| Previous Section | Home Page |
Column 1063
street. People have come to see me about it, but there is little that I can do at present. We simply do not have the powers to deal with such problems.I am sorry to reel off a list of complaints, but I do it deliberately to bring home to us all how much people in our constituencies are suffering. Another road in my constituency, Leucha road, is inhabited almost entirely by elderly people. In one or two cases a person had died or moved out and the council has moved in young people who have young people's habits. Young and old people's habits often do not work well together. Those young people get up to what young people get up to. No one complains about that except in the context of an elderly neighbourhood. The elderly people object strongly to being woken up perhaps at midnight by noise, racket and laughing. A simple event such as a car turning up, the doors banging and people shouting at midnight is objectionable to people who probably have been in bed for a couple of hours already.
Still on the subject of noise, members of Central parade residents association in Hoe street have been much disturbed by building work in the bank underneath. Much of the work seems to have been carried out without proper consultation of the residents and consideration of their interests.
Burglar alarms and car alarms have already been mentioned. I introduced a ten-minute Bill on such alarms. I had a good response from the British Security Industry Association, which does not like to see the industry brought into disrepute by burglar alarms ringing all weekend, disturbing an entire neighbourhood. Again, I am delighted that the Government have made proposals on the problem. I should like to reinforce what has been said about
limiting--possibly physically--the amount of noise that a radio, television or music centre can make. We all know instances of thoroughly selfish people who simply do not care about the effect that playing their music has on other people at perhaps 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock in the morning with the volume turned up as loud as possible.
I should not object in the slightest if the music were, say a wonderful Bruckner symphony. I should object strongly to rap music being played at 110 decibels. But that is not the point. As has already been said, the point is that one man's like is another man's dislike. We must all learn to live together and we tend to live cheek by jowl. We should all have regard to the effect that our activities may have on our neighbours.
Flat conversions have been mentioned. I am a chartered surveyor and before I was elected I practised as a surveyor. Various authorities used to make it a condition of planning permission to convert a house into flats that suitable sound insulation be placed between the floors. But often that sound insulation consisted merely of a layer of rock wool, or something similar, which was wholly inadequate. Part of the problem is that the structure of many such houses was not originally designed with the possibility in mind that the house might be converted into separate living units. That is a great problem. It might be solved by making the building regulations far more stringent and enforcing planning conditions on conversions.
Column 1064
From the town I want to turn briefly to the countryside. I have a country background, although I represent an urban constituency. I wish to draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Minister to horrible things now opening up in the countryside called byways open to all traffic, or BOATs for short. The trouble with BOATs is that anyone using any form of wheeled motorised transport can use them. Once quiet country paths are now used by people on motor bikes or those four-wheel drive machines. As long as at some time the path was used by wheeled traffic--it may have been used by ox carts in medieval times or by Boadicea and her chariot--it can be used by wheeled traffic today. Many country people strongly resent the intrusion into the countryside of those motor bikes and four-wheel drive vehicles. The matter needs to be examined. The vehicles shatter the peace and quiet of the countryside and upset the people who live there. People feel that an unpleasant manifestation of urban habits has come into their midst.Police powers have been mentioned. That is the way forward. It is absolutely essential that police be given the powers to deal with noise, particularly at night when people are disturbed by noisy parties or whatever. Most people are reasonable and if a party goes on until 11 pm or midnight they will not object, but say, "Fair enough." The problem is when that happens night after night and weekend after weekend. Sometimes a party goes on throughout an entire weekend. The police need to have the power to go to the place where the noise is coming from and to say, "Stop it now or arrests will be made." Noise nuisance should be made a criminal offence.
Guy Fawkes night will shortly be upon us. Already we have heard the first whizzes and bangs, and already I have had the first letters of complaint from my constituents. My plea is that people be considerate in their use of fireworks and think of others in the area, especially old people, cats and dogs that are terrified by the noises. I ask people to enjoy their Guy Fawkes night, but to think of the effects of fireworks on people and animals.
8.50 pm
Mr. Michael Irvine (Ipswich) : The hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) referred to the suffering that noise nuisance causes ordinary people. He was right to put it so strongly. Suffering is indeed caused. For ordinary families with anti-social neighbours noise nuisance is frequently not just a matter of disturbance, upset and inconvenience. It goes well beyond that. In all too many cases it is a matter of real suffering.
