House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Nov 1990

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their working lives, rather than those women who generally carry the burden of caring for dependants. By trying to raise family confidence and competence we can ensure that other caring services mesh in, with self-interest but without selfishness.

When I stopped being a Minister, I was greeted by descriptions in various newspapers of exactly what certain journalists thought about me. If trying to cut casualties on the roads and trying to overcome transport problems for people with handicaps exposes me to scorn, my shoulders are broad enough to carry it. I was surprised when one newspaper gave an extra half- page to one of its journalists who had hurt his back for a time for his description of how difficult it was to get around, when I had had remarkably little support from the same newspaper and others in trying to overcome the difficulties that many people have, sometimes for a lifetime or for decades.

It is important to take a robust attitude in Europe when the Community starts making proposals expected to be against the interests of people in this country, let alone other European countries. I make passing reference to the European Commission's proposal that the voluntary driving of minibuses should be banned. Its proposal was that everyone driving a minibus, especially a community minibus, should have a public service vehicle licence. The reason that that proposal matters more in the United Kingdom is that people here could drive minibuses with an ordinary licence. We had 65,000 more minibuses than our European partners and for every minibus we had six to 10 volunteer drivers, which meant 10 million or more welfare journeys a year for the elderly, children, disabled people, students, affinity groups and people going to work together. Sadly, on that issue we received little help from people outside a small core group.

I pay tribute to the Department of Transport's disabled transport policy advisory unit and the small team within the Department who have helped to ensure that the United Kingdom leads the world in many ways.

I do not want people to think that it is only legislation that makes a difference. We need the commitment to try to fill the gaps in provision and so to improve people's standard of living. I am talking not just about material improvements but about improvements in people's quality of life.

It is good to see the low-cost accident remedial measures coming into force around the country. It is also good that we have been trying things out and extending their application if they work. The same must apply to the idea of a common currency throughout Europe. I have been interested to note that, since my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) resigned as deputy Prime Minister, the Labour party has spoken with two voices--sometimes even on the same day. The shadow Chanceller of the Exchequer says that he is against movements towards a common currency, while the Leader of the Opposition says that he is in favour of it. Our occasional debates about leadership in the Conservative party make me wonder how it is possible for Labour Members and their supporters to put up with their existing leader, when everyone knows that their deputy leader would be rather better at doing the job. That is one of the difficulties that Opposition Members must sort out for themselves, and it need not concern us in our debate on the Queen's Speech.

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The two by-election results yesterday may have shown the Conservative party to be somewhat out of fashion, but I suspect that having reached the low-tide mark, as we rise up we shall witness the debates within the Labour party becoming rather more articulate and clear--which is more than can be said for the speech of the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown). Despite having been given repeated opportunities to address them, he managed to duck the important European issues.

I want to deal with environmental protection. The Department of Transport deserves credit for having produced at least two editions of its booklet "Transport and the Environment".

Mr. Prescott : The hon. Gentleman produced them.

Mr. Bottomley : It was my hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire, North-West (Sir D. Mitchell) who originally had the idea. We must persuade people to consider the consequences of having better railways to give them the choice of leaving their cars or of having better roads to keep traffic out of residential areas. We must seek to reconcile some of the important arguments in the debate and then examine the results. If we do that, we shall be able to have a better informed debate. Okehampton was a good example. We had decades of delay and then, when the decision was eventually made, all the commentating media stopped taking an interest because it was obvious that the right decision had been made. The arguments had all been the wrong way, but no one would admit it.

The way in which it was possible to fit in a road between Maiden Castle and Dorchester provides another good example of how environmental interests have been taken into account.

The environmental impact matters to a road scheme in my constituency--the approach road to the east London river crossing. While on that subject, I must say that the Labour party has not changed its spots. It is curious that, when local councillors in Greenwich wanted to reappoint a barrister to the inquiry on the bridge--which I understand is greatly welcomed by Labour authorities to the north of the Thames although it is objected to by Greenwich council and of no help to my constituents--the announcement was made by two prospective Labour candidates. Of all the councillors who could have been chosen, the two prospective Labour candidates were picked. It looks as though we are talking about £67,000 in their favour.

Similarly, when Greenwich last had the chance of appointing members to the health authority, it did not just appoint those same two prospective Labour candidates ; it also appointed Nick Raynsford, Labour's prospective candidate for the Greenwich constituency. That is the kind of political bias that one may expect from the next Labour Government.

