House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Nov 1990

The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Roger Freeman) : My hon. Friend has been kind enough to inform me that he has to catch a train to his constituency and may not be able to stay for the whole debate. The Government agree not only with him but with my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames) about motorway information services. The road traffic Bill that we hope to present shortly will contain specific provisions to deal with that matter. We intend to take clear action to ensure that motorists are aware of problems that may arise later in their journey so that they can take avoiding action.

Mr. Neale : I am sure that hon. Members and motor vehicle users alike will welcome such provisions with open arms. They will be very useful.

Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley) : As a regular motorway user himself, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt share my hope that the illuminated signs on motorways, which often give incorrect information, are made to give the correct information of which motorists can then take note.

Mr. Neale : I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will take it on board. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley), who has also been involved in these matters and who has dealt with them very ably, will confirm that it is not always as easy as it sounds to provide information systems, although a great deal could be done to improve them.

The Gracious Speech contained some welcome news about transport matters, including the proposal that we should go out to the private sector for the construction and

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operation of toll roads and motorways. I have long felt that that is the direction that we should take, especially where there is gross overcrowding on the existing motorway network. The opportunity is there for the private sector to play a part. But before the publication of that Bill and, linked with it, the planning Bill, there are two or three points on which I wish to caution my hon. Friend the Minister. I hope that he will be able to address them now if he had not done so in the Bill.

It is intended that there should be some form of competition in respect of the schemes and that the contenders should produce plans for them. That is understandable but I suggest that, unless the brief is very clear, some major contractors will say, "We have a one-in-four chance of success. The cost of producing the plans is too high for us to entertain so we shall sit this one out." My hon. Friend must either limit greatly the number of contenders whom he approaches in respect of a scheme or he must be careful to explain exactly what the Department is looking for, to cut the cost of preparing the design.

I hope that my hon. Friend has clear guidelines in mind to deal with the question of development gain. If private operators are to produce competitive road schemes and if charges to the consumer are to be kept down, much will depend on what the operators can do with the land adjoining the motorway or road that they are constructing. That gives rise to questions of planning and compulsory purchase. We must examine carefully the planning inquiry system in so far as it relates to our infrastructure projects. I happen to think that we should look at the system in respect of all our major projects, including power stations or whatever. We need a public inquiry system that requires local authorities and all interested groups to make submissions to an inquiry and under which that inquiry's decision is final. Without that, we shall not succeed in encouraging people in the private sector to move into such schemes. If private operators know that they must go through the public inquiry system and the planning permission system, with all that that entails in terms of the length of time involved, there will be little to attract them. Toll roads and private sector involvement are an excellent idea and it is courageous of the Government, and of Transport Ministers in particular, to propose such a scheme. If Ministers deal with those points--among the other points that I know they have in mind--there is every chance of the proposal producing more investment and better road systems for our motor vehicle users.

11.58 am

Mr. John P. Smith (Vale of Glamorgan) : Let me start by commenting on the welcome remarks of the hon. Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames) about British airports. For a long time now, I have been campaigning for the improvement of provincial and regional airports. In particular, we have been campaigning for some time for an adequate road and rail link to the Cardiff Wales airport to serve the community and the local economy. I am glad to say that that is shortly to be the subject of an evidence-taking exercise by the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs. I hope that, during that exercise, we shall be able to give the matter a thorough airing, so there is no need for me to raise the subject in today's debate.

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I welcome the measures on road safety in the Gracious Speech. I was delighted to see that the Government propose tougher measures against offending drivers, particularly drunk drivers. That is overdue. The Government should be congratulated on taking measures in that connection. I am also delighted that we shall make use of new technology to detect offences on our roads. That is to be welcomed. We should remember that increasing the punishments alone will not necessarily result in large improvements. We must change attitudes to driving, especially drinking and driving, which causes terrible carnage on our roads. But that should be balanced with improved detection. We already have stiff penalties, but we have not seen a continued dramatic improvement in driving standards. Therefore, I and many other people were disappointed not to see a reference in the Gracious Speech to introducing controlled random breath tests. I hope that the Minister will comment on that at some stage.

The record on road accidents in Britain is bad. I am informed that, during the five hours of today's debate alone, 350 people will be seriously injured or killed on our roads. Over 5,000 people were killed and roughly 350,000 were injured on our roads last year. The House may be surprised to hear--it is a feather in the British cap--that even that bad record is one of the best in Europe. We have a comparative road safety record to be proud of although, there is a fly in the ointment. Our record on accidents involving pedestrians and children is not good. However, overall road safety in Britain is good compared to other European countries. There is room for enormous improvement, and random breath tests are one measure that we could take. We know from experience in other countries that they work. We should also commend the Department of Transport for setting its laudable target of reducing the accident rate by 30 per cent. by the year 2000. Many hon. Members will agree that we must take measures soon to ensure that the target is realised. Several effective, low-cost measures could greatly assist us in achieving the target, one of which would cost nothing. An early-day motion supported by over 100 hon. Members from both sides of the House supports the early introduction of draft regulations in the current Session to make wearing rear seat belts compulsory for adults.

