House of Commons Hansard Debates for 7 Nov 1990

Mr. David Madel (Bedfordshire, South-West) : It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Mr. Lofthouse), just as it was to be on the Committee that he chaired which considered the Employment Bill last Session. I agree fully with what he said about the proposer and seconder of the motion and also with what he said about the Gulf. He reminded us that if international disputes are solved by force rather than

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negotiation, the United Nations authority is completely undermined. The spirit of 1945, when the United Nations was set up in San Francisco, is also undermined.

If one is considering redrawing the map of the middle east, the first thing, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, is for Saddam Hussein to get out of Kuwait and for the United Nations to conduct international negotiations. It should never be forgotten that Kuwait is recognised in international law and by the United Nations as a sovereign, independent state. There is no point in arguing about the Ottoman empire and what happened then. One has to deal with what has happened since 1945, which is what the hon. Gentleman did. This may be the last Queen's Speech before the general election. I hope that it is not. So many reforms have been implemented that the maximum amount of time is needed before the electorate can see what benefits they bring. A further Session of Parliament, starting in November 1991, would provide the Government with more time to demonstrate their general competence in handling issues as they arise.

The Queen's Speech contains, as I see it, four transport Bills. They are prefaced by the words :

"My Government will promote improved efficiency and safety in transport."

I hope that the Government will try to make better use of the transport system that we already have. There is a limit to the amount of motorway and bypass construction that there can be. We should experiment with new traffic management schemes and try to improve the flow of traffic on the existing motorways. If that means a reduction of speed limits in certain areas at certain times, so be it. I welcome also the absence from the Queen's Speech of trade union legislation and local government reform. Both should be left well alone so that the major changes that are already in place have time to take effect.

The Queen's Speech also contains the sentence :

"Other measures will be laid before you."

I hope that they are not, unless there is a great national emergency. The absence of trade union and local government legislation and a general reduction in the number of Bills would provide us with more time for exploratory debates in which to consider issues not so much from the point of view of legislation but from the point of view of our general philosophy and how we run our democracy.

We should look again at reform of the House of Lords. I am passionately in favour of this country always having two-chamber government. Single-chamber government is terribly dangerous. We should seek agreement between the parties on how to proceed. The Liberal Democrats have taken an interest in the question and there have been occasions when we have reached agreement with that party in the House of Commons. It is much more difficult to reach agreement locally. When general elections take place, I should like the percentage of votes that parties get at regional level to entitle them to a topping up system in the House of Lords.

Regional policy is now based on employment creation through improved competitiveness. That in turn requires employment cost-effectiveness, especially in small firms. If we want that to continue, as I do, it needs to be buttressed by greater regional representation in our Houses of Parliament. I should insist on whoever was sent here from

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the regions, as a result of the parties obtaining a percentage of the votes there, being decided by the parties in the regions. I do not want a magic circle at the centre to decide who is to sit in the reformed House of Lords. It is vital that the second chamber should be given a more secure place in our constitutional system.

Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) : Although the hon. Gentleman says that is it hard for the Conservative party to reach agreement with the Labour party on the issue, he knows that the Labour party has a clear view about reform of the House of Lords. It believes that the new structure of the House of Lords should incorporate democratic accountability, based on the regions and proportional representation. If, however, there is not to be an inner circle at the centre, the hon. Gentleman will have to devise a properly democratic method of reform. It is no use mucking around at the edges.

Mr. Madel : I do not regard mucking around at the edges as being the same as the regional parties--the powers within the

regions--deciding who goes to the House of Lords. To take East Anglia as a region, everyone in the region knows who makes a contribution to political life there. People know who has stood for Parliament in East Anglia or who has served at district or county council level. East Anglia forms a natural region. The parties in that area would be perfectly capable of topping up the House of Lords with representatives, based on a percentage of the popular vote that they obtained there.

I mentioned how pleased I am that there is to be no new trade union legislation. That does not mean, however, that we should do nothing. I know that the Government did not like the TUC's initiative on wages, but we do not need to discuss just a wages policy. If we cannot agree about that, there is a whole host of other issues on which we could and should reach agreement with the trade unions. We should pay special regard to the fact that constant changes in the market place require new skills and therefore new training. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment announced recently that the training and enterprise councils can now introduce their own voucher schemes for adult trainees. There will, I hope, be more regional training, based on co-operation between management and trade unions at regional level. It would provide an opportunity for closer contact between the Government and trade unions.

To that must be added the constant flow of directives and suggestions from Brussels, to which this country must respond. It would be so much better if the response was based on agreement between management and unions. All members of the EEC have their own history of employment, training and the management of industrial matters.

Eastern Europe provides a marvellous opportunity for industry in this country to gain export orders and thus a real share of the market. It is also a tremendous challenge. I single out the components industry, which supplies the engineering, motor car and truck industries. It will be relatively easy for firms in eastern Europe to produce components. We do not want our competitive edge to be lost there. That is why, above all, management and unions must see to it that components are manufactured in this country both effectively and competitively. We must also ensure that those who do the work on the factory floor are properly trained.

