House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Nov 1990

Mr. David Davis (Boothferry) : As an English Member of Parliament, it is with some trepidation that I speak in the debate--not for any constitutional reason, because I view the constituents of all right hon. and hon. Members as every bit as British as my own. But perhaps the one thing that unites the hon. Members for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea), for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) is that they live through and suffer the pain of the consequences of terrorism at first hand, whereas the rest of us merely read or hear about them, or see them on television. We do not have to face those consequences day in, day out, through the years. Some of the speeches made today give eloquent testimony to the pain that is caused to the hon. Members who represent constituencies in that tragically torn Province.

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The hon. Member for Upper Bann referred to the speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), in which he spoke of the move away from the rule of law in applying the provisions of the Bill. He was speaking of the conventional view of the civil rights basis of British law, which is best encapsulated in the statement that it is better that 10 guilty men go free than that one innocent man be wrongfully imprisoned. Today we heard about the consequences of one guilty man going free, in that it can lead to 10 innocent men being wrongfully killed.

The scales of justice are difficult to balance in such a trade-off. The stance taken by the Opposition today tipped that balance very much against the interests of the victim and, sadly, in favour of the terrorists. Such a stance might be appropriate in the mainland society in which we live, but not for a society riven by evil organisations, such as Northern Ireland.

Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South) : I am surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman say that, and only regret that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) cannot be here to speak for himself. My hon. Friend made it clear that Labour's policy offers no succour to terrorists. It is that any deviations from the law as it applies in the rest of the United Kingdom must be justified. We do not suggest that there should be no deviations, but that if there are changes from the generality of the law as enforced in the United Kingdom, they must be justified.

Mr. Davis : I am also sorry that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North is not in his place, because we are constituency neighbours and we usually have great respect for one another. I could deal clause by clause with some of the points that he made, but frankly I do not think that he understood them. One, dealing with the important issue of evidence, is particularly important, but I shall return to that.

The attack on terrorism can be placed into three categories. First, there are the political initiatives to take away the grounds for discontent that provide a breeding ground for terrorism. Secondly, there is direct action, much of which is encapsulated in the Bill, by the police and security forces. Thirdly, there are indirect actions, having the aim of strangulating terrorism. The best example of that in previous legislation was denying the oxygen of publicity to terrorist organisations. More recently, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has taken several legislative and executive initiatives to deny terrorist organisations funds in the form of income from racketeering. That is a major advance and should be commended.

Each of those policies and strategies has a down side. While there can be no doubt about the need for political initiatives, their very existence offers some hope to republicans, who may think that, one day, they will get their own way and that they become more plausible. One must live with that down side. Similarly, even in the best-run military operations relating to terrorism, mistakes are made, which may occasionally create problems that help to recruit supporters for terrorist organisations.

Anyone who has witnessed a detailed house-to-house search will know that, however careful may be the people who carry it out, it is never a pleasant process for the

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families who are on the receiving end. The individual who has had his house searched is bound to feel some grievance, so there is a down side to even the most legitimate and carefully executed operation undertaken by the military or security forces.

I join the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster and other hon. Members in acknowledging what a difficult job the security forces perform and how well they have undertaken it in difficult and unpleasant circumstances over a long period. I add my congratulations to them on that. It occurs to me that indirect attacks on terrorism have less of a down side. It is difficult to see how anyone could be martyred by having his accounts properly scrutinised, or how antagonism could be created by the administrative aspects of the work against racketeering. That is an area on which more emphasis should be placed. My right hon. Friend has done much in that connection already, but we should debate further what we can and should do to defeat terrorist racketeering.

In concentrating on IRA racketeering, I do not underestimate its other forms ; the Provisional IRA has business operations that produce about £5 million a year. The income comes from black cabs, drinking clubs, smuggling, protection--from all types of illegal activity in Northern Ireland, and sadly from some legitimate activities. By raising about £5 million a year, the Provisional IRA, its allies and opponents do about£500 million worth of damage to Northern Ireland each year. I do not count the grief, misery, death and destruction that we have already heard about ; merely the economic and public cost. Every £1 raised does £100 worth of damage. On those grounds alone we ought to consider the importance of our strategy to deal with racketeering and of increasing the resources devoted to it. That is not to say that funding should be reduced in other areas, because all the work that we do is essential, but we must emphasise the work required and support it.