I remind the House that I was elected a year after the last Labour Government came to office. People discovered then that we were not having milk and honey all round.

Mr. John P. Smith : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Bottomley : I had better not, because others wish to speak.

Mr. Smith : It is a valid point.

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Mr. Bottomley : That may be so. The hon. Gentleman should intervene on his hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) if he wishes to make his point.

We may have a robust debate on these matters, and that is to be welcomed. The Queen's Speech refers to some of the international problems. It is absolutely clear that we should extend our brand of flexible politics, in which we can have ups and downs in the polls and in votes as well as having a flexible economic process, so that we do not find the shelves bare. We shall find that there are fewer wars within countries and fewer battles between them. It is a long time since democratic countries last fought each other. It is a long time since countries that allowed more than one political party resorted to civil war because of the result of an election. Twelve years ago, I was taken to El Salvador to try to help delay the assassination of an archbishop and to try to reduce the risk of assassination of the Jesuits who run the central American university. Sadly, there was not a great deal of success, but at least it showed that Britain took an interest in human rights and in undemocratic regimes. We sometimes underestimate the influence of the United Kingdom, this Parliament and individual Members travelling overseas to show that it is not just the BBC that matters but the political process and some of the economic freedoms that we have managed to enshrine in our system.

One of the messages that will go out from the Queen's Speech debate--beyond Iraq and Kuwait, terrible as those events are--is that, by spreading the idea of democracy, open society and robust debate and disagreement, we shall do a great deal more for future generations around the world than if we confine ourselves solely to the material standard of living in Britain. I look forward to speaking in further debates during the year on items in the Queen's Speech.

I hope that together we shall find ways of reducing avoidable distress, handicap and disadvantage, and that the Labour party will join in with support for more Tory policies as we move towards the next election.

1.15 pm

Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North) : As the House will expect in view of yesterday's announcement, most of my speech will deal with the steel industry. However, I shall make a few observations on other matters. Today's debate has ranged wide--from the evils of the Commission in Brussels to the undoubted virtue of the cracks in Streatham high street.

Perhaps I should begin by referring to the missing fighters for the Scottish steel industry. I am much too polite and it is not my style to mention that some Scottish National party Members are missing. I realise that we are all busy people. But as the matter was raised by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) I feel entitled to make some comments. In the last few years I have been told by the Scottish nationalists that the Labour party cannot possibly throw all its weight behind the Scottish steel industry because we are led by a Welshman. So to learn today that because of reciprocal arrangements the official SNP spokesman on the Scottish steel industry is a Welsh nationalist came as a shock. The two parties intend to fight to the death for the Scottish steel industry. I promise the House that I shall do my

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homework and immediately read all the documents on the Scottish steel industry issued by the Welsh Nationalist Party. It should make interesting reading.

The hon. Members for Crawley (Mr. Soames) and for Stockport (Mr. Favell) raised the national question of the development of the market and so on. I shall make only one observation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) said, nation states came about by a collection of principalities, cities or, as in the case of the United Kingdom, nations coming together. The dynamo that drove the emergence of nation states during their great period of development and the cement that held them together even when the nation state included different countries was the market. In Europe now we are seeing precisely the same emergence of political structures, some more embryonic than others, as a result of the development of the market. Commitment to the market in Europe and the need for superstructural political response to intervene on occasions at that level in the market are called into question. The emergence of that crucial element of the political dimension of Europe is swimming with the tide of history and ultimately the Prime Minister's views on the social charter and on Europe will be washed up on the shores of history like the anachronism that they are.

The hon. Members for Crawley and for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) tended to implicate the Labour party in some of the unfortunate events of the past fortnight in Europe. On one occasion we were accused by the hon. Member for Crawley of dividing the unity of the House behind the Prime Minister in her negotiations in Europe. But the lack of unity in the Government undermined her. The Prime Minister does not believe that. Every time I ask her why someone resigned she tells me that it is because they agreed on everything and there was agreement on policy.

It should be noted as a historical fact that it has become a peculiar characteristic of the modern Conservative party that, whenever a spirit of universal agreement breaks out, it manifests itself in mass resignations. Next week, we should watch the space that has been left by the deputy Prime Minister because it will be interesting to see who fills it.