That would prove an exceptionally effective method of reducing death and injury on our roads, particularly the horrifying injuries which result when adults are catapulted from the back seats of cars. The introduction of front seat belts had a dramatic effect and the introduction of compulsory wearing of rear seat belts for children under 14 will have a dramatic effect. Once again, the evidence from other countries suggests that the wearing of rear seat belts by adults can greatly reduce accidents.

It is worth bearing in mind that each road death in Britain was recently estimated to cost the community £0.5 million in health costs, emergency services and support for the family of the deceased. Forgetting about the human misery that can be caused, the cost-effectiveness of reducing the number of road accidents is demonstrated by the cost to the community--currently about £6 billion a year. That is the price we pay for the toll of death and injury on our roads.

A second measure would be effective. We hope that the Department of Transport will make a statement shortly on the amount of money that it intends to allocate to local

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safety schemes such as small engineering road schemes which have a superb track record in reducing accidents. They include improving lighting and sometimes merely a spot of paint on a street corner gives a warning. Such schemes also include pedestrian crossings, and so on. We know that the Government have a commitment in principle to such schemes but we should like to hear how much will be allocated. We hope that it will be adequate.

We are making progress on road safety compared with our European counterparts, but many hon. Members will be disappointed that there was no reference in the Gracious Speech to other forms of transport, and to transport safety in particular. There was no mention of aviation or our not -so-good record on railway safety. Compared to many of our European counterparts, our record on railway safety is not good ; and this year, it was particularly bad. The month of August was the worst month ever for train accidents involving large numbers of casualties.

Many hon. Members will be disappointed that there was no reference in the Gracious Speech to resolving the dilemma that seems to have emerged in British law which does not allow us to allocate corporate responsibility for the dreadful neglect of safety standards, particularly in public transport. Cases collapsed recently when no corporate responsibility could be placed on those who owned or managed large companies which appeared to be responsible for dreadful disasters which had caused death and destruction.

After the Clapham crash, there was no attempt to place corporate responsibility on British Rail or those responsible for financing British Rail. Yet this year, history was made when a train driver, Mr. Robert Morgan, was sentenced to six months in gaol--18 months, with 12 months suspended. The sentence was later reduced by the Court of Appeal. It was the first time ever that a British train driver had been given a custodial sentence for overshooting a red light--which he courageously admitted--when he was neither drunk nor proven to be acting in an absolutely reckless manner. It was a mystery to some of us why Mr. Morgan pleaded guilty to manslaughter. Anyone like me who has driven in the front of a locomotive and seen the nature of a train driver's job will know that it is tedious and boring. Drivers shoot through warning signs and yellow signs and knock off the Klaxon that comes on in the cab almost instinctively and automatically. From my limited experience I can see how easy it is for someone to make a mistake That man made a mistake--no one seeks to deny it- -in the course of his work, which destroyed his life and affected his family. He paid a high penalty for that one mistake. The house should carefully consider an anomaly. In most other European countries, such an incident and error could not have happened, because fail-safe devices have been introduced which prevent the ludicrous possibility of somone overshooting a red light through an error of judgment. A driver of a forward moving train has 250 yards in which to stop it before it cuts across a main line carrying a 90 mph express. Practically every other railway system in western Europe would have a fail-safe emergency stop in such a situation. The driver took the train through one warning light without slowing down, through a second yellow warning light without slowing down, because of the tedium of the

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job or whatever, and then through a red light. The train could not have stopped in time at that point, because it was going too fast. Such accidents should not be allowed to happen. We should have a system of rail safety that ensures that, when human fallibility comes into the equation and honest and decent people make mistakes in their work, those errors do not result in carnage and disaster- -as they did on that occasion, and may do again. We should remember that, after Mr. Robert Morgan was charged with manslaughter, the number of accidents and incidents over the following year increased dramatically in British Rail.

Passing such a sentence on a person like that smacks of making a scapegoat of him. Any objective analysis of the circumstances leading up to the incident can only lead one to that conclusion. I do not blame the judge or the court, because Mr. Morgan pleaded guilty to manslaughter, although I find it hard to believe that he should have done so. One person has been made a scapegoat when public transport in general and British Rail in particular have a record of falling way behind our European counterparts in safety.

Many of us would have liked to see something in the Gracious Speech about introducing corporate responsibility into the law and ensuring that it is applied effectively. We should also introduce statutory regulations so that British Rail has responsibility to ensure that the fail-safe mechanisms used in other countries are introduced.

