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liberties. I am one of the few Conservative Members to be an acknowledged supporter of the National Council for Civil Liberties. As the Conservative chairman of the Campaign for Freedom of Information, I first met my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary seven and a half years ago when we argued about the merits or demerits of the Data Protection Act 1984. We clashed on a number of occasions--to my personal cost ever since. With such credentials, spurious or otherwise, I see not one whit of evidence to suggest that electronic tagging and curfew orders in any sense infringe on civil liberties. I intervened earlier to cite the clear statement in paragraph 4.22 of the White Paper which states that it is only appropriate to use such a disposal when restrictions on liberty are justified by the offence. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State would be the first to agree that it is vital that that precondition is attendant on every use of the curfew order. It should be an occasion on which some restriction on liberty is justified by the nature of the offence.Mr. John Patten : I hope that the House is listening with great care to my hon. Friend. Among hon. Members on both sides of the House, my hon. Friend, above all people, has a considerable reputation as someone who believes in civil liberties. Did my hon. Friend spot the muddle that became apparent as Opposition Members contributed to the debate? It appears that they believe that electronic monitoring is a punishment. But the sentence of the court is the punishment. Electronic monitoring is a way to ensure, with deadly and complete accuracy, whether the punishment is adhered to. It is not a punishment in itself.
Mr. Norris : My right hon. Friend is right. Curfew orders and the attendant electronic tagging would be one of a creative menu of disposals which would follow a conviction for an offence. It is spurious to believe that that would have a peculiar impact on individual civil liberties--an impact which, apparently, a sentence of imprisonment does not have. That is ludicrous nonsense and, in all honesty, I do not believe that it is intellectually sustainable.
Mr. Sheerman : I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman. In many respects, a number of us admire some of the things he does, especially in the work of Crime Concern. The hon. Gentleman must be aware, however, that, within the range of informed opinion, that organisation stands alone in favour of electronic tagging. All other reputable groups are against it.
Crime Concern does a lot of good work in social crime prevention and the hon. Gentleman knows that if one is to understand such crime prevention one must understand the nature of the offender's family. One of the reasons why we oppose tagging is that it is a sentence on the family, not the individual. If one considers individual rights to include the rights of family members, one must accept that tagging will--
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. This should be an intervention, not a speech.
Mr. Norris : Subject to your strictures, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks about Crime Concern. I have been asked by the director of Crime Concern to make it absolutely clear that, on this matter, I speak for myself. I am not speaking for the board of Crime Concern, which includes the hon. Gentleman's colleague, the hon. Member for Leicester,
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East (Mr. Vaz), or for the directorate of that splendid organisation with which I am privileged to continue my association. I hope to refer to other aspects of social crime prevention later, but I would be as opposed as the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) to electronic monitoring and curfew orders if I did not see them as an alternative to custody. In particular, I believe that any prospect of allowing people to live in their own home is infinitely preferable to the often inadequate conditions for remand persons in prison. Those conditions are acknowledged to be among the worst in our system, rather than the best. I believe that it is an immense advantage to allow people to be remanded to their homes.One is being short-sighted if one does not appreciate that there can be alternatives to either liberty or custody that allow us to deal with those persons for whom a restriction of liberty is an appropriate disposition which prevents them from joining the university of crime. In talking about social crime prevention the one thing that one must recognise about prison is that when young people go to prison for the first time they are taught how to avoid coming back a second time. They are not taught that that is achieved by not re-offending ; rather, they are taught to be a little bit cleverer the next time. That university of crime impact is immensely damaging to our social fabric, and anything we can do in different ways to deal with people who would otherwise have their freedom restricted is desirable.
One must add a rider to such statements. Much has been made of the technical efficiency or otherwise of the tags that we employ at present. I spent some time in the United States examining the issue of tagging, and I heard no complaint about the technical quality of the equipment. So it is probable that we shall be able to develop equipment which is serviceable and capable of withstanding, so to speak, a little damage.