It is also worth considering what the IRA achieves in nationalist communities in west Belfast and elsewhere through the existence of such commercial operations. It is difficult for an English Member of Parliament who does not come from the Province or live there, but I have tried to imagine what life must be like for a young Catholic in his teens growing up in west Belfast. If he goes for a drink, where does he go? There are no pubs, so he goes to a republican drinking club. By passing money across the bar he inadvertently contributes to the Provisional IRA. He is surrounded by the symbols of militant republicanism when he does so. If he travels, he goes by black cab, and contributes to the IRA. If he buys a "black" video, he contributes to the IRA. If he wants to get a job, where does he go? In many cases the local IRA chieftain has the patronage to give him work on building sites. If he wants housing advice or to know how to get housing benefit, he will go to a Provisional Sinn Fein advice centre, which is probably paid for out of IRA funds raised by the methods that I mentioned.

In the worst cases, the young man might know someone in his street who is a prisoner and whose family get a pension from the Provisional IRA. It is not difficult to imagine how any young man in those circumstances--surrounded by anti-British, sectarian propaganda, his life permeated by all those tentacles of Provisional IRA activity--can easily be seduced into the organisation, into its line of thinking and the type of action that it tries to

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encourage. As a result, it is hardly surprising to hear that very young IRA members have been captured in the past few months. Therefore, it is critical that the Northern Ireland Office does several things about racketeering. Any action that it takes must be quick. The Provisional IRA and other terrorist organisations--either independently or by mimicry--have proved innovative when it comes to raising money. Some other methods that I did not mention, which are used south of the border, include selling illegal hormones for agriculture and smuggling. As one closes down one operation, another is opened up to provide more money for terrorism, as we have witnessed in the past few years.

Any policy that we decide upon to try to improve the situation, as opposed to nibbling at the edges or keeping things as they are now, must quickly make inroads into such activities. It will require more than one method-- more than mere legislation in the House. Such policy needs to be comprehensive and to deal with several areas of activity at the same time. Because of those requirements, the policy will also have to encompass social action, legislation such as the Bill and other Acts, and action at European level so that European directives can be used to prevent such commercial activities evading us by crossing borders.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has to consider several issues. Another problem is that any action taken has to be watertight. One of the best examples of non-watertight action was the Government's attempt to cut off the oxygen of publicity. This week, "Panorama" on BBC television carried pictures of known terrorists with actors' voices dubbed over them to get round the legislation. That makes a mockery of our policies. We must ensure that other policies do not fall down because of such loopholes, technical or otherwise.

There are two ways in which the Bill does not go far enough. I am not a lawyer, I cannot be sure that what I have to say is accurate, but I hope that the Secretary of State will give this matter some attention in Committee. First, clause 22 allows the search for and acquisition of documents for evidence, within the limits of clause 30--in other words, documents that will be used to further terrorism. I understand why it is unimportant that a limitation should be placed upon that right. However, documentary evidence will become more and more important, especially in indirect ways, to stop terrorism. For example, it would be a tragedy if a search turned up documents, but because the search was under a warrant constructed under the Bill, and the documents were relevant to the section in the prevention of terrorism Act that aims to prevent the funding of terrorism, the action failed. We may have created a lacuna because of the way that the Bill is drafted. While I am conscious of the issue of the limitation of powers, that loophole should be considered in Committee.

The second matter that the Bill does not cover--I know that it will raise hackles on the Opposition Benches because of civil rights--is the use of information collected by telephone tapping. At the moment we are able to intercept communications in Northern Ireland under legally and administratively constrained arrangements. Such information is not allowed in a court of law. It seems to me that it is no more of an infringement of civil liberties to allow such information to be used in a court of law than to gather it in the first place. Therefore, I should like that

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to be included in the Bill. The key distinguishing factor of law and order in Northern Ireland is the problem of intimidation of juries and witnesses. Therefore, other forms of evidence are critical, and any form of evidence that can help us save lives is worth considering.

We must recognise that mistakes can cost lives. We recognise that intellectually, and several hon. Members who represent the Province have told us about the pain, misery and suffering that can arise from such errors. We do not take that lightly. I see that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North has now returned to the Chamber. None of us takes lightly the trade-off with civil rights, but civil rights are being played against lives. We must always keep that in our minds, and with that in mind I have much pleasure in commending the Bill to the House.

8.9 pm

Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) : The hon. Member for Boothferry (Mr. Davis) expressed some reservations about daring to speak on a matter pertaining to Northern Ireland. Having listened to him, I believe that his sympathy and understanding and the practical way in which he dealt with the issue have singled him out as one who should speak more often on this subject. I appreciate his contribution.

As I live in Northern Ireland, I must inevitably welcome the Bill, not because I want there to be a need for emergency legislation, but because I recognise that, without it, we will be even worse off than we are today.