Mr. Freeman : The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that safety measures and expenditure on safety, while tremendously important, are not subjects appropriate for the Gracious Speech. The day after the speech was made, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Autumn Statement, made it clear, as did my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, that British Rail and London Underground would be spending £700 million over the next three years on safety measures.

Mr. Smith : I am delighted to hear that. I hope that the Government will set down some guidelines for British Rail to ensure that it updates its railway network, so that safety is an integral part of it and that human error does not result in disasters such as those that we have seen recently.

12.12 pm

Mr. Richard Tracey (Surbiton) : I shall concentrate most of my remarks on the transport section of the Gracious Speech and particularly on how it relates to the London area and my constituency. However, in more general terms, I welcome the balanced and interesting programme of proposed legislation, with 15 major Bills, which I am sure will also be welcomed by the public. The Bill dealing with criminal justice contains provision for much heavier sentences for serious crimes, particularly rape--a crime that we all abhor.

I also welcome the greater local emphasis on planning that will be brought about by the planning and compensation Bill, which we look forward to seeing soon. The social security measures, particularly those dealing with enforcement of maintenance for children and deserted spouses, will be welcomed. There is much to be welcomed in the sections in the Gracious Speech dealing with education and measures to tidy up various lacunae in the community charge legislation passed a couple of years ago.

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The section on transport will be particularly welcomed in London and in my constituency--the road traffic Bill and the highways Bill very much so. The highways Bill has provisions for dealing with those most awkward and repetitive holes in the road caused by works conducted by public utilities. I am pleased to see that my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) is here. When he was Minister for Roads and Traffic I wrote to him about a most appalling traffic jam, which stretched for five miles from a hole that had been dug somewhere on the Wandsworth one-way system, along the whole of the A3 and into the royal borough of Kingston upon Thames, thereby inconveniencing my constituents. That was the most ludicrous and avoidable traffic jam.

My hon. Friend told me--this must be a couple of years ago--that the Government proposed to deal with that sort of incident. At last, time has been found in the legislative programme for a highways Bill, which deals with a great deal more than just this. I am sure that there is agreement on both sides of the House about how regrettable it is that public utilities are prepared to behave in this way. The road is dug up one day to deal with an electricity problem, the tarmac is put back, and then two or three days later it is dug up by the gas board and then put back again and, if we are unlucky, it will then be dug up yet again by the telephone engineers. That is ludicrous, and the Government are right to tackle the problem. I also welcome the provision, set out in the briefing material that has come our way, that, when the carriageway is reinstated it will have to be reinstated in the safest possible form. The number of cyclists is growing, and that is good. Not only do they improve their health, but because they are using bicycles instead of cars, they reduce congestion and lead pollution. If we want to encourage cyclists, we must make it safer for them to ride on the carriageways, so this provision is welcome.

Congestion is a problem in central and inner London. The road traffic Bill will make provision for what are called the red routes. I am one of the first to welcome the idea of removing illegal parkers and tightening the law to prevent illegal parking. I am glad to see it happening in central London, and I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Mr. Bowis), who unfortunately cannot be here today, is credited with much of the campaigning to persuade the Government that the red route solution is the best way forward. My hon. Friend is right : this will be a way to prevent parking that holds up the passage of buses, creates congestion, prevents efficient deliveries and so on.

However, I was alarmed, as were hundreds of my constituents, to see that the red route network as originally planned in the consultation document stretched out into my constituency, and the edge of London, and took in the A243, which runs from the M25 intersection up to Hook at the intersection of the A243 and the A3. It is not a road on which there are constant problems from illegal parking. The problem is simply that the road carries too much traffic. Motorists who are travelling on the M25 see the intersection as an opportunity to nip along the A243, through urban areas, a village and urban area in my constituency and past green fields, to arrive at the A3. The problem is one of volume ; there is rarely excessive parking on the road. When the red route idea was first mooted, my constituents and I rose up in arms. A public meeting was held and the doors had to be closed because so many

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attended to criticise the proposal. Since then, I have passed on hundreds of letters to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport from my constituents in Chessington about this matter. The idea seems, however, to remain in the Government's proposals. I accept that my right hon. Friend told me that there will be full consultation with my constituents in Chessington before the idea is taken any further, but I hope that, as a result of that consultation, he will drop this part of the red route proposals, which is so far out of London, so far out of the congested centre of London and so much on the edge of the conurbation. Red routing is not the most appropriate policy to pursue in such an area.

Hundreds of my constituents wish me to put that reservation on record. For the population of inner London or central London, however, red routes have not come too soon. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will ensure that the London traffic director will make certain that removal squads take away illegally parked vehicles from main roads where they are causing congestion and that, to increase their productivity, they do not nip round the back streets and remove the vehicles that are not causing congestion.

