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the road to being an independent quango-- something which I recall the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) rightly deprecated when we considered similar amendments in the House--

Mrs. Ray Michie : I am surprised that the Minister chooses to refer to what Lord Ross did in the other place. He should know that here in the House we are dealing with what the Bill does and how it will affect our constituencies. I am surprised that he is not prepared graciously to accept our support. Regardless of what was said in the other place, in my maiden speech in the House in 1987 I called for a separate Scottish NCC. There is nothing new in that.

Mr. Trippier : I respected and admired the hon. Lady for calling for it. I was impressed by her foresight. I was simply saying that there seems to be a great deal of difference between the Liberal party in this House and the Liberal party stance in the upper House. I have already taken the opportunity to compliment the three Liberal Democrat Members on the speeches that they have made in this debate. Resources and staffing have been raised on three occasions. On resources, I reaffirm the commitment that we have given throughout, that the new agencies will have resources fully adequate to fulfil their functions. I cannot anticipate what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will say in the statement on public expenditure next month, but I remind Opposition Members of the Government's record in raising the budget of the NCC by 150 per cent. in real terms since 1979, and that of the Countryside Commission by 112 per cent. over the same period. So the Government have every right to be believed when they say that they will provide sufficient funding for the new agencies.

Since the Inbucon report was prepared for the NCC, detailed government studies about the staffing of the country agencies, the needs of the JNCC, the scope for common services and information technology requirements have come to fruition. That matter was fully covered by Lady Blatch in the upper House. I do not propose to rehearse the arguments again. I am confident that the agencies will have sufficient staff to take over from the NCC and the Countryside Commission next April and that, once established, they will rapidly prove how unfounded are the Opposition's fears that the agencies will not be worthy successors of the existing agencies.

Mr. Dalyell : When is the chief officer likely to be appointed to the JNCC? Without a chief officer, how can it possibly be in place by April? Does the Minister accept that it takes £9.78 million even to stand still, and that extra money will be needed in the statement for any enhancement?

Mr. Trippier : That latter point may well turn out to be right. I am happy to confirm that it will take approximately £10 million to deal with the reorganisation. I have said that publicly in the past. The figure has been confirmed by Sir William Wilkinson. I do not demur from anything that I have said in the past. It is a substantial figure, but the principal part of the reorganisation costs will deliver better conservation at local level. That is the purpose of this part of the Bill.

The whole House should take this opportunity of sending our best wishes to the new chairman Lord Cranbrook, Mr. Magnus Magnusson, Mr. Michael

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Griffith and Professor Holliday. The Government do not have to prove their commitment to nature conservation. When the Opposition were last in office, they cut the budget of the NCC in real terms. The truth is that they do not care. They are the environmental vandals. I ask the House to support the Government.

Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made : --

The House divided : Ayes 186 ; Noes 307.

Division No. 345] [7.28 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Anderson, Donald

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

Ashton, Joe

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Beckett, Margaret

Bell, Stuart

Bellotti, David

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

Bermingham, Gerald

Bidwell, Sydney

Blair, Tony

Blunkett, David

Boateng, Paul

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

Buckley, George J.

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Cartwright, John

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clay, Bob

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Cohen, Harry

Coleman, Donald

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbett, Robin

Cousins, Jim

Cox, Tom

Crowther, Stan

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Dr John

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

Dewar, Donald

Dobson, Frank

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Eastham, Ken

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Faulds, Andrew

Fearn, Ronald

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

Fisher, Mark

Flannery, Martin

Flynn, Paul

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Foster, Derek

Foulkes, George

Fraser, John

Fyfe, Maria

Galloway, George

Garrett, John (Norwich South)

Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)

George, Bruce

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Gordon, Mildred

Gould, Bryan

Graham, Thomas

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Hardy, Peter

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Henderson, Doug

Hinchliffe, David

Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Home Robertson, John

Hood, Jimmy

Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Illsley, Eric

Ingram, Adam

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Lambie, David

Lamond, James

Leighton, Ron

Lewis, Terry

Litherland, Robert

Livingstone, Ken

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

McAllion, John

McAvoy, Thomas

McFall, John

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

McKelvey, William

McLeish, Henry

McWilliam, John

Madden, Max

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Marek, Dr John

Marshall, David (Shettleston)

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Martlew, Eric

Meacher, Michael

Meale, Alan

Michael, Alun

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Morgan, Rhodri

Morley, Elliot

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Mowlam, Marjorie

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