| Previous Section | Home Page |
Mr. Randall : Is the Minister aware that the Conservative Government are encouraging law breaking because of their failure to reform the Shops Act 1950? That is happening despite the lecture on law breaking that the House received from the Home Secretary on Monday during the debate on the Queen's Speech. Is the Minister also aware that the Government's procrastination is resulting in allegedly threatening letters being sent to elected members of Macclesfield borough council by B and Q plc of the Kingfisher group, which is continuing to trade illegally? I notice that this matter is also causing concern to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), whom
Column 696
I see in his place. The Minister is responsible for this mess. When is she going to reform that Act ? The House wants to know.Mrs. Rumbold : The hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense. He knows perfectly well that it is not long since the House had a perfectly good opportunity to reform the legislation on Sunday trading, but hon. Members declined to do so. The hon. Gentleman's party participated fully in that debate. If the Opposition wish to have reform, it is in their interests to ensure that reasonable proposals come before the House so that all parties can agree on the way in which legislation should be framed.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton : Will my hon. Friend ensure that in this country the law of this country is upheld? If undue pressure and threats are brought to bear by B and Q on officers and councillors of the borough of Macclesfield, will she ensure that the Government are prepared to support the council and to ensure that a company is not allowed, because of its wealth, to bring such undue, unfortunate and undemocratic pressure to bear upon a duly elected council?
Mrs. Rumbold : My hon. Friend is aware that the place for such disputes is undoubtedly and indisputably in the courts. It is important that my hon. Friend should remember that it is not possible for Ministers to do more than that which falls within the scope of their responsibilities, which is to uphold the rights of local authorities to pursue such matters in the courts.
Several hon. Members rose--
Mr. Speaker : Order. Exceptionally, and to ensure balance, I call Mr. Patrick Duffy.
Mr. Duffy : I shall be brief, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister noticed the strength of the Keep Sunday Special movement in Germany? What consideration is she giving to the known intentions of some of its promoters in Germany to campaign for wider acceptance within the European Community?
Mrs. Rumbold : The hon. Gentleman will recognise that Sunday trading is a matter for this Parliament and that we must discuss their wishes with the people of this country. It is because there is a discrepancy among the different groups that we have so far been unable to put forward any proposals that could command the support of the majority of the people of this country and enable Parliament to pass an Act.
Prison Population
5. Mr. Yeo : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the current level of the prison population.
Mr. Waddington : This morning, there were 44,540 prisoners held in prison service establishments in England and Wales. In addition, a further 970 were held in police cells.
Mr. Yeo : Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that those figures are already encouragingly below the trends forecast some years ago? Will he ensure that the Government's twin-track approach to sentencing, which
Column 697
involves longer sentencing of violent offenders but greater use of non-custodial penalties for those who commit less serious offences, is fully implemented?Mr. Waddington : I will certainly do the last. As my hon. Friend knows, that is the theme of the proposals to be embodied in the Criminal Justice Bill which we shall be debating before long. My hon. Friend is right to say that much encouragement can be taken from recent figures, which show a fall of 2,962 prisoners by comparison with one year ago and a fall of more than 5,000 compared with two years ago.
Mr. Bermingham : Does the Home Secretary agree that in view of the number of suicides and other problems associated with prisoners suffering from mental deficiency, it is time to give prison medical services extra funding pro tem, so as to ensure early diagnosis of prisoners at risk?
Mr. Waddington : I am not sure that it is just a question of extra funding, but the hon. Gentleman is right in thinking that we have a serious problem on our hands. We asked the chief inspector of prisons, Judge Tumim, to investigate and I expect to receive his report before long. Meanwhile, a number of important measures have been taken throughout the prison estate for dealing with that very real problem.
Mr. Lawrence : Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that there has been a reduction not just in the total prison population but in overcrowding within prisons and, in particular, a substantial fall in the past year in the number of three-to-a-cell prisoners?
Mr. Waddington : A combination of our prison building programme and the important reforms embodied in the Criminal Justice Act 1982 and 1988 resulted in fewer young offenders being sent to prison or to young offenders institutions. That has changed the scene radically. The new criminal justice legislation will extend to the whole age range the kind of measures that have proved so successful in respect of young offenders.