Mr. Tony Banks : If there is proper policing of the red route scheme, vehicles will be forced off main roads into many side streets, which are residential. The scheme will merely shift the problem somewhere else. More co-ordinated attempts must be made to deal with the problems of London's traffic, rather than coming up with one idea which, in my opinion, will only shift the problem somewhere else.

Mr. Tracey : I am in considerable agreement with the hon. Gentleman. Surely the traffic director will be the man who must mastermind the implementation of the various schemes proposed. From what I have seen of the provisions in the Bill, wardens will be provided with extra powers to clamp and to initiate removal where vehicles are causing considerable problems.

As I was saying, vehicles must be removed primarily from main routes. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) has campaigned with many of us who represent London constituencies--this has been a cross-party effort- -to free main roads for buses. We must take that further if we are to encourage people to use bus services. They will not use them if it means sitting in a constant traffic jam.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames) said, our main-line railway services are extremely good. I travelled on the railway in France during the summer and I can say that many of our services are up to the same standard as, or are even better, than, many services in France. During the summer, I encountered several delays while using French trains, which are so often presented to us as a perfect example of rail transport. Our main-line services are fine, and it is the suburban services to which I wish to draw attention.

In the south-west of London and in Surrey, within Network SouthEast, British Rail has taken the extraordinary line that it has removed services to improve efficiency. That information was received with much derision by my constituents and those of about a dozen of my Conservative colleagues who represent constituencies in the south-west of London and in Surrey. We have since been raising the matter with British Rail's management.

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The Government are making the greatest investment for 29 or 30 years in British Rail. As that investment is being made, we wish to see services managed in the best possible way. In the past two or three months, services on the Chessington line, which runs through my constituency, through Tolworth, have been reduced by the removal of 23 trains. That is unacceptable.

Some of the 23 services have been reinstated. We were told by British Rail that they would all be reinstated by the beginning of October, but I understand that there is a problem in training drivers and rail crews generally, as well as some recruitment problems. However, when we are making record investment in railway services on Network SouthEast, we expect the management to make certain that our constituents have the most efficient service they can expect. If we are to reduce congestion and remove unnecessary car travellers from the roads, travellers should be encouraged by a high standard of efficiency to use the railway or to opt for bus services. We shall not do that by removing services as an alleged means of improving efficiency.

12.27 pm

Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) : I shall not take up the remarks of the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Tracey) on the details of inner London's traffic problems. All of us who visit this great metropolis in the course of parliamentary duties have a personal interest, especially in clamping and parking problems. We are also interested in commuting and in tube networks.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) referred to the position of the Scottish National party on the steel industry. He alleged that it is similar to that of the Conservative party. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the private notice question on the Clydesdale steel works. If he reads Hansard , he will see that my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), the leader of the SNP, was criticised by the Secretary of State for Scotland for having policies which he described as wanting

"the steel industry to be controlled by Governments and by the state."-- [ Official Report , 8 November 1990 ; vol. 180, c. 115.] There is a substantial divergence between the policy of the Conservative party and that of the SNP. Perhaps the problem is that Labour party policy on the public sector aspect of the British steel industry is similar to that of the Conservative party.

Mr. Robert Hughes : I want to set the record straight. I did not say that their policy on the steel industry was the same. I said that the Government wrap themselves in the Union Jack and pretend that that solves all the problems, and that the SNP wraps itself in a tartan cloak and thinks that that solves all the problems. On the one hand there are little Englanders, and on the other little Scotlanders.

Dr. Thomas : I do not want to be drawn too much further on this point. As I understand SNP policy, it also wraps itself in the flag of the European Community. Its policy on independence in Europe advocates direct relations between Scotland and the European Community.

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Mr. McAvoy : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the SNP really wanted to put the case for the Scottish steel industry, it would have a spokesman in the Chamber today?

Dr. Thomas : The hon. Gentleman is well aware that the SNP and Plaid Cymru have a fraternal relationship, and that in debates such as this we rotate as a joint parliamentary group. That facilitates both our position and that of the Chair. I do not speak on behalf of the SNP about the state of the Scottish steel industry ; it would not be for me to do so as I come from a country whose steelmaking capacity has been largely retained.

I wish to devote my remarks to the major issue raised by the Secretary of State when he opened the debate, which is the Uruguay round, the multilateral trade agreement and, especially, the implications of GATT for the major industry that affects 80 per cent. of the land mass of the United Kingdom--agriculture and forestry. It is a basic industry, and the policies that affect it have implications not only for food processing and consumption but for the shape of the environment in the hill and other areas throughout the counties of Britain. It also has important implications for the rural economy and the structure of the countryside.