The hon. Member for Stockport ditched Adam Smith as his ideological buttress, presumably because he is a whingeing Scotsman, and called to the aid of the party Richard Cobden. Cobden may have been right in 1845, but that does not make him right in 1990. Those who are locked into the free trade movement of the 19th century, and neolithic Marxists who think that the solutions of 1848 must be correct in 1990, are both wide of the mark and devoid of any realistic or relevant analysis of the modern condition.

Yesterday's decision to lay off 1,200 workers and close the Clydesdale tube works is a devastating blow to my area. However, it did not come as a bolt from the blue. In my maiden speech, I warned about the dangers of privatisation and the consequences for Clydesdale tube works as well as for Ravenscraig and Dalzell. After the so-called guarantees of 3 December 1987 from the then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, I warned that not only had there been no mention of Clydesdale, but that we had had not guarantees for a few years but a timetable for the execution of the steel industry in Scotland. When

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the Act privatising the steel industry was passing through the House, I, my hon. Friends the Members for Motherwell, South (Dr. Bray) and for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) and others warned of what would happen if the steel industry were privatised. Motherwell district council commissioned a report, the Arthur Young report, which I commend to any hon. Member interested in the steel industry in Scotland, which predicted almost to the month what would happen. Ministers cannot say that they did not know--they did not want to know. They were driven on by ideology in hot pursuit of the aim, come hell or high water, of privatising the steel industry. The tragedy is that the hell will be not for the Minister but for the people around Motherwell and in Lanarkshire. It was not just ideology either. The suspicion lingers that the Government wanted to rid themselves of those turbulent priests, the defenders of the Scottish steel industry, who had defied the Prime Minister and Sir Robert Scholey for almost a decade, and kept Ravenscraig open. Privatisation was the vehicle that allowed the Government to achieve, after 10 years, a relaxation of pressure from the political defence of the steel industry in Scotland. This great tragedy was predictable but not inevitable. If the Government had been interested, had listened or had acted, the closure could have been avoided.

That hammer blow to the steel industry yesterday means 1,200 jobs lost. It means 1,200 families in Lanarkshire who will have enforced idleness as a Christmas present, courtesy of Sir Robert Scholey. Instead of white Christmases, they will have black Christmases, courtesy of Black Bob. When Conservative Members talk about whingeing and moaning Scots and the Evening Standard talks about subsidy junkies, we have to ask ourselves what kind of people they are talking about. These are hard-headed, hard-working, realistic people.

Representatives of the work force met the Secretary of State on Monday. Instead of the £100 million of investment that is needed, they asked for only £10 million to £12 million, a drop in the ocean for British Steel but enough to have retained the competitive edge of the tube division of British Steel. It is a work force which has increased quality, productivity and delivery times over the past three years. By its own efforts, it has increased the yield of clapped-out mills from 72 per cent. to 82 per cent. If there had been an investment of £10 million, the figure would have been 90 per cent. Anyone who knows anything about the steel industry will realise that that is a fantastic figure, even with modern equipment. Despite four years of effort, market share declined. Why was that? The answer can be given in two words--investment starvation. The commitment and effort of the work force was not matched and reflected by British Steel's top management. That is why there is a feeling of betrayal. British Steel added insult to injury yesterday when it gave as an excuse for the closure of the tube mills that it was cheaper to buy pipes from abroad. Why, I ask the Government, is it cheaper to buy them from Manussman in Germany, Dolmini in Italy or Valourec in France? It is cheaper because the efforts of the work forces in those plants have been matched by the investment of their companies and the research and development of their Governments. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline, East referred to investment and research and development earlier in the debate.

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The original crime of British Steel of neglect and lack of investment becomes the very excuse for the crime of closure of the Clydesdale plant which was announced yesterday. There will be 1,200 families involved initially, but the scale of devastation will be much worse than that. More than 700 more will be affected in April at the Ravenscraig strip works. That is a work force with a productivity claim of 2.33 man hours per tonne. It is not just the best in Scotland or in Britain, but the best productivity figure by that standard in Europe.