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I welcome the announcement in the Queen's Speech that

"a Bill will be introduced to establish new machinery for negotiating the pay and conditions of school teachers in England and Wales."

There will be, in other words, a new salaries Bill. I should like the Government to think hard about one issue. In the teachers' contracts, I should like proper attention to be paid to the fact that many young people could do their homework better at school than at home. Conditions for studying at home are not ideal for many young people. If, however, homework is done at school, teacher supervision will be required. Teachers will therefore have additional work to do. I have discussed it with them locally. They say that in principle it is fine, but that their contracts of service must reflect the fact that they will be carrying out additional supervisory duties at school because homework is being done voluntarily there by some pupils. I hope that that will come about under the new pay machinery.

I hope that there will remain a clear recognition that changing the A-level will be possible one day, but that there is nowhere near enough evidence from the performance at GCSE level to say that we should make that change now. We need more time to see how the results of the GCSE reflect a pupil's ability to go on to A-levels. The greatest need is to rethink how best to use teachers' time. If we wish to see developments on such a broad front together with quality teaching, we have to create the space in two ways. First, we must reduce teacher load so that there is time to devote to development as well as to lesson preparation, teaching, marking, examining, tutoring and all the extra-curricular activities. We could do that by a limited duration injection of additional resources to create what I would call thinking and planning time within the timetable.

Secondly, we need to increase non-teaching support staff so that teachers do not have to carry out so many routine clerical tasks. There may be a serious shortage of teachers--no doubt we can argue about that--but there is no shortage of support staff. An increase in the number of such staff and better use of them would mean better use of teaching time and, inevitably, better results in the classroom, more people going on to higher education and a greater standard of living in this country. If we can work out an efficient and effective use of teachers' time with an attractive salary package plus a clear recognition that the local authority sector must always be promoting a sensible balance between efficient school management and a fair allocation of resources, we will see rewards in education and advantages for young people. That will be brought about as a result of the new Bill and the changes in the curriculum.

I would not want this occasion to pass without paying special tribute to my right hon. Friend the new Leader of the House for all he did as Secretary of State for Education and Science. He started to win back teacher support and enthusiasm for discussing with the Government how best to improve the education system.

A fourth term of Conservative Government is perfectly possible. The Christian Democrats in Germany have done it. Dr. Adenauer was returned as Federal Chancellor four times basically by having a policy that steadily increased prosperity and avoided any drastic upheavals. The Opposition certainly cannot guarantee prosperity and there would be plenty of upheavals if they came to power. The choice at the next general election is between

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gradualism or upheavalism. The British people know what they would prefer ; they must make sure that they get what they want. 7.32 pm

Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh) : I welcome this opportunity to make a brief and limited contribution to the debate. Prior to my being called, my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) asked me whether I intended to speak about Northern Ireland, the middle east or Europe. I said, "Yes." In effect, however it is dressed up or presented, we are talking about the same thing in those three areas of contention.

The hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Mr. Lofthouse) made an excellent speech as, he may remember, he did last year and the year before. In this type of debate it is essential to raise an issue that is not tied to the big issues being dealt with by everybody else. I commend the hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford for the admirable way in which he presented his important case.

I should like to refer to the speech made by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn)-- [Interruption.] The right hon. Member has just entered the Chamber and I now realise that I have got it wrong. I mean the speech of the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen). I know that the right hon. Member for Chesterfield will forgive me for that confusion.

Mr. Winnick : He could sue you.

Mr. Mallon : He certainly could, but I am sure that he will appreciate that it was not done with malice.

I was astounded to hear the speech of the right hon. Member for Devonport. It was the most virulent anti-European speech I have heard for a long time. I wondered on what side of the House I was sitting. Every single word of his speech smacked of a limited appreciation not just of the Britain or Europe in which we live now, but the nature of the world in which we live. I found it astounding and anachronistic that someone with the right hon. Gentleman's experience should have put that on the record in the way that he did and at the time that he did. However, it was followed by a remarkable speech from the hon. Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands (Mr. Knox). He presented one of the most enlightened and clearest speeches on European membership that I have heard for a long time.