Those matters have so far been neglected in the debate on the Uruguay round, which has concentrated mainly on the free market emphasis of the Government's policy. The Government support, or at least are moving towards supporting, the American position on the amount of agricultural support cuts that they believe to be necessary. They have pioneered an attitude in the European Community negotiations that is rather different from the less pioneering and less innovative attitude that they have shown in other policy areas. In this area, the United Kingdom is communautaire par excellence, whereas in other areas it is lagging behind. The Government's line is that they are taking the lead in a policy to reduce agricultural support, liberate markets and promote free trade. They have entered the Uruguay round with a position similar to that of the United States.

The agriculture industry and the socio-economic implications of agricultural support have been left to the French and German Agriculture Ministers. They have argued, in protracted discussions, about the socio- economic impact of any reductions that the Government want to make. The publicity from the Government, the Community and the Commission following the final agreement among farm Ministers does not clearly state the implications of an overall 30 per cent. cut in agricultural support for the sectors in each part of the agriculture industry, and especially the implications for the overall income in the hill, livestock and other sectors.

I speak mainly for the sort of agriculture that takes place in the part of the world that I know best and the hill farming area in which I live and work when I am not here. Our concern is that the decisons about agricultural support cuts have been taken without proper consideration of the implications. That was made clear at a meeting that I and my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Mo n (Mr. Jones) had with officials of the agriculture directorate of the Commission. The figure discussed by Ministers was based on global support and there was no analysis of sector implications.

The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, in response to my intervention, repeated a point made by the

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Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food after the agreement was concluded--that the reduction of 30 per cent. was across the board and backdated to 1986, so that the actual reduction would not be substantial. There has been a significant increase in the sheep flock since 1986, and certainly in the CAP expenditure on the sheep meat sector, so a 30 per cent. cut backdated to 1986 could be the equivalent of a 50 per cent. cut.

We have been told that there might be an overall cut of just under 5 per cent. in the livestock sector generally. I want to put that in the context of farmers' incomes. In the United Kingdom as a whole, they have already suffered a substantial decline of nearly 10 per cent. in real terms--after allowing for inflation--since the early 1980s. Over that same period, there has been a 30 per cent. decrease in employment and a major cut in investment. A recent study by agriculture economics experts at Aberystwyth university college showed that 50 per cent. of Welsh farmers have an income of £10,000 a year or less, which clearly shows that the industry cannot tolerate a further reduction in incomes.

What are the implications for the livestock sector following the crises that confronted it this year? I refer to the much-publicised conflict with French lamb producers, low market prices in the late summer and early autumn, the dislocation in transferring from the sheep variable premium to the annual premium, the knock-on effect of bovine spongiform encephalopathy on interchangeable meat such as lamb, the droughts in both France and Britain, and the problems of feeding in the United Kingdom. All those factors squeezing through together, combined with the effects of high interest rates on agriculture and all other industries, may imply further reductions in farm incomes as a consequence of the latest GATT round. What policies will the Government and the Community follow to maintain farmers' incomes in that situation?

Whatever arguments there may be for reducing export subsidies and for liberalising agricultural trade worldwide, the arguments remain for maintaining the already low incomes of hill farmers. Neither the Government nor anyone else in the Community has responded to the problem.

The Agriculture Commissioner, Mr. MacSharry, made the general statement that no reductions in incomes will result from the Uruguay round, but how is that pledge to be fulfilled by the Commission and member states? What attitude will the Government take in further negotiations on reforming the CAP? Reference is clearly made to that in the Gracious Speech, in the context of the Uruguay round. I accept some of the criticisms made today about the direction in which agricultural support is going and how little of it reaches the farm gate and producers themselves, but we must have assurances that farmers' incomes and livelihoods will not be adversely affected, after the crises they have already faced this year, by further cuts--led by a Government who are so committed to free market forces and to reducing public expenditure.

There is an important link between that and the rest of the Government's policies. They cannot favour enterprise generally, yet denude the countryside of the same opportunity--which the existing fabric of farming, by diversifying into other industries and services, can exploit.

Similarly, if the Government have green policies, it makes no sense to have national parks but not to have enough sheep to graze them so that they continue to look

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the way they do now. It makes no sense not to maintain the fabric of the countryside, such as dry stone walls, which is maintained by agriculture. A green policy requires an agricultural policy, and the maintenance of the countryside's economy and society. It requires 80 or 90 per cent. of land to be farmed in an attractive and ecologically sound way.