All the members of that work force are being ditched and the Secretary of State for Scotland is doing nothing. The right hon. and learned Gentleman should be ascertaining the identity of the prospective purchasers to whom British Steel was talking. Secondly, he should be demanding information from British Steel to enable him, the Scottish Office and Locate in Scotland to contact them. Thirdly, he should be facilitating an exchange of views on potential purchase. Fourthly, he should be making it plain to British Steel that if that results in a potential purchase of the Clydesdale tube works, it will be forced to sell that as a going concern. If not, the monopoly position of British Steel will allow it to abuse the market and to close a works which could be profitable and which could be purchased. If the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Trade and Industry do not do that, they will be colluding with British Steel in closing a potential producer for the North sea market and throwing hundreds or thousands of people on to the dole queue, and many into misery. Once again, as they have done for 10 years, the Government are crippling the balance of trade by ensuring that the extension of works in the North sea will take place not with the products of British steel plants but with those of our major industrial competitors.

1.27 pm

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : My hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) need not have apologised to me for taking a little more time than he said he would need. The problems which he outlined are great ones for his constituents and for the works at Clydesdale, and he presented us with a graphic picture. It is clear that, in recent years, workers, no matter how much effort they have expended, have been betrayed by the Government. So much for the problems of success that economic Ministers are always telling us we have to deal with nowadays.

I must apologise to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry for missing his opening speech. I had problems with London Transport. I am not making it up as I go along. Unlike the hon. Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames), I was not wandering up and down a District line underground train looking for the restaurant coach. I was experiencing the usual signalling delays in the Whitechapel area, which everyone who uses the District line experiences.

I waited three quarters of an hour on Forest Gate station for the Network SouthEast service from Gidea park to come through. No announcement was made. Nothing was said until it was obvious that the train was going to be half an hour late. We waited 27 minutes before we were told that there would be a delay. When I spoke to the staff, they said, "We are sorry, but no one told us. There is a VDU at Forest Gate station, but it is not in use because there are no qualified staff."

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The Minister is coming to Stratford station on 23 November--which I welcome--and I intend to ask him many questions about the service from Southend and Gidea Park to Liverpool Street station. It needs many dramatic improvements. It is nonsense that, while people are waiting at Forest Gate station whose trains have been cancelled, other trains whisk through on their way to Liverpool Street. There is no flexibility in the system for those trains to stop and pick up those people and take them to Stratford or Liverpool Street. Whether it is incompetence, inefficiency, poor resources or bad management, I do not know, but I gave the waiting passengers at Forest Gate station the benefit of a much longer speech even than I would make now if I had the time to do so. They asked me to pass on to the Secretary of State for Transport their extreme anger about what happened this morning and to point out that it happens regularly to passengers who have to travel to central London.

Transport efficiency assists industrial efficiency, so it is right that the two subjects should have been linked today. The CBI has pointed out that congestion costs industry and commerce in London about £7.5 billion a year. It is an enormous waste of resources within our capital city. It is not surprising that London's transport system is in near to chaos. It is overpriced, overcrowded, under-resourced and under pressure.

London has the highest fares in Europe, which lead people who have access to private vehicles to bring them on to the roads. It also leads to an upsurge in commuter coaches, which contribute to the problems in central London. Privatised bus routes are dipping around side roads--rat-running and bringing even more problems. There is insufficient road maintenance and unco-ordinated road works. All those factors reduce London traffic to moving more slowly than it did at the turn of the century.

I welcome the Bill announced in the Gracious Speech that will implement the Horne report. It is much overdue. Horne reported in 1986 and made 73 recommendations, so it is about time they were implemented. Of course, we will have to read the small print, but I am sure that the Government can expect a great deal of support for that measure.

I recently read that 600,000 holes are dug in London each year, but I do not know who went around counting them. It reminds me of the old Beatles song about how many holes it took to fill the Albert hall. If someone could go around counting all those holes, surely it is possible for someone to co -ordinate all the work that leads to 600, 000 holes being dug in London each year. I welcome improvements in London's infrastructure, but not in the unco-ordinated way in which it is undertaken.

London presents a dismal picture--it is unplanned, unco-ordinated and unpleasant. The quality of London life has deteriorated dramatically during the past decade. The Association of London Authorities recently commissioned the Henley centre for forecasting to study the problems of London, especially in the light of 1992 and the opportunities and problems that the Single European Act will present for the capital city. The centre highlighted London's poor transport infrastructure as a major constraint on the capital's economic growth and cultural attractiveness. It stressed the unco-ordinated framework of transport in London.