There are two main categories of neighbourhood noise nuisance. The first is late-night parties, which can destroy the night's rest for an entire street. A wild, unrestrained party with amplified music with a heavy beat blasting out into the night constitutes social hooliganism on a massive scale. It is essential that the law provides an effective and speedy means of dealing with such parties. It is not just a matter of dealing with them in the courts several months later. It is a matter of dealing with them speedily and effectively then and there, putting an end to the nuisance that very night. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Hicks) identified with precision the weakness in the law. If the noise is great, if one can get hold of an environmental health officer and bring him to the scene of the party and if that officer is prepared to serve an
Column 1065
abatement notice, fine. It may be that the nuisance will stop and the party will come to an end. The weakness in the law lies in what happens when the abatement notice is not complied with and the party continues. Although a summons may be issued and two months later a fine--I am afraid all too often a derisory fine--may be levied in the magistrates court, the residents' entitlement to peace, sleep and quiet enjoyment of their properties is lost for that night. That weakness in the law could and should be remedied at an early stage. The second type of neighbourhood noise is on a rather lower scale and is inflicted by anti- social neighbours on individual families. It is not nearly so obvious as the late-night party variety. The banging of doors, shouting, fighting, dogs being allowed to bark late into the night without any attempt to restrain them, the playing of loud music and banging on walls--general loutish and anti-social behaviour--does not affect the whole street, but makes life a misery for the individual families who are affected. That nuisance is much more difficult to deal with precisely because it affects only one or perhaps two familes, whereas late-night parties affect and affront the whole street.The nuisance from late-night parties is obvious, and usually there are plenty of witnesses. It is a different matter with lower-level noise nuisance, but such noise nuisance is just as intensely stressful to those directly affected. How is it best dealt with? The key is a responsive and sympathetic attitude to complainants by local authorities--housing departments and environmental health departments alike--the police and the courts.
Earlier this year in Ipswich the chairmen of two local residents' associations took an initiative for which they deserve great credit. Mrs. Patricia Young-Al Salih of the Triangle Residents Association and Lewis Brown of the Whitton Residents Association called a meeting to which they invited representatives of the police, the housing department and the environmental health department, the leader of the council and the Member of Parliament. It achieved two objects. It was useful in bringing home to the local authority and the police both the strength of feeling that action should be taken to deal with late-night parties and lower-level neighbourhood noise nuisance, and also in stressing how important it was to receive complaints sympathetically.
One must realise that it is harder for an individual family to make a complaint against a neighbour than it is if there is a big group of complainants. It is much more invidious. People naturally do not like to make a complaint against their neighbours, as they fear that it could make matters worse. They may be afraid of intimidation and verbal and even physical violence.
If people complain and their complaint is reasonable and sensible, it is essential that local authorities and the police respond sympathetically. Once it gets around that local authorities and the police are prepared to respond sympathetically and to take a firm line against anti-social neighbours, there is much less likelihood of such anti-social behaviour. The main cause of such behaviour is the fact that it is often allowed to go unpunished and unrestrained. If local authorities, the police and local residents' associations make it clear through publicity on local radio, television and the newspapers that they are prepared to take a firm line and to press matters to a
Column 1066
conclusion in the courts, that in itself is a substantial and effective deterrent to anti-social behaviour and noise nuisance. It is not just a matter of a more sympathetic approach by local authorities or of filling the gaps in legislation where they exist, important though that is. What is also essential is the more effective and efficient use by local authorities and housing associations of the existing powers available to them. There should be a much greater readiness to use injunctions as a means of restraining neighbourhood noise. Judges are often reluctant to grant possession orders and it often takes a long time to obtain them. The great merit of an injunction is that one can apply for and obtain it speedily. One can go to the courts on the day after the anti- social behaviour in question and obtain an injunction simply by establishing a reasonable prima facie case.Because injunctions do not themselves carry the terrible punishment contained in a possession order, judges are, by and large, much more willing to grant them. Should an injunction that has been granted by a judge be breached, it becomes not just a matter between neighbours or a local authority or housing association and tenant ; it is a contempt of court and the court has an array of powers to deal with such a breach.
