and the failure of the diocese to help is manifest in what he said. The Church of England, through its various funds, spends about £70 million a year on the refurbishment and maintenance of parish churches, and that is a considerable sum.

Community Charge

32. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, how much has been spent by the Church Commissioners on assistance with community charge for archbishops, bishops, clergy and others ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Alison : An estimated £8.5 million for the year beginning 1 April. The clergy and their spouses have no domestic rates savings to offset against their personal charge liability, and the Commissioners' contribution provides some three quarters of the costs of special stipend increases to help them meet the charge. The extra tax and national insurance on those increases amounts to about £4 million per annum, which is included in the Commissioners' contribution.

Mr. Greenway : Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that clergymen, including archbishops, must take on a second home--they cannot own their main home--and are therefore required to pay the community charge twice? Will he press the Government to help them or to absolve them from payment on their second homes? On whom has he put his money for the next Archbishop of Canterbury? That is a matter of much interest.

Mr. Alison : On the second point, I certainly could not afford a stake on that hazardous betting lottery.

On my hon. Friend's main question, I share his sympathy for the predicament of clergy who are charged the standard community charge--often twice--on the second homes that they are buying. Such second homes are

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often indispensable, because the houses that they live in as clergy are tied to the job ; they must quit them when they retire. They must buy their retirement houses early to be able to afford them over the lifetime of their ministry. I hope that the Secretary of State for the Environment will take note of this point when he considers the future of the standard community charge, and I shall draw my hon. Friend's question to his attention.

Mr. Anderson : The right hon. Gentleman will know that, in an effort to reduce the injustices and absurdities of the poll tax, the Government gave a lump sum for the upkeep of Church buildings, which by definition mainly assisted the established Church. Is he aware of any means of compensating the nonconformist Churches?

Mr. Alison : The hon. Gentleman has pointed out a limitation of the substantial sum--more than £3 million--that the Government made available through English Heritage towards the support of Church buildings. He is right to say that a number of the buildings of the free Churches do not qualify for such help. I shall take careful note of his criticism of that limitation, and inquire whether anything can be done to help the free Churches. I cannot commit myself to an affirmative and positive answer.

Lambeth Palace

33. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what has been the Commissioners' contribution to the upkeep of Lambeth palace during the past five years.

Mr. Alison : As the owners of Lambeth palace, the Church Commissioners are wholly responsible for the upkeep of the buildings, which has cost some £329,000 over the past five years.

Mr. Marshall : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the people of this country need an Archbishop of Canterbury who will preach evangelical Christianity rather than socialism?

Mr. Alison : I am entirely in favour of having an archbishop who is conservative all round. If I had to accept a limitation on that, I would prefer him to be theologically conservative, whatever his politics might be.

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION

Management Consultancy

36. Mr. Allen : To ask the hon. Member for Berwick upon Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, what proposals have been put forward so far in the management consultancy exercise on the House of Commons conducted by Sir Robin Ibbs.

Mr. A. J. Beith (On behalf of the House of Commons Commission) : None, Sir. The House of Commons Commission has asked Sir Robin to offer his advice to it by the beginning of the next Session of Parliament.

Mr. Allen : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the problems of dragging this place into the 20th century so that it is a modern, professional legislature, is that its lines of accountability are rather blurred, there are few clear budgeting functions and responsibility is split between the

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Commission, the Services Committee and its sub-committees and the Department of the Environment? Will he undertake to ensure that the Ibbs report covers those matters so that we can be clear about where responsibility lies and about how to get things changed in this antiquated place?

Mr. Beith : Yes, Sir. I told the House that Sir Robin's terms of reference were to examine whether the responsibilities at present divided between the Commission, the Services Committee, the Department of the Environment and Leader of the House could be brought together

"with a view to ensuring that so far as possible there is a co-ordinated management and decision-taking structure under the control of the House".-- [ Official Report, 23 May 1990 ; Vol. 173, c. 179. ]

Mr. Soames : Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the likely findings of the Ibbs report--contrary to what was said by the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen)--is that the Palace of Westminster copes in the most remarkable manner with the obligations that are increasingly thrust upon it? Does he also agree that one of the tremendous strains on the House is imposed by a battalion of so-called research assistants, who appear to clog our proceedings greatly?

Mr. Beith : The Commission would not have appointed Sir Robin if it had thought that it knew all the answers to all the questions that he has been asked to consider. Many people contribute most effectively to making the House run well. Many work within it--not just its employees, but those who assist Members as secretaries and research assistants. We believe that the work that Sir Robin is doing may assist us to have better systems for doing those things well in the future.

Secretarial Allowances

37. Mr. Stern : To ask the hon. Member for Berwick on Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, what is the average delay between receipt of a bill for payment on behalf of hon. and right hon. Members out of the secretarial etc. allowance and its payment.

Mr. Beith : Direct payments to third parties authorised by hon. and right hon. Members to be made out of their office costs allowances are paid each week, normally on a Thursday. Depending on the day of the week on which a claim is received, the Fees Office would normally expect to make payment that week or the following week.