We keep returning to the co-ordination of transport. The Henley centre asked Mass Observation to conduct a

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poll of Londoners, and it was not surprised to discover that 93 per cent. of London's citizens felt that traffic congestion had worsened during the past 10 years. More ominously, 77 per cent. believed that it would get worse in the 1990s. Some 67 per cent. wanted more restrictions on the use of private cars in London and, I am glad to report 64 per cent. believed that there should be a strategic planning body for the whole of London, along the lines of the old London county council or the Greater London council. It is a great pleasure to say that the Labour party is officially committed to the creating of a new Londonwide strategic local authority for the capital city.

Nowhere is there a more vital and obvious need for co-ordination and planning than in transport, but the Government despise planning and strategic thinking. Why is London's transport in such an appalling state? I believe that it is because the Government take no overview of it. If one wants to examine models of London's transport structures, one must go to Olympia and York, because they have in effect taken over as the capital's planning authority, which is disgraceful.

For the people of London, who are so hard-pressed as a consequence of the Government's unco-ordinated transport policies, relief will come only with the election of a Labour Government. One is delighted that that day has been hastened by the by-election results last night in Bradford, North and Bootle. The skids are under the Government, and Londoners will rejoice when they are thrown into the dustbin of history.

1.35 pm

Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East) : I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), who took less time than I expected, but who I am sure had much more to tell the House about the real problems of London's transport. Although today's debate is concerned with both industry and transport, I shall concentrate on the latter. I am sure that, like myself, the Secretary of State has much to say on a whole range of issues, but there is not sufficient time to debate them all today, even with my hon. Friend's generosity in resuming his place so quickly.

In examining the transport crisis, I want to look for areas of agreement rather than disagreement, and thus further confound the Secretary of State, who discovered, when we appeared together on a television programme recently, that there was some agreement between us in respect of safety, but who predicted that it would not last more than 12 hours. I assure him that it will.

Clearly there is a crisis facing our transport system, however it is measured, and most of the bodies that have reported on it--the Church, the Trades Union Congress, the Confederation of British Industry, consumer groups, local authorities, the Select Committee, and the media--conclude that the system is inadequate, for whatever reason. That is a matter of general agreement.

There is general agreement also that it is the most congested transport system of any developed nation in Europe, as well as being the most expensive and environmentally damaging. There is concern about the quality of service and the safety that it provides. It is

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underfunded, underinvested and underperforming. I have sought to justify those claims in previous debates, and I shall not reiterate those arguments now.

Transport has become a major political issue, not because of what politicians are telling the public, but, despite their reassurances, because of the public's daily experiences on the Underground, at airports, on trains or buses, or even travelling in their own cars. The public just believe that Britain's transport system could be better than it is.

The Secretary of State rightly claims record levels of investment, and it is true that, in both absolute and real terms, there has been a tremendous increase. But that comes after 10 years of underinvestment, and the country's transport stock has grown a great deal older. Most of the stock on Network SouthEast is 19 years old. One problem is that the Treasury has been running our transport system for too long--under both Labour and Conservative

Administrations. It is time for a change of thinking. Long-term transport investment cannot be fitted into the two-year span required by the Treasury, regardless of whether the Treasury, under any Government, can get its projections right--and that has been a matter of contention in our other recent debates.

The public's daily experience has relevance not only to this debate but to yesterday's by-election results. When I visited Bradford, I found that the people there are concerned that their city is not served by an electrified route. Instead, the line is electrified as far as Leeds, but there trains must have a diesel locomotive shunted on to them to take them to Bradford. The people there are quite right to think that electrification should be extended. The people of Bootle are equally concerned about the decline of the shipping and port industries, and are worried about connecting freight routes to the Channel tunnel. The great uncertainty about transport issues was reflected in the by-elections. I am delighted with the results and I hope that transport had a part to play in them. Clearly those issues keep transport to the fore.

Everyone's experience of the public transport system makes it a major political issue. A lot of the problems are due to the policies that the Government have pursued : deregulation, competition, privatisation, cuts in public financial support and the encouragement of private transport have undermined the public transportation system.

The hon. Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames) said it is good to go on the best of British Rail, but my experience is not as good as his. I use British Rail often. I identify the best of British Rail as its new electric traction. I shall not reiterate the story, which was given ample coverage in the press, about the toilet system and whether it can flush up instead of down. I was surprised that a new train for the 20th century should have such problems. When I went to Bradford yesterday and waited for the same train, it left the station 15 minutes late. It is a brand new train. It is new stock, which goes at 140 mph. It is one of the 21st century trains that we have been talking about and is supposed to be comparable with the TGV. It was late because the doors could not be made to shut or open properly. When I joined the train at Leeds at 6 o'clock this morning it was 25 minutes late on the section between Leeds and Doncaster because the brakes kept sticking. Those are new trains, which incorporate new engineering and new concepts. They do not have such problems on the

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continent and they did not have them with the TGV. The daily experience on the railways for an awful lot of people is not good and not adequate.