For those reasons, farming organisations such as the Farmers Union of Wales and the National Farmers Union welcome the Government's extensification proposals to reduce stocking rates. They welcome the strong environmental component in the hill livestock compensatory allowance and are looking forward to strengthening that component in discussions on the allowance, but there must be a balance between the environmental objectives of agriculture and the maintenance of viable production units through an end price, albeit at a lower level of production, which will give incentives, especially to the young farmer, to produce quality stock through good breeding practices and effective use of land.

This is a good time for the Government to take stock of agriculture in relation to the fabric of rural society and in the context of European Community proposals, and the Commission's document on the future of rural society, which was published in 1988. It is important for the Community to ensure that the overall objectives on GATT and free trade do not cut across its declared socio-economic objectives for rural society, as set out in that document.

The Government have an opportunity to show concern. I am well aware that they have emphasised the role of free market forces and have difficulty relating to subsidies or maintaining a market through planning and ensuring supply mechanisms which control the level of production. However, in agriculture a free market cannot operate in the interests of the countryside, the farming community, consumers or the maintenance of the environment. For those reasons, the Government have to ensure that their agricultural policy is not dominated by free market thinking.

The responses that I have so far received from Ministers to questions on this issue have not been satisfactory. I assure the House and Agriculture Ministers from various parts of the Kingdom who may read the report of this debate that we shall pursue this matter until we have a clear response from the Government about their intention to maintain the fabric of rural society and our agricultural industry and not to allow free market philosophy to turn our countryside into a desert.

12.42 pm

Sir William Shelton (Streatham) : I represent an inner London constituency, and like my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Tracey), who represents an outer London seat, I welcome the emphasis given to transport in the autumn statement. In a recent press release I learnt that total investment will rise to nearly £16 billion over the next three years, which is an increase of £1.5 billion over last year.

Like other Conservative Members, I have sometimes been confronted at public meetings with the statement that the Department of Transport is run by the road lobby. The hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) mentioned that. I was so incensed as a result of a recent meeting that I asked a parliamentary question in July about Government

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investment in public transport and, with the help of the House of Commons Library statistical section, I got some interesting answers, which I shall reveal to the House.

At 1990-91 prices, the annual average spent by the Labour Government from 1974 to 1979 was £1,084 million. The annual average for the Conservative Government in the past 10 years is £1,021 million. Rightly or wrongly--I am not making any judgments--the Conservative Government have spent less than did the previous Labour Government on roads. Regrettably, they also spent less on British Rail. Labour spent an annual average of £629 million ; the Conservatives have spent £566 million. However, as a London Member, I am delighted to say that this Government spent much more on London Underground : the Labour Government, between 1974 and 1979, spent an annual average of £147 million, while the Conservative Government have spent £220 million.

Mr. John P. Smith : I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman has drawn these facts to our attention ; however, he is talking in cash terms.

Sir William Shelton : No, I am not.

Mr. Smith : I do apologise.

Sir William Shelton : Let me say again that these are 1990-91 prices. The statistical section in the Library--to which I owe a great debt --worked out the figures for me : I could not possibly have done it myself.

The Department of Transport's predictions for spending on roads in England in 1990-93 show an increase in spending from £1,021 million to £1,755 million on an annual average--up by two thirds. British Rail spending is forecast to increase from £566 million to £1,188 million--to double, at constant prices. The figure for London Underground warms my heart : an annual average of £220 million is forecast to increase to £658 million--up three times.

This brings me to what--as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will know--is one of my most earnest desires : to bring the Northern line to Streatham. That proposal was in the recommendations of the consultants, and I hope that, with such a vast increase in spending, it will not be long before my right hon. Friend can make an announcement. Earlier this year I had a helpful meeting with Mr. Tunnicliffe, the managing director of London Underground. What he told me at the time made sense. He said that it would not be possible to take on any new clients--for instance, to build the extension to Streatham--until we had reduced the congestion in the centre. We can all understand that, especially as the Northern line would be involved. That is why I welcome so much my right hon. Friend's statement about the funding of the east-west cross route and the safeguarding of the Hackney-Chelsea north-south route. I hope that my right hon. Friend agrees that that will reduce congestion, thus opening the door for the arrival of the Northern line in Streatham. I had some discussions with a helpful British Rail underground executive, who told me that, after those two massive tasks had been undertaken, Streatham would rank equal third with something else--although he refused to tell me what that was. He did tell me that the feasibility study on bringing the line through to Streatham and on to

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Crystal Palace--I would prefer Croydon, but I would settle for Crystal Palace--was being updated, and would be ready by the end of this year. I shall await the end of the year with great interest, hoping for a Christmas present.

I cannot accept that limitations should be placed on the use of the motor car--except, perhaps, in 20 or even 50 years' time--but, for environmental reasons, we must provide a better choice of public service transport. I cannot stress that too strongly. The way to stop people using their cars is to give them jolly good underground and bus services. If my right hon. Friend comes to Streatham and sees all the cars travelling both north and south--whose panting owners wish that they were on the underground--I am sure that he will meet my most earnest wishes.

