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House of Commons
Thursday 15 November 1990
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
MOTIONS FOR UNOPPOSED RETURNS
Business of the House
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 of--
(1) the total number of Questions to Ministers or other Members which stood on the Order Paper, distinguishing those set down for oral, written priority and written answer
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respectively, the number of days upon which replies to Questions for oral answers were given in the House ; and the total number of Questions for oral answer to which such answers were given in the House ;(2) the total number of Notices of Motions given for an early day ;
(3) the number of Members ordered to withdraw from the House under Standing Order No. 42 (Disorderly conduct), showing separately the orders given in the House and those given in Committee ; and the Members suspended from the service of the House under Standing Order No. 43 (Order in debate) or otherwise, distinguishing whether the offence was committed in the House or in Committee, the period of such suspension, the number of occasions on which more than one Member was so suspended having jointly disregarded the authority of the Chair, and the number of occasions on which the attention of the House was called to the need for recourse to force to compel obedience to Mr. Speaker's direction ; and
(4) the number of public petitions presented to the House distinguishing separately those brought to the Table at the times specified by Standing Order No.133 (No debate on presentation of petition).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
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Closure and allocation of time
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 respecting-
(A) applications of Standing Order No. 35 (Closure of debate) during Session
1989-90:
(1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the
following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4 |5 |6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Question before |Whether in |Whether assent |Assent witheld because,|Result of Motion
Closure claimed, |House or |House or |given to Motion |inthe opinion of the |and, if a Division,
and by whom |Committee |Committee |or witheld by |Chair, a decision would|Numbers for
|when claimed |the Chair |shortly be arrived at |and against
|without that Motion
and
(2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4 |5
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Question before |Whether assent |Assent withheld because,|Result of Motion
Closure claimed, |Committee when |given to Motion |in the opinion of the |and, if a Division,
and by whom |when claimed |or withheld by |Chair, a decision would |Numbers for
|the Chair |shortly be arrived at |and against
|without that Motion
and
(B) applications of Standing Order No. 28 (Powers of Chair to proposequestion) during Session 1989-90 :
(1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following heads :
1 2 3 4 5
Date when
Closure claimed,
and by whom Whether in
House or
Committee Whether claimed
in respect of
Motion or
Amendment Whether assent
given to Motion
or withheld by
the Chair Result of Motion,
and, if a Division,
Numbers for
and against
and
(2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Whether claimed |Whether assent |Result of Motion,
Closure claimed, |in respect of |given to Motion |and, if a Division,
and by whom |Motion or |or withheld |Numbers for
|Amendment |by the Chair |and against
and
(C) the number of Bills in respect of which allocation of time orders (distinguishing
where appropriate orders supplementary to a previous order) were made under
Standing Order No. 81 (Allocation of time to Bills), showing in respect of each
Bill--
(i) the number of sittings allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Standing
Committee by any report of a Business Sub-Committee under
Standing Order No. 103 (Business sub-committees) agreed to by the
Standing Committee, and the number of sittings of the Standing Committee pursuant
thereto; and
(ii) the number of days or portions of days allotted by the allocation of time order and any supplementary order to the consideration of the Bill at any stage in the House or in committee, together with the number of days upon which proceedings were so taken in the House or in committee.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Delegated Legislation
Return ordered,
or Session 1989-90 of the number of Instruments considered by the Joint Committee and the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments respectively pursuant to their orders of
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reference, showing in each case the numbers of Instruments subject to the different forms of parliamentary procedure and of those within the Committees' orders of reference for which no parliamentary procedure is prescribed by statute ; setting out the grounds on which Instruments may be drawn to the special attention of the House under Standing Order No. 124 (Statutory Instruments (Joint Committee)) and specifying the number of Instruments so reported under each of these grounds ; and of the numbers of Instruments considered by a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c., and by the House respectively, showing the number where the Question on the proceedings relating thereto was put forthwith under Standing Order No. 101(5).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]Private Bills and Private Business
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 of
(1) The Number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into this House, and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed, specifying also the dates of the House's consideration of the several stages of such Bills ;
(2) All Private Bills, Hybrid Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which were reported on by Committees on Opposed Bills or by Committees nominated by the House or partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee ; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee ; the number of days on which each Committee sat ; the number of days on which each selected Member served ; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee ; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been proved ; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been not proved ; and in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Order ought or ought not to be confirmed ;
(3) All Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which were referred by the Committee of Selection to the Committee on Unopposed Bills, together with the names of the Members who served on the Committee ; the number of days on which the Committee sat ; and the number of days on which each Member attended ;