Mr. Soames : Nevertheless, does the hon. Gentleman accept that one of the outstanding improvements in British Rail is in the attitude of service to the general public? Previously a frightful, unkempt fellow without a tie, with no hat and his false teeth hanging out, was reluctant to tell one to which platform to go, to catch a train. At least they make a major effort now. It is wrong to say that there has not been a dramatic improvement on InterCity routes.

Mr. Prescott : Of course, there will always be different experiences due to personalities. We want to encourage the best. What is unfortunate about the British Rail system is that the staff have suffered cuts and reorganisations, and are losing confidence in the railway system. That is their worry. When I ask why a train has broken down, they are ashamed that even the new stock is not performing well. It undermines their confidence, which is reflected in their relationships with customers. There is a long way to go, but we all welcome the new stock and the improvements.

I welcome every penny that the Secretary of State is able to get from the Treasury to improve the system, which is old and dilapidated. Some of it is in a dangerous state and needs to be replaced as soon as possible.

I congratulate the Secretary of State and the Government on making the right decision about the two underground lines. I refer to the King's Cross London link, and I hope that the Hackney to Chelsea line will also be built. I disagreed with the Government about the Jubilee line as I do not think that it was the highest priority. We can have an argument about that. I think that the central rail study review upholds my view.

Now we are making decisions about major investments--in the region of £1 billion for each project. Those are the sort of choices we have. A lot of money will have to be found for the Channel tunnel. Whoever has the job of Secretary of State, and I hope that I shall have that opportunity shortly, needs to decide priorities. How does one manage congestion and deal with the problems and the priorities? Does the Queen's Speech address those problems? The debate has reflected many of the concerns. I shall wait to see the total amount of public expenditure that the Secretary of State has managed to get. All too often targets have been given and amounts stated, but when one takes inflation into account, and one finds that that is twice or 50 per cent. greater than expected, the improvement in real terms turns out to be nothing. There has been a history of that in the past two years and I shall not dwell on it. We shall have to wait and see.

We must wait and see what British Rail has to say in its corporate plan, which is getting to be like its trains--later and later. At least one used to be able to rely on getting an autumn statement from British Rail to find out its priorities. The importance of that is that ever since the Secretary of State's announcement about the amount of money available, I thought that we were being given an assurance that new types of investment, such as that in Network SouthEast, were not to be delayed. The west coast line, which was announced and then delayed, would be relieved by new sources of funds. Apparently British Rail is now saying that the delay will continue. We must

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wait to see what the new chairman says in the spring, and what the Department of Transport says in later statements.

The money made available to British Rail should be used for the improvement of the safety of the system. The amounts now being returned to British Rail and the underground system are about the same as the amounts that the Government have taken away in reducing the public service obligation levels. The Government are trying to cut corners on safety. Inquiry reports have referred to that. I hope that the money that is needed for safety measures will be provided ; we recognise that that is essential.

A report says that, even given the money available, the Government still intend to reduce the PSO level--for instance, on Network SouthEast. That can only mean ever-increasing fares on what must be the most expensive railway system in Europe, although it offers the poorest quality. It offers no hope for the people of the south-east. They are uncertain about the Channel tunnel connections and about the modern stock. The only certainty is a higher price for what service they do receive. That will be unacceptable--a mere breadbasket of support for the south-east.

My major criticism of the Queen's Speech does not relate to resources-- although we must wait for the proof of the pudding. I welcome the direction, but I am concerned about the approach. As I say at most of my transport meetings, I am genuinely sorry that in Britain an ideological difference still exists in regard to transport policy. Only in Britain is there such a difference--about whether Government should have a role in planning, intervention and the use of public money.

Governments of both left and right in Europe are quite prepared to use such mechanisms to provide an integrated transport system that not only provides the best and most efficient service for people and for the movement of goods, but begins to address itself to the two fundamental questions : what can transport do to reduce the massive congestion cost, and how can it stop the environmental damage that is threatened? That is the challenge for the transport system. It is uniquely placed to make a special contribution.

