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Mr. Deputy Speaker : Let me now deal with the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell). I understand his concern, but I am sure that he
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would not expect me to comment on either the proceedings or the conclusions of the Committee that considered the Bill. He will have an opportunity to air the matters to which he alluded, and it will be for the House to make a decision in the light of what is said in the debate. The hon. Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Holt) may choose to comment on what is said before the end of our proceedings. 10.13 pmMr. Holt : Let me continue what I was saying some 20 minutes ago, when I moved the Third Reading.
There is no need for me to repeat in detail the arguments for the Bill, which the Committee has already scrutinised exhaustively. The Committee found, after lengthy consideration, that the promoters had made their case for the preamble. As the Bill's sponsor, I wish to put on record my thanks to the Chairman and members of the Committee for their diligence and hard work.
The promoters agreed to a number of undertakings during the Committee stage. First, and to answer the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell), the head office of the successor company will be located in Cleveland. That will be so only for as long as there is a county named Cleveland, but it is my wish and that of most of my constituents that the county name reverts to North Yorkshire as soon as possible. When that happens, the company's headquarters will remain where they are, but the county boundaries will be removed or changed. Nevertheless, the headquarters will remain on Teesside, which is the best way that we can phrase the undertaking given by the authority.
Secondly, the authority recognises the significance of this development and fully agrees that an employee share scheme be established in respect of the holding company. That aspect was the subject of considerable debate in Committee, and the promoters are happy to give an undertaking that employers will have that right. Employee involvement in the ownership of the business has always been viewed by the authority as an important factor alongside other local interests, and we want to maintain that policy.
Since privatisation began, Teesside has enjoyed a considerable upsurge in business. Only 10 days ago, albeit without a great deal of national publicity, we launched a roll-on/roll-off ferry service that will operate between Teesside and Hamburg twice a week. That will open up a great deal more of eastern Europe's market potential to Teesside and to the people living there.
Our third undertaking is that the shareholders in any employee share scheme will carry full voting rights to the successor company. We give that undertaking freely and openly, so that everyone knows that the points raised in Committee have been fully understood by the Tees and Hartlepool authority. I repeat the clear undertakings that it has given.
It is a pity that Labour Members have opposed this opportunity for Teesside, but it is not untypical. Only my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin) and I have been fighting for the steel industry on Teesside. Scottish Labour Members and my hon. Friends who represent Scottish constituencies have all been fighting for the Scottish steel industry. Whenever there have been debates or questions about the steel industry over the past few months, not one Labour Member has spoken in
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support of steel workers on Teesside. We deprecate that in the way that we deprecate the fact that Labour Members failed to support the workers in the Tees port, the developments there, and the jobs and economic well-being that will flow from that first privatisation of a port.Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) : As the hon. Gentleman has described what the promoters have done since the earlier stages of the Bill, perhaps he will give us their view of the levy that has been imposed on the proceeds of the privatisation since the Bill was first
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introduced, and which will take perhaps two thirds of the amount for the central Exchequer. Are the promoters happy about that? Does it in any way change their view of the Bill?Mr. Holt : Naturally, when one takes money from someone--and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is no different--they are not particularly happy about it. Nevertheless, the promoters are happy that they are losing only half the money. They might have lost the whole lot. The money that they retain will be reinvested in the port authority and will provide job security for the future. I again commend the Bill to the House.
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10.18 pmMr. Ted Leadbitter (Hartlepool) : One of the most significant aspects of the Bill is that the Government have not remained neutral. In the debate on the Midland Metro Bill, the Minister for Aviation and Shipping made a short intervention in which he gave no encouragement to the promoters of that Bill that they could look forward to any grant under section 56. He said that, as always with a private Bill, the Government were neutral. How the Minister dares to say that, despite the evidence of the Official Report especially in relation to this Bill, is beyond the belief of any reasonable person in the House.
Before I deal with some of the aspects proper to Third Reading, I congratulate the members of the Committee who worked exceedingly hard during hearings on the Bill dealing with the submissions by the proposer and petitioners. The petitioners and the proposer also worked exceedingly hard. Having said that, one would have thought that hon. Members should be reasonably happy but, time and again, especially in this Session, hon. Members have been increasingly worried about the private Bill procedure.
The promoters of the Midland Metro Bill, which we have just finished considering, said that they had spent about £1 million and the petitioners said that they had spent many thousands of pounds. A large amount of money has been spent on the Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority Bill. However, where the functions of the House of Commons are concerned, hon. Members with local knowledge are virtually neutralised. Four hon. Members and the Chairman sit upstairs and objectors have little impact Even though the petitioners perform their services very well, it is at great expense to the authorities and not to the satisfaction of the objectors.