(4) The number of Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, distinguishing those proceeded with under section 7 and under section 9 respectively ; specifying, in the case of Bills proceeded with under section 9 against which petitions were deposited, whether a motion was made to refer the Bill to a joint committee, and if so whether such motion was agreed to, withdrawn, negatived or otherwise disposed of ; and stating for each joint committee to which a Bill was referred the names of the Members of this House nominated thereto, the first and last day of the committee's sitting, the number of days on which each joint committee sat for the consideration of the Bill referred to it, the number of days on which each Member of the committee served, and whether the committee reported that the order ought or ought not to be confirmed ;
(5) The number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which were referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the committee ; and
(6) The membership, work costs and staff of the Court of Referees and the Standing Orders Committee.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Public Bills
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 of the number of Public Bills (other than Bills to confirm Provisional Orders and Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, showing : (1) the number which received the Royal Assent, and (2) the number which did not receive the Royal Assent, indicating those which were introduced into but not passed by this House, those passed by this House but not by the House of Lords, those passed by the House of Lords but not by this House, those passed by both Houses but Amendments not agreed to ; and distinguishing the stages at
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which such Bills were dropped, postponed or rejected in either House of Parliament, or the stages which such Bills had reached by the time of Prorogation.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]Sittings of the House
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 of the days on which the House sat ; stating for each day the day of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of the adjournment ; the total numbers of hours occupied in the sittings of the House ; and the average time ; showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day and the number of hours after the time appointed for the interruption of business ; and specifying, for each principal type of business before the House, how much time was spent thereon, distinguishing from the total the time spent after the hour appointed for the interruption of business.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Special Procedure Orders
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 of
(1) The number of Special Procedure Orders presented, the number withdrawn ; the number annulled ; the number against which Petitions or copies of Petitions were deposited ; the number of Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively considered by the Chairmen ; the number of such petitions certified by the Chairmen as proper to be received and the number certified by them as being Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively ; the number referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses ; the number reported with Amendments by a Joint Committee, and the number in relation to which a Joint Committee reported that the Order be not approved and be amended respectively ; and the number of Bills introduced for the confirmation of Special Procedure Orders : and (2) Special Procedure Orders which were referred to a joint Committee, together with the names of the Commons Members who served on each Committee ; the number of days on which each committee sat ; and the number of days on which each such Member attended.-- [The First Deputy chairman of Ways and Means.]
Standing Committees
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 of
(1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing Chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more of the Standing Committees showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings to which he was summoned and at which he was present ;
(2) the number of Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items referred to Standing Committees pursuant to Standing Order No. 102 (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), or Standing Order No. 103 (Standing Committees on European Community Documents) considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number of sittings of each Committee and the titles of all Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items as above considered by a Committee, distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords, and showing in the case of each Bill, Estimate, Matter and other item, the particular Committee by which it was considered, the number of sittings at which it was considered (including, in the case of the Scottish Grand Committee, the number of Meetings held in Edinburgh, pursuant to a motion made under Standing Order No. 95(3) (Scottish Grand Committee)) and the number of Members present at each of those sittings ; and
(3) the membership, work costs and staff of the Chairmen's Panel.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Select Committees
Return ordered,
for Session 1989-90 of statistics relating to the membership, work costs and staff of Select Committees (other than the Standing Orders Committee).- - [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
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Oral Answers to Questions
HOME DEPARTMENT
Free Television Licences
1. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on Government policy towards the provision of free television licences for pensioners.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : We have no plans to introduce free licences for pensioners or to extend the present concessionary arrangements.
Mr. Winnick : Although the licence fee is excellent value and far better than any alternative scheme, is the Minister aware of the strong feeling of many pensioners that they should not have to pay the full sum? Is he also aware that two thirds of pensioner households are on low incomes? Why do the Government give every concession to the rich, but deny poor pensioners the concession for which Labour Members ask? Is it any wonder that the Government are so detested?
Mr. Lloyd : I wonder whether the hon. Member would think it fair, when many pensioners are well off and many non-pensioners have low incomes, for £435 million which would otherwise go to the BBC to be spent in that way, with the result that low-income families would have to pay 50 per cent. more for their licences, up to £107. Is that fair?
Dame Jill Knight : Does my hon. Friend agree that if the suggestion of the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) were followed, hundreds of thousands of extremely wealthy people over the ages of 60 and 65 would get handouts from the taxpayer and that if any Government were to subsidise pleasure we should be on a slippery slope?
Mr. Lloyd : I agree with my hon. Friend and so, I believe, does the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher). I regret that the hon. Gentleman is not in his place. He made it clear in a letter to The Guardian that there was no question of exempting pensioners who were able to pay. My hon. Friend is right to say that if money is available it should be used for projects which benefit the lower paid and are targeted on them. That is why, in October last, we increased the pensioner addition to income support by £200 million.
