House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Oct 1990

Mr. Parkinson : As one compliment deserves another, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on not being elected Opposition Chief Whip. The figures may disappoint him, but I should like him to listen to them. Since we took over in 1979, £6,000 million has been invested in British Rail. A further £4,000 million is to be invested in the next three years, so cheer up--good news is on the way, the service will get better and the hon. Gentleman will become redundant.

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DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Bolton

61. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he next expects to visit Bolton.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Kenneth Baker) : I have it in mind to visit Bolton next year, but no plans have been drawn up at present.

Mr. Thurnham : When my right hon. Friend visits Bolton, will he meet the villagers of Affetside? They would be pleased if details of any future local government boundary changes were pinned up in the pub so that they might know about them.

Mr. Baker : My hon. Friend will be aware that my responsibilities as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster do not extend to the Boundary Commission for England. I understand that the commission has made a proposal which would involve 600 people being transferred from my hon. Friend's constituency of Bolton, North-East to the constituency of Bury, North. As is usual in these matters, strong feelings are aroused. I am sure that the commission will take note of the local reactions to its proposals and the reasons for them, both historical and practical. I would hope that any changes will be taken only after careful consideration and widespread consultation.

Dr. Cunningham : When the Chancellor next goes to the north-west, will he apologise to the head teachers of independent schools and to the parents of children on assisted places schemes for inviting the head teachers, in a letter from Conservative central office, to break a confidence and identify, for the use of the Conservative party, the names and addresses of parents who have children on assisted places schemes? Is not that a flagrant breach of the confidentiality associated with these matters and should not he withdraw the letter now?

Mr. Baker : What I have done is within the powers of any person to do. I wanted to highlight for the parents who send their children to private schools the fact that the Labour Opposition wish to withdraw the assisted places scheme, which benefits about 27,000 pupils. That would be extremely damaging. The Labour party wants to withdraw help from those pupils who deserve it most and to undermine private schools altogether. It wishes to restrict choice by abolishing grant-maintained schools and city technology schools. That is the negative education policy of the Labour party.

Official Transport

62. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how much has been spent by his office on his official transport in the current financial year.

Mr. Kenneth Baker : In the current financial year my office has spent £21,060 on official transport.

Mr. Banks : The Chancellor will know that in the past year he spent £34,000 on official transport. How can he possibly justify that expenditure when he has said that he spends about a quarter of his time on official Duchy business? Is not this an example of the taxpayer subsidising the right hon. Gentleman's increasingly ineffective activities as chairman of the Conservative party? Would

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not it be better for Conservative central office to reimburse the money that has been taken? Finally, if the right hon. Gentleman intends to continue using his official car as chairman of the Conservative party, may I suggest that he has a commode inserted in the back seat?

Mr. Baker : All my Conservative party engagements around the country are paid for by Conservative central office. An official car is provided for my official business as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and as a member of the Cabinet. There is no greater expert on official transport than the hon. Gentleman, who is a former chairman of the Greater London Council and had an official car which I am sure he did not use for party purposes.

Mr. Yeo : Will my right hon. Friend devote as much official time as possible during the next year to visiting schools and warning those parents currently taking advantage of the assisted places scheme about the Opposition's intentions?

Mr. Baker : I should be delighted to do so, not only in my capacity as a Cabinet Minister, but as chairman of the Conservative party. I am surprised that the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) raised the issue at all, as it exposes how negative the Opposition's education policy is and how damaging it will be. They talk about choice for parents, but all that they believe in is reducing choice for parents.

Magistrates

63. Mr. Pike : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he proposes to visit north-east Lancashire to discuss the appointment of magistrates.

Mr. Kenneth Baker : I recently discussed the matter at a meeting of the south Sefton advisory committee on Merseyside. I have no plans to visit at present.

Mr. Pike : Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the growing concern of many people in Lancashire and the north-west that magistrates benches are increasingly less representative of the communities that they serve? Is not it time that they were made more representative of local communities?

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that many magistrates are becoming increasingly concerned about having to apply the poll tax legislation and liability orders against people in the north-west who they know cannot afford to pay the poll tax?

Mr. Baker : The hon. Gentleman's first point raised a serious matter. I am concerned that there should be proper representation on the magistrates bench, covering all parties and all strata of society. My advisers and I are anxious to ensure that that happens. With regard to payment of the community charge and the role of the magistracy, I remind the hon. Gentleman that according to a survey last week by the Institute of Revenues, Rating and Valuation, district councils received payment from 87 per cent. of those required to pay the community charge. The figure would be higher if some Labour Members of Parliament, Members of the European Parliament and councillors would also pay up. I understand that five Labour councillors in Burnley are refusing to pay, and that only last week a Member of the European Parliament had to be ordered by Accrington

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magistrates to pay his fair share towards the cost of local services. Many people in Burnley are paid a great deal less than a Member of the European Parliament, yet they have to subsidise his non-payment.