Mr. Summerson : I am not a lawyer, but I am extremely interested in what my hon. Friend said about injunctions. Can my hon. Friend tell me what sort of evidence a court would require before an injunction was granted? Once it has been granted, how long can an injunction run?
Mr. Irvine : On the assumption that there is a clause in the tenancy agreement between the anti-social tenant and the local authority or housing association that forbids excessive noise, anti-social behaviour and disruption of one kind or another, the court has the power to grant an injunction if prima facie that clause has been breached. Even when there is no contractual relationship--for example, if a family's enjoyment of its property is adversely affected by a neighbour's noise--there is a remedy at common law in nuisance. An individual can get an injunction in support of the common law remedy of nuisance.
Mr. Roger Gale (Thanet, North) : But at what cost?
Mr. Irvine : My hon. Friend asks, "At what cost?" That is a fair point. By and large, when problems occur on housing association estates and council estates, it is better for the association or the council to take action to keep the tenant who is indulging in anti-social behaviour to the strict conditions of his or her lease. The problem is that some councils and housing associations are unwilling to act. There should be a much greater readiness to grant legal aid, if necessary on an emergency basis, to a tenant who is unable to finance the necessary action to restrain a neighbour. My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson) touched on another matter of which local authorities and housing associations should take much more account. A great deal of nuisance, upset and distress could be prevented by the sensitive and sensible allocation of tenancies. It is asking for trouble to put young people into a block of flats where the tenants are, in the main, elderly or infirm. That is asking for trouble, but all too often it is done. My remarks have mainly addressed the
Column 1067
problem of neighbourhood noise, which affects a substantial number of people and causes much distress and suffering.I shall now take up some of the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir J. Stanley), who represents a constituency that stands to be adversely affected by the regular movement at night of high-speed freight trains coming through from the channel tunnel. I have a similar constituency problem. Just down river from Ipswich is the great port of Felixstowe, which 25 years ago was a very small port and mainly a seaside town. It was connected to Ipswich and the main railway line by a single-track, old-fashioned railway, originally built to take seaside holidaymakers down to the beaches.
During the past 25 years, Felixstowe has expanded as a port to a phenomenal extent and is now the largest container port in the United Kingdom, with a 24-hour operation. During the night, massive freight trains, usually drawn by two diesel engines and often a mile or a mile and a half in length, make their way along that line which is, for the greater part, still only single track. The vibration from these trains has caused damage to property and the noise has caused considerable upset and disturbed the night's sleep of numerous residents in Ipswich who live close to the line.
To British Rail's credit, under pressure it agreed to make improvements. It imposed specially low speed limits because it was found that, when a 20 mph speed limit was effectively enforced, it reduced not only the noise but the vibration.
Earlier this year, along an important segment of the line where people were being badly affected by noise, British Rail re-laid the ballast, making it much deeper. In particular, British Rail laid continuous welded track along a key section of the line, resulting in a considerable improvement. But there is still, for all that, considerable noise, which is why I listened sympathetically to the representations made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling and why I ask the Minister to take careful note of his arguments.
9.11 pm
Mr. Roger Gale (Thanet, North) : I shall not detain the House for long. Almost every speaker I have listened to in this most interesting debate has touched on the same subject. The core of the problem is that there is no law against unpleasant neighbours--it matters not whether they be in rural villages, urban areas, or the inner cities, or whether they are ethnic neighbours. I listened with great interest and some dismay to my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) who sought to make an ethnic point rather than commenting on the real problem, which is that of neighbourhood noise in general.
The police with whom we all deal day by day share with us two or three recurring and intractable problems. The most intractable is that caused by unpleasant and unneighbourly neighbours. I doubt whether there is an hon. Member who does not receive at least half a dozen--many hon. Members receive far more--complaints a year from neighbours about neighbours.
I listened with great care to my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Irvine) who commented on the
Column 1068
inadvisability of putting young people in flats predominantly designated for the elderly. As a wry aside I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson), "Yes, because the children would not get any sleep." That was said only half cynically because a pleasant young couple with a young baby in my constituency are having their lives made extremely difficult by an elderly neighbour who does not like them or their baby and who takes delight in turning up the television far too loudly. The House must get to grips with this difficult problem because there are not yet enough powers on the statute book to handle it.Not many weeks ago the Department published a wonderful book--£24.50, and cheap at the price--entitled "The Common Inheritance". I do not mean to be mocking when I call it a wonderful book. It contains an environmental strategy of which the House and the country should be proud, but, as with most strategies, there are weaknesses in it. One of the saddest paragraphs in this otherwise mainly magnificent volume is paragraph 16.38. I apologise for having been kept by constituency business from part of this debate, and if the paragraph has been quoted before I can only say that perhaps repetition will do no harm. The paragraph reads :
"The Government is not persuaded that it would be right to make noise nuisance an immediate criminal offence".