I regret having to make my next point, because I have some respect for the Secretary of State and for the way in which he has tried to address our problems, but, having welcomed the legislation, I must now express my deep reservations about some comments that he has published about the Bill. They are almost a paradox, because the right hon. Gentleman began by saying :

"It is the Government's duty to ensure that the law is effective for that purpose"

--that purpose is dealing with terrorism. However, he later stated :

"The Bill does not represent any change in our security policy." That appears to be a total contradiction, especially when one considers that, in 1985, the number of deaths from terrorism had dropped to 47, but has now risen to 84 and that the figure for this year is still much in excess of the figure for 1985. We do not want no change ; we want effective change.

I do not want to quote all the Secretary of State's comments, but I believe that he chose the wrong word when he said :

"The Government believes that, taken as a whole, the Bill represents an appropriate response to the current terrorist threat". The word that I doubt is "appropriate". What does the Secretary of State mean by "appropriate"? Does he mean "appropriate" purely in political terms, in terms of how the handling of the affair by the Government of Northern Ireland might be seen in Great Britain or the United States? Like many other hon. Members, I should have preferred the right hon. Gentleman to use the word "adequate" and to talk about "an adequate response", because, despite the best efforts of our security forces and despite the endurance of the vast majority of the

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law-abiding community, this legislation, as the Secretary of State interprets it, is unlikely to contain let alone eradicate terrorism. The House has had the benefit of listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble), who spoke about the emergency provisions legislation from the legal viewpoint. It is not for me to follow several other hon. Members who have indulged more in philosophical arguments than in practical arguments about the legislation. It is right that the philosophy of the way in which we deal with terrorism should be addressed, but for those of us who live in Northern Ireland there is an urgency about this. There is a practical sense and a reality which, at times, becomes impatient with those who indulge solely in the philosophical debate.

I can best illustrate what I mean by reminding the House of exactly what terrorism means in Northern Ireland in stark terms. I shall take the period of exactly five years from 15 November 1985 to 14 November this year. In those five years we have had the Anglo-Irish Agreement--some would tell us that we have had the benefits of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, but others would tell the truth. During that time there have been 347 murders--an average murder rate per year that is almost exactly 50 per cent. higher than the murder rate in 1985. Of those 347 murders--

Mr. Brooke rose --

Mr. Maginnis : If the Secretary of State will allow me to finish, I shall certainly give way to him later.

Of those 347 murders, 259, or 74.6 per cent. were carried out by republican terror groups, 83, or 23.9 per cent., were carried out by loyalist terror groups and five are attributed to a person or persons unknown. Of the victims, 119 have been Roman Catholics, and 49, or 41.2 per cent., of those Roman Catholics have been killed by republican paramilitary groups ; 68, or 57.1 per cent., of the Roman Catholic victims were killed by loyalists ; and the murders of two of the victims, or 1.1 per cent., were attributed to a person or persons unknown. Among the 228 Protestant victims, the deaths of 210, or 92.1 per cent., of them are attributable to republican terrorism ; 15, or 6.6 per cent., are attributable to loyalist terror groups and three, or 1.3 per cent., are attributed to persons unknown.

I know that statistics can be boring, but I should like to complete them before setting them to one side. I remind the House of what has happened year by year since 1985 in terms of terrorist killings. I advise the Secretary of State, to whom I shall give way shortly, that I am dealing in Anglo-Irish Agreement years--that is, from 15 November one year to 14 November the next year. In 1985, before the agreement was signed, there were 47 terrorist murders. In 1986, that had risen to 59. In 1987, it had risen to 80 and in 1988 the number was 84. In 1989 the figure dropped to 54. Although that figure was still much too high, we were grateful for that temporary and partial respite. However, in the past year, the figure has risen again, to 70. I shall deal later with why the figure dropped in 1989 because there is a lesson to be learned from that, but I give way first to the Secretary of State.

Mr. Brooke : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I simply wonder whether, later in his speech, he will dwell on the coincidence of the years that he is quoting to the period during which the Provisional IRA has been heavily armed by Gaddafi of Libya.

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Mr. Maginnis : I shall endeavour to address that point later for the benefit of the Secretary of State.

I should like to ask the Secretary of State a question. Who will protect the people of Northern Ireland? The answer may seem simple, but I ask the question because I do not believe that over the years the Government have taken adequate steps, in terms of active and practical measures, to deal with the continued suffering of the people who live in Northern Ireland. I refer not just to those who live in Northern Ireland. There are those in Great Britain who have also become the IRA's victims. In the light of the events of the past year, one should include, too, those throughout Europe who have suffered at the hands of the same organisation.