Mr. Stern : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that answer. I am sure that he will join me in praising the Fees Office for the work that it does with the resources at its command. Nevertheless, it sometimes has to decide which bills are to be paid this week and which are to be delayed. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is deplorable that a temporary secretary should have to wait two months to receive the salary for which she has worked, and should still be waiting for her P45?

Mr. Beith : If the hon. Gentleman has a particular case in mind, I hope that he will bring it to my notice. It is the practice of the Fees Office to seek to ensure that Members' staff, in particular, are paid promptly. The only circumstance that I can think of in which that cannot

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happen is where a claim is made for payment on the ensuing year's allowance, rather than the allowance for the current year.

Mr. Wigley : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is not an isolated incident? There has been an abundance of cases of delay in payment of allowance, of delay in implementation of an increase in salary and of Members' salaries being lost in the post and not being caught up with for months. That suggests there may be understaffing in the Fees Office, or that the system needs reviewing. One of those possibilities needs to be looked at.

Mr. Beith : Representations do not seem to confirm the widespread nature of the problem to which the hon. Gentleman has referred--least of all the problem of hon. Members not being paid. However, if cases are brought to my notice, I will certainly ensure that the Fees Office attends to them immediately.

Trade Union Side

38. Mr. Carr : To ask the hon. Member for Berwick upon Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, when he last met trade union representatives of the House of Commons staff to discuss terms and conditions of employment.

Mr. Beith : Negotiations between management and trade union representatives of House of Commons staff are delegated by the House of Commons Commission to the Board of Management and the Administration Committee, and take place within the framework of the House of Commons Whitley committee. Consequently, the Commission's involvement in negotiations is required only on significant occasions such as the breakdown of the agreed disputes procedure or the signing of recognition agreements. The last such occasion--the latter case--was on 10 March 1986.

Mr. Carr : Has the hon. Gentlman met trade union representatives of staff employed by hon. Members, especially in respect of health and safety provisions? If not, will he do so?

Mr. Beith : The Commission would certainly wish to be aware if there were problems of which representatives of staff members were aware. There are channels through which these can be brought forward. There is no current case of any dispute between the Commission and any trade union.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a problem for the Refreshment Department and that it would be better--for security reasons alone--if there were more permanent staff? Does he agree that, because of the wage scales of the refreshment staff in the restaurants, the turnover is very high, and that most people think that what those staff are paid is well below what they could earn outside? Is it not time that we paid people more, got better staff and kept them?

Mr. Beith : I fully share the hon. Gentleman's wish that the staff of the Refreshment Department should be well paid, and should have security and continuity of employment. I believe that to be in the interests of the House. Evidence to date suggests that the rates of pay in

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the Refreshment Department are in accordance with those paid outside the House, but the matter is under consideration by the Commission.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Private Bills

39. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects to introduce plans to change the private Bill procedure ; and if he will make a statement.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Sir Geoffrey Howe) : We shall look for an early opportunityto bring forward legislation to implement the proposals in our recently published consultation document, taking into account comments received in response to this consultation.

Mr. Skinner : I know that the Leader of the House has been very busy lately, what with all the problems surrounding the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and so forth, but why does he not get on with the job? When I came here 20 years ago, about 10 Bills would receive parliamentary time ; now, there are as many as 30. Will not history record that, in 1990, while the Germans were taking over the Common Market and the rest of Europe, this Tory Government were pottering about with Bills about closing pits, running racing circuits and opening crematoria?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : On the contrary. I am interested to hear that the hon. Gentleman has noticed the upsurge in the number of private Bills being introduced. If he studies them more closely, he will see that they are to do with the promotion of private enterprise in many sectors and are representative of the tremendous expansion of enterprise and activity in this country as a result of the policies of the past 10 years.

Members' Offices

40. Mr. Michael : To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has any proposals to improve safety and access for hon. Members whose offices are outside the main House of Commons building.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The existing pedestrian crossing at the south- east corner of Parliament square is to be upgraded to a controlled crossing as part of a package of measures designed to improve the movement of pedestrians and traffic in Parliament square. This has been agreed between both Houses and Westminster city council.

Mr. Michael : Before chaos descends on Parliament square and elsewhere, may I ask the Lord President whether he has noted that his previous reply suggested that the main objective of Westminster city council is to accelerate traffic? That will present increasing danger to hon. Members who have offices across the road. Even the so-called traffic refuge seems to be used more as a private motorway for motor cyclists than as a safety resort for pedestrians. It seems that no hon. Members who have offices on the other side of the road have taken part in consideration of this matter. Will the Lord President give fresh consideration to the safety of Members rather than risking by-elections, which might pose a greater danger to his party?

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Sir Geoffrey Howe : I appreciate that some hon. Members feel strongly about this matter, and I have had an opportunity to talk to the hon. Gentleman about it. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee and the appropriate Committee of the other place have looked at the problem, which has also been carefully considered by Westminster city authorities. The object of the exercise is to regulate traffic into and out of Parliament square so as to provide more effective controlled opportunities during which traffic ceases to move. As the hon. Gentleman knows, Westminster city council is investigating the possibility of an additional central refuge.