Market systems cannot provide the best solution ; by the very nature of the philosophy of competition between the modes of transport, we cannot get the best from their integration. Europe has recognised--and it is tragic that we do not recognise it in Britain--that there is a role for Government planning and intervention, and a role for public money.

I was saddened to read a speech made by the Secretary of State for Transport and reported in The Times --I am sorry that my photocopied page does not give the date. The article is headed

"Parkinson blames myopic' planners for traffic chaos", and continues :

"The post-war new town planners had failed to predict correctly the demand for transport, which is largely responsible for the transport difficulties confronting London and the south-east, Mr. Parkinson said."

Mr. Soames : Quite right.

Mr. Prescott : It may be quite right that the Secretary of State said it--indeed, that is not in doubt--but is it true? When I read that, it reminded me of the Buchanan report of 1963. Then, the planners looked at the predictions for

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transport--I do not think that they involved anyone in the right hon. Gentleman's office--and the increased use of the motor vehicle. They concluded that if we did nothing about the growth of the motor vehicle, the result in the 19809s would be the problems that we are witnessing now.

I asked the Library to look up the figures for light goods vehicles and motor cars in 1962. There were then 6.6 million such vehicles, with a projected growth by 1989 to 19.6 million. It was predicted that by 2010 the figure would be 26.4 million. I asked the Library to take account of the Department of Transport's predictions, and it came up with a high prediction of 31.4 million, or 27.8 million. That is smack in the middle. Such accuracy has been unerring for 40 years. A person in the Treasury would have a tremendous job to achieve such accurate figures.

That annual compounded rate in the growth of vehicles was predicted. However, the trouble is that the politicians ignored that advice. We cannot blame the officials. We were not prepared to take into account how those difficulties could be avoided.

What are we doing about it, since we know that that is patently and damagingly true? The Queen's Speech has to be judged by that question. The Secretary of State says that he intends to increase the public service obligation levels, the external financing limits and the transport tax. Transport tax resources have more than doubled--from £7 billion to £15 billion, but we spend only 25 per cent. of that amount on our transport system. Under the previous Labour Government, 35 per cent. was spent on it. In Europe the average amount is 50 per cent. The m oney that goes to the Treasury is not used fully to improve transport. More money ought to be made available to it.

The Secretary of State referred to providing more resources for British Rail. However, the Government reduced British Rail's external financing limits. They also reduced British Rail's subsidy. About £953 million was provided in 1983. The Government claim that by reducing that figure to £488 million they have scored a success. Figures provided for me by the Library suggest that, at 1983 prices, over £2 billion has been withdrawn from British Rail. At today's prices, that is over £3 billion. British Rail's borrowing level has also been reduced by £2 billion.

Many demands have been made in our debates for investment in British Rail. Money could have been invested in it, but the Treasury reduced British Rail's external financing limits and its expenditure. No other railway system in Europe has been denied such huge financial resources. The quality of our system has been considerably affected ; that has not happened anywhere else in Europe. No country can run a railway system by means only of fares. Public money must be invested in it. A balance has to be struck between the two. The Secretary of State often refers to that balance. At present, the balance between the two is wrong. British Rail has to work within an impossible financial framework.

The Government now intend to provide more money for public transport. They realise that they have made a mistake. However, they are 10 years too late. There have been 10 years of misery. Our transport system has been undermined. I am grateful, nevertheless, that the Secretary of State appears to have satisfied the Treasury that more money is needed. The Treasury may have been influenced

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by what people say about public transport and by the fact that the poor old Secretary of State was the only person who did not receive a standing ovation at the Tory party conference.

Whatever the reason may be, today the Secretary of State can claim that his Department is to get more money. The Opposition have claimed for many years that more public money is needed for transport. For the Government to say that more public money should be used for transport represents an advance. The PSO levels and capital grants will have to be increased. We await the final details, but at last we are starting on the right road. The problem is that we embarked on the wrong road and the wrong policies. Passengers have had to shoulder most of the burden. They suffer from lower quality and higher fares.