Mr. Battle : In the light of Judge Tumim's report on Armley prison in my constituency, does the Home Secretary accept that it is universally agreed that Armley is a totally inappropriate place to send young, unconvicted remand prisoners? What plans does the Home Office have to provide an alternative and by what date does the Home Secretary envisage that Armley prison's remand wing will be closed down?
Mr. Waddington : Our response to Judge Tumim's report was made public on 6 November and it is available in the Library. I indicated that action had already been taken to improve conditions within Armley, in terms of staffing and the regime. Harking back to an earlier question, the recommendations on suicide prevention have already been adopted. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we must take other measures, particularly in getting young offenders out of Armley. We intend before long to move adult offenders into another prison, so in due course there will be more scope for providing better accommodation for young remand prisoners in Yorkshire.
Mr. Charles Wardle : In his consideration of the prison population and the prison building programme, will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that Northeye
Column 698
prison in my constituency is scheduled for closure? Will the site be sold when that happens, or will it be retained indefinitely by the prison service?Mr. Waddington : I cannot give my hon. Friend an off-the-cuff answer, but I will write to him. He will appreciate that it was important to undertake the review of the prison estate that I reported to the House in the summer because we must make the best possible use of the accommodation available within the prison estate.
Security Service Tribunal
6. Mr. Archer : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many cases are currently under review by the Security Service Tribunal ; and how many of them relate to matters that took place prior to December 1989.
Mr. Waddington : The Security Service Act 1989 established the Security Service Tribunal as an independent body and it is not for me to make available details of its work. The tribunal is precluded by the Act from considering matters that took place before the implementation of the Act on 18 December 1989.
Mr. Archer : Is it a closely guarded secret whether the tribunal is declining jurisdiction in cases where the inquiry began before it was established? If it is, will the Home Secretary confirm that that is not what the Act says, and it would surprise hon. Members who voted for it?
Mr. Waddington : I have made absolutely plain what the Act says. There is not the slightest doubt that the tribunal is precluded by the Act from considering matters that took place before its implementation. It is not for me to give details of the tribunal's work. It was established by Parliament as an independent body-- [Interruption.] If hon. Gentlemen will wait for a moment. The Security Service Commissioner may choose to cover the work of the tribunal in his report.
Squatters
8. Mr. Burns : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his Department has any plans to bring forward proposals to tighten the law on squatters.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. John Patten) : As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 19 June, we are considering the criminal law on squatting as it affects unoccupied residential property. This is a difficult and complex area in which the criminal law has traditionally not played a major role in England and Wales. But we recognise that there is a case for strengthening the law and I hope to announce the Government's intentions in due course.
Mr. Burns : Does my right hon. Friend accept that a number of my constituents who have suffered because of the reprehensible activities of squatters will welcome the answer that he has given me today? Many of my constituents cannot understand why--despite the complexities of this aspect of law--the law cannot be brought into line with that governing a prime residence. Can the Minister advise me when he might be able to make an announcement on this matter?
Column 699
Mr. Patten : I know of my hon. Friend's strong feelings on behalf of his constituents, and especially the occupant and owner of The Warren, near Chelmsford. I understand the distress that his constituents went through. My hon. Friend is right. There are serious issues to be considered here and that is exactly what my right hon. and learned Friend and I are doing at the moment. We hope to make an announcement as soon as possible.Mr. Haynes : Can I make a suggestion to the Minister? He should have a word with the Secretary of State for the Home Department over these problems, that is squatters. Could I suggest that he tell the Secretary of State-- [Hon. Members :-- "No. Ask a question".] I have already asked a question. When the Secretary of State sits round that table at No. 10 drinking tea, doing nothing else, only doing as he is told by that lady in the chair, he might overcome the problem if he told her to change her policy on housing. So get stuck in and do something about it.
Mr. Patten : It seems to me that the hon. Gentleman is a little overexcited. It might be advisable, Mr. Speaker--if I may make a suggestion --if you put the kind ladies and gentlemen in white coats on watch as they may need to take him away a bit later.