I understand that thinking ; it is a draconian step to bring the criminal law into this sort of arena. But unfortunately the paragraph continues :
"or to give the police further powers to control noise. Noise nuisance is often complex and subjective".
The paragraph continues :
"While noise can be very annoying, criminalisation is a very heavy stick to take to it."
So it would appear that we are not going to do a great deal about the problem. Paragraph 16.41 states :
"Local authorities have powers to serve noise abatement notices and prosecute if necessary. If this does not resolve the problem they can take further court proceedings. The current maximum penalty for non-compliance with an abatement notice is £2,000."
When can the Minister last recall a penalty of even 2,000p being imposed for such an offence? The average environmental health officer is far too busy generally--I would not say too busy tracing stray unlicensed dogs--to get to grips with such problems. In Margate in my constituency, he does not have the time or the staff to investigate vastly over-occupied houses.With the best will in the world he certainly does not have the time, energy or people to monitor the sort of day-to-day complaint that is received by every hon. Member. If the environmental health officer had the resources, how would he get his evidence? He does his best. When I write on behalf of a constituent, he sends that constituent or me a form for the constituent to complete. He asks the person to keep a note of the date and time of every occurrence of nuisance so that a pattern can be built up and, in time, the council can send somebody round to see the neighbour. Usually within five minutes of a council officer leaving, one neighbour is banging on the other neighbour's door threatening to thump him for complaining to the council.
I said that this was an intractable problem and I do not pretend to have any answers--never mind all the answers. This is not a partisan issue because every constituency suffers from it and the House has to address it. Unpleasant
Column 1069
neighbours make other people's lives a misery. We are not talking just about the young or about members of the ethnic community playing ghetto blasters.My daughter is 18 and occasionally plays music over the room in which I work. She sometimes plays it rather more loudly than I would like. It will not surprise anyone to know that I have the same altercations with her that most parents have with their children. If such circumstances arise in my domestic environment and, I suspect, in the domestic environments of most hon. Members, it is not entirely surprising that it happens in every street and in every town and village.
There comes a time when nuisance becomes pervasive, excessive and sometimes deliberate. Sometimes the constant revving of motor bikes late at night is done deliberately to annoy a neighbour. At times the constant loud playing of the television or record player is deliberate in order to make other people's lives a misery. At that point, the environmental health officer or the police or both working together should have the powers they need to go in and do something about it.
In my time in the House I have had many complaints but I cannot think of one that has been satisfactorily resolved other than by moving one person, usually the innocent party, out of his home. Invariably, the new neighbour is complaining in less than six months that he is suffering from the same nuisance.
I urge the Minister to take another long, hard look at the problem, and especially at the one weak paragraph in this otherwise proud document "The Common Inheritance" to see whether there is any way of giving the police and the environmental health officers greater power.
I did not come to the Chamber to talk about neighbourhood nuisance at all. I wanted to raise another issue affecting a relatively small number of people nationwide. However, to those people the issue has great importance. It may surprise the House to know that the issue is agricultural nuisance.
I invite the House to picture a scene early on a Sunday midsummer's morning in a Kentish village. Dawn is breaking, so it is perhaps only half-past three. The first bird song is beginning to come across an otherwise still audio horizon. The village is asleep and nothing moves. Suddenly, in the midst of this peace, comes the crash of a gun, and then another and another. There is one every three minutes and only when the church bells start to drown out the noise and the ambient noise takes over can people ignore the guns. These guns are the audible bird scarers used by some fruit farmers.