Mr. Maginnis : Is the Secretary of State aware that, more than the question of free television licences, it is the nature of programmes which gives offence to pensioners, and that this problem should be tackled? Is he aware that deep offence was caused on 1 November, during a by-election in Dungannon district council, when on voting day the BBC transmitted a programme which highlighted the fact that the previous member for the seat had been shot by security forces when on IRA activity, and--
Mr. Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman must relate his supplementary question to television licences for pensioners.
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Mr. Maginnis : I am talking about the offence given to pensioners and the deep upset caused to them by news items such as these.
Mr. Lloyd : I think that that supplementary falls very much on the edge of the issue raised by the question. I understand the feelings expressed by the hon. Member, but they are matters not for me but for the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and the Broadcasting Standards Council, which have been set up to look at issues of that kind.
Mr. Holt : When my constituent Mrs. Littlefair received notification that, along with all her neighbours, she had been given a concessionary licence, she was naturally delighted. However, she received a further letter saying that, because of the inefficiences of Middlesbrough council, the bureaucratic bungling in the Home Office and the intransigence of the advice given by my hon. Friend, her concessionary licence was taken away, as were those of her three immediate neighbours, but not those of any of the other people. I have now been asked by the chief executive of Middlesbrough to bring in the ombudsman to see whether he will investigate the way in which Middlesbrough council has failed in its duty and the Home Office has been so intransigent.
Mr. Lloyd : I have much sympathy for my hon. Friend's constitutent, but the law gives no opportunity for Ministers to grant a concessionary licence when the individual concerned does not fall within the rules. The individual must be in a property which falls within the rules or have had a concessionary licence prior to the relevant date. If the individual did not have one but understood from Middlesbrough council that he or she would have one, that one was in force or that one was applied for, the remedy surely lies with the council. That, however, is a matter for my hon. Friend to pursue.
Mr. Corbett : Do not the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Holt) and other comments on this issue demonstrate that the concessionary licence scheme is arbitrary and unfair as between pensioner neighbours?
Mr. Ashby : Abolish the concession.
Mr. Corbett : Yes. The Government did not have the bottle to do that, but I agree that that is what they wanted to do.
Is the Minister aware that when a flat in a block occupied by pensioners is taken by a person under pensionable age, all the other pensioner residents lose the concession? Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to put that right?
Mr. Lloyd : The concession is carefully drawn to ensure that pensioners living in the equivalent of residential care, in warden- controlled or sheltered accommodation, may have the concession. As the rule has to be clear and understandable at law, and not challenged at law, the detail must be set out clearly. There can be no concessions for those who fall outside the rule. It is regrettable that that is so, but it is necessary for local authorities to organise themselves so that their tenants can take advantage of the scheme and to ensure that they do not let accommodation of the kind to which the hon. Gentleman referred to people not of pensionable age. That is the remedy and the solution.
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Radio Frequencies
2. Mr. Robert Hicks : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends next to meet the chairman of the BBC to discuss the allocation of radio frequencies ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : My right hon. and learned Friend meets the chairman of the BBC from time to time to discuss a wide variety of broadcasting matters.
Mr. Hicks : Is my right hon. Friend aware of the adverse effect that the introduction of the new frequency arrangements could have on sports coverage, especially the ball-by-ball cricket test match commentary? Does he agree that those continuous commentaries, which have an international as well as a national audience, are an essential part of our lives and should be maintained even when there are competing sporting events on the same day? It is important that all of us should have the opportunity to know who is batting, how many runs have been scored or who has taken most wickets.
Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend raises a matter of great national importance. The changes in the airwaves are to give many more people a much wider range of choice. I understand that most sporting events will be uninterrupted on the new Radio 5. The only likely clashes will be in June when Wimbledon and the test match come at the same time. It is entirely for the BBC to decide how to manage, bearing in mind what it considers audience demand to be. I understand that it intends to broadcast a ball-by-ball commentary of the test match and to intersperse within it occasional reports on other sporting events.
Mr. Wigley : In any such discussions, will the Minister take up the issue of wavelengths and reception for both radio and television in parts of Wales, as people in Wales are having considerable difficulty receiving programmes which originate from Wales? Will the hon. Gentleman consider the odd situation in which Kenny Dalglish can watch soccer matches from Wales in Liverpool while large sections of the population in Clwyd cannot receive those programmes?
Mr. Lloyd : I am aware that there are difficulties, especially in Wales, as are the BBC and the broadcasting authorities. There is a programme to improve FM transmission with the move to the new wavelengths for the BBC. The television authorities are aware of the difficulties in certain places, but I believe that broadcasting standards and reception are improving and are designed to improve markedly in the coming years until the old wavelengths are phased out.