Mr. Haynes rose --
Mr. Speaker : Order. I think that that was meant in a kindly way.
Mr. Haynes : No it was not. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, if I had said that to the Minister you would have thrown me out of the place. It is time that you dealt with him. I am not satisfied. Deal with him. I will whitecoat him outside.
Mr. Speaker : Order. I still think it was friendly and if the hon. Member had said it I should have thought it was friendly, too.
Mr. John Marshall : When my hon. Friend examines the law on squatters, will he also consider the law on gipsies, who frequently behave anti-socially, are often parasites on society and frequently tax dodgers?
Mr. Patten : That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. My hon. Friend's constituents have some protection under section 39 of the Public Order Act 1986, which is a useful Act. It might be of use in respect of the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes). Police Funding, Staffordshire
Mrs. Heal : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he is next to meet the chief constable of Staffordshire to discuss police funding.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : My right hon. Friend has no plans at present to meet the chief constable, but Home Office Ministers are in regular contact with chief officers of police.
Mrs. Heal : In view of the hopelessly inadequate allocation of funds to the Staffordshire police authority for 1990-91, can the Home Secretary assure us that the level of capital grant will be sufficient to meet the known operational requirements of the police authorities for vehicles and other equipment in the coming year?
Column 700
Mr. Lloyd : I am sure that the hon. Lady knows that the capital expenditure on vehicles, plant and equipment was open ended. In 1988-89 it was approximately £150 million. In 1989-90 it leapt to £238 million. Therefore, we had to cap central Government's contribution. That amounted to £174 million. There was, therefore, an increase that year, compared with the 1988-89 allocation. Next year, the figure will rise to £220 million. That is a substantial increase. It will be made available for the capital expenditure to which the hon. Lady referred. There will, therefore, again be more money. Moreover, we are consulting the police authorities about a mechanism to ensure that that money is shared out as fairly as possible.
Mr. Cormack : Is my hon. Friend aware that earlier this year our right hon. and noble Friend the Minister of State received a deputation of county council representatives and Members of Parliament from all parts of the House? Is he also aware that the chief constable was a member of that deputation, that a very powerful case was made and that we are eagerly awaiting a good and positive reply?
Mr. Lloyd : Yes, I know that such a meeting took place and that my right hon. and noble Friend took close note of what was said. I hope that my hon. Friend has also taken note of what I have said : we are seeking, with the police authorities, to devise a mechanism to ensure that the money is distributed as fairly as possible and that it goes where it is most needed.
Mr. Sheerman : The way in which the Government have played around with the current and capital expenditure of county authorities such as Staffordshire means that the police have been hamstrung when planning to meet the rising level of crime that faces them, day in, day out, under the Thatcher Government. Is not it about time that the Government gave certainty to the financial structure? That is what the police need if they are to fight crime effectively.
Mr. Lloyd : That is exactly what we have done. We have changed an open-ended situation that was not used well by some local authorities and police authorities, to the disadvantage of others. We have set a cap on it which allows for a sensible increase each year.
Bicycles
10. Mr. Bowis : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to enforce the law requiring bicycles to be adequately lit when being ridden on public highways during the hours of darkness.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : Responsibility for the enforcement of road traffic law rests with individual chief officers of police.
Mr. Bowis : Does my hon. Friend agree that what we must encourage is responsible cycling? Is he aware of the increasing public concern about the danger to pedestrians, motorists and cyclists due to the practice of cycling at night without lights? Will he draw the problem to the attention of the police, particularly the Metropolitan police?
Mr. Lloyd : I shall certainly draw this exchange to the attention of the Metropolitan police. As my hon. Friend said, it is an important matter, not least because there has been a considerable increase in the number of cyclist accidents during the last year. Only 20 per cent. of those accidents, however, occurred at night.