Mr. Cryer : Does my hon. Friend accept that one of the difficulties with the private Bill procedure, and with this Bill in particular, is that if the Chair refuses to use his casting vote to allow any hon. Member to talk--as on this occasion--it cuts out any sound and reasonable objections which ordinary citizens are prepared to advance?
Mr. Leadbitter : That is the case.
Let us forget for one moment the presumption that because the proposers proposed the Bill they are right. The Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority has a chairman, a chief executive, a kind of secretary and 10 non-executive members. Between them, they have been dilly-dallying with the Government for the past few months. Yet hon. Members who, with great respect to those officers, have greater experience of the area have a right to be heard, too. It should not be implied that hon. Members are not competent to have an input into the argument when we have had many more years experience and service in the area than any of those people, including the hon. Members for Langbaurgh (Mr. Holt) and for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin). Let us make that clear.
What is an important objection? We will come to the contradictions in a minute. Mr. Bartlett, the counsel for the proposers, was so anxious to make a good case that from the moment he made his submission in Committee he referred to section 12(3) of the Tees and Hartlepools Port Authority Act 1966 and pointed out that responsibilities for the care and maintenance of the port area were a constraint. He did not want them. That was his first argument.
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Mr. Hackney, the chief executive of the authority, was not running on quite the same track as his secretary. In Committee he referred to those responsibilities and said that a special clause protected Hartlepool. I fail to see how a senior officer can say that a section will look after the interests of the infrastructure, of the breakwater and the piers, when counsel in Committee says that Hartlepool wants none of those constraints. He used the word "constraint" as a reason for promoting the private Bill. If the Bill is passed, we know what will happen to the protection of the port. The history of the last 10 years shows that questions have been raised about invoking the responsibilities enshrined in section 12(3) of the Act.Hartlepool borough council's petition refers, as a matter of primary importance, to section 12. It is worth reading what the petition says :
"Section 12(3) of the Act of 1966 states that the authority shall take such steps from time to time as may be necessary for the maintenance of so much of the harbour as comprises the existing port of Hartlepool in a condition not less efficient, safe and commodious than it is at the passing of this Act.' "
I know how important that section is because I was the Member who had it written into the Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority Bill of 1966. The clause was devised by me, the then town clerk of Hartlepool borough council, and the parliamentary commissioners. The clause had legal backing and it was accepted by the House. Since then, however, the Tees and Hartlepool port authority has been reticent about invoking it and in the case of this Bill has said that it is a constraint. On page 12 of its proof of evidence to the Committee, referring to the section, Hartlepool borough council says : "The importance of the port and harbour to the well being of the community has long been recognised by the council. Whilst the port authority indicate that the proposed legislation would preserve the burden of that duty upon the operating company, none the less the council suspect that should other interests or priorities demand, the discharge of that duty will be diminished under the proposed arrangements."
That is the truth of the matter.
Another truth is that 10 years ago Hartlepool borough council did not support that section of the 1966 Act. There was a long-drawn-out argument about the protection of the breakwater. Contrary to what is said in its proof of evidence, Hartlepool borough council did not recognise its importance for a long time, but it has come round to recognising it now.
Mr. Skinner : Why did it not recognise it then?
Mr. Leadbitter : It was suffering from incompetent advice. Other legal advisers are helping us now. In Committee, the port's chief executive said that the section is a protection for Hartlepool but to make out a case for the private Bill counsel said that it was a constraint. Men who are supposed to be honourable and intellectually attuned are contradicting each other. We do not have what I call truth in the House of Commons. That is not unusual. I have been here for a quarter of a century. During that time I have found that it is easier to pursue a lie than to find the truth. The only problem is that when one does find the truth certain people get very angry about it.
Mr. Skinner : My hon. Friend plays a leading role in this place. He is on the Chairmen's Panel. Has he noticed that during the past few days the well-paid parliamentary agents who play such a significant role in private Bills, including the Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority Bill,
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have got it wrong? Those tin-pot agents, if I may so describe them, introduced a Bill last week. Much to the embarrassment of Mr. Deputy Speaker, who, as always, was trying manfully to get it through, my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes) discovered that the parliamentary agents, with their fat wallets, paid for by the taxpayer, had left out clause 6 which had gone through the House of Lords on the nod, not being spoken on by anyone. The result in the House of Commons was like a Monty Python show, talking about clause 6 when it was not there.I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter) has scanned the Bill because I heard him speaking on it once before. I hope he has looked at it carefully, because there is a chance that something is missing. These agents, who are similar to the ones who advised Hartlepool council 10 years ago, may well have cocked it up again. My hon. Friend should be ultra-careful about this as there is some chance that we can stop the whole show.