Mr. John Patten : My hon. Friend should go to the Whips' Office.
Mr. Norris : I am told that the Whips' Office has 372 versions on order, perhaps in the light of developments this evening. I assure the hon. Member for Huddersfield that I would not approve of the wholesale use of this type of apparatus until it had been well tried and tested. But it is feeble to argue against the technology because there may have been a few technical failures in the first batch. While we must get the technology right, it is generally agreed that not the technology but the principle behind it is vital. The question is whether it is an appropriate instrument to use, and, having listened with interest to the remarks of the hon. Member for Huddersfield, I believe that it is a useful piece of apparatus, particularly for first-time and young offenders.
Mr. Sheerman : Unlike most interventions from Conservative Members, this will be a short one. Is the hon. Gentleman happy that children will be tagged and have to go to school wearing such obvious devices?
Mr. Norris : I am happy to rely on the section in the White Paper dealing with whether restrictions are justified, which is the important precondition. I am not sure that a schoolchild would be the subject of a monitoring device. But if the court decided that that was the desirable course,
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if restrictions on an individual's liberty are justified, most people would prefer electronic monitoring to remand in custody or a period of imprisonment. I do not see anything exceptional about that. In the spirit of trying to keep youngsters, in particular, out of prison, alternatives to custody are greatly to be welcomed. We kid ourselves if we do not recognise that there will be difficulties in implementing alternatives to custody. As the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook said, there is in the probation service a culture that is particularly appropriate to probation. Although probation officers are to be invited to be part of alternative community-based sentencing, I am not sure that that is an appropriate way to use the probation service.Probation officers have a special and separate role which should be respected. The cultural divide between that role and the necessary regimes for some community-based alternatives to prison would be too great for them to jump. Equally, I do not relish the idea of members of the Prison Officers Association staffing the new schemes. In the end, we shall probably have to create a separate, third force, perhaps formed of ex- service personnel and others who understand the discipline necessary to handle these issues. Not only will such people appreciate the need to make the new schemes truly effective, but the public will know that they are not providing a soft option. That new force will act in a sphere between the probation service and the Prison Officers Association.
Community acceptance is the vital concept. Up to now, too many magistrates, particularly lay magistrates, have refused to use community service orders because, to borrow a phrase from the Secretary of State, they have been seen as a slap on the wrist. The result is that such orders have never achieved the value that should have been attributed to them.
While all the new moves, not forgetting the proposals on parental responsibility, are to be welcomed, the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) spoke about the crucial part of the Bill and, to some extent, its crucial weakness, and the statistics sum it up. During 1990 about 20 million offences will be committed in Britain. About a fifth of those--over 4 million--will be recorded by the police. The other 16 million will not be recorded by them. About 95 per cent. of those crimes will concern property and over half of them will be committed by young men aged 21 or younger. A larger number of them will be opportunistic crimes and be highly preventable. A third of all those convicted of criminal offences will be aged under 17. The peak age of offending, particularly if we strip out the impact of young people being cautioned, is still about 15 for both sexes. The average age of burglars is nearer 15 than 20 and the offences are usually committed within a mile or so of their homes. Over a quarter of all auto crime is committed by youngsters in the 10 to 16 age range. In urban areas, one young man in three has come in contact with the police on a criminal matter before reaching his 17th birthday.
Everything in the Bill, welcome though it is, will not avoid that situation continuing. It will help, but we have a long way to go yet and the path ahead is clear. The hon. Member for Huddersfield referred to the work of Crime Concern. I pay tribute to the Home Secretary, to the Minister of State and to the present Foreign Secretary for
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their unswerving support for that splendid organisation, which I am proud to chair but take none of the operational credit for. That work is due entirely to Nigel Whiskin and John Bright and the splendid team at Swindon.They have developed some splendid ways of dealing with youngsters, preferably before they become criminals. The team has pointed the direction in which local authorities, police forces and voluntary bodies throughout the country can come to terms with crime in their communities. Only by dealing with these issues at the community level shall we come to terms with the problems of criminality in society. At present, we rely on considerable funding from the private sector to accompany the more than generous grant from the Home Office. But it is generous only in the context of the work that we have done in recent years. Considering the cost of keeping people in custody--never less than £12,000 a year in any regime, however lenient, and up to £30,000 for offenders in close custody--all economic sense points to making a huge investment in youngsters at an early age.