As for Labour Members of Parliament who joined the poll tax demonstration in London last Saturday, the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) claims that there is no support in the Labour party for non-payment campaigns, so which is the true voice of the Labour party--the empty rhetoric of the Opposition Front Bench or the rabble-rousing activities of Labour Members of Parliament on Saturday?

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

Commission Meetings

66. Mr. Allen : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission when he next expects the Public Accounts Commission to meet.

Sir Peter Hordern (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission) : No date has yet been fixed for the next meeting of the Commission, but I expect that it will take place in December.

Mr. Allen : Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the tremendous work of Nottinghamshire county council in attracting industry and other bodies, including the Inland Revenue, English Heritage and Toray, to relocate to its area? At the next meeting of the Public Accounts Commission, will the hon. Gentleman discuss the possibility of the National Audit Office also seeking to relocate in the Nottinghamshire county council area?

Sir Peter Hordern : The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that the Comptroller and Auditor-General has it in mind to move some of the functions of the National Audit Office to regional offices. I understand that he is planning to do so to some considerable extent to the north of England, and also to the west country, but I cannot help the hon. Gentleman as to whether any relocation will be to Nottinghamshire.

Mr. Latham : When considering salaries paid at the National Audit Office, will my hon. Friend and the commission bear in mind that it is probably the only branch of the public service that makes a profit for the taxpayer by identifying instances of waste and inefficiency in other Departments?

Mr. Hordern : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that comment. The National Audit Office has to recruit from the market generally and cannot be tied to a rigid salary structure imposed by anyone, even the Government.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : I recognise the right of journalists to publish any material that comes their way if they believe publication to be in the public interest, but will the Public Accounts Commission nevertheless wholeheartedly condemn the activities of hon. Members and others who leak the reports of Select Committees and undermine the work of those Committees?

Mr. Hordern : So far as I know, there has been no leak of any kind from the Public Accounts Commission. Perhaps our affairs are not considered sufficiently important or newsworthy. In any event, I think that this is probably a matter for the Committee of Privileges.

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DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Written Questions

64. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many written questions he has answered since he last answered questions in the Chamber.

Mr. Kenneth Baker : Three, Sir.

Mr. Winnick : That does not seem very many. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he appears to have become the Prime Minister's fall guy in all the Government's present difficulties? Is he happy with that role, or does he fear that it will not be long before Mr. Ingham starts a whispering campaign against him? Many of the right hon. Gentleman's former Cabinet colleagues know full well how Mr. Ingham works in this regard.

Mr. Baker : The hon. Gentleman should know that I am very happy in my work, and that I intend to preside over a campaign in which he will lose his seat in Walsall, North just as he lost his seat in Croydon, North.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Bicycle Mileage Allowance

67. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will bring forward proposals for a bicycle mileage allowance for Members.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Sir Geoffrey Howe) : The Government have no such plans at the moment. However, both logic and common sense give some support to the idea. I shall therefore arrange for it to be examined.

Mr. Tony Banks : That is an excellent idea. In view of the cost of the Chancellor of the Duchy's car, perhaps the Lord President should suggest that he take up bicycling--although, knowing his right hon. Friend, it would probably be a tandem with a member of the working class struggling to pedal at the front.

I am grateful to the Lord President for his answer. He must be aware that civil servants receive the allowance, so it is surely appropriate that Members of Parliament should receive it as well. Bicycling is both health- giving and environmentally friendly. I can see the Lord President now, cycling around London like the clappers with his clips and tin helmet. It will, indeed, be a good thing for Members of Parliament to receive this allowance.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The hon. Gentleman is deploying his rhetoric against an open door. I have noted that civil servants enjoy the allowance and that to grant it to Members of Parliament would be an environmentally- friendly gesture. Only a handful of our colleagues currently take advantage of the two-wheeled vehicle, but no doubt more will follow their example if I ensure that the matter is examined.

Mr. Dickens : Is it possible that the hon. Member for Newham, North- West (Mr. Banks) has forgotten his days as chairman of the GLC, when he drove in a palatial car at the ratepayer's expense? Perhaps he now wants to pedal a cycle at the taxpayer's expense.

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Sir Geoffrey Howe : Perhaps it is as a consequence of being deprived of his former office that the hon. Gentleman has adopted a more modest means of transport.

Dr. Cunningham : While we are discussing allowances, may I ask whether the Leader of the House saw yesterday's "Insight" articles about the avoidance of taxation--on a huge scale--by very wealthy members of society? As he is responsible for the legislative programme, will he at least hint that this loophole will be closed in the Queen's Speech?

Mr. Speaker : Order. It would take a considerable stretch of the imagination to relate that question to the subject of mileage allowances for right hon. and hon. Members.

New Parliamentary Building

68. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council how many offices, bathrooms, bedrooms, cloakrooms, shops and recreational facilities are expected to be available in the new parliamentary building ; when phase 1 will be available to hon. Members ; and if he will make a statement.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The main facilities in phase 1 will include offices for 60 right hon. and hon. Members and office space for 100 secretaries, a substantial part of the Library, catering facilities, and two small shops. Present forecasts suggest that right hon. and hon. Members will be able to move into phase 1 not later than the next summer recess. The House should before long have an opportunity to consider the initial design brief for phase 2. The New Building Sub-Committee is drawing up proposals, which it hopes to place before us during the forthcoming Session.