Mr. Leadbitter : It is possible that we could still do that. My hon. Friend mentions legal fallibilities.
Mr. Skinner : That is one way of putting it. No wonder my hon. Friend is on the Chairmen's Panel.
Mr. Cryer : No wonder my hon. Friend smoked out Blunt.
Mr. Leadbitter : It was harder to smoke out Blunt than it was to smoke out the promoters of this Bill.
I turn to the saga of the 50 per cent. sale of the proceeds, which is going into the pockets--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order : I hope that the hon. Gentleman will avoid turning his back on the Chair. I seem to be missing his jests.
Mr. Leadbitter : This part of the story is at least fascinating. We shall take with it the saga of the enabling legislation.
I do not know whether the chief executive was a delegate at the Tory party conference, but we were receiving communications from Bournemouth from time to time. I thought that the Secretary of State for Transport had enough trouble without him being there. The chief executive's statements were outdone by the more robust language of the secretary of Tees and Hartlepool port authority, a man who suffers from a lack of vocabulary and, at times, politeness.
Mr. Cryer : One of the questions that we continually raise during proceedings on private Bills is the involvement of the Government. My hon. Friend said that an executive was at the Conservative party conference. I wonder if he could give us further information about that as it implies seedy collaboration between members of the Conservative party and others to get the Bill through. That would be quite outside Standing Orders and the honour of this ancient and honourable House.
Mr. Leadbitter : It is more than a coincidence that we have this private Bill and the chief executive in Bournemouth. The chief executive is not an old-age
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pensioner. He is not thinking of retiring there, but he may say that it was a pure accident that the conference took place while he was visiting that very interesting town.I have looked through some of the epistles, the communique s and their dates. On 14 May 1990, during a debate on the Clyde Port Authority Bill, it was indicated that 50 per cent. of the sale of the shares would be paid to the Exchequer whenever a trust port was converted into a company. The percentage was agreed as a broad figure for all trust ports. The House should remember that. The chief executive--through his secretary, of course --claimed that the 50 per cent. left was a gain. He gave the impression that he had negotiated the figure, but the Official Report gives the lie to that. Some of these officials are so imbecilic that they think that Members of Parliament cannot read.
Mr. Beith : The situation is worse than that which the hon. Gentleman has described. On 3 July, in the Standing Committee on the Finance Bill, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury admitted in answer to me that the levy would amount to a tax charge of 67.5 per cent. He put it another way. He said that that
"means a cash injection of 32.5 per cent."--[ Official Report, Standing Committee E, 3 July 1990 ; c. 568.]
In other words, what the taxman leaves us is a cash injection. By July, the Government had made it clear that, with the combined effect of the levy and capital gains tax, they expected to get more than two thirds of the proceeds.
Mr. Leadbitter : I accept that observation. The hon. Gentleman expressed his concern in my constituency, and I took note of that. The hon. Gentleman jumped to July. I want to go back to June. On 27 June 1990, the Clyde port authority sent a letter to worthy hon. Members, such as myself, and said :
"We share the Government's view"--
that means that the Government have expressed a view for the authority to share--
"on privatisation".
At the end of the letter, the authority adds :
"This Bill is with the full backing and support of the Government."
The Minister for Aviation and Shipping must not sit there naughtily, feeling protected and pretending neutrality. We know what is being done by his mate in a higher office. It is a sham, even if he calls it democracy.
On 15 October 1990, we come back to our worthy secretary of the Tees and Hartlepool port authority. That man has had more mention in the House of Commons than in the whole of the rest of his public life--
Mr. Skinner : You don't like him, do you Ted?
Mr. Leadbitter : I feel disposed to limit my feelings of friendship.
