House of Commons Hansard Debates for 24 Jul 1990

Mr. Blair : Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that even after the recent Cabinet discussions, and despite the chaos caused by the cuts in the youth training budget for this year, he still intends to cut next year's budget by over £120 million? What went wrong? Did the right hon. and learned Gentleman lose or did he simply not fight?

Mr. Howard : As the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, there is no chaos. As I said to his hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Employment, and as he too knows perfectly well, spending on training has increased in real terms by 60 per cent. in the past four years at a time when unemployment has fallen by 50 per cent. That is a measure of the Government's commitment to training.

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Work Permits (Hong Kong Nationals)

6. Mr. Stern : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many work permits were issued to Hong Kong nationals in the latest available year.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Jackson) : The number of work permits issued to Hong Kong nationals during the 12-month period ending on 30 June 1990 was 868.

Mr. Stern : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer, and should like to take this opportunity to congratulate him on his latest appointment. Will my hon. Friend offer some reassurance to those who are concerned about the total number of permits to be issued under the British Nationality (Hong Kong) Bill, that the issue of work permits to people coming to this country and applying for permits once here will not be used as a means of circumventing the provisions of that Bill?

Mr. Jackson : I think that I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks. The strict conditions of the main work permit scheme will not be relaxed for Hong Kong citizens. Under the main scheme, work permits will continue to be issued only to those Hong Kong nationals who are recruited by employers for employment in high-level jobs that employers are unable to fill from resident labour.

Mr. Madden : Will the Minister confirm that, come the single market, 300 million EEC nationals could--I emphasise the word "could"--seek employment in this country without the need to obtain a work permit? Against that background, does he agree that the number of work permits issued to Hong Kong nationals pales into insignificance?

Mr. Jackson : Of course, European Community nationals will be able to seek jobs in this country and British nationals will be able to seek jobs in European Community countries.

Mr. Dickens : Is my hon. Friend aware that a few years ago a lot of illegal work permits were issued from his Department? Has he been in the Department long enough to know for certain whether that practice has ceased?

Mr. Jackson : I thank my hon. Friend for that question. When I have got my feet under the desk--when I have even seen the desk--I shall look into that point.

ILO Convention III

7. Mr. Archer : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when Her Majesty's Government will ratify International Labour Organisation convention 111 on discrimination, employment and occupations.

Mr. Howard : Convention 111 was adopted by the ILO in 1958. Every United Kingdom Government since then have declined to ratify the convention, and the present Government have no plans to do so.

Mr. Archer : Are the Government proud that standards in this country are so far below those of other countries? Is the reluctance to ratify the convention possibly connected with the findings of the committee of experts that the Government are in breach of the ILO conventions that they have ratified?

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Mr. Howard : Certainly not. Convention 111 has nothing to do with standards. Indeed, the Act of Parliament that is expressly inconsistent with convention 111 is the Race Relations Act 1976, which was passed when the right hon. and learned Gentleman was Solicitor-General.

Mr. Simon Coombs : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the growing concern about the difficulty in obtaining employment that is faced by ex-offenders? Will he undertake to look at that matter with a view to improving the regime under which they seek jobs?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend raises an important matter, which gives rise to concern. I entirely accept his concern about this problem, which, with the training and enterprise councils, we are taking forward positively and realistically.

Mr. Tony Lloyd : May I congratulate the Secretary of State on his productivity today, which is an enhancement on previous Question Times? Do the Government have any difficulty with the parts of the ILO conventions on employment that allow for greater disclosure? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the concept of disclosure would mean that the report by the accident prevention unit of the Health and Safety Executive into the channel tunnel, where so many people have died and where there is clearly a real problem with management, should be published and come into the public domain, to ensure that we could have a sensible and rational debate about the quality of safety on that project?

Mr. Howard : The hon. Gentleman will know that the reports to which he refers are compiled by the HSE and rely on the full co-operation of employers. If that co-operation is to be continuing and available in future, it is important that confidentiality should apply. That is why it is unlikely that that particular report will be published, but the hon. Gentleman will know the recent action taken by the HSE in relation to the channel tunnel.

