House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Nov 1990

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their overtime is cut. They point to all the police stations that have only partial opening. That was the position in Loughgall and it is no wonder that the police station was blown up by the terrorists. It was a target and when the police were removed from it, it was blown up.

I trust that the Secretary of State will listen to those who are actually involved in Northern Ireland, who are ordinary men. They must be certain that he will ensure that there is proper support for them. The Secretary of State says that in his memorandum he gives the assurance that violence will not succeed. I say to the right hon. Gentleman that violence will continue in the community. He says that he wants to pull the community away from supporting terrorism. As long as Sinn Fein members sit on councils and carry out the work of councillors--give advice and take people to the Housing Executive to deal with their complaints--that will not break the relationship between the IRA and the community.

Mr. Mallon : Part of the community.

Rev. Ian Paisley : That is what I am emphasising--it is that part of the community that gives the IRA support.

Rev. William McCrea (Mid-Ulster) : Can my hon. Friend confirm that rather than such support being diminished in that part of the community, it is increasing? In two recent by-elections in Northern Ireland, electoral support for Sinn Fein rose by between 15 per cent. and 25 per cent., yet we were told that the purpose of the Anglo-Irish Agreement was to take away support from Sinn Fein.

Rev. Ian Paisley : The House should heed my hon. Friend's words. There is no lack of support for the IRA. One Northern Ireland constituency is represented by an hon. Member who does not come to the House, thank God. He is very active in west Belfast. People from his constituency who come to talk to me about European problems say, "Our most active constituency Member is Gerry Adams, and we go to him with our problems." We shall never break the link between them until we say to the IRA, "You will not be admitted to the council chambers of the Province."

The Minister, the Secretary of State and his predecessor have been very firm and have never met Sinn Fein representatives, but they expect us to meet them. They expect the councillors who represent the party that I lead to sit with them. One of my Belfast councillors told me that one night he passed a Sinn Fein councillor who gestured with his finger and said, "We will get you yet."

Mr. Roy Beggs (Antrim, East) : Will the hon. Gentleman confirm, and remind those who may have forgotten, that some Sinn Fein councillors have been shot on terrorist missions?

Rev. Ian Paisley : I understand that someone cannot gain a nomination as a Sinn Fein councillor until he has proved himself with the Armalite and in terrorist activities. All the Sinn Fein councillors are involved in that, yet we have to sit with them. How can decent people be asked to sit with them? If a police officer, a civilian, or a friend of a council member is murdered, the council naturally proposes either to adjourn or to pass a message of condolence to the victim's family, but the Sinn Fein councillors attack the motion and refuse to vote for it. They make it clear why they will not vote for it.

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Mr. Dicks : Would the hon. Gentleman believe that Labour councillors in my local authority in England behave in exactly the same way when Tory mayors die?

Rev. Ian Paisley : I am surprised to hear that. I do not want to delve into Tory-Labour policies, but it is a sad state of affairs if it is true that when a Tory mayor dies Labour councillors will not support a message of condolence or offer any sympathy to that person's loved ones.

One Sinn Fein chairman of a council actually said that council workers were a fair target for the IRA to kill. Where do we go from there? I plead with the Government carefully to consider the problem and to begin to deal with the link between the community and the IRA. If we do not break that link, we shall never lessen the support for the IRA, especially when people depend on Sinn Fein members for run-of-the-mill matters.

Ulster is a sad place. Is there any hope? I believe that there is, provided that the Government not only say that they will deal with terrorism, but begin to take effective measures--some of which I have mentioned--so that it can clearly be perceived that there is the will to defeat terrorism. I trust that the agitation from Dublin to hinder the talks in Northern Ireland will cease, and that instead there will be talks about replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement with an alternative, which, when the IRA is defeated, will guarantee peace and stability for the people of Northern Ireland.

Rev. William McCrea : Does my hon. Friend agree that hon. Members would be interested in hearing the Opposition spokesman outline what effective measures the Labour party is proposing to defeat and eradicate terrorism?

Rev. Ian Paisley : That would be most helpful. It is a shame that my hon. Friend did not ask that question while the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North was speaking. However, the Opposition have an able spokesman to reply to the debate and I am sure that he will spell out their proposals in full.

I trust that there will be proper progress that will bring hope and freedom. As I said in a recent letter to the Prime Minister, we want progress that will set Northern Ireland on the road to the light. 5.26 pm

Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) : I welcome the statement by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) that, in principle, the Opposition do not dispute the need for emergency legislation. There has been no dispute in the House or in this debate about the need for emergency legislation, so I find it difficult to understand why the Opposition wish to divide the House.