Let me now take the opportunity to raise some urgent local issues--of great interest to Streatham, although I fear that they are of less interest to other hon. Members. When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport made his excellent decision not to proceed with road building plans in my constituency, the junction improvements and road widenings that were also contained in the recommendations were left in limbo. Consequently, Lambeth council, rightly or wrongly, has served blight notices on all the houses within 200m of the south circular and the A23 through Streatham. This has caused deep consternation and great concern to many of my constituents.

I wrote to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Mr. Atkins) in July when he was a Minister in the Department and asked him to resolve the matter quickly. I shall not conceal the fact that I have received no reply to my letter. Since then I have telephoned the office of my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Chope), but I have still had no reply. The matter is urgent. I hope that it will be dealt with soon.

I wrote also about a proposal for a development line down Streatham high road. This may hinder the rebuilding of Pratts, our most famous store, which has closed. Again, I have received no reply. I understand that the Department of Transport advised Lambeth council in April that it is to end the agency agreement whereby Lambeth carried out work for the Department. The Department will carry it out directly. I have no view about that ; I heard about it only indirectly. Nevertheless, I hope that consultations will take place. But the Department's wish to close the gaps in the central reservation down Streatham high road is causing consternation. In due course I shall write to the Minister about it and let him know the views of some of my constituents, to which I am sure he will pay attention.

I welcome the autumn statement. I welcome also what my right hon. Friend said about the east-west cross route and the north-south route. Once again, I ask him to ensure that an underground line to Streatham is constructed.

12.51 pm

Mr. Thomas McAvoy (Glasgow, Rutherglen) : I make no apology for returning to economic and industrial matters. The Government have failed in their duty. Although they benefited from North sea oil revenues and from the privatisation of the nation's publicly owned assets, the country faces a recession, though the Chancellor dares not speak its name. So much for the Government's economic miracle. The latest verdict on

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their economic miracle was given during the early hours of this morning. I refer to the by-election results in Bradford, North and Bootle. We look forward to that verdict being repeated in the by-elections at Paisley.

The Government's economic miracle is based on fraud. They try desperately to convince us that they are in control of the economy. Nothing could be further from the truth. Past Conservative Governments had integrity and standing, but the present Government lack both those attributes. For example, on the last day of the Labour party conference the Government announced a major new economic policy. It was a desperate attempt to steal the headlines and make a party political point. Moreover, the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) revealed that for five years he had urged the Cabinet to agree to entry into the exchange rate mechanism. The Government's economic miracle is also shown to be a sham on account of the resignation from the Government of the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe). His resignation was due to a split over a particularly important issue. These are not party political points but signs that the economy is adrift. The Government are cornered and are struggling, but they do not know what to do. They have no strategy or philosophy, and the country is paying the price. A series of economic indicators show that the Government are in trouble. They promised to pursue firm financial policies designed to reduce inflation and facilitate the growth of employment. What have they delivered? They have delivered a recession. Inflation is 10.9 per cent., unemployment has risen for six consecutive months and there is a current account trade deficit. If a Labour Government were running a fraction of the current trade deficit, there would be gloom and doom in all the financial papers and much talk about Labour's so-called economic incompetence.

The current account deficit for 1989 was £19.1 billion. The Chancellor's forecasts show that our trade is badly out of balance. I have noticed recently that many Conservative Members quote various economic indicators from 1981 to date. They conveniently omit the two years between 1979 and 1981, when the Government destroyed our manufacturing base, and we have never recovered from that. It is a problem that will take a long time to correct, and there is no sign that the Government will do so.

Unemployment is rising fast, inflation is high and, as if that were not bad enough, investment is falling and output is stagnating. A recent CBI survey showed that business confidence is at its lowest for 10 or 11 years, and that the rate of investment is at its lowest for many years. Manufacturing investment in the second quarter of 1990 was lower than in the previous quarter. We are in recession, but the Government do not seem to be taking any action to rectify it. My constituency has suffered quite considerably under the Conservative Government, especially from the attack on manufacturing industry. The Hoover plant at Cambuslang, where I worked, used to employ more than 5,000 people. It was a busy, successful factory that made goods for sale and export, but the Government's blitz on manufacturing industry between 1979 and 1981 did not help. It now has a work force of a little more than 1,000, and the current policy of high interest rates is hitting the sales of Hoover goods, thereby causing recession and difficulties for the company and its work force.