I should like to pursue that line, but, coming from the north of Ireland, it is difficult to do so. I come from probably the most troubled part of Europe and it would be remiss of me not to make some specific points. I tried to do the same last year, as I have every year since coming to the House. It is essential that those of us who represent the north of Ireland should do so within the democratic forum to which we are elected. It is important to ask our colleagues in the House to listen to us. We ask them to agree or disagree with us because that is the essence of democracy and we ask them to look at what is probably the most difficult problem that has been facing Parliament for 21 years. I do not wish to denigrate the importance of the problems in Iraq or Kuwait, the European issue or any of the greater international problems. However, for the past 21 years Parliament has been trying to bring about peace in the north of Ireland. Therefore, although I would

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dearly love to pursue the debate on the middle east and Europe, I must draw the House's attention to the single most pressing, immediate and long-standing problem in the north of Ireland. I want to make three observations. I know that there will be opportunities to expand on this and there will be opportunities ad infinitum to make the same speech again, because one of the awful certainties about the north of Ireland is that, as the years pass, someone will be making the same speech. Someone will be making the same speech next year. I hope that it is me, but I cannot predict that. I can say that, unless something is done, someone will be standing in this place making the same point and trying to convince this democratically elected House of the nature and extent of the problem.

First let me deal with an injustice in the north of Ireland, as all hon. Members will certainly appreciate. As soon as I mention injustice hon. Members' shoulders go up because they anticipate that I shall be pointing out that I do not agree with legislation, which I do not, as I shall show later, or talking about some aspect of the violence. I am not, but in other ways I am. One aspect of the violence is deprivation. It was not invented by the Provisional Irish Republican Army, the Ulster Defence Regiment, the Ulster Volunteer Force or any paramilitary organisation. The violence of economic and social deprivation has existed since the northern Irish state was founded. It still exists to such an extent that according to this morning's papers, which published figures on poverty for European Community countries, the north of Ireland figure is 28 per cent. compared with about 16 per cent. for the next nearest country. The definition of poverty took into account all the social security available. The figure increases to 38 per cent. if child poverty is included.

That violence does not stem from an action or a reaction of the Government or of a paramilitary grouping. It stems from the human and political condition in the north of Ireland and I ask the Government to do something about it. Every year that passes with a child poverty level of 38 per cent. will be reflected in the figures on violence and paramilitarism. They are there for all to see. They are a matter of European record and on record within this Parliament. I again implore the Government, as I do every year, to consider that factor. Neglect and poverty are among the greatest factors of violence in Northern Ireland. It is the violence of not allowing people to have the standard of living to which everybody should be entitled. Sceptics will say that it is there if people choose to get out of bed and work and that if they want work they can find it and have a decent standard of living. Let me tell the House again that this is an endemic problem. If only the people of England, Scotland and Wales knew exactly how much of their taxes were poured down the drain in Northern Ireland every year to try to find a security solution to a problem which is not one of security, they would react strongly. Millions of pounds have been spent on trying to find a solution to a problem which is not the problem facing us.

I can extend the argument to income support, family credit and the new range of social security benefits. The House must remember that, before claiming benefits, the people of Northern Ireland are 30 per cent. poorer than anyone else in the area governed by this Parliament.

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Therefore, if there is to be parity with the other regions, the people of Northern Ireland will have to have a 30 per cent. increase. That is in addition to the 38 per cent. child poverty trap, which speaks for itself.

Secondly, when I read the Gracious Speech it did not surprise me that the only reference to the north of Ireland related to more, bigger and better emergency legislation. After 21 years will anybody say, "Hold on, we have had the most stringent emergency legislation and unlimited financial resources to pursue a security solution. We have had a strong Army presence coupled with the UDR, the police and the reserve police and all the resources that go with that, yet the Gracious Speech tells us that we shall have more of the same"? That 21 years is a rake's progress, starting from a negative position and, at the expense of British taxpayers, slowly pursuing something that does not exist. It is like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow ; there is no security solution to the problem.

There is no way in which this Government or a Government formed from either side of the House can obtain a security solution to the problem, irrespective of the type of legislation or the amount of money thrown at it. Throughout that period it has been shown clearly that such legislation, which will be debated in Committee for two months, will not solve the problem. Please try to realise that there is no security solution to the problem.

I am tempted to draw conclusions from the recent debate on the Gulf, but I will not, because that is not to compare like with like. As someone who spends week after week trying to pick up the pieces caused by violence and this type of negative legislation, I know that in another year, five years or 10 years another Government will be in office debating another Gracious Speech which, at most, will contain another piece of emergency legislation, unless we realise that that will not solve the problem. That is difficult for a Government and a Parliament who believe that problems can be solved by force. I was intrigued that the right hon. Member for Devonport laughed when he talked about his mother's reaction to the concept that the war might be lost. There is a feeling in Parliament and the country that with enough ammunition, money and people in uniform, we will win. We may win, but will we lose, because, at the end of the day, there is an absolute distinction between salvaging the political dignity that is achieved by security solutions and force of arms, and achieving the solution to the problem, as we set out to do. The third issue I want to raise is an unpopular one. Occasionally I am howled down in this House and within my party for raising it, but it must be said and the more often, the better. What is the objective of the Government, my party, other political parties in the north of Ireland and the Government of the Republic? Is it to beat the IRA or to create peace? We must continually ask that question. After 21 years in politics I do not believe that I have to convince anyone of my detestation of the IRA and its violence. What is left to me in my remaining years as an active politician? Am I to stand here and repeat my detestation of violence and the IRA or should I try to create conditions that will contribute to solving the problem? We must all answer that question. The longer we go without facing up to the three fundamental and difficult issues I have raised, the longer we will put aside the time when we can start to solve the problems. It will not be easy for anyone.