It may seem to be trite, but it is not meant to be, when I say that we know that the RUC, the Regular Army and the Ulster Defence Regiment, to which I pay the greatest compliment for its endurance and courage, will endeavour to protect us. If, however, one deals separately with each of those services, we know that each has to carry out its duty under constraints that ought not to be imposed upon it. We accept that our security services must abide by the rule of law, but other things could be done and other steps could be taken to make their role more effective and to provide them with more protection.

During the last few years, the RUC has experienced greater and greater difficulty in operating within its financial budget. That makes itself manifest in various ways, not least when a policeman in Armagh was shot through the window of his own home because no one had ensured that a simple, effective and not very costly method of protecting him was installed--adequate window glazing to hinder the firing of a gun at him. When I found out that that had not been done, I wrote immediately to the Northern Ireland Office and asked that steps should be taken to examine the safety of RUC members and properly to assess the likelihood, according to the areas in which they live, of their being assassinated. Before anything was done, however, yet another policeman in the same area was shot in exactly the same way.

I do not believe that senior RUC officers are oblivious to the needs of the men whom they command, but it is so difficult to provide protection that at times they adopt a fingers-crossed attitude. The RUC man is the most vulnerable. He has to carry out the ordinary civil duties of a policeman. I hope that this place will recognise his security needs. I do not intend to dwell for too long on the subject ; I recognise the difficulties that the Regular Army faces. It is within the Government's competence to deal with those difficulties. Not least among them is the gross undermanning of Army units for the tasks that they have to carry out close to the frontier.

I have said to the Secretary of State before, and I say to him again, please do not ask the commander on the ground how he is getting on, knowing that the commander believes that he must give an answer of which the Secretary of State will approve. I ask him, please, to go and decide what the task is and then to ask the commander how many men he has to carry out that task. I also ask the Secretary of State to question the commander on how he allocates men to do the job. The Secretary of State and the Minister of State would soon understand the total inadequacy of the manpower in those areas. If I have more sympathy for one security service rather than another, it must be for the Ulster Defence Regiment, not just because I served in the regiment for a considerable

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number of years, but because I find that its members are subjected, even by people who are not pro-IRA, to aggravation, false accusation and allegations that would never stand up in a court of law but which are repeated again and again until they begin to wear the men down. That is what the allegations are intended to do : To undermine the morale of soldiers, particularly the part-time members of the Ulster Defence Regiment.

What are the allegations? They are of the most spurious type : that a member of the UDR has been rude to someone on the road or that a UDR member has been aggressive or threatening on the road. Each allegation has to be, and is, fully investigated. Just imagine what that does to a man who, after doing a day's work, goes out to do eight hours duty with the UDR and who comes in at 4 am to find that perhaps at around midnight someone drove up to the gate of his barracks and put in a complaint which the Special Investigation Branch has been asked to investigate. That man wants to get home and have three or four hours sleep before commencing his next day's work, but he is asked to stay behind because he has to be interrogated by the SIB.

Could it be that after almost 12 years' service in the UDR I am blind to its faults, that I do not know what goes on or, to put it bluntly, that I am prejudiced in how I see the men with whom I served? That can best be illustrated if I say that my battalion, the 8th battalion of the UDR, has had 33 of its members murdered by the IRA. As I look at those 33 names--God knows, that is enough--I see that they must represent a broad cross-section of those who served in the UDR. I ask myself then about people such as George Shaw who took me, as an 11-year-old lad, to my first scout camp. He served the community, and for all his 57 years he was a public-spirited man. I ask myself, too, about Eric Shiells, a business man. He was a person with liberal views who employed people from both sections of the community. I ask about Cormac McCabe, the headmaster of a secondary school, and I ask myself about Albert Cooper, who was referred to earlier today. I taught him at school. Then there is Jimmy Johnston, whom I also taught at school. I ask myself about Denis Wilson. I cast my eye across my constituency and see so many of those faces. I challenge anyone with an iota of honesty to tell me whether any of those 33 people, of whom I have named but a few, was ever known to adopt aggressive behaviour towards any member of the community, Roman Catholic or Protestant. That is how I ask people to judge. They should not do what so many of the UDR's critics do and consider the regiment as uniforms with no faces and no bodies. I challenge members of the Social Democratic and Labour party, members of the Labour party, members of the Roman Catholic Church and members of the Irish Government, who seem all too ready to criticise the UDR first to look at the cases of those who have served and died as they stood between the community and those who would bring it to its knees. Then they should make a judgment.