The Secretary of State referred to the statement that he circulated when the Bill was published and in which he set out the policy that the Government are endeavouring to follow. It is important that we consider this legislation alongside the Government's policy and their overall objectives. It is wrong to think that we have ever believed that terrorism will be ended solely by repressive or military means. People say that there must be political measures to end terrorism, but invariably those political measures are wrong.

The correct political framework to surround security policy and legislation should be, first, the determination to

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ensure that terrorism will not succeed. I appreciate that the Secretary of State's policy document includes phrases of that nature, but unfortunately their effect and credibility are undermined by the Government's record. They have repeatedly allowed terrorism to succeed because political changes have been brought about as a result of terrorism. The Secretary of State will know that I refer principally to the constitutional change made five years ago, when the status of part of the United Kingdom was changed as a direct result of terrorism. Nobody could possibly believe that there would have been an Anglo-Irish Agreement had there been no terrorist campaign. Everyone knows that the agreement was entered into in the hope of appeasing the sources of that campaign. In doing that, the Government committed the cardinal error of indicating to terrorists that they could achieve success indirectly as a result of terrorism. That was a mistake, and it will be difficult for the Government to adopt a similar policy because of their failings in the past. The Government should at least endeavour in the future to ensure that no further political changes are made in an attempt to appease Irish nationalists, whatever form that appeasement may take.

In providing the correct policy framework for security matters, it is also important to make it clear to the terrorists that their primary objective will not be achieved. The terrorist resorts to violence not out of mindless activism but because he knows that it is the only way in which he can achieve his objective of a united Ireland. Statements by the Secretary of State and other members of the Government constantly refer to the possibility of Northern Ireland's constitutional position changing and are in themselves an encouragement.

It is not good enough simply to repeat the phrase, "There will be no change to the constitutional position of Northern Ireland unless a majority so desire." That holds out the possibility of change. Everyone knows that if one attaches oneself to normal democratic principles, there can be no change. Everyone knows also that there will never be freely given majority consent for a united Ireland. Therefore, constantly to refer to the possiblity of change is quite wrong.

What is wrong with the activities of republican terrorists is not just their methodology, in using the bomb, bullet and sometimes the ballot box as well, but their objective. It must be appreciated that the objective of trying to bring about a united Ireland is in itself wrong. A united Ireland can be achieved only by coercing the people of Northern Ireland by one means or another--whether that means is the violence of the IRA or political or financial blackmail and oppression. In that context, the objective of a united Ireland is wrong, and that lesson must be learnt not just by the Government but by the Labour party and several other parties represented in the House. We must acknowledge that the objective is wrong and immoral ; then it will be easier to defeat the expression of it.

Mr. Mallon : I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman realises the import of his remarks. He says that the position taken by the main Opposition party, the party to which I belong, and all the major parties in the Republic of Ireland is not just wrong but immoral. If the hon. Gentleman will examine the logic of that assertion, he may regret having made it. It is based on the premise that there

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will be no change in the attitudes of the people of Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman rules out any possibility of change by persuasion. I am sure that the House does not want another history lesson, because it has already been given one, but it should be remembered that not so long ago the main proponents of armed rebellion against a British presence in Ireland were members of the Protestant community. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman should not make sweeping statements or ascribe immorality to anyone.

Mr. Trimble : The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) does not display a proper appreciation of the situation. The conflict that exists is one of nationality--between that of the Irish nationalists who came into existence in the 19th century and that of the Ulster British people. No one suggests, in respect of any of the current conflicts in Europe, that people of one nationality could, should or are likely to change their national identity. They would not do that and the same is true of the people of Ulster. They will not change their national identity--and once there is acceptance of that, it will be realised that there cannot be a united Ireland by consent legitimately and freely given. It can come about only as a result of coercion in one form or another. Any attempt to coerce people into accepting the nationality of what is to them a foreign state would be immoral. I say that deliberately and I am fully aware of the implications of that statement.

Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East) : It surely cannot be argued that the objective of a neighbouring community to change in time the nationality of others is in itself evil. It is possible that the people of England, Scotland and Wales will change to a European identity in the context of the European Community. Some might argue against that development, but the objective itself cannot be said to be evil. In the case of the Provisional IRA, the evil comes in the methods that are used to distort the objective, rather than there being any evil within the nationalist community.

Mr. Trimble : I am reluctant to enter any discussion of the effects that Britain's membership of the European Community might have on our national identity and allegiance. That is a different issue, which may or may not be advanced slightly tomorrow.

It may be that what the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes) thinks of as Irish nationalism is in fact Irish imperialism--the attempt by a nation that exists as a part of Ireland to extend its rule to the whole island, irrespective of the wishes of its people. That is an imperialist claim which seeks some form of Irish irredentism analogous to the Italian irredentism that Mussolini and others sought, and which was of a similar moral character.