Labour Statistics

9. Mr. Boswell : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the increase in the numbers of people self-employed during 1989.

Mr. Forth : Between December 1988 and December 1989, the number of self-employed people in the United Kingdom rose by nearly 200,000 to reach 3.3 million.

Mr. Boswell : I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and congratulate him on his translation. Can he confirm that that was the 10th successive year of increase in self-employment and that the figures are now some three quarters higher than when the Government took office? Will he take it from me, from personal experience, that it is a satisfactory way of employing oneself and serving the customers?

Mr. Forth : Indeed. My hon. Friend has made the point better than I could. We know that the main hope for future wealth creation and growth in employment is precisely the growth of the self-employed sector. The Government have demonstrated that we welcome and encourage self-employment. Our track record is excellent and we intend to maintain it.

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Ms. Short : I do not suppose that the Minister has had time yet, but if he looks at the figures for the incomes of self-employed people, he will find that large numbers of them are on very low incomes. Given the stress that his Government place on

self-employment, will he consider securing better standards of protection against unemployment, sickness and low income levels for the self-employed, most of whom are extremely low-paid workers?

Mr. Forth : The answer must be no, because the great strength of the self-employed sector is precisely that most self-employed people do not want intervention, interference, or the pseudo-protection that the hon. Lady suggests. Self-employed people are vigorous, self-maintained people ; they want to get on with wealth creation and job creation unencumbered by the measures for which the hon. Lady asks.

Mr. Butler : Does my hon. Friend agree that the number of self- employed people would be much higher had the Inland Revenue not engaged in a campaign classifying entire groups of people from the self-employed to the employed?

Mr. Forth : On my first day in the job, I welcome the advice that my hon. Friend has given. He has given me a broad hint as to the direction that I might take better to discharge my responsibilities and I am most grateful to him.

Disabled People

10. Mr. Ashley : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he is taking any steps to introduce anti-discrimination legislation for disabled people.

Mr. Howard : The consultative document, "Employment and Training for People with Disabilities", which was published on 29 June, sets out various options for encouraging the employment of disabled people. I shall be considering what action to take in the light of the comments that we receive.

Mr. Ashley : Is the Secretary of State aware that good intentions and guidance may influence good employers, but will not affect bad employers who discriminate against disabled people? That is why the United States Government are enacting legislation outlawing unjustifiable discrimination. As many disabled workers in Britain suffer discrimination, why cannot we have the same legislation?

Mr. Howard : We see considerable difficulties in the way of following the path that the United States Government have chosen, but that is one of the matters on which we have consulted in the document, and I certainly should not want to prejudge the result of that consultation in responding to the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon.

Mr. Thurnham : Will my right hon. and learned Friend expand the numbers of sheltered placement schemes? Is not the success of the Government's voluntary schemes demonstrated by the fact that nearly 1 million disabled people are in jobs?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The sheltered placement schemes represent one of our great

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successes. There have been huge increases in the numbers on those schemes in the past few years and we look forward to an expansion of the schemes as resources allow.

Mr. Alfred Morris : Do not the disturbing figures for unemployment and low pay from the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys point to widespread discrimination? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the major disability organisations accept that disability can be relevant to job performance? They are asking not for deaf piano tuners or blind bus drivers, but for the outlawing of unjustifiable discrimination. Is he further aware of the findings of the Spastics Society that job applicants are 1.5 times less likely even to be interviewed if they are disabled? Will he consider the case for legislation? Does he agree that there should be an early parliamentary debate on the consultative document?

Mr. Howard : I understand the right hon. Gentleman's point and am aware of the research conducted by the Spastics Society. It has welcomed our consultative document, which canvasses a wide range of options. We shall consider the responses to that document with great care.