I live in a rural community and have experienced this, as have a significant number of people living in similar agricultural communities. As with so many other agricultural practices, it is unfortunately the inconsiderate few who cause the problems for the many. Those living in rural areas--particularly those who live, as I do, surrounded by fruit--and who have the benefit of them, understand that birds attack soft fruit, top fruit and young vegetables such as cabbages and peas when they have just been planted. A flock of pigeons, for example, can have a devastating effect on a newly planted field of young vegetables. I have seen farmers in tears as a result of such devastation. Therefore, I do not question the need to use, on occasion, some mechanism or device to scare away birds. A considerable amount of research has gone into this. As a result of the growth in the problem, an organisation
Column 1070
with the unlikely name of BANG--Birdscarers Anti-Nuisance Group--was formed. It quickly established a sizable nationwide membership consisting of people who discovered that they had a common cause for complaint. That was five or six years ago, and, sadly, these people still have cause for complaint because, with the best will in the world, not a lot has been done.We have useful meetings with extremely courteous members of the Minister's staff. The civil servants whom the members of BANG have met have been considerate, sympathetic and attentive. We have been waiting for a byelaw or code, which has had the longest gestation period of any document for which I have ever waited. We have seen drafts of this code and we have been invited to comment on it. I hope and believe that members of this organisation have commented intelligently, responsibly and fairly. They have taken no direct action, despite considerable provocation. The organisation has discouraged people from doing what they are most minded to do, which is to go out and take a sledgehammer to the devices.
While we should like to find an entirely separate solution to the problem of bird strikes on fruit and vegetables, and to obviate the need for the use of audible bird scarers, I for one--I do not speak for everybody, because some would like an outright and immediate ban--accept that there are occasions when brief use of audible bird scarers may be justified. However, some farmers overlook what has become known as the dinner gong effect. I have watched pigeons sitting on a telegraph wire waiting for the first gun to go off and then flying towards it because that tells them where the food is. These birds are not stupid. A bird scarer works effectively for about three days. After that, the dinner gong effect comes into play and birds fly towards it, rather than away from it, and they get used to it.
But that in itself is not the problem. The problem is that the code of practice provides that the bird scarer should be used once every 15 minutes. That sounds all right--one bang every 15 minutes within reasonable hours from, for example, 6 am rather than 3.30 am, first light, until not too late at night, say up to 10 pm. It must be realised, however, that that is once every 15 minutes for each machine. If there are three guns in a cherry orchard and each one is firing once every 15 minutes, my miserable mathematics tells me that a gun will fire once every five minutes. If there are another three guns in the next field and a further three in the field next to that, which is owned by another farmer, the effect is rather like that which I described when I began my speech. It is something akin to the battle of the Somme.
I have described a problem which is small in the sense that it does not effect many people, but for those whom it does affect, like those who are affected by the sort of noise nuisance that we have been discussing throughout the evening, it is an extremely serious problem which makes life intolerable.
I know that my hon. Friend the Minister is sympathetic to the complaint that I have highlighted. I know that he and the civil servants in the Department care and that they want to find a solution. I must say, however, that, as with other problems, the time for research and consultation is over. We need a code of practice that takes full account of the number of machines within a given area as well as times and frequency of use. We need also a model byelaw to back it up. Without that, the environmental health officer, never mind the police, will stand not the remotest chance of controlling not the responsible many, who use
Column 1071
the machines properly, but the irresponsible few. Those few, like the other causers of disturbance of whom we have heard, make others' lives a misery. I look to my hon. Friend the Minister for some comfort for those who I know are concerned. I hope that he will be able to offer it to me this evening.9.28 pm
Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey) : I apologise to the House for not being here for the earlier part of the debate. I wish to make only two brief points as it would not be fair in the circumstances to seek to make a longer contribution. I have not heard the speeches of the Minister and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms. Walley) or those of other colleagues. I wish to speak only about neighbour nuisance and vehicle noise.
Neighbour nuisance is a great and intractable problem and is often worse for the victim than for the Member. On some occasions I have been both the victim and the Member. There is a specific problem for tenants--as a matter of law, it is not faced by those who are landlords. If there is a complaint by one tenant about another who is next door or in the same block, a barrier against the taking of action is that the complainant will often find that it is necessary to give evidence in court in due course. He may feel inhibited by the expectation of a threat being meted out by the person against whom he is complaining. An obvious example is that of elderly single people complaining about younger and much more physically active and able people. We have all had such circumstances brought to our attention.