We have an opportunity to break through the vicious cycle of criminality that begins virtually at birth and ends when the person concerned becomes a parent. To know where a 15-year-old develops the attitudes that cause him to become an offender, we must examine his environment, even before he can look over the dining room table. We are speaking of attitudes learnt at home, in school and while at play on street corners. The issue of how well they play, how constructively they employ their time and how they are kept from getting into trouble and becoming another statistic in the criminal justice system is absolutely vital.
In a splendid speech to the Conservative conference at Blackpool a couple of years ago, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary drew a vivid analogy involving the tree that grows straight and the tree that grows crookedly. He said that the determining factor in whether the tree grew straight or crooked was how it was treated when it was a sapling. That analogy is as true now as it ever was. If we do not recognise that we must bridge resources from dealing with conviction and expensive disposal and start putting more of them into prevention, particularly youth prevention, all the evidence in the world shows that we shall not crack the problem.
Mr. Beggs : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if we were to include the statistics of stolen cars and thefts from vehicles in Northern Ireland, the figure would be well over 1 million? Does he agree that whichever Government are in power, they must continually press motor manufacturers to ensure that, as far as possible, there is greater security in all motor vehicles?
Mr. Norris : The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to draw attention to the problem of vehicle theft in Northern Ireland and the rest of the country. One point I never cease to make is that if we look at tables of crime and consider how we compare internationally, we see that Great Britain, particularly England and Wales, is virtually bottom of every league of crime. That is something about which we should say a great deal more. Unfortunately, the fear of crime in our society is greater than the incidence of crime merits. Hon. Members on both sides of the House should be responsible enough to promote that fact as much as possible. As the hon. Gentleman will know, the irony is that auto crime breaks all those rules and is
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probably higher in Britain than in any other country except the United States. The auto industry must do something about that. I have talked about Government involvement in funding youth crime prevention, but I also mentioned that my organisation receives a great deal of support from private enterprise. As corporate citizens, private enterprise can do a great deal to help prevent opportunistic crime. Some 90 per cent. of auto crime is purely opportunistic. Until now, security has not been a selling feature. It has been better to put go-faster stripes on the side of a car than to make sure that the car is fitted with proper locks. It is incredible that it is still derisorily easy to open a modern car and take it away. Perhaps there is more evidence of felonious intent thereafter in Northern Ireland than on the mainland of Britain, but in each country such theft often results in considerable damage and cost to the victim of that crime.Mr. John Patten : I thank my hon. Friend for giving way to me a second time.
Does he agree that, notwithstanding the important points made by the hon. Member for Antrim, East (Mr. Beggs), in general terms, crime rates in Northern Ireland are considerably lower than those on the mainland when we set aside dreadful terrorist events? We should pay tribute to the population of the Province for what they have done to contribute to that and for the way in which they bring up their young people.
Mr. Norris : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for reminding the House of that. It is important to bear in mind that England and Wales are virtually bottom of all crime leagues and Scotland, identified separately, is at about the same level--occasionally below and occasionally above England and Wales. In Northern Ireland the position is much more complicated by the incidence of terrorist crime. In general, my right hon. Friend's observations are entirely correct. We must continue to reassure every section of the community. The constituents of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook include elderly people who are made prisoners in their own homes entirely because of a fear of crime that is not justified by the crime rate around them. They are 14 times more likely to be the victims of road accidents than of muggings in any city centre in England and Wales. I shall return to what was to have been the most platitudinous peroration on record in the House--
Mr. Barry Sheerman : Not by a long chalk ; wait until 9.50 pm.