Part-time and Temporary Work

11. Mr. Michael Brown : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what assessment he has made of the impact upon those in low-paid employment of the European Commission's draft directives on part-time and temporary work.

Mr. Howard : The draft directives would require an extra 1.75 million low-paid employees to pay national insurance contributions. I shall shortly be issuing a consultative document asking for comments on the proposals. A copy of the document will be placed in the Library.

Mr. Brown : In the light of my right hon. and learned Friend's answer, is not it clearly the Government's duty to do everything possible to ensure that the draft directive in its present form does not become European law?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I hope that Opposition Members, who are so quick to leap to the defence of the low paid, will join us in ensuring that they will not be docked a significant proportion of their income as a consequence of that directive.

Mr. John Evans : Will the Secretary of State confirm that while it is the European Commission's policy to try to increase the wages of the low paid, it is the Tory Government's policy--especially through the privatisation programme--to reduce those wages?

Mr. Howard : The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The result of this and other draft directives emanating from the Commission would be to destroy jobs. We have an unrivalled record of job creation during the past few years, and we do not intend to have it put at risk by directives from the Commission or any other source.

Mrs. Currie : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many businesses such as those in the retail sector which rely heavily on part- time labour, especially women, are already giving pro-rata benefits, including pensions? Does he agree that that is a most welcome development

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which should be encouraged as it will mean that, in future, such staff will not be dependent on the public purse for pensions and other benefits when they retire?

Mr. Howard : As usual, there is a great deal of substance in my hon. Friend's point. These matters are best left to the workers and the employers. It is not appropriate for burdens to be imposed on employers that they may not be able to meet and which will lead to a fall in the number of jobs available.

Mr. Blair : So that the Secretary of State does not mislead the House, can he tell us the Government's policy towards the proposal that part-time workers should be given the same rights of maternity leave, so that more women can return to work as part-time employees?

Mr. Howard : That directive has not yet been published. We shall consider its text as and when it becomes available, and regard it on its merits, as we regard all the other directives that emanate from the Commission.

Mr. Bill Walker : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that in the rural parts of Scotland, where part-time and temporary work are an essential part of the local economy, there could be a devastating effect if anything was done to put such jobs in jeopardy?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is right, which is why we have approached these matters with such care and caution--apparently in contrast to the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair), who is prepared to give a warm welcome to directives that have not yet been published, and to sign a blank cheque to the Commission without knowing what costs are involved.

Disabled People

12. Mr. Wigley : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on his Department's proposals for employment services for disabled people.

Mr. Jackson : The consultative document "Employment and Training for People with Disabilities" sets out our intentions for the development of services in the 1990s. These take forward themes established in the 1980s of integration into the work force and the active commitment of employers to good practices in creating employment opportunities for people with disabilities. The document has been widely distributed and the period for consultation lasts to 31 December.

Mr. Wigley : Does the Minister accept that disabled people need legal protection at work? Has the Department studied practice in France and Germany, which operate a quota and levy system? If not, will he undertake to study it before the conclusion of the current consultations?

Mr. Jackson : Much work lies behind the consultative document to which my right hon. and learned Friend referred. We shall consider all the submissions and comments made, and they will be taken into account before decisions are taken.

Mr. Soames : I warmly welcome my hon. Friend to his new job. Will he discuss these new services with the architects responsible for designing many of our industrial

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buildings to ensure that they are far more user-friendly for disabled people, to the advantage of those who would like to employ more disabled people?

Mr. Jackson : I thank my hon. Friend for his welcoming remarks. His comments about the adaptation of buildings and the construction of new buildings that are user-friendly for disabled people are important and we shall pursue them.

Mrs. Heal : Does the Minister recognise that the review that the Department is about to undertake should not reduce the length of courses for disabled people who are on assessment, nor reduce the level of skills of the people who assess them?

Mr. Jackson : The hon. Lady makes an interesting point and I should like to consider it further with her later. This is an important debate which is not yet concluded.