When a landlord is required contractually to provide quiet enjoyment for a tenant, would it not be possible to oblige the landlord to ensure that that requirement is met even if it is not the fault of the landlord that quiet enjoyment there is not? If, for example, a landlord--be it a local council, a housing association or a private owner owns several properties in the same area and one tenant is causing a breach of the quiet enjoyment to the tenant next door or across the way, it should be possible to have a statutory device whereby, on sufficient complaint in writing by the aggrieved tenant and supported if necessary by the police or an environmental health officer, the landlord can take action as a breach of tenancy without leaving it to the other tenant to take action. Tenants would thereby know that if they broke the terms of reasonable neighbourliness, there was some prospect of them being prosecuted and if necessary--I say this conscious of the implications--losing their tenancy.
That requires simply that we adequately resource environmental health departments to ensure that there are enough officers to monitor the problem. The reality is that there are few such officers. In my borough, on only one night a week can people call on the environmental health department, which has a couple of officers who volunteer to be on duty. Sufficient civil or uniformed policing is not available.
I entirely endorse the sentiments of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Irvine). Local authorities should be much more intelligent in their allocation policy than they often are. They allocate properties in the same area to people of totally different life styles. Placing families who have
Column 1072
young children next to pensioner families is asking for trouble. A more sensitive allocation policy prevents many avoidable disturbances.On transport, I want to register what seem to be the major complaints. The first very rarely affects a constituency such as Southwark and Bermondsey but it affects much of rural Britain : the extraordinary noise and frightening effect of low-flying aircraft. I stayed with my family in Herefordshire in the summer. Everybody jumped out of their skin as, one after another, low-flying aircraft flew over. My hon. Friends who represent constituencies in the north, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the Borders regularly complain about low flying. It is a blessed nuisance and it must be mitigated and minimised as much as possible.
The second complaint is much more of an urban problem, about which a public inquiry is being held in the City of London--helicopter noise. I have a simple view : in any built-up area it is not possible to have helicopters without adverse environmental impact. I have never known helicopters to be welcome additions to the transport scene in urban areas. The presumption should be strongly and regularly against them.
I ask the Minister to relay to his colleagues in the Department of Transport the point that track, whether it be underground or railway, should increasingly be the most modern technology
available--rubberised track, which allows the softest transport of trains. We debated that in the context of the Jubilee line extension. It is possible to have much quieter track, which must be used on all railway developments.
Whatever other complaints we may have about the roads, the one that causes most aggravation is motor cycle noise. I do not know why so many people who ride motor bikes get away with making so much noise so often. It is perhaps because they go so quickly and one cannot take the registration number and report them, but of all the types of traffic noise, we must be much tougher on licensing, inspecting, checking and, if necessary, prosecuting those who ride motor bikes. They not only frighten people but add enormously to the noise of traffic, and a few people can make life hell for many. If they were caught more often, or prevented in the first place, life would be much better and we should have a much quieter existence.
9.34 pm
Ms. Walley : With the leave of the House, Mr. Speaker, I should like to speak again.
Virtually every contribution has borne out the importance of the Government tackling the problems of noise. The Opposition have no doubt that the Noise Advisory Council is badly needed once again. Apart from anything else, the findings of the Batho working party have demonstrated that the Government should take action. They should not say, "Wasn't it an interesting debate? Don't we all understand the problems of noise even better?" They should set out in the Queen's Speech new legislation that takes on board the many important issues raised this evening. That is a job for the Under-Secretary of State in conjunction with every one of his colleagues in the Department of Transport--the debate has shown that noise is a dominant problem in transport-related issues--the Home Office, the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and every other Department.
Column 1073
The Under-Secretary should not be content with introducing legislation, although the Queen's Speech will be the litmus test of the Government's commitment to dealing with noise. Other things can be done that do not depend on new legislation. I should like the Under-Secretary, after the debate, to let me know what new regulations, statutory instruments and other forms of action will deal with the many problems about which we have heard.Stoke-on-Trent district council has made representations to me about the issue raised by the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) and told me how harassed and intimidated tenants are by the prospect of having to make a court appearance to substantiate their allegations about an environmental health problem which should be dealt with by the local authority. It all comes down to resources and introducing a spirit of community so that people want to be more tolerant and are encouraged to be more concerned about others and about the effect of their behaviour on others. Much has been said about environmental health officers. The Institution of Environmental Health Officers made a substantial contribution to the Batho report. That contribution must be matched by the Under-Secretary recognising that resources are needed. As I said in my opening remarks, the earlier debate on standard spending assessments showed that that had not been recognised. It must now happen. I urge the Under- Secretary to give us some idea whether he will consult as widely as possible with not only the Institution of Environmental Health Officers but the local authority associations which will be involved in implementing the proposals about which we have heard so much.