Column 701
Mr. Cryer : Is not it true, however, that more danger is caused to cyclists by badly maintained roads and the failure of central Government to give enough money to local authorities to provide cycle ways? Is not it true that cyclists would be much better served if the Government were less parsimonious towards local authorities and provided them with adequate funds?Mr. Lloyd : The hon. Gentleman is trying to construct an extraordinarily unconvincing explanation for people cycling in unsafe circumstances and unsafe conditions with their lights off. The hon. Gentleman's comments seem to have no relevance to the question that I was posed.
Mrs. Peacock : Is my hon. Friend aware that many cyclists who are involved in accidents after dark not only cannot be seen but cannot hear the traffic because they are riding with headphones on, playing loud music? Does my hon. Friend intend to take any action on that matter?
Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend has made a useful point. As I said earlier, I shall draw these matters to the attention of the police. My hon. Friend underlines the fact that cyclists can do a great deal more to make their cycling safer.
Policing, Cumbria
11. Mr. Campbell-Savours : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received from Cumbria on the question of policing.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : My right hon. and learned Friend has received no representations from the Cumbria police authority since March 1989. My right hon. and noble Friend the Minister of State visited Cumbria police in May 1990.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : In the light of the high incidence of petty crime and burglary in the county, may I make a special plea on behalf of hundreds of thousands of Cumbrians that the Government look most sympathetically on any request for additional policing resources for the county? Things really are quite bad.
Mr. Lloyd : Of course, the hon. Gentleman can be sure that we will look carefully at any such request. As he knows, extra police officers will be announced towards the end of the year. I commend the Cumbrian police authority for the way in which it has used the civilianisation programme. It has used the programme sensibly and better than many other authorities in the country. The increase in the crime rate in Cumbria, particularly for the crimes mentioned by the hon. Gentleman is lower than the national increase.
Mr. Jopling : Is my hon. Friend aware that if he is looking for examples throughout the country of good relations between the police and the public, he could do no better than offer Cumbria as such an example?
Mr. Lloyd : Cumbria is a very good example and I have already mentioned some of its successes in my reply to the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours).
Mr. Martlew : Will the Minister have urgent talks with the Secretary of State for the Environment, who is under the impression that Cumbria is spending too much on its police? He said that under the standard spending assessment, £1.6 million too much is being spent. It is obvious to the people of Cumbria that that is not the case.
Column 702
Is not it a fact that, unless the county council cuts its police budget, we are likely to be capped this year by the Government?Mr. Lloyd : The council must make its own judgment in terms of its obligations under the law and the arrangements for the community charge that it receives.
Petty Criminals
12. Mr. Anthony Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what measures are being taken to ensure that petty criminals receive community-based sentences rather than imprisonment.
Mr. John Patten : My right hon. and learned Friend's Criminal Justice Bill, with the new framework for sentencing, will ensure that offenders are punished according to the seriousness of their crimes. In all but the most serious crimes the courts will have to consider a pre-sentence report before imposing imprisonment. Custody will need to be justified by the seriousness of the offence or the need to protect the public from harm. A wider and more flexible range of tough and demanding community penalties is proposed to enable more offenders to be adequately punished in the community.
Mr. Coombs : I strongly support the greater use of community-based punishments, but does my right hon. Friend agree that, if they are to have a deterrent effect as well as a rehabilitative effect, they must be significantly more rigorous and better monitored? What steps does he intend to take to ensure that that is done?
Mr. Patten : My hon. Friend will recognise that in some parts of the country supervision is not adequately firm and in other parts the probation service does an excellent job. My right hon. and learned Friend and I are trying to ensure higher standards through his proposed legislation and through national standards for the imposition of punishment in the community.
Mr. Tony Banks : Is the Minister contemplating any penalties for people who use sexist and abusive language on car phones?
Mr. Patten : There is a proposal in Lord Justice Taylor's report to outlaw the chanting of racist abuse at football games and my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has announced that we shall pursue that as soon as possible.
Computer Crime
13. Mr. Colvin : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps are being taken to improve police officers' training to investigate computer crime.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : The police staff college runs a 20-day course for computer crime investigators entitled "Investigative Techniques in Computer Crime". The course is subject to continuous review and takes account of suggestions from forces and regular contact with the computer crime unit of the Metropolitan police.
