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Mr. Peter Hardy (Wentworth) : One argument that my hon. Friend may like to consider in support of the carry-over motion is that it will allow us the opportunity to study the fare structure used on the link as well as that used elsewhere by British Rail. My hon. Friend is familiar with many aspects of European life. A few days ago, I travelled between Paris and Brest on a superb train, part of the way it was the TGV, and the fare was two-thirds what it would be here. My hon. Friend will be aware that French railway investment is proceeding apace. I welcome the proposed investment in the Bill, but I hope that it will not be accompanied by a fares policy which is outrageously at variance with the policy across the channel.

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Mr. Morgan : The financing of the line should be fully considered at Second Reading, if the Bill gets that far. The use of the private Bill procedure by a consortium which is both private and public has financial implications. British Airports Authority was privatised recently but the money that it will use to fund the express line comes from taxes forgone on duty-free goods at Heathrow. British Airports Authority have a tax-free concession from all of us here tonight and from the 60 million people who live in this country. As people do not pay tax on the goods that they buy there, we all have to pay more tax. The British Airports Authority sells franchises for sale of duty-free goods, for example, to Hills duty-free shops which put 50 per cent. of the price back on to the duty-free goods. Payment for such franchises are made to the British Airports Authority which then has free capital to invest in projects such as the one we are discussing tonight. However, we shall not be able to discuss the financing of the link tonight, as the money used has been called private money. It is not private, it is our money--the taxpayer's money--because it is a result of taxes forgone on goods : VAT, purchase tax and other taxes on goods sold --

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Member is going a long way off the rails from the carry-over motion. He is an experienced parliamentarian and debater and I am well aware of that, but I should like him to return to the motion on the Order Paper now.

Mr. Morgan : I do not want to cross swords with you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Even before I became a Member of Parliament I was warned not to do so. I was told that you had been a Tiller girl and the emphasis was on the Attila. Therefore, I shall definitely not quarrel with you tonight.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : My hon. Friend mentioned Scotland. Everyone in Scotland to whom I have spoken about the link is in favour of it. All those people who travel from Inverness, Edinburgh and Glasgow to Heathrow hate the dreadful journey from Heathrow into central London on the Piccadilly line. However, they have serious reservations about diverting money from the Glasgow to Euston run for the construction of the express link. I have met no one in Scotland who objects to the express link--they support it wholeheartedly.

Mr. Morgan : I entirely agree that there is universal support for the line but people want it to be linked to the rail system. They are surprised at the dilatoriness with which the promoters of the Bill have considered how to join the express link with the present railway system.

I am still inclined to oppose the carry-over motion. The sponsor's threats that successful opposition to the carry-over motion would kill the chance of getting a link from central London--

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : Does my hon. Friend accept that if the Bill falls today it will put considerable pressure on the Government to sort out the private Bill procedure and they could consider bringing forward their own legislation? The promoters would be able to reintroduce the Bill in November and, provided that they had been able to satisfy all the petitioners, the Bill would go through the House as an unopposed private Bill. Such Bills can move through both Houses extremely quickly. That is one of the arguments for getting petitions sorted out before the

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promoter starts the parliamentary procedure. Therefore, that threat is not serious and if the promoters were willing to meet the wishes of the objectors, a Bill could go through Parliament quickly.

Mr. Morgan : I was about to make that point to the sponsor of the Bill. I am sure that he did not mean to threaten the House when he said that if the House exercised its constitutional right to refuse the carry- over motion because it believed that the promoters had been dilatory, that would be the end of the Heathrow Express Railway Bill. That is what I think that he said, but I am sure that he did not mean it. If it were a threat, it would be accepted in the way that all threats are accepted. It would show that the promoters had adopted a poor attitude and that they were prepared to cut off their nose to spite their face.

The House has to consider whether to exercise its right to refuse the carry -over motion. It would be open to the promoters to reintroduce the Bill in the next Session. Similarly, recommittal occasionally takes place because of changed circumstances. If the House refuses to agree to the carry-over motion, that will not be the end of the story. The promoters believe that the Bill is a gold mine, so they will reintroduce it in the next Session of Parliament. We want to be part of that gold mine ; we do not want to be second-class citizens. Between 6 million and 7 million people live in the London area ; they need a first-class service. In addition, between 6 million and 7 million people live to the west of Heathrow. They, too, want a first-class service to Heathrow, but they do not want to lose the almost first-class service to Paddington that they now enjoy. For that reason, I intend to oppose the carry-over motion.

Question put :--

The House divided : Ayes 155, Noes 10.

Division No. 321] [9.16 pm

AYES

Adley, Robert

Alexander, Richard

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Ashby, David

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Boswell, Tim

Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)

Bowis, John

Brazier, Julian

Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick

Burns, Simon

Butler, Chris

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Chapman, Sydney

Chope, Christopher

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Conway, Derek

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Currie, Mrs Edwina

Curry, David

Dalyell, Tam

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Devlin, Tim

Dixon, Don

Dorrell, Stephen

Dover, Den

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Tony

Fallon, Michael

Favell, Tony

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Fishburn, John Dudley

Flynn, Paul

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Gale, Roger

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Gill, Christopher

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Goodlad, Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorst, John

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Grist, Ian

Ground, Patrick

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hanley, Jeremy

Hardy, Peter

Harris, David

Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

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Column 1307

Haynes, Frank

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Howard, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Howells, Geraint

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Key, Robert

Kilfedder, James

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Kirkwood, Archy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

Lawrence, Ivan

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Peter

Lord, Michael

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

Maclean, David

Malins, Humfrey

Mans, Keith

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Michael, Alun

Mills, Iain

Miscampbell, Norman

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Monro, Sir Hector

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Moore, Rt Hon John

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