9.38 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory) : The fact that we have had a debate on noiseand had so many varied contributions from so many hon. Members shows that noise is very much on the environmental agenda.
The number of complaints from the public about noise nuisance has been rising for some time. This is due not so much to the fact that equipment and vehicles are noisier--often, the reverse is the case, although there are more aircraft and cars--as to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel). People are now more demanding. Now that they have more disposable income and more leisure time, they are less inclined to put up with excessive noise. That is right and proper. This is very much a quality of life issue and it is wholly right that the Government should respond and draw up a package of measures to deal with this difficult subject. No hon. Member has sought to over-simplify the problem. It is not just that many Departments of State are involved, although a glance at the last page of our noise review working party report shows that six Departments contributed to the review. The complexity of the subject also arises from the fact that judgments about noise are very subjective. Excessive noise is not just about decibel levels but about pitch, tone, timing and duration. That is one reason why the working party concluded that our approach of tackling the problem under the statutory nuisances provisions was right, and that an attempt to criminalise noise would probably fail.
Column 1074
It is a tribute to the noise review working party that it anticipated almost all the points raised in this debate. It did not have complete answers to all the problems but it pointed the way, if not to immediate action, at least to further study. Not all the recommendations are fit for immediate legislation and some of them do not require primary legislation anyway. They concern matters such as building regulations, which can be put into effect without legislation. Other issues are to be pursued through planning guidance notes or negotiations with our European partners. Many of the items that cause noise--cars and other vehicles as well as aircraft--are internationally traded and it therefore makes sense to pursue noise abatement measures in an international context.The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms. Walley) drew attention to the need for resources, and in her introductory remarks, at any rate, she was rather dismissive of the noise chapter in the White Paper. She must surely agree that the fact that a whole chapter has been devoted to noise is an achievement in itself. I cannot help but draw a comparison between that and the paucity of comment on noise in the Labour party's document "An Earthly Chance", in which noise rates only half a column.
The hon. Lady complained that our White Paper lacked specific recommendations. That is an unfair charge, especially as I cannot help noting the wording of the noise section in the Labour party's document, which is full of phrases such as "We shall consider whether" and "We will look at strengthening" and "We will encourage manufacturers". I do not necessarily criticise the Labour party on that score, because these are difficult subjects and it is not always possible to be especially assertive, but it ill behoves the hon. Lady to criticise the Government in similar terms.
Ms. Walley : Does the Minister accept that the chapter in the White Paper is not enough if it is not backed up by legislation in the Queen's Speech next week? After all, it is the Government who have the responsibility to do something about noise.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : In his introductory speech, my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside set out the Government's commitments. However, the working party review report is available for public consultation. It would not be proper to rush into early legislation on some of the issues that require extensive consultation, not least with the environmental health departments which are in the front line in the struggle to contain excessive noise.
The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North made much of the fact that more money--or more resources as it always seems to called these days--is necessary to tackle the problem at local authority level. Westminster council is one of the best councils at responding to complaints about noise nuisance. It maintains a 24-hour response and it manages that with one of the lowest community charges in the country. It is not simply a question of spending more money ; it is a question of according the problem the right priority.
The hon. Lady also referred to quiet neighbourhood schemes and she gave the idea a cautious welcome. I am not entirely sure that that idea is the complete solution to the problem. However, I believe that it will help. We are
Column 1075
funding a pilot scheme in London and the details will be announced shortly. It builds very much on the voluntary approach to noise control.Not everyone emitting excessive noise does so deliberately to disturb his or her neighbours. If people in an area or a street could get together voluntarily and agree among themselves perhaps to give each other notice of a late-night party or to agree not to cut the grass on a Sunday or play the bagpipes after 10 pm, that would be good. It is possible for people to agree among themselves and avoid the need for outside statutory interference.