Mr. Conway : When my hon. Friend has had an opportunity to catch his breath, will he consider the work of the Shropshire committee for the employment of disabled people, which does a spendid job in the county promoting the employment of disabled people in not only the municipal sector but private business? Will he take the earliest opportunity to come to Shropshire to see the excellent work that it does in encouraging placement?

Mr. Jackson : I thank my hon. Friend and I shall accept his kind invitation.

Rev. Martin Smyth : In view of some of the concerns expressed in the Department's review of July 1989, will there be any resource implications or will additional funds be made available to implement the recommendations?

Mr. Jackson : We have a good record for expenditure on supporting employment among disabled people. Last year about £400 million was spent on 225,000 people, which is an increase from expenditure of £270 million on 165,000 people. Resources are under constant review, but the record speaks for itself.

Labour Statistics

14. Mr. Amos : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the unemployment figures for the Hexham constituency for May.

Mr. Jackson : In May 1990, in the parliamentary constituency of Hexham, unemployment was 19.4 per cent. lower than a year ago.

Mr. Amos : Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government policies that have reduced unemployment in my constituency by more than half since June 1987 contrast strongly with the policies of the Labour party, which deliberately seek to undersell the region on every possible occasion by spreading doom and gloom, which simply is not true?

Mr. Jackson : I can confirm what my hon. Friend says. Unemployment in Hexham has fallen by 59.8 per cent. since 1986. I visited the north-east frequently in my former capacity at the Department of Education and Science and saw the work done by its higher and further education institutions, and I look forward to visiting the training and

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enterprise councils that are being established so effectively in the area. Much good work is being done, which is reflected in the figures.

Mr. Bell : As a former candidate in Hexham, may I ask the Minister to give the House the exact numbers, not percentages, of unemployed people in Hexham?

Mr. Jackson : I shall have to look that up. The exact number of those unemployed in Hexham is 1,036.

Tourism

15. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the total amount spent in the United Kingdom by overseas visitors in (a) 1988 and (b) 1989.

Mr. Forth : It is estimated that overseas residents spent £6,184 million in the United Kingdom during 1988 and £6,877 million during 1989.

Mr. Greenway : Does my hon. Friend accept that, welcome though that money is for our poor country, some of our institutions are being swamped by visitors? Will he use his weight to secure a second daily changing of the guard ceremony? Will he persuade my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State to put his Department's weight against pressure for the interchange for the proposed new underground service at Parliament square? This would have a detrimental effect on the4 million people who visit Westminster abbey each year. It could be, and should be, relocated to the St. James's park area.

Mr. Forth : I am disappointed that on this first occasion at the Dispatch Box in my new incarnation, I must slightly disagree with my hon. Friend. I cannot endorse his description of our country as poor. I cannot undertake to deliver him a second changing of the guard, no matter how desirable that may be. As for the location of interchanges, that is a matter which, in all conscience, I must leave to my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department of Transport, but I shall, of course, draw his points to their attention.

Mr. Cryer : Will the Minister assure the House that he will not encourage tourism and jobs in tourism at the expense of manufacturing? He will be keenly aware that some 200,000 jobs-- [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker : Order. Carry on, please.

Mr. Cryer : The hon. Gentleman will be keenly aware that some 200, 000 jobs have gone from textiles and clothing, which is a major manufacturing industry. Will the hon. Gentleman use all his efforts to ensure that the Department of Trade and Industry renegotiates the multi- fibre arrangement to ensure that textile jobs continue to survive?

Mr. Forth : May I join all my colleagues in welcoming to the Chamber my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). It is most gratifying to see him here. I see no conflict or contradiction between employment in tourism and employment in manufacturing. This country is outstandingly successful in both regards and will continue to be so. It is significant that 54,000 new jobs

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have been created in tourist-related industries over the past year alone. We can be proud of that record. We shall continue to encourage tourism and manufacturing.