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In the debate on the Gracious Speech last year I set out four things that must be undertaken if we are to get to grips with the creation, or re-creation, of a political process that will cope with the problems of Northern Ireland. Those four conditions are even more crucial today. It is too easy, however, to hide behind cliches. If one asks anybody on this side of the water or in the Republic what they mean by solving the problem, they answer that we should "Get together". We get together every day of the week, but those people mean we should get together politically. But what does that mean? They take it to mean devolution, but those people should examine what that means. Does it mean that I could set about solving the problems in the north of Ireland or does it mean that I should attempt to solve those problems, if I chose foolishly to do so, under terms decided by the House? That is the fourth issue that this House must address.

Devolution was tried in 1921 and it lasted until 1973. It failed between 1921 and 1973 ; it failed in 1973 and 1974 and it failed again when the then Secretary of State, James Prior, tried, foolishly, to impose it. That proposed solution has failed ever since. I ask the House to have the courage to look some of its sacred cows in the face. I know that I shall be hung because of that statement. I know that there will be those on the Benches around me who will pick up Hansard and say, "He doesn't believe in devolution. He does not agree that it will solve the problem". Let me reiterate what I have said : I do not believe that it will solve the problem. We should not waste our time, that of any Secretary of State or of anyone else pursuing a line of approach that I firmly believe will not solve the problem.

We should sit down and look at what has failed us in the past. We must consider the elements with which we must cope, some of which I have mentioned today. We should consider some of the structures available to us, not least the European structures to which the hon. Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands referred. It is not as though we have been too damned lazy to look at possibilities in the past--I know you will forgive me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for putting it in those terms--but it is almost as though we have been frozen in time when attempting to solve the problem.

If we can attempt to settle European and other world problems through the use of new and different structures, what is wrong with trying to work out why we have failed so often in the past? I put that argument last year, the year before and the year before that. I hope that I shall be here next year to restate it. I hope that someone on these Benches will always make that argument until we encourage this House to start to face up to the reality of the problems. Until we do, we are hiding behind knee-jerk reactions. We all have such reactions when we condemn violence every week. Two weeks ago that violence cost the lives of 11 people and in recent months 15 people have died in my constituency.

It is right that we should condemn such violence and for everyone to know how we feel, but that is not enough. A change is needed. We must consider solutions that have not been tried before. In that way we can start to solve the problem and then there will be no need to speak about it next year and no need for knee-jerk reactions.

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7.56 pm

Sir John Stokes (Halesowen and Stourbridge) : I know that a number of us have been here for many hours and must be tired ; I shall therefore try to make my remarks as brief as possible.

I never listen to the Queen's Speech without marvelling at the continuity of English history, so unlike that of many other countries, and also rejoicing at the pageantry and symbolism which emphasise our roots in the past and our cohesion today in this kingdom. For all the political differences that are built into our parliamentary system, we are still one nation. What differences there are we settle here by discussion and argument and not, generally, by rioting in the streets. There is also still, except for a few regrettable cases, respect for the law of the land throughout the country.

The Gracious Speech ended with the customary wish for God's blessing on our counsels. That led me to think of the present spiritual state of the nation. We all hope for a strong moral lead from the new Archbishop of Canterbury. I also hope and pray that the next General Synod will not tear the Church of England to pieces with its enthusiasm to make women priests. It will certainly be necessary for the House to scrutinise most carefully any measures that come before it from the General Synod.

Despite what we heard about poverty in Northern Ireland, in most parts of England--certainly in the part of the world that I represent--there has been an enormous improvement in the standard of living of ordinary people in the past 20 years. I fear that that has led some to believe that heaven is with us here and now. In supermarkets £50 and £20 notes seem to be used all the time. Because of that feeling, some believe that there is not much need for the after-life about which people like Wesley used to preach when times were much harder in the 18th century.

In all walks of life I constantly meet very good people, but now, unfortunately there is some lowering of standards. There is some greed and materialism about, particularly in parts of the City of London and in a small section of industry, as witnessed in recent legal cases. I also encounter now, compared with some years ago, appallingly bad manners, particularly from some car drivers. Many of our towns and cities are still dreadfully disfigured by litter, dirt and graffiti. Nevertheless, taken all in all, and I travel a great deal, this is still the best country in the world in which to live. But we must continue to improve our environment.

I welcome the smaller number of substantial Bills in the Queen's Speech. I believe that the country longs for a period of good and steady government and better public services, and I am glad that those are emphasised in the Gracious Speech. In relation to those services, the country does not necessarily need more taxpayers' money ; it needs better leadership and management at every level. There is a longing for law and order. The disgraceful prison disturbances some time ago and the recent riots in London should never have been allowed to happen.