The Clydesbridge steelworks in my constituency employs about 150 workers, compared with 2,000 or 3,000

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in its heyday. Nevertheless, it is an important, integral part of the Scottish steel industry. Its highly skilled work force produces high-class goods. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) will deal more than adequately with British Steel's announcement affecting Clydesdale tube works. The Scottish steel industry is of interest to us all, and the lack of Government support is disgraceful. They are condoning British Steel buying steel tubes from abroad, thereby worsening the balance of payments deficit. British workers will be paid off, with consequent rises in social security payments.

Unemployment in my constituency varies from 10 per cent. in the so-called good areas to 14 per cent. in the bad ones. In other words, while we hear about an economic miracle, there are no signs of it in my constituency.

I regret that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is not here--I accept that it is a long day for him--but I have no hesitation in saying in his absence that we have in his job a man who is dogmatically opposed to any involvement by his Department in key sectors of British industry. He is taking a hands-off approach. As has been said, he is standing on the sidelines watching the game. My hon. Friends and I fear that the right hon. Gentleman is in the job only so that he can be a yes man for the Prime Minister, helping to keep the wet and dry balance in the Cabinet, and to cast a vote for the Prime Minister when she is in any danger in that forum. The CBI is establishing links with organisations throughout the British political spectrum, rather than just within the Conservative party, and that is as it should be. The CBI has expressed extreme unhappiness with current Government policy. At its recent conference in Glasgow, it made some devastating comments about that policy, which we in the Opposition cannot dismiss simply as party political attacks, bearing in mind the quarter from which they came. That and other criticism must focus attention on the Department of Trade and Industry because while for many years, indeed since the last war, the DTI has been crucially involved with industry, we are now seeing that Department withdraw from the industrial scene. For example, the Department will spend £1.5 billion in the coming financial year. Since 1987, its expenditure has fallen by almost a third as the result of a reduction of nearly £700 million given in support to aerospace, shipbuilding, steel and vehicle manufacturing. Clearly, the DTI is narrowing its focus as it views its role in British industry. The economy needs a thrusting Department of Trade and Industry which, without dogma, gets itself involved with any aspect of industrial and manufacturing life that benefits the nation.

There can be no doubt that the United Kingdom economy faces a difficult year. The recession is here and the full inflationary pressures have yet to be felt. The task of striking a balance between those aspects will be more difficult, and I accept that life has been made more difficult for the Government by the rise in oil prices. I hope that that rise will not constantly be trotted out as the great excuse for the state of the economy.

All forms of transport should be linked and one should not be discriminated against. We are told that £4 billion will be spent to improve London's rail services. Bearing in mind the fact that each hon. Member must represent his or her own corner, I question why no money is available to upgrade the killer A1 and A77 roads in Scotland. I may be told that that is a matter for the Secretary of State for

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Scotland. I accept that some work has been done to upgrade the A74 to motorway status, but more must be done.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) said, we are told that no money is available to electrify the Edinburgh to Aberdeen rail line and that funds are not available now for the much-vaunted high-speed InterCity rail link between Scotland and London. The Government make great play of the money that they are spending and say that in relation to need, everything must be considered in balance. The Secretary of State for Transport should get together more closely with the Secretary of State for Scotland to ensure that any money put into transport is fairly spread throughout the United Kingdom with Scotland at the forefront.

1.5 pm

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham) : I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. Favell) on going through the departure lounge as a Parliamentary Private Secretary with more publicity than I have as a PPS and a Minister combined. His expression of support for the Chancellor, even though he has stopped being his PPS, is a sign of solidarity within the Government that may or may not be copied by others.

The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas), talking on behalf of the Scottish National party about the steel industry, has shown how disgraceful it is for the Scottish nationalists to claim to be the Scottish National party, let alone a national party, when they are not present for a debate on industry, given the sad news about the steel industry in Scotland.

When I was working in the British Steel Corporation, there was a tension between Wales and Scotland over strip mills, which has been there ever since the decision was made to split the strip mills. It is peculiar that the nationalists can agree to have a Welshman speak for the Scots on a day like today.

I shall say very little about roads and transport, because I hope that next week I shall be called to speak early in the debate on road casualty reductions. I greatly welcome that debate.

I am pleased to speak towards the end of this debate, because it allows me to make suggestions that people in various Departments may come across as they scan Hansard to see if there is anything relevant to them.

It gives me an opportunity at the beginning of the parliamentary year to make some overall points. First, we must take the family perspective and life cycle into account in more of our policies. Family policy is not just about money or social security, although money is important for those in poverty. It is about trying to ensure that our education and health systems and our anti-crime proposals take account of generational changes and responsibilities of one towards another within families and within communities and between generations.

The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy rightly talked about rural districts. Rural action projects in Northern Ireland show how, in all the less favoured parts of the United Kingdom, we must be concerned not just about farmers' incomes, but about the well-being and the quality of life of people, especially women. Too often when developing policies, we consider how they affect men and

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