Mr. Norris : Perhaps it is not the most platitudinous. I, too, have listened to the odd speech of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. We need constantly to remind ourselves that expense on detection, conviction and disposal is an admission of failure to have made enough young trees grow straight, of parental control, influence at school and social influence in the community on a young person's life. We can no longer continue to accept that failure. We must start doing something about it and the key to that is to invest more, both from the private sector and, at the risk of incurring the wrath of my right hon. Friend the Minister, the public sector. We must invest in youth crime prevention that is designed to reach the heart of criminality.
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With that reservation, I extend a warm welcome to the Bill, which seems to have begun a trend in the creative management of criminality that has not been seen for many years. It is a considerable piece of work and I shall look forward to considering it in further detail during its passage through the House.7.15 pm
Mrs. Llin Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme) : The Bill raises many issues, and I intend tonight to deal only with that section involving children's evidence.
While the law refuses to listen to the evidence of children in our courts, there can be no real justice in this country. Many Members of this House and of the other place, strongly supported by many organisations and individuals, have argued and battled to enable children's voices to be heard in our legal system. In the past three years great strides have been made that have been described as revolutionary in evidence law--not before time.
The Criminal Justice Act 1988 changed the law to introduce the system of video links so that children no longer had to appear in court in the presence of the person they were accusing, but could be cross-examined in another room, linked by a video camera. The Act also contains important changes in the law of corroboration in children's unsworn evidence that recognise that, by its very nature, child sex abuse takes place mainly on a one-to-one basis, most often out of sight of another adult.
I welcome the proposal in clause 42 which is designed to abolish the competency requirement as it now exists. That will mean that children will be allowed to give unsworn evidence. However, I reserve judgment on the wording of the clause until I hear the Minister's explanation of
"the power of the court in any criminal proceedings to determine that a particular person is not competent to give evidence shall apply to children of tender years as it applies to other persons." I am not certain that it has been recognised that children are different from adults and do not have the same capacity to understand words such as "duty to speak the truth." I certainly believe that all children should be listened to, regardless of their age or maturity. Clause 43 allows the Director of Public Prosecutions to transfer cases, where sufficient evidence exists, directly to the Crown court rather than going through a magistrates court in the first instance, which is to be welcomed in principle. It would certainly reduce the time that cases take to come to court.
Clause 45 will prevent the person accused of child abuse from personally cross-examining the child, which must surely be welcomed by everyone. Clause 44 allows a video recording of an interview with the child to be given in evidence, subject to the court's power to exclude evidence that is inadmissible or, in the interest of justice, should be excluded. All that is good news, for it should make it easier to convict child molesters and, as has been proved elsewhere, it could lead to the accused person confessing after seeing the tape of the child's evidence. The tape will also mean that the child will not have to go through the trauma of retelling the story of the alleged abuse, often months after the initial interview.
The Bill, however, seems to suggest that video recordings can be available as evidence only if the child is available for cross-examination in court.
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When other hon. Members and I first submitted amendments to change the law on the giving of evidence by children, during proceedings on the Criminal Justice Bills of 1987 and 1988, I was prepared to concede that in the interests of justice to the accused this was perhaps the only answer. I no longer think that it is. In 1988 the Home Secretary established an advisory group to consider the use of video evidence. It was chaired by Judge Thomas Pigot, and it reported in December 1989.The report concluded that very young children ought never to be required to appear in public as witnesses in the Crown court. To overcome that, the report promised that once the prosecution was allowed to produce a video recording as evidence it should be allowed as of right to apply for the child witness to be examined and cross-examined at an out-of-court hearing which would itself be video recorded and later shown to the trial judge. I strongly support that suggestion. I understand that a similar procedure is widely used in America, where not only the video recording but also a transcript of the recording is presented to the jury. That seems very sensible. Although I welcome the progress made in this Bill, I, together with many other people, much regret the fact that the Government have not seen fit to implement in full the Pigot report, for the reforms that it contained provided up-to-date justice in our courts. But there will be other days and other Criminal Justice Bills, and we will not go away until we are satisfied that children, regardless of their age, receive justice in our courts.