As I have told successive Home Secretaries for many years, we shall never have a proper police force until we get back to the old system, as under Lord Trenchard, of a properly recruited and trained officer class. There is also a crying need for management in the health service, the post office and the railways where colonels' jobs are often done by corporals.

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We have heard much this afternoon about the threat of war in the Gulf. As Christians, we must hope that if there is to be war, it should be a just war. We heard a fluent speech from the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) who, as we know, is only human and has a strong built-in anti-United States bias. He said that war, if it came, would be all about oil.

It is true that oil certainly comes into the war, but many of us from both sides of the House think that the war is all about trying, for the first time since 1939, to stop aggression. We all know that if aggression had been stopped before 1939 there would not have been a world war. Now we have a simply marvellous opportunity with the Security Council, including Soviet Russia and even China, supporting a concerted effort to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait. That is a new and most important development in world history.

We all hope that the sanctions will become more and more successful. However, the right hon. Member for Chesterfield did not answer the question about what alternatives, except force, there would be if sanctions did not work. As we know, Saddam is not willing to negotiate or leave Kuwait. That places our leaders in a difficult position. There is an absolute necessity for Kuwait to be repossessed and compensated for the wrong done, but I also hope that soon after that the problem of Israel will be settled at last, once and for all, with Israel withdrawing from the occupied territories and having its boundaries recognised by all Arab nations. I am glad that that was mentioned in the Gracious Speech.

I know that this country has sent the cream of its armed forces to the Gulf. From my recent experience in the United States, I believe that the American forces there are better led, trained and fitter than they were in Vietnam some years ago, and are all professional soldiers, not conscripts.

There has been some controversy, in which I have recently been involved, about the behaviour of some of the families of hostages and some hostages. No one can be so unfeeling as not to appreciate the dreadful position in which those people find themselves. I drew attention to the fact that some of them, not all, have appeared on television in an emotional state with the apparent object of changing not only British foreign policy but United Nations policy--to weaken the united resolve and in some way deal with Saddam. They wonder how, if that is not done, any progress can be made.

I was pleased that today my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Defence said that they were proud of most of the hostages. Only a minority of people have appeared on television and behaved in what I regard as an unsuitable way. Many of us have known grief--I certainly have--and when it occurs it is best expressed in private, not on television. Those were the perfectly fair points that I was trying to make.

Today's debate has been mainly about Europe and its future. We heard a most remarkable speech from the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen). It was one of the best speeches that I have heard in my 20 years here and certainly one of the best from him. I hope he will forgive me if I say that it seemed like a speech from a good old-fashioned Tory.

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There have recently been unseemly differences in the EEC about the Uruguay round of trade negotiations and farm prices. There has been extraordinary humbug spoken with some of the EC nations prattling about unity, the unified nations and federalism, while not agreeing at all on fundamental matters and risking fearful trouble with the United States. That smacks of humbug. I meet the Governments, representatives, and peoples of Europe on a regular basis so I know what I am talking about. We must remember that our history, background, laws and way of doing things are different from those on the continent. In France, there was the dreadful, appalling revolution with the frightful sacrifice of innocent people and then the shameful episode of extensive collaboration with the Germans during the German occupation. We all know about Hitler's excesses in Germany. Both those countries are now quite different and I am in favour of the strongest co-operation with European nations. I believe, as de Gaulle did, in a Europe of nation states. I also believe in making the EEC work, but we must look carefully at the small print and to what we are to be committed.

We do not want this ancient assembly to be reduced to the status of a parish council. We do not want fundamental changes made with our money, trade, factories, life or details of our life by bureaucrats in Brussels, however well-intentioned or well-paid. We must change the system before we get in with them. That is perfectly sensible, and that debate is becoming more and more known. A number of nations, particularly the smaller ones, very much agree with us about that. Another problem facing the Government is the increase in Government expenditure. The Opposition appear to think that the more taxpayers' money that is spent, the better. But the more taxpayers' money that is spent, the less there is for the private sector which pays for everything and on which we all depend. I fear that the Government will find it hard this year--we shall hear tomorrow--to control expenditure at the same time as reducing inflation.

In my view, there is a recession--we must call it so. I know that because of what is happening in the factories of the west midlands. Fortunately, however, it is a much less serious recession than that of the early 1980s ; fortunately, too, companies now are much more efficient, much fitter and much more able to cope. I hope and pray that the recession will be short, and I look forward after Christmas to a further reduction in interest rates.

Most of what is in the Queen's Speech is wise and will be well thought of by the public. I welcome the determination to make fathers pay for their children, and to strengthen family ties in whatever way we can. One of the most appalling social problems facing the nation is the enormous number of divorces and the huge and growing number of illegitimate children, with all the worry, sadness and expense that they cause.