The secretary of the Tees and Hartlepool port authority wrote : "We have also won the return of the 50 per cent. proceeds." He had nothing to do with it--he was told what to do. Later on, the chief executive said that it came as no surprise to him. They cannot even work together. As I said, when we reach privatisation in four months' time, we shall watch their salaries go up. But they have not even worked for it. They are not even in harmony with each other. On 5 October, the chief executive of the Tees and Hartlepool port authority, in an enclosure to the management and staff, wrote :
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"Delay on this Bill could lose us our lead and the benefit of the return to the business of 50 per cent. of the proceeds."What wishful thinking. He is saying, "Do not oppose the Bill. Do not go through the democratic process because if there is a delay we shall lose our lead and run the risk of not getting our 50 per cent." Suppose that someone pinches half my money. If I then say that what I have left is a gain, I ought to be seeking psychiatric treatment. On 9 October 1990, the secretary of the Tees and Hartlepool port authority, on the announcement of the enabling legislation, said this :
"The situation that we foresaw has now materialised."
I think that he was a bit tired ; he had been overworked and had not read the Official Report. Way back in March 1988, long before the Tees and Hartlepool port authority thought about a private Bill, the Secretary of State, in a talk to the ports federation, had made it clear that he saw advantages in privatisation. He then said that he was very disappointed by the lack of response. There is no real upsurge of support for privatisation and he has been bludgeoning on since then.
The proof of the pudding is always in the eating. The chief executive answered the counsel for the petitioners about when he became disenchanted with the present constitution. The House will be pleased to know that this Bill reached this House having received no consultation. It was not challenged in Committee and the counsel for the petitioners pointed out bluntly in the last sitting that there had been no consultation. The board agreed the Bill's contents in June 1989 and the Bill reached the Private Bill Office just before the closing date of 27 November. The summer recess split the board's agreeing the Bill and its appearance in the Private Bill Office, so consultation as we understand it did not take place. Only one or two little representations which had already been agreed upon were discussed.
The secretary of the board claims that the board foresaw, but it foresaw nothing. That is how the Bill's promoters have been twisting the words around. Whether they like it or not, they must accept that the petitioners have addressed the facts. They have not tried to distort or to misrepresent. The latter is characteristic of the promoters. The House should be warned that, when we have an opportunity to discuss the new private Bill procedures, never again will we find ourselves in a position of incurring great expense as with public or enabling Bills.
The House is more than likely to grant the Bill its Third Reading and to pass it to the other place, but the procedure leaves a bad taste in the mouth because a handful of people have determined the course of events. They have tried to suggest to hon. Members and to the petitioners that they have behaved properly, but they have not. Mr. Bartlett was counsel for the petitioners in the Committee upstairs. On 15 May 1990 he said :
"So it is by this means that the proceeds of the sale are returned to the holding company and become available for investment in the expansion of the business. Those will be reduced on the basis of the current indications of the Government by some 50 per cent. Taxation might reduce it further, but it is those proceeds which become available as a result of selling the shares."
The whole of the property, all the assets and the shares would be sold and instead of all the proceeds going back to the port as they should, the Government are going to take half. Under the present system, the port's revenues go into port expansion programmes or to reduce charges. The
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hon. Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Holt) referred to one of the port authority's new ventures. That has been implemented under the present legislation, not under the new proposals.The promoters knew about the 50 per cent. beforehand. They did not foresee it--it was common knowledge. Rather than include it in the Bill where we could see it, they slipped it in during progress on the Finance Bill so we might not see it. That shows how devious the whole process was.
Mr. Skinner : It is a pity they did not slip something into the Finance Act 1981, which produced the massive tax loophole allowing people like Lady Porter and one or two others to invest in offshore companies and make a big fat killing. Has my hon. Friend seen page 17 of the minutes of evidence? I think that it refers to the bloke to whom my hon. Friend has been referring. The minutes of evidence state :
"Mr. Hackney himself admits that the shareholders of the holding company may or may not be concerned with the welfare of Teesside. If they are to behave as logical, reasonable investors would behave, they will be concerned for their profits."
There it is in a nutshell. They are saying, "We are not worried about the people of Teesside and Hartlepool." All they are concerned about is making money. Hon. Members have argued about the private Bill many times. In this case--I should like my hon. Friend to comment on it--the Government have been promoting the idea. They are not content with just walking through the Lobby and supporting the Bill. They have actually promoted it. There has been a sinister collaboration with people like Hackney and the others, together with the Government, who have now got the Bill through on the private Bill procedure. In reality, it should have been part of their programme if they had really believed in it.
Mr. Leadbitter : Now moving to the 50 per cent. robbery--
Mr. Leadbitter : --the enabling proposals that were announced in Bournemouth, the conference town, the Secretary of State and the chief executive of the port authority have now agreed on one thing. Mr. Hackney said :
"Our belief is that the Government announcement of an enabling Bill of trust ports"
that is, to privatise--
"would not have happened without our Bill, and the money that was spent on it has been very well spent to that end."