Mr. Mallon : Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the Unionist people in the north of Ireland have minds that are frozen in a time warp and that they are incapable of changing? Is not the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) only confirming a political condition whose existence many people have always suspected?

Mr. Trimble : We are not in any time warp. The people who are led down the cul-de-sac of history are those who are still serving the aims of Irish nationalism--or, to be more precise, of Irish imperialism. It is up to them to consider their position in that respect. I am making the

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point that it is important to end the constitutional uncertainty that the Government's policy has reinforced. That point was graphically made many times by my colleague the former right hon. Member for South Down, when he argued that the Government's actions were keeping the terrorist campaign alive and that it was essential for the Government to end uncertainty. Until they do so, we shall not see an end to the terrorist campaign.

There are lessons to be learnt from the 1920s, whether one considers the civil war in the Irish Free State or the disturbances in Northern Ireland. In both cases, when it became clear to the terrorists that they would not succeed, because the Dublin and Belfast Governments respectively were firmly established, their campaigns of violence quickly wound down.

Rev. Ian Paisley : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is immoral to claim that one's constitution gives jurisdiction over part of a territory that does not and cannot belong to one's own country--and in so doing encourage violence in trying to achieve the annexation of that territory?

Mr. Trimble : I agree entirely with what the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) said. Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution provide Irish republican terrorism with a moral mandate, or--as a friend of mine put it the other day--they are a "hunting licence" issued by the Irish Free State. We know what the targets of the hunting licence are.

I have some difficulty with the use of the word "emergency" in the title of the Bill. It has given rise to some

misconceptions--especially those of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North, when he referred to the operation of the rule of law. There can be different views of what constitutes the rule of law. The version that the hon. Gentleman gave us owed not a little to Dicey--it sounded like a garbled version of Dicey, which is fair enough. The mistake that some people make is to equate the rule of law with the current state of English common law, whatever it might be. Consequently, they think that any departure from English common law is a subversion of the rule of law. That is a rather exaggerated view of the merits of common law, which has merits but one should not elevate it to such a position that any departure from it is to be denounced.

We have various standards that spell out in detail the rule of law. In western Europe, the appropriate standard can be found in the European convention on human rights, which sets out a series of standards for the operation of the law as regards human rights, which are generally accepted and have been since their inception in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

The Bill is consistent with the European convention in all respects. It is not necessary for the Government to enter a derogation with regard to the Bill. No derogation operates as regards its predecessors. The Bill can be operated without derogating from the European convention in any way. Only one aspect of the Bill might cause difficulty--if powers of detention were reintroduced and implemented, that would necessitate derogation from the European convention. Apart from that, the legislation is consistent with the European convention.

As that is the case, I wonder why they are referred to as emergency provisions. There is provision within the

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European convention for derogation in cases of emergency. Under the convention, emergency provisions are those that depart from the convention, but this legislation does not--it is consistent with it. Therefore, it is misleading to think of it as an emergency provision.

It is misleading in another sense. An emergency is, or ought to be, something which is limited in time--of short duration. It should apply when something exceptional has come up, and one has to take exceptional measures to cope with it, which it is hoped will be effective within a short time. One is doing something out of the ordinary, but the Bill is ordinary in that it is consistent with the convention and so the provisions should not be labelled "emergency". They might have been emergency provisions in 1973, when they introduced the code for detention which was in operation then, and so it was necessary to have derogations from the European convention. We are not derogating from the European convention and the provisions are not emergency in the sense of being short lived. Such legislation has been on the statute book, in one form or another, since 1973 and is likely to be on the statute book for the foreseeable future. I wonder why we insist on thinking of the legislation as temporary or exceptional when it is neither.

The term "consolidation" has been used, but this is not really a consolidation Bill. However, we need consolidating measures to deal with all aspects of anti-terrorist legislation. That is what we should be thinking of--not the Emergency Provisions Acts or the Prevention of Terrorism Acts but what anti-terrorist legislation is required.

The world has a problem with terrorism ; it is not unique to either part of Ireland but also comes from other sources. The dangers may increase after 1992, as border controls wind down and other changes take place. There is probably a need for us to consider seriously what form of anti-terrorist legislation the United Kingdom--not merely Northern Ireland--needs. Lord Colville said very cogently in his report on the Prevention of Terrorism act 1986 :

"It seems to me that Her Majesty's Government might like to think again. There is now a very real threat of international terrorism impinging on the United Kingdom, as on any other country It does appear strange that the main measure which is designed to give powers against international terrorism should be annually renewable and completely entangled with the Northern Ireland problem, from which historically the legislation grew. It might be better now to design the range of control needs both at ports and internally to deal with international terrorism from the security viewpoint, with due regard to what is not within the powers of the immigration or customs services. This could with advantage include some points governed at present in detail by the Order There is neither rhyme or reason for some of the distinctions which appear in the Order. The Order does not deal comprehensively with international terrorism. If that were done it would be possible to see what powers, whether more or less, but possibly as a renewable supplement, would be needed for the Northern Ireland situation."