When does the Secretary of State intend to find a way of calling to account those who make false allegations against members of the security forces? It is right that the public should be protected. I support the protection of the public against anyone who goes to excess, but I expect exactly the same protection to be accorded to people in the security services.

Schedule 2 contains a list of those who are proscribed by the legislation. Recently, there has been a debate in Northern Ireland about whether the Ulster Defence

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Association should be proscribed. I do not give a hoot about any illegal or paramilitary--I suppose that I had better call them that--organisations being proscribed. The Secretary of State may proscribe the UDA tomorrow and I and my colleagues will shed no tears. We do not want to see our Roman Catholic neighbours gunned down any more than we want to see our Protestant constituents bear the onslaught which they have endured for the past 20 years. But those who call for the proscription of the UDA are somewhat hypocritical. This year, there has been an upsurge in the number of killings by loyalist paramilitaries from about 20 per cent. to almost 30 per cent. But why have those people who ask for the proscription of the UDA not considered how 92 per cent. of Protestants killed during the past five years were victims of the IRA and indirectly, or sometimes directly, by its political wing, Sinn Fein? Why do those people not call for the proscription of Sinn Fein?

My party will support the proscription of any organisation on either side of the community that is engaged in violence against the community. We should be fools not to do so. I hope that the Secretary of State or the Minister of State will answer a question. Is the reason why the UDA is not proscribed, that no one is prepared to face up to the need to proscribe Sinn Fein? Many of us fear that that is the case. If it is, the Government's policy is less than honourable. Lord Colville suggested that the power of internment--I am not afraid to call it that, because I know that it is and what I want it to be--should be removed from the legislation. I am glad that the Government did not do so, if only because it would have sent out the wrong signal to the IRA. But I wish that those who talk about internment would begin to ask why we need it and examine its historical background. They should ask what it is. We need it because only 8 to 10 per cent. of IRA terrorists are brought to justice through the courts--I refer to those who commit actual murders. I do not suggest for a moment that bringing 55 or 60 per cent. of loyalist killers to justice is good enough, but there is a difference. That is a reason why we need internment.

Some people make a glib excuse and say, "Look at what happened in 1971. Look how the community was alienated." But in 1971 the community was alienated for other reasons. It felt that it was socially underprivileged and that it had a considerable amount of ground to make up. But surely after 20 years neither the Secretary of State nor anyone else will tell me that a section of the community in Northern Ireland, which lives under exactly the same Government as the rest of the community, administered from Westminster, is still underprivileged or still has the perception--that is an important word to that section of the community--that its people are second-class citizens.

Internment did not work in 1971 because it was used to some extent, if not entirely for political purposes. I forget the exact number, but between 300 and 400 people were hauled in one after another. There was no real basis for selection.

We must remember that internment is not retribution. Retribution is exacted through the judicial procedure and the courts. Internment is a means of detaining those who cannot be brought to justice through the judicial system,

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either because people are not willing to come to court to give evidence or because the security forces need to protect valuable sources of information simply to keep themselves alive. It is, and must be seen only as a means of disrupting the command and control structure of paramilitary organisations.

I challenge people, such as the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), who criticise the legislation to answer a question. What will they do to protect their Protestant constituents and, indeed, the 41 per cent. of victims of violence killed by the IRA who were Roman Catholic? What suggestions do they make? Unless hon. Members have positive and practical suggestions to make about how to deal with terrorism, they have not earned the right to criticise what we endeavour to do this evening.

I challenge not only the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh, but every Member of the SDLP. I challenge the Roman Catholic Church and I do it with respect. I challenge the Irish Republic and I do it with respect, but I ask them, "How long will you maintain your harsh, uncompromising, irredentist attitude to Northern Ireland in terms of articles 2 and 3 of your constitution?" Meantime, the Government must reason out why they have retained internment. I hope that it is not just so that we do not give a wrong signal to the IRA, because, by that very constraint, we give a wrong signal.

Our emergency legislation does not deal effectively with those who choose to use the ballot box and Armalite philosophy. They are those who seek election to our district councils. The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea) and my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs) and I are forced to sit with killers. Recently I was accused of gloating over the shooting of an ex-member of my council, one Martin McCaughey. I do not gloat over the death of anyone. I repudiate the allegation. Because I am concerned for the law-abiding members of my community, I am satisfied when he is brought to justice and prevented from continuing his killings in my constituency.