However, there are other forms of noise nuisance in which inescapably the Government must involve themselves more closely. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir J. Stanley) spoke with predictable authority about railway noise and in particular about the problem facing his constituents who may be experiencing more noise on existing lines as a consequence of the channel tunnel and the London rail link.
Clearly my right hon. Friend is aware that that issue is being taken seriously by the Department of Transport, which is considering closely the noise implications of the channel tunnel scheme for those living in Kent. My right hon. Friend would agree that there is a difference between those faced, perhaps unexpectedly, with a new railway line and those who live alongside an existing railway line on which traffic may have increased. After all, they bought their houses and moved to the area in the knowledge that the railway line was there. However, I do not dissent from my right hon. Friend's view that a noise nuisance, however caused, is serious and that is why I am pleased that the Department of Transport is considering that aspect of the problem.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling also referred to the sources of rail noise. It is important that the construction and use of trains and rolling stock are now being addressed from a noise point of view in a European context. We already have the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations and if we can produce something similar for railways and rolling stock, that would help reduce noise at source.
In that context, although no hon. Member raised this issue tonight, I believe that the idea of environmental labelling of consumer products generally might well take into account the potential in some items for noise emissions. When we get round to awarding environmental labels throughout the European Community, if one is considering things such as do- it-yourself equipment, the award of a label should take into account whether the equipment is noisy or whether some effort has been made in its design to moderate or suppress noise.
No one who heard my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Hicks) or the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) can fail to have been impressed by what their constituents go through in respect of neighbourhood noise--in particular, the specific problem of blues parties. The question whether such parties are a form of public entertainment is before the courts. Therefore, I cannot comment on that matter. However, I can draw attention to the passages in the noise working party report that deal with that issue.
Column 1076
The noise abatement notice procedure works reasonably well when there is a persistent and repeated source of noise. In those cases, it should be possible for the environmental health officers concerned to conclude that there is a noise nuisance and to issue a noise abatement notice. If that notice is ignored, a criminal offence may have been committed, and a magistrates court can fine those concerned up to a maximum of £2,000. In the case of noise nuisance from commercial or industrial premises the fine is being increased to £20, 000.I concede that special difficulties arise when noise nuisance may move about from house to house. That is one of the features of pay parties. It is not always known in advance which houses or premises will be used. Therefore, it is often impossible for environmental health officers to serve a noise abatement notice in time, or indeed even when the event is in progress.
The Batho working party has recommended that we examine the possibility of strict liability or of making it an offence to permit one's property to be used in a way that leads to the emission of excessive noise. We shall certainly look closely at that, but I repeat that the Batho working party and, so far, our own deliberations have concluded that it is not realistic or right to make noise nuisance a criminal offence in itself. The working party said that any attempt to define noise would eventually have to fall back on the concept of whether the noise concerned is a nuisance. If it is a nuisance, it is best dealt with by the fairly well-tried and tested procedures under the Control of Pollution Act 1974 and under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, as I think I am entitled to call it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham mentioned a number of issues, including dogs. I did not think that it would be possible for me to get through today without debating dogs in some form or another. My hon. Friend quite rightly said that the registration of dogs does not make them bark any less loudly, although I remind him that barking dogs are subject to control under the Control of Pollution Act and therefore fall to be controlled under the statutory nuisance provisions.
I also agree with my hon. Friend about piped music, which I regard as an abomination. However, naturally the thrust of his remarks concerned transport noise, and especially the noise from aircraft. Again, he speaks with great authority. It chiefly falls to another Department to respond to his comments, and I undertake to draw them to the attention of the Minister for Public Transport.
My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham also mentioned motor cycles, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson). Officials in my Department are shortly to meet representatives of a group of interested organisations that have prepared a draft code for off-the-road motor cycle sports. That may not be terribly relevant to Twickenham, but it is important in more rural areas. The general question of motor cycle noise is a classic instance of noise emitted by an internationally traded commodity. I can confirm that Britain is in the forefront of efforts being made in the European Community further to reduce and restrict noise from motor cycles and motor cycle silencers at source.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Irvine) spoke with great legal knowledge about abatement notices. He asked whether excessive noise could be made a criminal offence ; I believe that I have already dealt with that point. He also emphasised the key role of environmental health departments. That was also
| Next Section
| Home Page |