Mr. Hague : When my hon. Friend next meets the chairman of the BBC to discuss radio frequencies, will he remind him of the continuing frustration of people in areas such as Swaledale and North Yorkshire that they cannot receive FM broadcasts and thus cannot listen to Radio 2? Will he urge the chairman to complete the construction of more repeater stations so that the whole nation can listen to FM broadcasts?
Mr. Lloyd : I note what my hon. Friend says. No doubt those responsible in the BBC and other broadcasting authorities will read our exchanges. As I said to the hon.
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Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), the BBC is mindful of the speed with which it needs to improve FM transmission in particular.Broadcasting Act
3. Mr. Clelland : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the implications for the provisions of the Broadcasting Act of the merger of BSB and Sky Television.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Waddington) : Under the Broadcasting Act 1990, the ownership provisions of the Broadcasting Act 1981 apply to the existing DBS contractor until 1993, and the IBA is accordingly considering whether the merged company is in conformity with the 1981 Act. I understand that the Office of Fair Trading is currently considering whether the merger falls within the scope of the merger provisions of the Fair Trading Act 1973.
Mr. Clelland : Is the Secretary of State aware that while the Broadcasting Act 1990, which placed great emphasis on choice, gathers dust on the shelf, thousands of families like mine around the country who chose not to have Sky but to wait for the better quality and technologically superior BSB have had choice effectively removed from them without being consulted or having their wishes considered? What consultation will the right hon. and learned Gentleman undertake to ensure that the rights of such people are protected and that manufacturers, retailers and customers who do not wish to avail themselves of the offer that they cannot refuse from Sky are properly and fully compensated?
Mr. Waddington : The Act is designed to open up new opportunities. It is for entrepreneurs to take up those opportunities and for viewers to decide whether they deserve to succeed. It is no part of the Government's duty to prop up and subsidise the entrepreneurs.
Mr. Maclennan : What action would the Secretary of State propose to encourage diversification by Sky or BSkyB when it reaches a dominant position in the marketplace?
Mr. Waddington : It is not a matter for the Government, but I mentioned earlier that one of the consequences of what happened a week or so ago is that important decisions must be taken by the IBA and the Office of Fair Trading.
Mr. Hattersley : Bearing in mind the BSB-Sky merger and this week's announcement that Mr. Rupert Murdoch seems likely to acquire an interest in yet another newspaper, what are the Government's objections to and arguments against a general reference to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission asking it to inquire into the concentration of newspaper and media ownership?
Mr. Waddington : That goes far wide of the question and of my responsibilities. We are dealing today with the consequences of what happened a week or so ago.
Sunday Trading
4. Mr. Barry Field : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent representations he has received regarding the application of the law on Sunday
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trading ; and what is the latest figure he has for the number of actions instituted this year against stores contravening the Shops Act 1950.The Minister of State, Home Office (Mrs. Angela Rumbold) : Since I answered a similar question from my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) on 1 November, five written representations broadly in favour of Sunday trading and three against have been received. Figures for the number of prosecutions instituted this year are not yet available.
Mr. Field : Is my hon. Friend aware that most people find the Sunday trading laws rather more confusing than one of Dr. Habgood's sermons? Is it not possible for the Government to consider giving the power to borough and district councils to take decisions about whether to allow Sunday trading so that decisions are taken at a local level, giving more power to the people and less to the prophets and the politicians?
Mrs. Rumbold : My hon. Friend will know that local authorities have the opportunity to bring prosecutions in such matters. It would not be right for us to go further at present.
Mr. Ray Powell : Is the Minister aware of the law? If she is aware of it and believes, as the Prime Minister has said on many occasions, that it should be enforced, will she ensure that those who attempt to enforce the law are not pressurised by companies? I have a full list of companies that have gone to court to appeal against local authority decisions to impose the Sunday trading laws. It is about time the Minister sent a circular letter to all local authorities defining their responsibilities and, indeed, the legal position under the Sunday trading laws.
Mrs. Rumbold : The hon. Gentleman knows that there is no need for a circular letter. The law is perfectly clear. It is within the remit of local authorities to undertake to prosecute in such cases if that is what they wish to do.
Mr. Stanbrook : Is my hon. Friend aware that if the Government were to adopt as a sensible compromise the REST--recreation, emergencies, social gatherings and travel--proposals of the Keep Sunday Special campaign, there would be no difficulty in getting that reform through the House?
Mrs. Rumbold : As my hon. Friend knows, it is difficult at present to see how progress can be made because so many people hold divergent views on this matter. If there were any reasonable proposals that could command the support of a majority of the House and of Parliament it would, of course, be possible for us to consider legislation.
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