Lord Colville said that in 1987, and we agree that it is desirable to have anti-terrorist legislation in one Act which deals with the kingdom as a whole. It is silly to have at least two main Acts dealing with different aspects of terrorism, because the two interpenetrate. For example, arrest powers are provided for in the Emergency Provisions and the Prevention of Terrorism Acts. Most arrests in Northern Ireland were carried out under the Emergency Provisions Act but in recent years that practice has changed. Now the vast majority are carried out under the Prevention of Terrorism Act.

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The operations of the security forces in Northern Ireland rely quite heavily on the Prevention of Terrorism Act, which is a United Kingdom Act, rather than the Emergency Provisions Act, which is supposed to deal with terrorism in Northern Ireland. It would be better to put the two Acts together, along with whatever other pieces of legislation are required.

I think that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North might agree with that, because the amendment that he moved refers to a series of measures-- inquest public immunity certificates, the abolition of the right of silence --which are not included in the Emergency Provisions Act but deal with related matters. It would be better for those to be put into one Act.

A practical advantage is that it would be so much easier for the people who operate the legislation and those who are affected by it to know what it provides if they could refer to a single Act, and not have to chase through several Acts to find out the position. It would simplify life for policemen and soldiers, who have to operate the legislation, and for citizens who are affected by it.

Access to and knowledge of the law is important, and the present arrangement of legislation does not facilitate that. I urge the Government, rather than to consider almost routine re-enactment of provisions with only minor amendments, to consider comprehensive legislation, on a United Kingdom basis, giving normal provisions to deal with terrorism. The problem exists and will continue to exist in the foreseeable future. There will be terrorist threats of one sort or another. We need to consider what sort of legislation should be passed to deal with them. We may want to make some special additional provisions to deal with particular situations, but we believe that there is an argument for permanent anti-terrorist legislation. The main provision in the Act is for a different form of trial through what are called the Diplock courts, which are essentially non-jury courts, presided over by a single judge. Clearly, the concept of a single judge gives some hon. Members problems. I confess that I had doubts about whether a single judge was the most effective system

However, after several years' experience, I am satisfied that a single- judge court is the only effective way of dealing with such cases. I know that it is normal to defend the single-judge Diplock courts in terms of the difficulty of providing multi-judge courts in Northern Ireland. The small size of the legal profession there and the age distribution within the Bar mean that it would be extremely difficult to recruit the additional judges who would be needed if we were to have multi-judge courts. There is an argument for saying that, with the unanimity rule, two judges would be sufficient. However, it would still be extremely difficult to staff such courts. Hon. Members will know that there is considerable difficulty at the moment in recruiting judges for the county courts. I believe that there is still one vacancy. There is great difficulty in getting anyone to accept such an appointment. One hears rumours about trawls being made through the Bar library in considerable detail, ranging down to people who are quite junior, in an attempt to persuade people to accept an appointment in the county or Crown courts. The latter provide some of the judicial manpower for the Diplock courts.

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The position in the High Court is not altogether happy either, although I do not intend to discuss that in detail now. Nevertheless, there is growing unease in Northern Ireland about the way in which High Court appointments are made. This summer I heard a person who has been involved in politics in the Irish Republic say, "Thanks to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, we now have an input into the selection of judges." I was appalled. If politicians in the Irish Republic continue to boast that they are responsible for the appointment of certain judges, that will have more disastrous consequences for public confidence in the judiciary than any of the provisions in the Bill. However, that is a different matter for another consideration. Not only is it difficult to recruit judges for multi -judge courts, but such courts are likely to be unsatisfactory. We have the example of the special criminal court in the Irish Republic which consists of three judges--three different lawyers. Those who practise before the special criminal court in the Irish Republic say that the multiplicity of judges provides no defence and no safeguard for the accused. In practice, the senior judge makes the decision. Even if, on occasions, counsel manage to evoke some sympathy in one of the judges, that judge is quickly brought into line by the others. I heard a senior lawyer, who is also involved in politics in the Irish Republic, say unofficially not so long ago that he regarded the special criminal court as a sentencing court. Therefore, having three judges is not by itself a safeguard. A single judge with a reasoned judgment provides a better safeguard, because that single judge knows that he must give his reasons in detail and that the sole responsibility for making a decision rests on him. That leads to a tendency for caution.