The Government intend to introduce the same policies for the roads. They are to introduce toll roads. Sufficient money is already being raised from road users. However, the Government intend to place another burden on them. Only £1 out of every £4 raised in taxes is used for transport purposes. Toll roads will lead to even greater expense for the road user. They will cost more to build and there will be even greater delays, as happened with the Birmingham north relief road. That could have been started 12 months ago. Congestion will increase, as we have seen with the Dartford tunnel. Toll roads have their price. Moreover, they will lead to the development of first and second-class road systems. To me that is anathema. Companies will pay for passes and Members of Parliament will be given free passes when they are on the business of the House. Such considerations will no doubt apply. However, most nauseating is that as it takes 20 or 30 years to pay for a toll road, the road that it is relieving will have to be kept congested to encourage people to take the fast route on the toll road. The public road system cannot be run like that.

Even if the Government decide not to proceed in that way, they may decide to route roads through the best green belt land and into attactive areas. The old arguments about the M25 apply to that. The development of land determines the route, not the transport requirements and the infrastructure. It is motivated and led by land values. I should have thought that we had learnt enough from the London docks about what happens when a route is determined by land prices.

The only reason for the privatisation of the trust ports is to allow the Government and the Treasury to gain access to the land around our 110 trust ports. What if some of them do not want their trust status to be removed? Will the Government force them into a privatised state? It is all about taking money from selling off more land. The Chancellor said yesterday that he estimates to receive more than £5 billion a year from privatisation, so he must get more assets to sell off.

We heard from hon. Members about the red routes. In principle, traffic management is an important point, which I fully support. However, the problem with red routes is that getting vehicles faster into the centre leads to more congestion in the centre. Stopping parking in one street moves the problem to another area, where most of the buses are operating. Therefore, public transport is delayed, but people are saying, "Improve public transport," so that they have a genuine choice when travelling.

I very much welcome the Horne report. It says that 3 million holes are dug a year, and 1,000 deaths are associated with that. I congratulate the Government on

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implementing the Horne report, which was concerned about confusion between different Departments. It must have been staggering, but almost fitting, to find the Department of Transport totally confused. On 7 January it announced the start of the red routes, but three weeks later it said that it was tearing up the road for road works. Does that mean that the scheme will be delayed, or did one part of the Department not know what the other part was doing? Confusion apparently exists even in the Department itself. Perhaps the Secretary of State will say whether it is intended to proceed with the scheme.

The red routes are about traffic management. It is important to give buses priority and more space on the roads. The car may be hindered more, but we should provide a fast and frequent bus service on which people can rely. A bus has much to offer and we can use it effectively. It can be set free only if we regulate it and give it priority over the car. Let people decide whether to use the bus rather than the car, but that is not an ideological problem. That is what must be done, not only to give people better choice but because it is the best solution for relieving congestion and dealing with the environmental targets that we have accepted internationally. If that is not done, it will not be possible to achieve those targets. This is a move forward, but it is not enough because it is not a comprehensive concept for transport.

We are not anti-car, but many people want to transfer to public transport, and cheap fares offer them the chance to do that. It might not be necessary to pursue cheap fare alternatives. If we provide a regular, frequent service that can be relied on, people will automatically choose to transfer and we must intervene to achieve that.

The most pleasing aspects of the Queen's Speech are the commitment and endorsement of the Secretary of State's desire, of which he has spoken several times, to reduce the number of accidents and deaths on the roads. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley), who as a Minister at the Department of Transport spent much time trying to reduce the number of deaths and accidents. The Department is right. We have a better record than other countries, but far more people are killed on our roads than in many of the tragedies that have occurred recently. I am delighted that we are giving greater attention to those issues.

I am also delighted that we are considering the proposals of Dr. North. They will undoubtedly help to reduce the numbers killed and injured on the roads. Let us not forget that the majority of those accidents occur in urban areas and affect primarily youngsters and old people. That shows that we must do something about traffic control as well as speeding traffic through the cities. In other words, we must achieve a proper balance.

As I do not doubt that the Secretary of State wishes to reduce the number of deaths and accidents on our roads, I fail to understand why he does not take certain steps now, for example on random breath testing and rear seat belts. In recent weeks I have been examining the arguments and statistics on those issues.

It is argued that only 6 per cent. of people are using rear seat belts and that in every 25,000 accidents, four people are killed. It is estimated that if rear seat belt wearing were made compulsory, the number of deaths could be reduced by 70 per cent. That would represent a great saving of life, of over half the total number killed, perhaps 2,000 people.

Hon. Members generally support the idea of random breath testing. The case for it is overwhelming. The

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