That is not the truth. There is a word for that in the House of Commons.
Mr. Leadbitter : An hon. Member would not get away with it because it is not the truth. I consider it to be utter impertinence to write to a Member of Parliament or to anybody and say that this enabling proposal would not have existed without the Bill. I now give another quotation to which I referred on Second Reading on 15 Marcxh.
Mr. Cryer : I remember it well.
Mr. Leadbitter : I remember it well, too. I refer to the report of the minutes of evidence of the first sitting of the Committee on 15 May 1990. Mr. Hackney himself exposed the real position. He said :
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"We were also advised"--that is, by the Department of Transport--"that the Government would not be providing enabling legislation at that time because of problems with legislation in the House."
There was not sufficient time.
Good observers in the House know full well that it has already been announced in the House what things will not come under privatisation in this Parliament. One is British Rail, but there is another. Nothing was mentioned about enabling proposals for the ports. That was on the cards--it has been on the cards for a long time and it has had to stand in the queue, but whatever else is said, once that queue was moved aside everybody knew that the enabling proposals would come to the House. It was not because of the private Bill that the Secretary of State is bringing forward the measures. More than that, I wonder what kind of Secretary of State would have the notion, even if it were possible, to promise enabling legislation for all ports on the basis of one port. It is a non sequitur in that sense and it is an untruth in another.
I now refer quickly to matters in contrast--for example, the port authority of Clyde--in this argument. At least the authority gave a raw, frank admission that its Bill is what the Secretary of State for Transport wanted and what the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to take. That is the difference in the conduct of the Clyde port authority and the Tees and Hartlepool port authority. We must look at the management. As I said, the board is made up of non-executive members. In other words, they are not in the driving seat. At present there are 10, selected by the Secretary of State. The day-to-day management and the authority of the board is left to the management team.
I should like to give a little caveat here. On 15 March I talked about the success of the port. On page 17 of the minutes of the Committee, Mr. Hackney states :
"In 1967 the authority broke even before taxation and employed 2, 177 people. It handled just short of £12 million. In 1989 the profit before exceptional items and tax was £11 million. The labour force was dropped to 828 and the tonnage increased to 38 million tonnes." That shows the streamlining--the economic health--of the port under existing legislation.
Of course, the first step towards privatisation was to get rid of the dock labour scheme. It was a case of "Get rid of these expensive lads--every one of them", and it was done. I feel strongly about the success of the port and that makes it harder to see it run into the more risky waters of private enterprise.
Mr. Skinner : My hon. Friend has said that the abolition of the dock labour scheme was the first step towards these proposals. My hon. Friend is a member of the Chairmen's Panel and has been a Member of the House for 26 years. He is saying that, on the one hand, the Government introduced a Bill of their own in the Queen's Speech to get rid of the dock labour scheme, while at the same time they have encouraged and connived with others to use the private Bill procedure to get the second phase of the scheme through.
The Government have a majority of 150 over us and they are tipping off the private Bill people and saying, "Look here, we don't want to stuff our programme with too much, but since we have a majority of 150 and we do not need everybody here to pass a private Bill, you
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smuggle it in that way ; we'll give you a hand and get the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State for the Environment to go through the Lobby at 10, 11 or 12 o'clock at night to support it." That is a corrupt practice of a Government with a big majority who are using the private Bill procedure to tell the nation that this is a private matter when, in fact, it is an addendum to the Government's manifesto and programme. The whole thing stinks. What my hon. Friend says has been said by us many times previously--in relation to Bills relating to British Coal and to Associated British Ports. My hon. Friend has added something new by being able to show that the abandonment of the dock labour scheme is part and parcel of the private Bill procedure--Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd) : Order. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to make a speech? If so, I am sure that he will be able to catch my eye eventually.
Mr. Skinner rose --
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. Mr. Leadbitter has the Floor.
Mr. Leadbitter : The shadow Secretary of State for Bolsover did it in one. He got it right.
Madam Deputy Speaker : It took him a long time to do it.
Mr. Leadbitter : Having covered the success of the port in that thumbnail sketch, I now remind the House that, apart from the constraints that Mr. Bartlett wanted to remove because they were a costly item in the port's financial affairs, he mentioned two other reasons for the Bill. One was getting ready for 1992, but I will not waste time on that--
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