7.21 pm
Mrs. Ann Winterton (Congleton) : I welcome the opportunity to speak briefly, in the sure and certain knowledge that the increase in crime is causing grave concern to my constituents and other people in this country. The Bill introduces a new and more suitable framework for dealing with offenders in the light of that concern. The maintenance of law and order and respect for the law of the land are part of my political philosophy, and they are given high priority in the policies of the Government.
The growth in crime rates is not restricted to Britain ; I am aware that the same problems exist world wide. We have one of the lowest overall crime rates, and the lowest incidence of violent crime in western Europe. Our society is generally much less violent than those of north America and Australia. But knowledge of those facts is no consolation to the elderly pensioner who dare not venture out of his or her house after dark ; or to the parents of young children who fear for their safety on the way to or from school, or to and from other activities ; or to those whose homes have been broken into and whose personal possessions have been removed--some of them irreplaceable because of their sentimental value.
We are all much more aware of the incidence of crime because of instant communications in the media. Watching the distressed mother of an abducted child appealing for its return on television makes a much greater impression than reading about the event in the newspapers the following day.
What are the causes of the increased level of crime? The psychologists tell us that poverty causes crime, yet today
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we enjoy a standard of living higher than ever before in our history. We are told that lack of education causes crime, yet our education system has never been so open or funded so generously. Opposition Members may disagree, but when the Labour party was in office it could not fund these services to the degree that they are funded today.Mr. Stuart Randall (Kingston upon Hull, West) : I am sure that the hon. Lady appreciates that the gap between the rich and the poor has steadily widened under this Government and that that is a major factor which has contributed to the present high crime rates.
Mrs. Winterton : I hear the hon. Gentleman's point, but the social security system is working much better. The hon. Gentleman may have meant his point genuinely but I hope to show other areas in which society has gone wrong and failed our young people. I shall, for instance, point to the statistics given by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris), who spoke about the crimes committed by young people.
Crime is caused by several factors deeply rooted in our society. First, it is caused by simple greed. It is also caused by a lack of discipline and of self-discipline and exacerbated by the breakdown of the traditional family unit. That breakdown has been encouraged by liberal elements to the detriment of society, and by the fact that the difference between right and wrong is not inculcated in our children at home or at school to the same extent that it once was. The churches have contributed to that glaring omission because they have failed to promote and provide a strong moral lead for the nation.
Crime prevention has been successfully tackled and promoted by the Government. In my constituency as elsewhere the neighbourhood watch schemes have been a great success. However, people must not relax ; they must be eternally vigilant about reporting suspicious behaviour to the police.
There are more police now and they are better paid and better served, but even so more are needed to present a higher profile in public places, reassuring the public of their presence. Moves have been made to release police from administrative and desk duties by substituting them in those tasks by others. That has resulted in more police being available for duties more commensurate with their skills and training. That, too, is to be welcomed.
Several clauses deal with major criticisms from the public, who want the sentencing of offenders to reflect the seriousness of their crimes. They want violent and sexual offenders to have their past records taken into consideration when they are sentenced. They want such offenders to serve their sentences. In the past, when criminals have been let loose on an unsuspecting public far too early--in some cases they have re-offended with tragic results--it has made a mockery of our criminal justice system.
I welcome the moves to differentiate more distinctly between crimes against the person and those against property. We do not want our prisons cluttered with offenders on whom more suitable sentences could be imposed. It is vital that community orders, probation and curfew orders be seen not to be the soft option : they must be rigorously enforced. If any punishment is to succeed in its purpose, it must make the offender deeply regret the crime committed, and that process must take place before any rehabilitation can be instigated.