I also welcome the Government's firm stand against terrorism and their intention to replace and, I hope, to strengthen existing anti-terrorist legislation. The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) said that we must not have only an anti-IRA policy : we must have a general policy. Of course we must, but unless we beat the IRA there can be no future for Northern Ireland.

I said some time ago that I was slightly worried that some politics was being talked in pubs. I am afraid that there is still a little talk, although less than there was. There is too much criticism, too much in the newspapers, and too much examining of ourselves and looking at our entrails

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every few hours. There are too many news bulletins. One must get on with life and not take one's temperature all the time. I blame the press and the media--the BBC and the other television companies--for all the unnecessary fuss about the leadership of my party. It is damaging not only to my party but to the nation. If some of my colleagues are foolish enough to want to stand against the Prime Minister, let them come out and say so. Let us hear their names and know who they are instead of having these grey men pushed forward like dummies.

I have seen quite a bit of life in peace and war. I know something of men and women and I have enough sense to know--I had it long before she was our leader--that our Prime Minister is an outstanding person in this country and throughout the world. Criticism of her is mostly extremely unfair. I am certain as time goes on that she will both remain our leader and win the next general election.

8.14 pm

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : The hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Sir J. Stokes) is one of the characters in the House. When I first came here, the main Tory character was Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport, who I believe died recently and to whom the hon. Gentleman is a worthy successor. We are used to the hon. Gentleman's extravagent remarks, but I think that it would have been appropriate if he had apologised for his remarks about the families of the hostages. He said that grief should be private. That may or may not be so, but the hon. Gentleman should understand the deep grief and anxiety of families who do not know whether they will see their loved ones again. The hon. Gentleman should, on reflection, have withdrawn his remarks.

The hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge is often referred to as the Member for the 17th century, but he displayed one very 20th century feature today. However much he may criticise the media, he likes to get his bit of publicity, and he is well aware of the likely impact of his closing remarks.

It would be hypocritical to deny that the considerable disarray in which the Government find themselves causes the Opposition a certain amount of satisfaction. When Governments are in that position, it would be odd if the Opposition were not pleased. Outside the Chamber, Tory Members are talking not so much about the Queen's Speech but about the intense factional fighting in their ranks. If, as the Prime Minister continually claims, there has been and is no difference between her and the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), why did he resign? We know from the newspapers how he was treated in the past 12 months--the petty humiliations, the pin pricks and so on. We know of the contempt in which the Prime Minister held the man who had at least the title of deputy Prime Minister. It is unfortunate that a Prime Minister should treat a Cabinet colleague in that way.

It is no secret that the Opposition--and, I imagine, a good number of Conservative Members--believe that two civil servants, Mr. Charles Powell and Mr. Bernard Ingham, have far more influence over the Prime Minister than has any member of the Cabinet. I am sure that no Conservative Member would deny that there is a kitchen Cabinet of tremendous power. It might be said that we should not attack those who cannot defend themselves.

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Perhaps that is so, but it is surely the abuse of the power that they have been given by the Prime Minister which leads us to mention these two particular civil servants.

I hope that the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) will not mind my saying--I cannot be doing his reputation much good by saying it-- that I much admired the courage that he showed last year. This may be regarded as mischief-making, but I would say the same if it happened in my party. The hon. Gentleman stood against the Prime Minister knowing that he had no chance and that he might be subjected to all sorts of smear campaigns. He took his courage in his hands and faced the onslaughts of his constituency party--onslaughts which he probably guessed would come. All that takes courage, and we need courage in this House.

There is a great difference between the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West and the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), who says all sorts of things but keeps on saying at the last moment that he has no intention of standing against the Prime Minister. Yet everyone knows that the right hon. Gentleman is determined to become leader of the Tory party at the first opportunity, although whether he will do so after the events of last week remains to be seen. The Queen's Speech refers to improving

"the working of the economy",

but the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge was honest enough to admit that we are in a recession. It is certainly hitting the west midlands. The hon. Gentleman said that it did not have the same impact as the one of 10 years ago, and he is right--so far. But 10 years ago there was devastation in the west midlands and the black country--I notice the hon. Gentleman nodding in agreement. In the past fortnight three firms in my constituency have announced that they are to close. We are again facing plant closures and large-scale redundancy, with all the hardship that that entails.

Instead of being assisted to face the even stronger competition that will undoubtedly occur from 1992 onwards, industry is being penalised by high interest rates and an economic climate that is not at all conducive to the much-needed revival of British industry. How many more firms in the west midlands, the very heartland of manufacturing industry, will close in the next six or 12 months? How many more redundancies will there be? The reference in the Gracious Speech to improving the working of the economy is nonsense. The Gracious Speech also talks about improving the quality of health and social services. One of the reasons for the Government's deep unpopularity is the way in which the national health service has been underfunded during the Government's lifetime. Conservative Members are not likely to nod in approval of that, but they know it as well as I do. We have seen ward closures and lengthening waiting lists and there is a perception among ordinary people that the Government have no enthusiasm for the NHS. That is why poll after poll has shown that the electorate has no confidence in the Government's handling of the NHS.