What are members of district councils who are constitutional politicians and who support law and order to do when we are forced to sit with those who, while they face us across the chamber, conspire to kill us and members of the community whom we represent? The time when Martin McCaughey was shot was an opportune time for the Government to say, "Here we have adequate proof. Now is the moment for selective internment."

I am pleased that the legislation is being strengthened in terms of what can be achieved in closing some frontier crossings. I recall a story told, not by a Unionist, but by an SDLP member of my council when a Sinn Fein member brought a resolution condemning the closure of cross-border roads on the basis that it was a social, economic and political constraint. The SDLP member asked the Sinn Fein councillor whether he had worked that argument out and recalled the day when Tyrone reached the final of the all-Ireland Gaelic football championship. The people from round Dungannon intended to cross from Aughnacloy towards Clones over the Moy bridge. The IRA planted a huge van bomb on the bridge. He asked, "Was that for social or cultural reasons? What about the bomb that was driven into the village of Clogher? A Roman Catholic father of several children was forced to drive a bomb along a twisty, bumpy road while his wife and children were being held at gunpoint. The vehicle was parked outside a draper's shop in the village

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and the Roman Catholic woman who owned the shop and had carried on the business for years was lying on her death bed on the floor above. She had to be brought out on a stretcher. What was that? Was that for social, cultural or economic reasons?" Those are the questions that we must put to the IRA.

I could talk until midnight and beyond on this issue. Many stories must be told in this House so that people begin to face the practical reality of, and not just the philosophical arguments about, terrorism.

I advise the Minister who will reply that what we need is education, not equivocation. For 20 years the IRA and others, wittingly or unwittingly, have been conditioning the community in Northern Ireland to believe certain things that are fundamentally untrue and harmful to that community, not least that if we introduce internment everybody, not would, but should be alienated. I cannot believe that the decent members of the Roman Catholic community whom I know or the decent members of the Protestant community whom I know and who are the vast majority would go to the wire for the sake of one or two people within their immediate community who are holding them to ransom and making them hostages every bit as much as Saddam Hussein is making hostages of the people of Kuwait.

It is time that the Government faced up to their responsibility to condition not only the people of Northern Ireland, but those throughout the United Kingdom and further afield to the reality of the situation. They should not make believe that we are treating everybody with kid gloves. There are people whom we cannot treat with kid gloves. We cannot go on for ever saying, "We shall not do this because we know that you will all come out on to the street", or "Things would get worse if we did this or that." We must think of the 98 per cent. and more of the community who are law- abiding citizens and say to them soon, "We are doing this for your benefit. Understand our reasoning. There will be safeguards. The House of Commons and the courts will safeguard your rights, but you will have to endure some inconvenience for your own benefit and that of your neighbours, Protestant and Roman Catholic, who are being held to ransom." If we can implement this legislation in that spirit, beginning to condition the community now to the inconvenience that it must endure, we shall go a long way towards ending the nightmare to which the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster alluded and which he predicted would not leave us for the next 20 years. Many of us do not have 20 years. Many of us will have less likelihood of seeing 20 years if action is not taken to implement the full rigours of the law and to explain to the community why that must happen.

8.48 pm

Mr. Terry Dicks (Hayes and Harlington) : As my hon. Friend the Member for Boothferry (Mr. Davis) has already said, it is a delicate matter for an English Member to speak on matters concerning Northern Ireland, even though it is part of this country. It is especially difficult after the wonderful and moving speech given by my colleague and friend the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea). How can one follow the drama of that speech and the heartfelt feelings he expressed?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State should be aware that the regulations are not tough enough. I am sure

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that previous Secretaries of State made exactly the same speech, which contained the same good wishes and promises, but we are as badly off now as we ever were. We are not winning the battle against terrorism and to pretend that we are is misleading and a delusion. The people of Britain, especially of Northern Ireland, know that the battle has not been won and that it is getting worse. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) cited figures to prove that.

The security forces are not given sufficient freedom to do what is necessary. They know the identity of some of the villians, the terrorists and their leaders, but they must fight their battle against terrorism with one hand--no, perhaps two--tied behind their backs. Tonight concern has been expressed about a shoot-to-kill policy conducted by the security forces. I hope to God they never have a shoot-to-miss policy. If a shoot-to -kill policy means that IRA terrorists are put away, I have no compunction about lending my support to it.

Clause 32 of the Bill refers to

"any hood, mask or other article used for concealing the identity of features".

No mention is made of the wearing of military uniforms. People cannot understand why we allow the funeral of a murdered IRA terrorist to take place on the streets of Northern Ireland at which other terrorists wear uniform and fire a salute. As we watch that on English television we ask ourselves what the hell is going on. Those people are terrorists and murderers, but my Government sit back and allow them to have their funerals.