Mr. Greenway : Can my right hon. and learned Friend say what the two small shops are to sell? Will they include House of Commons goods such as humbugs and fudge? As chairman of the parliamentary friends of cycling, may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to reconsider the absence of any recreational facilities as part of phase 1? If we cannot have an indoor hockey pitch, perhaps there could be squash courts, to keep right hon. and hon. Members fit for cycling--or is my right hon. and learned Friend afraid that that might lead to too many by-elections?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : My hon. Friend always makes imaginative suggestions on these occasions. He will recollect that the gymnasium is being redeveloped, is to re-open in larger premises as a consequence of changes made during the Recess.

As to the retail facilities, phase 1 will include a bookshop selling Her Majesty's Stationery Office publications and other items of parliamentary interest. That bookshop will be open to the public, as will two small shops in Bridge street. There will also be a kiosk and shop inside the phase 1 building selling light refreshments, groceries and other miscellaneous goods.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Will the Leader of the House give an undertaking that the new building will include suitable accommodation for the catering staff? It is disgraceful that the House of Commons, which makes laws about health

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and safety, should itself increasingly neglect its own staff, who are not provided with suitable accommodation in which to change or take rest periods.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I cannot promise the hon. Lady that phase 1 will address that particular problem. The specifications were drawn up a number of years ago, and there is a limit to the flexibility that they can embody. I agree with the hon. Lady that phase 2 should take account of considerations such as those that she has mentioned. They and many similar propositions deserve more sympathetic and effective consideration in the management of this place. That is one reason why the Commission was pleased to order the Robin Ibbs review of the entire way we manage these premises.

Mr. Holt : Will my right hon. and learned Friend note that security in this building and in the whole Palace of Westminster is very poor? If we are to have shops and other amenities which will be open to the public, will he ensure that there are ample opportunities to screen everyone who uses them and everything that they take in and out with them? Only thus can we ensure that there is no repeat of the kind of recent incident whose victim was the subject of a memorial service that some of us attended earlier today.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I appreciate that my hon. Friend is concerned about security matters, for very understandable reasons and you, Mr. Speaker, are aware that it is a topic that is never far from the minds of those of us who have responsibility for such matters. The shops that will be open to the public will not be part of these premises as such. The amenities that will be available to right hon. and hon. Members and to staff will be designed to satisfy a long and frequently expressed need to meet certain minimal requirements at all hours of the day and night. However, even in respect of those facilities, we shall take account of security considerations.

Register of Members' Interests

69. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he will propose new rules for the Register of Members' Interests ; and if he will make a statement.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I myself have no proposals to make at this stage.

The Select Committee on Members' Interests has, however, undertaken to report in the near future on the resolutions agreed by the Defence Committee in relation to the declaration of interests of Chairmen and members of Select Committees ; to conduct a broader review of registration and the declaration of interests ; and to consider whether to define the requirements of the register more precisely, so that Members' interpretations of the rules would be more consistent and their entries more comprehensible.

Mr. Skinner : Is not the parliamentary register far weaker than that applying to local authority councillors? Is not it a scandal that, at a time when 19 Tory ex-Cabinet Ministers in the past 11 years have picked up 59 directorships between them, we do not have an appropriate register to deal with the matter? Surely it is time that we had not just a register but a system of full-time Members of Parliament with one job and one job only? It seems strange to many people outside the House

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that Members of Parliament cannot get by on £26,000 per year when many old age pensioners and others do not have two ha'pennies to rub together.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : As so often, the hon. Gentleman starts off by referring to a topic with which the House as a whole is concerned--the management and consideration of Members' interests, which is being considered in the ways that I have described--but goes on to destroy what began as a tolerable case by putting his points so intemperately as to lose any credibility whatever.

Recycled Paper

70. Mr. Tredinnick : To ask the Lord President of the Council, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) of 16 July, Official Report, columns 430-31, if he will make a statement on the progress of the experiment in the use of recycled paper for House of Commons stationery.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : A selection of recycled stationery is now available from the Serjeant at Arms stores. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee will

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be considering the results of this experiment in due course. My own view is that we should seek to proceed on the assumption that recycled paper will become the norm.

Mr. Tredinnick : I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for his reply. I am sure that the decision to offer recycled paper has been widely welcomed in the country because it shows that the House is setting a good example. Will he give an assurance to both sides of the House that the stationery will be available in all sizes so that the experiment can be conducted properly? Can he give some indication of hon. Members' response to this initiative and can he say what initial demand appears to be?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have some sympathy with my hon. Friend's point of view. He will recollect that the decision taken by the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee on 21 May this year was to proceed on an experimental basis along the lines that I have described. As I said in my original reply, I should like us to proceed to a more general basis than that, but we shall have to await the first report on the experiment. I shall take into account the matters that my hon. Friend has raised.

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