I am convinced that in the vast majority of cases, thanks largely to the quality of the judiciary, the single-judge Diplock courts have delivered justice. I sometimes wonder whether those who are so concerned about the danger of judgment by a single man--and who consequently criticise the Diplock courts--occasionally think about the other single-judge courts which we have in Northern Ireland, and which we have had since 1935. I refer to the courts of summary jurisdiction which, as hon. Members know, are presided over in Northern Ireland by a single judge, whom we call a resident magistrate and who is equivalent to a stipendiary magistrate in England and Wales. We do not have any benches of justices. We do not have any justices of the peace to exercise judicial functions. All the magistrates courts' decisions are made by a single judge. That is what happens in the vast majority of cases that go through the courts of summary jurisdiction.

I should add that I do not have the same confidence in the quality of the magistracy as I have in the quality of the High Court judges, but perhaps I should go into that in more detail at another time and in another place. However, that point should be of greater concern than the Diplock courts to those who are worried about the effect of having a single judge.

I cite as evidence the way in which the Diplock courts operate. The effective conviction rate in the Diplock courts varies between half and three quarters. It is a little higher than the conviction rate in jury trials, but that is only to be expected because an accused person who is to appear before a single judge is less likely to plead not guilty in a hopeless case. There will always be those who will plead not guilty in hopeless cases before a jury in the hope that their clever lawyer will get them off. However, people do not pursue hopeless cases to the same extent before a single

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judge. Consequently, it is natural that there should be a slightly higher conviction rate in single-judge courts compared with jury courts.

Diplock courts have another advantage. English lawyers wishing to make comparisons, who can be bothered to come over to Belfast to look at the operation of the courts, find that the business is conducted with remarkable efficiency. Trials in Northern Ireland rarely take half the time that is taken for an equivalent trial in England. That is because there are certain lines of argument that one would not bother to pursue before a single judge because he will not bother listening to it. Things are different with a jury. One cannot try it on before a judge as one would before a jury. Judges are quick to pick up the points and the argument must be put more precisely and more concisely. That is why trials proceed much more quickly, with consequent and not inconsiderable savings to the public purse, though that is by the way.

I am conscious that if the suggestion that I made earlier about permanent legislation to deal with terrorism on a United Kingdom basis were adopted, that would allow for the use of Diplock-style courts in Great Britain. Of course, it depends on the mechanism that is used to introduce the Diplock courts and I have one in mind. The mechanism could be borrowed from the Irish Republic's Criminal Law and Procedure Act 1887, which provided for special courts and for non-jury courts. That Act was on the statute book in Ireland from 1887 until 1922. There is nothing unusual about such legislation. We have always had it in Ireland in one shape or form. The former Lord Justice Turlough O'Donnell used to refer to that Act as "the old Act". He had been in practice long enough to have heard stories about the operation of "the old Act". Under that Act, it was possible for an order to be made that all cases in a particular area, usually defined by county, were to be held before the special court, or for cases to be moved from one part of the jurisdiction to another. Borrowing from that procedure, it would be possible for the Lord Chancellor to make an order, subject to parliamentary approval, for the operation of Diplock-style courts in any jurisdiction within the kingdom or possibly within any part of the jurisdiction, or with regard to specific cases.

The use of such a mechanism would enable Diplock-style courts to be used in England in terrorist cases. I believe that there is a serious argument for so doing. Terrorist cases are not like ordinary crimes. A terrorist action strikes at the whole community and gives rise to an emotional reaction that can affect the operation of justice. There are parallels here with cases that have already been mentioned, such as the Guildford and Birmingham cases, which gave rise to strong emotional reactions. In that context, juries will not operate terribly effectively. It has been suggested that, in terrorist cases in England, juries will inevitably convict no matter who appears before them. That is because the juror himself or herself feels a potential object of the terrorist act. Although he or she will not be personally involved, because of the way in which terrorism strikes at the community, an individual serving on a jury will feel personally involved and, as a consequence, may not render a true verdict. That is part of the reason why jury trials were discontinued in Northern Ireland. It was not just because of intimidation of the witnesses or other parties involved. The real fear was of perverse verdicts, perverse convictions and, in some cases, perverse acquittals. It would be a brave

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practitioner in England and Wales who, looking at a jury dealing with a terrorist case, could not say that there were no perverse convictions.

Rev. Ian Paisley : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the debate on that matter it was pointed out that there were only two perverse decisions by juries to which the judge drew attention at that time? That is on the record.

Mr. Trimble : Is the hon. Gentleman referring to a particular time in the early 1970s in Northern Ireland or to a particular time in England?

Rev. Ian Paisley : I am referring to juries in Northern Ireland at that time.