Gymnasium

41. Mr. Atkinson : To ask the Lord President of the Council when he last paid an official visit to the Westminster gymnasium.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I visited the Westminster gymnasium on Monday 16 October 1989 in course of a tour of the parliamentary estate. I did not stay long.

Mr. Atkinson : I am not suggesting that my right hon. and learned Friend should make unofficial visits to the gymnasium. Is he aware of the growing number of hon. Members who visit the gymnasium and of the long waiting list of staff who want to visit it? Will he lend his considerable weight to current discussions about transferring as soon as possible the facilities in Norman Shaw South to the greatly enlarged premises vacated by the old Cannon row police station?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact that the present accommodation is considered inadequate for the demands that are placed upon it. Relocation is being considered, and I understand that the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee has given approval in principle for the present gymnasium to be relocated in alternative accommodation within the parliamentary estate--in the place described by my hon. Friend.

Physical Education

42. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has any plans to grant-aid the cost of courses undertaken by hon. Members who pursue physical education activities ; and if he will make a statement.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have no such plans.

Mr. Greenway : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that money spent on grant-aiding hon. Members to undertake physical education would be well spent because it would make us fitter to do our demanding job, reduce the weight of many overweight Members, and make us all more efficient in pursuing our tasks?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : If my hon. Friend goes on advocating that cause with his customary zeal, I cannot see any case for spending public money on it.

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Members' Staff

43. Mr. Allen : To ask the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has for improving the provision of personal staff to hon. Members ; and if he will make a statement.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The provision of Members' personal staff is a matter for Members themselves. I have no proposals to change the financial and administrative arrangements that govern that provision.

Mr. Allen : I thank the Lord President for the work that I know he has put into setting up the review into Members' services. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ensure that the review takes account of the previous exercises which have been undertaken, in which it was suggested that hon. Members could have an office in their constituency that would be staffed by the House of Commons Commission, so that hon. Members could do their job in this place and in their constituencies to an even greater degree and in even greater depth than they can at present?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's commendation of the establishment of the Ibbs committee, which is examining administrative matters within the House generally. His supplementary question goes beyond that and would require much wider consideration by hon. Members generally. It would go beyond the present principle of financing secretarial services within the present rules.

New Members (Induction)

44. Mr. Carr : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the induction procedures for new hon. Members for a general election.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : New Members will receive, in advance of their arrival at the House, an updated briefing pack describing the services provided by Departments of the House. In addition, Heads of Department and senior Officers of the House are available for consultation. Induction in the Chamber will be in accordance with well-established procedure.

Mr. Carr : I have had the benefit of most valued advice from fellow Members since my arrival here about five weeks ago. It occurs to me that, in the event of a general election, when many new Members will be attending the House-- [Hon. Members :-- "Labour."] Yes, obviously Labour Members--the lack of any proper method of induction is an anachronism. Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman wish to consider redressing this problem?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : To sustain the quality of advice that will be given to the many Conservative Members who may enter the House after the next election, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question deserves consideration. If he wishes to raise any matters that come within his own experience, I shall be glad to examine them.

Mr. Jopling : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, in the United States, Harvard university runs a course every two years for newly elected members of the

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Congress? Will my right hon. and learned Friend give some thought to whether something of that sort might be appropriate here?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : That is a novel suggestion in the British context. As it has the authority of my right hon. Friend, I shall examine it with care.

Stationery

45. Mr. Janner : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement concerning the recyclability of paper used for the official documents of the House.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : All the paper that is provided by HMSO for official use in the House of Commons can be recycled. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee has given approval for a number of items of stationery containing recycled paper to be introduced to the House.

Mr. Janner : How many thousands of tonnes of paper are used by the House during a year, and why is not much more of it recycled, bearing in mind the fact that we should be setting an example?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I do not have the figure at my fingertips. As the hon. and learned Gentleman was told on 5 February, all the paper that is provided for official use in the House can be recycled. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Comittee is considering ways in

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which recycled material can be used more widely. The matter is under active consideration, as the hon. and learned Gentleman would wish.

European Legislation

46. Mr. Teddy Taylor : To ask the Lord President of the Council what progress has been made in implementing the revised proposals for the consideration of EEC legislation.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : Having heard the views expressed in the debate on 28 June on the Procedure Committee's report on the scrutiny of European legislation and the Government's response to it, I hope to put detailed proposals for change before the House very shortly with a view to operating the new arrangements from the start of the next Session.

Mr. Taylor : Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that, when three rather important directives on milk, meat and cadmium will have to be approved or disapproved by the House this evening in about 30 seconds, it is a bit of an insult to the democracy that many of us believe in? Does he agree that, if we go to the intergovernmental conference and agree to the control of our economy by a central bank, we may as well close this place down?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : My hon. Friend raises a wide range of questions, which go well beyond the question that I have answered. I hope that he will derive some satisfaction from the fact that the arrangement which the House in general approved will be put in place at a fairly early date.

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