Mr. Butterfill : I congratulate my hon. Friend on the action that he and other members of the Government have taken to encourage tourism, especially improved standards. This drastically contrasts with the Opposition's attitude. What representations has my hon. Friend received about the operation of the 100-day rule for business rating?

Mr. Forth : I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to everyone involved in tourism--the British Tourist Authority and tourist boards throughout the country--on doing an excellent job. They will continue to have the fullest possible support of the Government.

Having recognised the difficulties that have arisen from the 100-day rule, the Government will consult on alternatives to it. We regard it as unworkable and unfair.

Construction Sites

16. Mr. McAllion : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how he intends to improve health and safety on construction sites.

Mr. Howard : The prime legal responsibility to bring about improvements rests with the industry itself. As part of a continuing process to promote long lasting change in the industry, the Health and Safety Commission is to take forward proposals for new legislation to strengthen the legal requirements relating to the management of health and safety on construction sites.

Mr. McAllion : Why is it that in a high-risk industry such as construction--where, according to the Health and Safety Executive 90 per cent. of the deaths that occur could be prevented--there are only 20 overworked specialist construction inspectors for the whole country?

Mr. Howard : As the hon. Gentleman should know, I recently approved the Health and Safety Commission's plan for 1990-91. I look forward to attending its launch at a ceremony on Monday. The Health and Safety Executive is aware of the need to make proper arrangements to deal with monitoring and safety at construction sites.

Mr. Ian Bruce : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that however much one legislates, and however many inspectors one employs, at the end of the day it is a question of the employees and their employers taking action to protect themselves? Does he further agree that we have seen a great improvement in the way in which the major national firms in the construction industry look after their employees?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As is recognised by the more enlightened Opposition Members, it is absurd to suggest that the number of inspectors is the chief determinant of safety on construction sites.

Mr. Heffer : Does the Minister agree that what is now required is a strengthening of the legislation to deal with instances of genuine criminal activity on the part of employers who do not provide proper safety for their workers? Perhaps if some of the directors thought that

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they might have to go to prison and not just pay a miserable fine, there would be an improvement in the position.

Mr. Howard : The hon. Gentleman will know that there is concern in all quarters about some of the fines that have been imposed. One of the first things that I did on assuming my present responsibilities was to write to the chairman of the Magistrates Association asking him to examine the level of penalties that are being imposed.

PRIME MINISTER

Engagements

Mr. John Garrett : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 24 July.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher) : This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.

Mr. Garrett : The Prime Minister has now had 20 major ministerial reshuffles during her reign. As a result, 115 Ministers and Whips have been sacked or disposed of. By and large, what was wrong with them?

The Prime Minister : We have a lot of good talent on these Benches waiting to come in. My second and third team could knock the Opposition's top team into a cocked hat.

Mrs. Maureen Hicks : Can my right hon. Friend believe that, once upon a time, only half my constituents paid anything for their services? The other half were totally subsidised. Can my right hon. Friend imagine going back to the bad old days, and explain to my constituents what a rating revaluation would mean--the removal of a spending assessment providing my authority with a guideline on what it should be spending, and hence no accountability whatever?

The Prime Minister : To go back to rates would indeed be a step backward. It was the most unpopular tax that we have ever had ; it was also totally unfair. A system that permits 35 million or 36 million people to vote for local authorities and taxes only half of them is totally unfair and unaccountable. I understand that the Opposition are totally against capping local authority expenditure. That would mean higher rates, higher local authority spending and higher taxation all round.

Mr. Kinnock : Will the Prime Minister confirm that she is willing-- even eager--to sell off PowerGen at a knockdown price to Lord Hanson, another friend of the family?

The Prime Minister : As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy said yesterday, the Government have a duty to get the best deal for the taxpayer. The right hon. Gentleman takes his customary swipe at private enterprise : he cannot stand it. He would far rather have nationalisation, run by politicians who know nothing.

Mr. Kinnock : There is private enterprise, and there is looking after your friends. I think that the country can tell the difference between the two. [ Hon. Members :--

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