Opting out is nonsense. The district general hospital in my borough is obviously within the structure of the national health service. Why should it come out of that management structure? Why are people not allowed to have a say about whether it should come out? My borough council organised an opportunity for people to express their views. There was an overwhelming majority against

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opting out, but the Government seem to have taken no notice whatever. The unions in the Manor and Groscote hospitals organised ballots among the staff and, again, there were large majorities against what are described as self-governing trusts. The consultants were the only people allowed by the health authority to vote and 30 of them, I understand, voted against while 12 were in favour. Where is there any kind of mandate for the Government to go ahead and allow the district general hospital in my borough to opt out? I hope that the Government will not proceed with that, because it would be in defiance of the wishes of ordinary people who have clearly expressed their view.

There is no mention at all of housing in the Gracious Speech. I do not know about the experiences of Conservative Members, but most of the people who come to see Labour Members and those who write to us are concerned about housing. The problem is clear. People who are not able to afford a mortgage and could not do so even if the interest rate was much lower have nowhere to live, and that will continue unless they can be provided with public rented accommodation. Under the Government, even the number of houses built by housing associations has declined. The response of Ministers is always the same. They say that there will be a revival of the privately rented sector. What revival? I agree that some such accommodation has appeared on the market, but look at the rents that are being asked. If people could afford such rents they could get a mortgage in the first place.

It is wrong and unjust that a relatively large section of the community which is not in a position to buy should be penalised and forced to live in totally unsatisfactory accommodation either in bedsits or with parents or in-laws. I have said before and make no apology for repeating that people who come to my surgery, let alone those who write, plead with me to do something to help them. Many of them have children. I write to the local authority, but it has a long waiting list. Because of Government policy, no council accommodation has been built in the borough for more than 11 years. That is the picture all over Britain ; it is normal. Why should such people be penalised? What crime have they committed? They are not able to buy property and, therefore, have to wait years before there is any chance of accommodation. When accommodation is offered it is usually a flat, and families with even two children who live in flats have a very remote chance of a transfer to a council house. Those are the domestic problems that we face and they are certainly not being solved by the Government.

On the subject of the middle east, it will come as no surprise to anyone, and certainly not to any of my hon. Friends, to know that I loathe war as much as anyone. When I spoke in the House about the invasion of Kuwait I said that sanctions should be allowed time to work and that if they did not work force would have to be used, although I hoped that that would be with the authorisation of the United Nations. As I said in an intervention, there has not been the slightest indication since the invasion of 2 August that the criminal regime in Iraq has any intention of withdrawing from Kuwait. Some people say that we should negotiate and send the Foreign Secretary. For what purpose? Almost daily we are

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told that Kuwait is the 17th province of Iraq and that it must remain so for ever. What is there to negotiate about or what purpose would be served? The regime of Saddam Hussein clearly has no intention of withdrawing. Whether sanctions will in time do the trick remains to be seen.

I am not Johnny-come-lately to these matters. Some of my hon. Friends may ask why Tory Members were not concerned about the criminal regime in Iraq before2 August. I certainly was. On 5 April I had an Adjournment debate in which I was assisted by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn). I think that he and I have different views about what should be done about the invasion of Kuwait. On 5 April, following the execution of a journalist in Iraq, I spoke about the terror and the atrocities occurring in Iraq. I referred to the slaughter of Kurds in March 1987, the gassing, which was a crime against humanity. The Government did not seem to take much notice, any more than they took much notice of the crimes committed by the military in Argentina before the invasion of the Falklands. Many Labour Members, including me, were very worried about the situation in Iraq before the invasion occurred.

The criminal regime in Iraq has committed untold numbers of crimes against its own people and it has invaded Kuwait. All the reports show, and certainly the Amnesty International report confirms, that there has been outright terror in Kuwait. Can we be surprised at that? If Saddam Hussein carries out such crimes and atrocities against his own people, why should there be surprise when such terrible crimes are committed in Kuwait?

I agree with those who say that we should resolve other problems in the middle east. I have said before that I certainly want to see a solution for the Palestinians. I repeat that if the Jews have a right to a state of their own--which they have--the Palestinians have the same right. The Palestinian problem will not go away. However, the tension between Israel and the Palestinians is not an excuse for inaction by the international community over Kuwait. The criminal regime must be forced out of that country. If that can be done by sanctions enabling us to avoid war no one will be happier than I. However, I cannot and will not rule out the use of force. It would be a crime not only against the people of Kuwait but against international order if we concluded that we must accept the status quo.

