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Mr. Terry Davis : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks, but he is slightly mistaken. I was talking not only about the councillors in that ward but about all the councillors in my constituency--a far greater number.

Mr. Turner : I am sorry. I accept that a number of councillors in my hon. Friend's constituency oppose the line of route.

Mr. Davis : All of them.

Mr. Turner : I accept that my hon. Friend was talking about all of them, including the MEP.

I repeat, however, that, even before going out to consultation, the local authority had taken a democratic look at the proposals. My hon. Friend will accept that the starting point for the planning that went into that part of the route--like every other part--was set by the local authority and involved members and officers of that authority.

Mr. Davis : My hon. Friend makes a fair point. He is absolutely right that officers of the city council and some city councillors considered routes in secrecy, behind closed doors. But they never discussed their proposals with the local councillors representing my ward or, indeed, nearby wards. The chief executive of the city council has told me that he regarded it as Centro's responsibility, rather than that of the city council, to consult the local people and local councillors. Centro says that it was regarded as the city council's responsibility. That is little comfort ; I am not bothered about that. They are both to blame and they have learnt their lesson. The trouble is that they are not willing to repair the damage that they have done to my constituents.

Mr. Turner : I hear what my hon. Friend says, but I rest my case. Wolverhampton, which dealt with the first phase and the original Bill, was certainly involved right from the outset. Elected

representatives were fully involved in the process.

We know the arguments advanced by Centro and we know that my hon. Friend opposes them. The first concerns cost. We can reasonably accept the argument that there is a difference in cost between the route proposed by the residents and the route proposed in the Bill. The second concerns the movement of people, and the promoters' route would touch far more people than would the alternative FORCE proposal for a route further north of the M6. Strong arguments have been advanced, but not one of them has been accepted by my hon. Friend the Member for Hodge Hill or, as he rightly says, by the residents of his area who feel that there is a preferable route available. I understand my hon. Friend's argument about his constituency and those who are directly affected on that relatively small piece of track which is the bone of contention. However, when we consider that we are talking about 150 miles of track, it must be common sense that within the whole of that area some people will be unhappy and dissatisfied by the proposed route. Although I accept my hon. Friend's argument and that he is concerned about the route, we must decide in favour of this carry- over motion. I know that hon. Members are anxious to get into the Lobby and vote for this majestic concept.

The people in the black country and in Birmingham have had 200 years of industrial revolution. So far, before

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today, we have failed to develop the proper links which should be developed between the black country, Birmingham and the west midlands. I want to share with hon. Members a homily and a simple truth about the black country. If a courting couple travel from Tividale to Bradley, people still come out of their homes to look at them. That is how our people have been divided for 200 years between the black country, Birmingham and the west midlands as a whole. The canal network in the black country was designed for goods, not people. The local train service was demolished by Mr. Beeching. Now the buses churn out pollution. This new metro can take us into the 21st century. For social, environmental and transport developments, let us go metro tonight. Let us pass the motion and consider the Bill in the next Session. We can then give the people in our conurbation the kind of transport that they will need as we move into the 21st century.

9.32 pm

Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark (Birmingham, Selly Oak) : I understand some of the things which have been said, particularly by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis). If there are changes, we experience the NIMBY principle--not in my bloody back yard, you don't--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. That is coarse language which is uncharacteristic of the hon. Gentleman. I hope that he will not use it again.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark : I will not use it again. However, perhaps I should refer to the FLIMBY principle which I take to mean, "Not in my flipping back yard, you don't."

We all agree that there should be change. On occasions we all agree that a road is needed here, an airport or a railway there. I will not repeat what I said earlier because of your sensitivities, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but when those needs arise people say, "Not in our flipping back yard, you don't." That is what change involves. Someone's flipping back yard is going to be affected.

It is a little like sacrifice. People often say that we must all make sacrifices. I agree with sacrifice, so long as it starts from the chap next door but one. The hon. Member for Hodge Hill rightly said that the proposal may well be good for greater Birmingham or the greater west midlands, but like the rest of us he is elected to represent his constituency. The hon. Gentleman must accept, however, that in our own individual patches unpleasant things sometimes have to happen for the greater good of our constituencies or our areas.

Mr. Terry Davis : Will the hon. Gentleman explain who would be adversely affected by the alternative route put forward by my constituents?

Mr. Beaumont-Dark : Somebody is always adversely affected by any change in anything.

Mr. Davis : The hon. Gentleman has come into the debate late and has therefore not had the benefit of a full exposition of the matter. Will he now anwer the question that I put to him directly? He has accused my constituents of taking the NIMBY attitude. That has been said by Mr. Parker, the spokesman for Centro, but it has been denied

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by my constituents many times. I am not seeking to move this into someone else's backyard--I am seeking to move it where there are no backyards.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark : Of course that point will be dealt with, as all such things are, by every so-called expert. I state a general principle. All hon. Members have seen such things happen. I saw it happen in Selly Oak with the Bristol rail. Somebody sometimes wants to widen one side instead of the other. One side says, "Great," and the other side says, "No."

As a general agreement has been obtained, can the House decide on the broad principle that nothing in this life will satisfy everyone? As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Bevan) and others have said, we must make progress. If we do not make progress now, all progress will come to an end. I hope that the hon. Member for Hodge Hill will agree with that view.

Question put :--

The House divided : Ayes 183, Noes 8.

Division No. 326] [9.36 pm

AYES

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkins, Robert

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Baldry, Tony

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Beggs, Roy

Beith, A. J.

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Benyon, W.

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Body, Sir Richard

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)

Bowis, John

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Brazier, Julian

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Buckley, George J.

Budgen, Nicholas

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butcher, John

Butler, Chris

Butterfill, John

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carrington, Matthew

Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

Chapman, Sydney

Chope, Christopher

Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon John

Cormack, Patrick

Couchman, James

Crowther, Stan

Cummings, John

Dalyell, Tam

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Devlin, Tim

Dixon, Don

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dykes, Hugh

Fallon, Michael

Faulds, Andrew

Fearn, Ronald

Fishburn, John Dudley

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Foster, Derek

Freeman, Roger

Fry, Peter

Galbraith, Sam

Gale, Roger

George, Bruce

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Goodlad, Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gordon, Mildred

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Grist, Ian

Hague, William

Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)

Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

Harris, David

Hayward, Robert

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Holt, Richard

Howard, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Ingram, Adam

Jack, Michael

Jackson, Robert

Jessel, Toby

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Key, Robert

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Kirkwood, Archy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knox, David

Lambie, David

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Lang, Ian

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