Mr. Trimble : It is difficult to establish the incidence of perverse acquittals and convictions in Northern Ireland at that time. Such issues depend so much on individual appreciation and opinion. No one can be absolutely sure of the facts. The numbers involved may be small. No matter what the rate, when a problem arises one is justified in looking at the form of trial in order to find a different form in which there can be a degree of neutrality. The decisions that a Diplock-style court makes will not always be right. In terrorist cases, however, there is a strong case for saying that a Diplock-style court will be better than a jury trial. It will not be perfect ; any human system is bound to contain imperfections and failures. I should be amazed if wrong verdicts had not been reached in the Diplock courts in Northern Ireland.

However, what strikes me is the relative paucity of instances in which people have produced convincing evidence to show that there was a miscarriage of justice. I say that in the knowledge that recently evidence has been produced that shows that there was a miscarriage of justice. I refer to the Armagh UDR Four. I am now convinced that they were innocent and that they were improperly convicted. That case stands out by itself ; there have been no other similar cases of which I am aware in which convincing evidence was produced to show that there had been a miscarriage of justice.

There is gossip from time to time in legal circles that a decision may have been wrong. During one of the so-called supergrass cases a few years ago, I was told by counsel that he was satisfied that his client was wrongly convicted. He was on a minor charge--of allowing his premises to be used by terrorists in which they could hold meetings. According to counsel, the problem in that case was that two people of the same name lived in that street, that the supergrass had identified the wrong person with the same name, that his client was innocent and that he had a perfect alibi that would have shown that he was in a completely different place at the time, which would have secured his acquittal had he been able to give his alibi in court. Unfortunately, however, the principal person accused, the leader of the IRA in the area concerned, gave an order to the effect that nobody was to go into the witness box or to call evidence in their own instance. The other person, although he was not involved with the IRA, had to go back into that area, so he accepted the IRA's order not to give evidence, thus allowing himself to be convicted, even though he was innocent. His conviction was quashed on appeal. All the convictions in that case were quashed on appeal, but that is another story. That is one of the very

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few instances of which I am aware in which, according to counsel, the accused was wrongly convicted. There will have been some wrong convictions, but not many.

The other principal provisions relating to the Diplock courts deal with confessions and the reversal of the onus of proof in certain cases. Colville recommended that the Government ought to consider more closely the videotaping of interviews. All interviews are monitored by television cameras. A senior police officer looks at the television screen from time to time. If interviews were videotaped, without sound, the video tapes would be available to the inspector to see whether any ill-treatment had occurred. A substantial amount of investment would be involved in providing a bank of video tapes. A certain amount of time would also be involved in looking at the video tapes. If the interrogation took place over a long period, one would have to look at the video tape for a similar period. Colville made the point, which has some weight, that the amount of time involved in looking at the video tapes would lead to a saving of time at the trial, since hopeless points would not be pursued when there was no evidence to back them up.

There are certain reservations about videotaping. There would have to be an absence of sound. It is important that the words spoken should not be available, since that might enable terrorist organisations to discover what information the security forces had about their operations in particular places and what statements had been made by persons under interrogation, perhaps implicating other people. Precautions would also have to be taken to protect the identity of the police officers concerned so that they could not be targeted.

I do not, however, believe that these problems are insurmountable. They would reduce the number of cases in which people argue that brutality has occurred. There are not many cases, I believe, in which the police give way to the temptation to use physical abuse. However, allegations are made to that effect. A method that could effectively quash those allegations would be very much in the interests of the security forces, because a lot of silly people believe these allegations. It would be of considerable value to be able to refute them effectively.

The provision relating to the reversal of the onus of proof requires little comment. The judiciary operates it sensibly. In that context, the effect of the reversal of the onus of proof is to compel the person charged with the possession of explosives or firearms to go into the witness box. The way that judges operate that provision is to compel a person to go into the witness box to give evidence of his knowledge, or absence of knowledge, of things found on his premises.

A clear analogy can be made with the provisions in the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989, which modifies the so-called right to silence. The concern expressed in some quarters about this modification of the right to silence is perhaps exaggerated. When one looks at the sensible way in which the courts handle the reversal of the onus of proof cases, there are ample grounds for reassurance.

The other main provision in the Bill relates to the power of detention. I am afraid that this is a matter on which we part company with the Government. It is not right to rule out the use of that power. I appreciate that that power is

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provided for in the legislation, but statements made from time to time by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland appear to rule out its use. That is not wise. A serious case can be made for the use of the detention power. We know that the police and the Army are having difficulty over apprehending persons, with sufficient evidence to bring cases to court. One only has to look at the figures mentioned by Diplock and Colville and at those that are available elsewhere. In 1984-85, well over 500 cases a year went through the Diplock courts. That figure rose to nearly 700 in 1985-86. In recent years, however, it has dropped back to just over 400. Fewer cases are going through the Diplock courts.