Why are the Government so proud of a policy that allows long-serving IRA terrorists to have Christmas at home with their families? The Minister will have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster about the suffering of widows and children and those maimed by that dirty, filthy war. However, Ministers proudly sit on the Front Bench and boast about how they allow such terrorists to go home to spend Christmas with their families. What a disgusting and disgraceful situation.

I was appalled that, when a terrorist recently died, his brother was allowed compassionate leave to attend his funeral. What sort of compassion is it when my Government allow a convicted terrorist to weep for his brother who was killed by the security forces for being a terrorist? What sort of society do we have that allows that? We must have emergency regulations, but the ones before us are not strong enough. But consider the policies of the Labour party. I cannot believe what it says. All it is concerned about is the rights of people. Let us consider the Labour party amendment. It condemns the Bill for

"refusing to remove internment without trial from the Statute Book and failing to introduce the video-taping of interviews with terrorist suspects".

It also calls for

"the certifying in' of scheduled offences an ombudsman to consider the operation of complaints and a statutory duty for the Commission of Human Rights to supervise the operation of the statute".

What does the Labour party think is going on in Northern Ireland--Butlin's holiday camp, a tea party or a dance at the Ritz on a Saturday afternoon? I did not hear the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) mention responsibilities once ; he just spoke about the rights of this, that and the other. Does he not realise that rights and responsibilities represent two sides of one coin? One cannot talk about the rights of a terrorist or a potential terrorist without that terrorist accepting

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responsibility for the society in which he lives. Opposition Members have expressed their concern about those in prison, but those prisoners gave up the right for any consideration the minute they refused to accept their responsibility to act in a decent and humane fashion on the streets of Northern Ireland.

The Labour party has also called for an inquiry into the wonderful job the SAS did in Gibraltar and for an inquiry about the young lads who pinched a car and tried to get through a police road block. If someone gets into a car for a joyride in Northern Ireland and does not stop at a police block, he should expect, and should get, exactly what is coming to him.

Mr. Harry Barnes rose --

Mr. Dicks : I am sorry, but time is short and I will not give way. Other Labour Members have written a letter to The Cork Examiner. Their message to the southern Irish Government was clear--do not send anybody back here because they will not get a fair trial. That is the policy followed by the real Labour party.

In the past four years the Labour party has stood on its head about virtually every policy, but it has remained consistent in voting against the regulations. If I have not said enough about the present Labour party, let me tell the House about the type of person it has selected to fight me for Hayes and Harlington at the next election. That man, when he had a seat of power at the Greater London council, invited Sinn Fein and IRA members to visit at ratepayers' expense. He invited them over to talk about their problems--no doubt it had something to do with the troops out movement and all the rest of it. The Labour party has allowed its local constituency party to select such a person to fight the next election, but the Opposition spokesmen claim that they abhor terrorism and are opposed to it. I wish that their mealy-mouthed words could be heard by more people, as they represent their two-faced hypocrisy.

What action should be taken to get things right? We must consider the regulations in their proper context. My Government should tell the southern Irish Government to remove from their constitution articles 2 and 3, which threaten to take over the six counties in due course. If the Government believe that we should take tough action, they should tell those terrorist lovers in the south to get rid of those articles from the constitution to show that they mean business.

What about the wonderful Anglo-Irish Agreement which I voted against five years ago? We were told that that would provide all the answers to the problems of Northern Ireland, but, as the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone has already said, acts of terrorism have increased since its introduction. It is a disgusting agreement and a sop to southern Ireland. It has not improved the situation in Northern Ireland and it is a disgrace to this country and my Government. Before we talk about further regulations we should take real action by getting rid of articles 2 and 3 in the Irish constitution as well as the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

The situation in Northern Ireland is one of war. It is not an issue about rights and wrongs or playing fair. The terrorists' basic rule is that we should play ball with them,

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but they will stick the bat up our rear end. It is about time we told the IRA that this is a battle. The IRA calls itself an army. We need not recognise that, but we should say that we will take it on wherever we must. If that means that we and our security forces must get down in the gutter with them to win, so help us, we will. To sit here and say that we are doing our best when, in a few days, we shall hear about more innocent people being killed and more terrorists getting away with it is unbelievable. What with that and people being put up overnight at a cost of £3,000 and terrorist prisoners going home for Christmas, the British people cannot believe it. The sorrowful thing for me is that I had to sit here to listen to such a moving speech from my friend the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster. If nothing else happens, I hope that hon. Members were moved by that speech and that the Secretary of State will have second thoughts about what needs to be done about Northern Ireland. We must take tough measures and we must beat terrorism ; lovely platitudes expressed in the Chamber will be no help at all.