The Government are tired and demoralised and they have lost the country's confidence. There is much speculation about whether the election will be next year or in 1992. No doubt the Government will cling on to the bitter end, rather like the Government elected in 1959 who went on to the last moment in 1964. It will not make any difference. This is a Government who have lost the confidence of the electorate and who should leave office. They will not do so ; they will cling on to office, but there is every sign that they will be defeated at the hustings and be replaced by a Labour Government. 8.30 pm

Sir Anthony Meyer (Clwyd, North-West) : One of the compensations for the rather disjointed debate that we have on the first day of our debate on the Queen's Speech is that it gives hon. Members the opportunity to step out of character. I am not accusing the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) of doing that, but he has stepped out of the stereotype that is the generally held view

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of him among Conservative Members. I thank him for his kind remarks about me, but I assure him that I do not intend to sip twice from the poisoned chalice.

Talking of stepping out of character or stereotype, the remarkable speech of the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) was an even more dramatic demonstration of his advance towards the Conservative Benches than anything we have had before. I was only sorry that the Prime Minister was not present to nod her vigorous assent to every word that he uttered, as she invariably does to every word uttered on this topic by the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore).

I deeply regret the departure from the Government of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe). His resignation gravely weakens the Government. It diminishes the respect in which the House is held. He is a major loss and I very much hope that we will not see rumbling into action the propaganda machine that has already convinced us that the Government's economic troubles stem from the tenure of 11 Downing street by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson). He was regarded as a brilliant Chancellor and unassailable, but he is now branded as the author of all our misfortunes. I have a nasty feeling that the same process will be put to work against my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East, to whom my party, the Government and the country owe so much.

My right hon. and learned Friend wrote a brilliant article in the magazine International Affairs, the Chatham House publication. That was the occasion of the difference with the Government which led to his decision to resign. He set out the role of this country in Europe and the part that national sovereignty should play. Together with the Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend has defined a policy towards Europe for this party and our Government. It not only unites the Conservative party but takes with it the majority of the Labour party, as well as pretty well the whole of the Liberal Democrats.

It is a policy of British involvement in everything that happens in the European Community, taking our full part in it, alway being present, seeking to deflect it when it runs in directions that we consider harmful to our national interest, to slow it down when it seems to be going faster than we can accommodate, but always going with the stream of European developments. That policy unites the Conservative party and commands widespread support across the Floor of the House.

There is an alternative policy. It is one which the Prime Minister, when she ceases to be Dr. Jekyll and becomes Mr. Hyde, seems occasionally to incline to, although there was little evidence of it in her speech today. It is an appeal to the anti-Europe, anti-foreigner sentiment that lies in the psyche of many British people. Such a policy, based on dislike of Europe and everything that emanates from it, could win support from the Daily Express and The Sun and might even receive a ramshackle majority in the House. I very much hope that it would not be a majority that would include the right hon. Member for Devonport, but I am jolly sure that it would secure the support of the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney.

Such a policy, however temporarily attractive it might be, would split the Tory party from top to bottom and might, before long, also split the Labour party. It would be disastrous for the country and for Europe, and all the

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more disastrous for my party if it were seen, as it would be seen, as an attempt by the Prime Minister to bolster her leadership and improve her electoral prospects.

I am sure that the Prime Minister will make no attempt to use the Gulf crisis as a means of scaring off any challenge to her leadership or reversing the party's decline in the polls. President Bush stopped short, but only just, of exploiting the Gulf crisis to improve the chances of Republican candidates facing election. It is fortunate that the Prime Minister's tough stance and her declared readiness to approve the use of armed force to evict Saddam Hussein from Kuwait cannot be seen in any way as motivated by her desire to retain the leadership of or to turn the electoral tide for the Conservative party.

However, having said that, and being convinced that, if we do go to war in the Gulf to evict the Iraqis from Kuwait, it would be a just war, one has to recognise that that is not the same as saying that it would be a wise war. The consequences of a conflict of this sort in the middle east are impossible to predict. It would be wise to take careful note of what King Hussein of Jordan is saying about the possible fallout from a war such as this. Even if it were instantly successful, and Saddam Hussein were instantly evicted from Kuwait and toppled, what would pour into the vacuum thus created? It takes a fantastic degree of optimism to believe that this chain of events would lead to, or facilitate, a peaceful solution to the problems of the middle east.

I have no fault to find with the way in which the Prime Minister and the Government have conducted policy in the middle east up to now, although there have been occasions when I have regretted the extravagance of the Prime Minister's rhetoric about putting Saddam Hussein in chains. I doubt whether any hon. Member has any criticism of the Foreign Secretary or of the way in which he has handled this matter throughout. However, I am a little concerned that the course of the debate in the House may lead the Government to suppose that they now have an undisputed mandate to go to war. It looks to me as if the House has given that mandate. I am not yet convinced that the people have given any such mandate.

8.40 pm

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