We know that in many cases guilty men go free, either because witnesses will not come forward or because the terrorist is careful enough to destroy any forensic evidence. Moreover, he has been trained to withstand interrogation. There is, therefore, a strong argument for looking again at the use of the detention powers. The point that is always made is that they were tried and did not work. They did work--in 1922, 1940 and 1956. They did not work in 1971. One must consider carefully the reasons why they did not work in 1971. If one does so, one sees that the reasons were that the intelligence base that was used was poor and that during the previous two years the RUC had effectively been prevented from operating by the Government. The result was that the RUC's information was out of date. Moreover, the Army had not built up any effective information. Not only was the intelligence base poor but the operation was carried out crudely in all senses of the word. When ordinary squaddies are told, as they were in 1971, that they have an opportunity to get their own back on the people who have been shooting and throwing stones at them in the previous months, it is not surprising that some of them take those words at face value and get their own back. It was understandable. Of course, it was wrong. It helped to corrupt the operation. One needs to look carefully at the mistakes that were made then and consider how they could be remedied. I believe that one can remedy them.

We now have a much better intelligence base on which to operate than we had in 1971. That is indisputable. We also know that a limited number of persons are involved in terrorism. We may argue about the exact number, but it is common ground that it is a limited number and that the key players take care never to become involved in ways that would expose them to arrest. That is the argument in favour of selective detention.

As hon. Members will be aware, it is just over a week since we had a particularly appalling atrocity in my constituency. A week ago last Saturday, four wildfowlers who had gone out on a day's recreation were ambushed and slaughtered by the IRA. Of the four, two were policemen and two had no connection with the security forces. They were just friends who went out on that occasion. Such an incident gives rise to considerable feelings and tension. I shall not indulge in an emotional statement on the matter, but I should like to quote from an address delivered at the first funeral of the victims last Monday. The address was given by the Right Rev. Matthews of the first Lurgan Presbyterian church, and former moderator of the Presbyterian church--the largest non-Catholic church in Ulster. He is a responsible person. He was speaking at the funeral of Keith Dowey, a young

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man who was not a member of the security forces. Keith was the product of a mixed marriage--his mother was a Roman Catholic. The Right Rev. Matthews said :

"May I remind the Government that its primary responsibility is the protection of its citizens. In this respect, the Government is signally failing at present. How can our society enjoy normality or peace while vicious criminals, known to the police, are free to stalk the land and strike at will? The community is tired of words. It cries for action. Statements about a determination to win sound hollow to broken hearts unless the freedom of the killers is removed.

Our Government is far too much concerned for our reputation abroad and far too little for our safety at home. Our Government seems to reserve far greater sensitivity for the feelings of those who give latent or overt support to terrorists, than for decent, upright, law-abiding citizens.

Of the 346 murders"--

it is now 347--

"committed by terrorists in the last five years, three out of every four were committed by republican terrorists and one out of every four by loyalist terrorists. Only one in 10 of republican terrorist murders have been resolved in the courts while one in two of loyalist terrorist murders have been so resolved.

Something more is needed to compensate for the inadequacies of the law to deal with terrorists sheltered by sympathisers.

Our Government has been ill-advised in its reluctance to introduce selective internment. How can we continue to expose our security forces (and civilians) in their daily duty and in their times of leisure to the evil of these psychopaths? It is surely time for common sense to prevail. I believe that the vast majority of both communities would breathe a sigh of relief to have known killers from both communities, in proportion to their numbers, put out of circulation.

One sure way to make the situation worse is for the Government to continue its present inaction in this regard."

As the Secretary of State will know, the Right Rev. Matthews had many occasions on which he could have criticised the Government when he was moderator of the Presbyterian church. He told me after the funeral that he never took any of those opportunities. That statement made at Keith Dowey's graveside was the first time that the Right Rev. Matthews had publicly attacked the Government. He is a responsible man. He expressed a widespread feeling when he called for more action and specifically for the operation of selective detention powers to take the terrorists out of operation.

I can conclude in no better way than by repeating the last sentence of that statement.

"One sure way to make the situation worse is for the Government to continue its present inaction in this regard."

The present legislation merely extends the existing legislation with minor changes. The Government have stated that they will continue their security policy. As the hon. Member for Antrim, North said, to continue that policy is to condemn the community to further terrorism and suffering. We need more effective action.