Mr. Colvin : Does my hon. Friend agree that, although the Metropolitan police is well equipped to investigate highly sophisticated crimes, the 43 provincial forces are not? Will he confirm that, if necessary, they can enlist the
Column 703
help of specialist computer firms with their inquiries, and would not it be a good idea if they were to add computer security to their crime prevention campaigns?Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend's question is a matter for chief police officers. One of the advantages of the course that I mentioned is that officers from all police forces make contacts that enable them to know where to obtain additional expertise in the private sector, and it also enables them to have contact with the computer crime unit of the Metropolitan police, whose skills they can take advantage of.
Mr. Speaker : Questions to the Prime Minister--
Mr. Nicholas Winterton : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Winterton : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I insist on raising it now.
Mr. Speaker : Insist? The hon. Gentleman is a member of the Chairman's Panel. He knows that I take points of order at their proper time, not in the middle of questions.
Mr. Winterton : I am sorry, but I cannot hear what is going on in this place. Could the instruments be adjusted to enable us to hear? Could they possibly be turned up so that we can hear what Ministers and others are saying? It is important.
Mr. Speaker : Was that the point of order?
Mr. Speaker : This is in the hands of the House. If hon. Members do not make a noise or interrupt from the Back Benches, they will hear. The louder the microphones are turned up, the greater is the reflection from the amplifier back to the microphones. It makes even more noise.
Mr. Skinner : Heseltine will change all that.
Mr. Speaker : Order. Let us start again.
PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Ashby : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 15 November.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher) : This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today, including one with Chief Buthelezi.
Mr. Ashby : Is my right hon. Friend aware that in 1983, when I was elected to the House, unemployment in my constituency was 16 per cent. but is now 3.2 per cent., despite losing its major industry of coal mining? Is she further aware that a recent study showed that there is more employment and greater prosperity than ever before? Is not that a reflection of experience throughout the country?
The Prime Minister : I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend's constituency is doing so well after eleven and a half years of Conservative Government : long may it
Column 704
continue. We have the lowest unemployment rate in the Community, with the exception of Luxembourg. We have created some 2 million jobs since we took office and the future will depend very much on precisely how people run their businesses and keep their costs competitive.Mr. Kinnock : Will the Prime Minister confirm that the Madrid conditions were imposed upon her by resignation threats from the then Foreign Secretary and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer?
The Prime Minister : Our undertaking to join the exchange rate mechanism stems from as far back as 1979, as the right hon. Gentleman will see if he looks at some of the manifestos of that period.
Mr. Kinnock : My question was specific, and so was the recollection of the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), with the obvious assent of the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson). Is the Prime Minister telling us that there were no resignation threats on the issue of the Madrid conditions?
The Prime Minister : I am telling you, Mr. Speaker, that the exchange rate mechanism undertaking is very long standing. The right hon. Gentleman will have heard from the Dispatch Box many times that we would join when the time was right ; we did join when the time was right, and no one has really been able to criticise that with validity.
Mr. Teddy Taylor : Is the Prime Minister aware that local education authorities in Britain last year spent £18.6 billion? Is she further aware that, if the share carried by the poll tax were transferred to national taxation, according to the House of Commons Library it would mean an increase in income tax of 20 per cent., or more than 5p in the pound? Does the Prime Minister agree that anyone who claims that educational spending could be transferred from local councils to the Government without a huge increase in national taxation must be a political joker?
The Prime Minister : If all education costs were transferred to central Government and the grant were left with local government, it would mean a huge increase in income tax--as my hon. Friend has said--or a substantial reduction in the moneys available for other services, such as health, pensions, defence and law and order. There would be either a big increase in income tax or a substantial reduction in other public expenditure. The alternative is to take away the grant from local authorities, which in fact greatly exceeds the amount spent on education.
Mr. Ashdown : Does the Prime Minister recall saying to the London Standard, exactly five years ago yesterday, that she would "go in 5 years"? Does she recall her words at that time? She said : "then I would have been in 11 years",
adding that the time would then have come for someone else to "carry the torch"? What has changed her mind?
| Next Section
| Home Page |