8.57 pm

Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) : I am surprised that hon. Members think that we are legislating for terrorists. We are not. We are legislating for the entire people of Northern Ireland, which is an important difference. The Bill will apply not only to the terrorists of Northern Ireland, but to every citizen, good bad or indifferent. For that reason, we must be careful, when withdrawing a right or imposing a burden or liability on a person, to ensure that that person has the full protection of the law.

I wish to address the Bill in its broadest sense. Each year we have a debate similar to this, whether it concerns the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 or the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act. Each time, another chunk is bitten out of the normal rule of law. Let us be clear : we are referring not to the normal rule of law, but to its withdrawal. As was pointed out earlier, it is important that when that happens there is full justification for every item that withdraws that rule of law.

For instance, earlier it was said that capital punishment would be a deterrent. The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea) referred to the Ellis case and the ending of a hunger strike. However, he seems to have quickly forgotten a lesson. The Provisional IRA encouraged and deliberately let die eight of its own members, one after another, in a protracted public -relations exercise of the most horrible kind. That is not fear of the final punishment, but a use, or abuse, of it. That is why I do not think that capital punishment should be a consideration ; but, although it is not included in the debate tonight, it leads me to my next point.

We reach a stage at which the withdrawal of the normal rights of the rule of law becomes an oppression in itself. I do not know where the dividing line is ; I am not a lawyer, only an observer. In support of my case, I do not propose to draw on the deaths of members of the police, members of the UDR and innocent people from both sides of the community in my constituency. I do not wish to base my arguments on them, but propose to state my view on the basis of my own experiences and observations.

I was challenged fairly directly by the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis), who said that he could not understand my misgivings about, for instance, the UDR. He himself said that, if the UDR did

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not exist, he and his fellows would have to create such a force for the Protestant people. I could refer to an example from my constituency, where a person was murdered by two serving members of the UDR and somone who had just ceased to be a member. But that is not the point : the point is that there is an element of distrust, which is endemic and must be addressed. We cannot wish it away. That instance--along with several others--is an indication of the problem.

Mr. Maginnis : I know that I spoke for a long time, and I do not want to take up the hon. Gentleman's time, but I must correct him. I never suggested that, if we did not have an Ulster Defence Regiment, we would need a Protestant force to protect us. I said that, if we did not have properly constituted forces of law and order to stand between us and the terrorist, the community would have a responsibility to protect itself. I stand by that.

Mr. McGrady : I stand by what I originally said, as it is on the public record.

The more that rights are withdrawn, the more it is seen as oppression, and the more credibility is given to the terrorists' arguments and to those whom we are all trying to defeat. In his introductory remarks, the Secretary of State said that there was nothing startlingly new in the Bill. If I may use my own words, it is more or less a regurgitation of what has gone before. That is not true. There are new and troubling restrictions of individual rights, and also some important omissions that could be corrected to make the package more viable and cohesive.

The proposal that will probably give the most trouble is the possibility that otherwise innocent articles in a person's possession may, merely on the suspicion of an investigative officer or Army personnel, be deemed to be a contribution to an intended act of terrorism. That, without any collaborating evidence, would constitute a grave abuse or crime warranting a severe sentence. That is one of the most alarming parts of the Bill, and the Government must take a close look at its practical implications.

I shall draw attention to only one or two of the missed opportunities, but certainly not to the suggestion that we should introduce phone tapping because there is quite a bit of that in Northern Ireland at present. A matter of grave concern to most people is the absence of the right to silence. The Secretary of State's arguments about non-intention were weak and apologetic when he said that taped video recordings of interviews and interrogations could not and would not be made available.

It is evident that in many disputed sectors of the application of law, based as they often are on confession and statements made without a great deal of, and sometimes no, collaborating evidence, it would be absolutely invaluable in upholding the law and ensuring that it was just that video tape recordings should be made available. It is no argument to say that such recordings would expose the interrogating officers or personnel to threats to their lives or intimidation. As has been said, modern technology allows the appearances of such people on television to be blurred.

The Bill includes a section on searching and finding written matter that may be deemed to be of some use to terrorists. The subject is far reaching and I ask the Minister of State and the Government to take a close look at it. It reminds me of the broadcasting ban in a different guise. I argued against that strongly at the time and it has since

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