6.15 pm

Sir David Mitchell (Hampshire, North-West) : I shall be brief but I want to put one particular point to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Before I do so, I stress that those in Northern Ireland who believe that they can persuade United Kingdom Ministers to change their policy by any degree of terrorism have wholly misjudged the British character and the character of Ministers in this or any other Government. Those in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland who believe that acts of terrorism can change the view of the British electorate have sadly misjudged the character of the British people. That point needs to be put across because we must disabuse at every

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opportunity those who involve themselves in terrorism of the misunderstanding and misjudgment that lies behind their expectation that they can achieve something by their acts of terrorism. I support the Bill, first, because it enacts legislation that enables the Government to prosecute the campaign against terrorism with fairness and firmness ; secondly, because it recognises that we shall need a continuing and sustained campaign against violence from either side of the sectarian divide ; and, thirdly, because it seeks to ensure that terrorists are caught and brought to trial within the due processes of law, with all the rights that that confers on a suspect until he is proven guilty.

While dealing with the due processes of law, I should like to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, or my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who will reply to the debate, whether any research has been carried out into the right of silence. If so, what has the research shown? My other questions to my right hon. Friend the Minister are the portent of what I want to say to the House. Is he satisfied that the RUC and the security forces have the benefit of all the electronic research and development that they need? Considerable scientific advances have been made in electronics and the House would like to know that the RUC and security forces have the most advanced research and development at their disposal. We all know that science has reached the point at which a house can be spotted from a satellite. It seems that we should be able to do more to spot an illegal border crossing than we do with the methods that we now use. Has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State noted the high proportion of offences that take place within striking distance of the border? One must ask why the border is such an attractive area for committing offences. To what extent is there still the opportunity for terrorists to strike and escape across the border into relative safety? I am not in any way attacking the Gardai, who have been doing much more than they used to and who are co- operating immensely well with out security forces. Nevertheless, a disproportionately high number of offences are occurring in that area and it leads one to ask whether more can be done to ensure co-operation and prevention.

Finally, would there be an advantage in applying electronic tagging to some of those who are on bail, bound over to keep the peace, serving non- custodial sentences, on probation or granted a remission of sentence for scheduled offences under part I of the Bill? It might even apply to those who would be candidates for detention, although I understand why my right hon. Friend does not want detention to apply in the Province. Nevertheless, that might be an area where something can be done.

My questions are all in the area of electronics, technology and technological advance. I seek assurances that all that can be done is being done to introduce technological advances to assist the forces of security and law and order in the Province.

6.21 pm

Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh) : We have had an interesting debate with a smattering of political opinion and historical reference--I almost said historical fact. It is right to consider the Bill in a political dimension because in the last analysis there is not a clear distinction between solving security problems and solving political

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problems. If hon. Members believe that a solution can be found in terms of security--I do not--they are going in the wrong direction. That is one of the myths that has caused problems for legislation throughout the years. One of the difficulties is that that has had an effect on the political process. We should not think of the two issues separately. They are so closely intertwined and interlocked that we cannot look at one without also looking at the other. That has been made obvious by some speeches.

I challenged the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) on his views about morality or immorality in relation to political stances. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) referred to it. It is remarkable that the great political obsession of the IRA is with the immorality of partition. Over the years all its statements and everything that it has written refer to the immorality of partition.

At one stage when our party confronted the IRA across the table with the contradictions of its position, we said, "Look, you cannot judge these things in terms of morality or immorality. They are there and that is the reality." The use of immoral methods can never be a basis for dealing with something that one considers to be wrong. It is difficult, if not silly, for anybody who values the political process to state that a political ideology is immoral because he does not agree with it or because others have debased or abused it. The hon. Member for Upper Bann said that there were no circumstances in which the Unionist people of the north of Ireland would ever change their minds. I assume that he is so strongly convinced of the conviction of the Unionist people that he believes that they will not change their minds. Alternatively, is he telling us that they are incapable of moving out of what I call a time warp? Only a short time ago the leaders of Republican armed insurrection in the north of Ireland came from the very same tradition. Think of Roddy McCorley from north Antrim, John Mitchell from the area of my constituency and Theobald Wolfe Tone. I could go on for ever. When we talk in those terms we must be absolutely clear that we are not locking ourselves into historical traps. One of our difficulties is that the warping of history has played such a dominant role that we sometimes do not see the present clearly or anticipate the future.

Mr. Trimble : The hon. Gentleman is making the mistake that is common to Irish Nationalists. He misunderstands and misrepresents the 1798 incidents. Wolfe Tone was never a member of the Ulster British community. By no stretch of the imagination could he possibly be described as such. Those Presbyterians were not all of the Presbyterian community. The element of that community who supported the united Irish ideals were not seeking the Irish nationalist state or participating in an Irish national enterprise. They were essentially seeking democratic rights and reform within the kingdom. That can be seen by how, within months of the Act of Union, it was completely accepted by the Ulster British people.

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