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I welcome the prison building programme, but I fear, from what I have seen on television about the insides of our new prisons, that life inside may well be too cushy. I have never believed in degrading members of the human race by overcrowding and by the insanitary conditions endured in our older prisons, but nor do I consider that prisoners should exist under anything but the most rigorous regime. I welcome the provisions to make parents more responsible for their children, and I hope that other Government Departments will follow suit in their policies on this matter. I think particularly of the Department of Health, which has in the past undermined parental responsibility for under-age girls who may be the victims of illegal sexual activity. Either parents are responsible for their children or they are not. The Government cannot have it both ways. If parents are unwilling or unable to exercise authority over their children--that happens--others must be brought in to do just that.Parents will respond positively to the Bill's provisions. Cruelty, neglect and violence to children, including sexual offences, must be considered to be among the most serious of all. Video evidence is vital if there is to be any conviction for crimes against small children. The sooner the child can have its reactions recorded the better. The sooner the case can be brought before the courts the better. The child cannot begin to rebuild its life and security until those traumas are over. The Bill's provisions will assist considerably in convicting those guilty of such horrific crimes as the sexual abuse of children, with the addition of the appropriate safeguards mentioned by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence).
There are some omissions from the Bill. Some crimes are so horrendous that civilised society has to to take what might be considered by some to be uncivilised action. The option of imposing the death penalty should be restored to the courts. In every vote on the subject since I was elected in 1983, I have voted in favour of the ultimate deterrent. I have not changed my mind. If there is an opportunity to do so, I shall remain consistent on that vital issue. My view is shared by millions of law-abiding citizens.
7.31 pm
Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) : I do not agree with the remarks of the hon. Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton) at the end of her speech. I invite her, the Home Secretary and the House to look at what works when we try to find solutions to crime. I have some knowledge and experience of certain matters covered by the Bill. I refer in particular to my experience with young people. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), I welcome the fact that there are positive elements in the Bill that will command the support of all parts of the House. We all want sentencing to be effective. We want to prevent crime. We want the courts to operate more effectively. What, however, do those words mean? The Government still have not grasped the ancient wisdom contained in such ancient saws as
"Prevention is better than cure",
or
"The devil makes work for idle hands",
or
"Don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar".
The Home Secretary asked me earlier about the kind of world that I live in which has led me to my conclusions
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about the crime problem. For two decades I worked with juvenile offenders. I have worked among inner-city communities that have experienced the worst effects of crime. I was chairman of the juvenile bench in Cardiff. It is one of the largest juvenile benches in the country. For many years I was a member of a probation committee. I was the first chairman of the Wales intermediate treatment forum, which sought to bring together police, magistrates, social workers, schools, youth workers and others to tackle the problems that the Bill is meant to address. I lived in a world where the lives of young people were ruined because of their involvement in crime.What sort of world, I wonder, does the Home Secretary live in? He made me wonder about that when he spoke earlier this evening. To judge by "Dod's Parliamentary Companion", it seems to be a world limited to court experience. What happens in court is important for the prevention of crime, but it is important only if it is relevant and addresses experience in the outside world. It is important only if it works when seeking to deal with crime prevention and crime punishment. Experience teaches us that legislation is not enough. The court system in this country does not need a quick fix. Prevention is not a cheap option. Commitment and care are needed. In making those comments, I echo some of the points made by the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris). The Government must provide the resources and encourage a partnership approach if crime prevention and crime are to be tackled properly.
When I asked the Home Secretary about prevention, he prayed in aid his support of the expansion of neighbourhood watch schemes. That is a sensible response to a problem in a local community, but it is no substitute for proper, well-structured and targeted work in a community, or for the lack of a police presence. The Home Secretary said that police numbers had increased, but the police are frustrated by the increased amount of paperwork and by not having the resources to do the job. The Home Secretary will be responsible for undermining police morale even further if he ignores that fact. He appeared to ignore it when he spoke earlier.
I agree with recent remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook. He said that crime prevention does not strictly fall within the definition of criminal justice matters. That is a major problem. It could, and it should. My right hon. Friend said : "in the minds of the general public, as in my own mind, we cannot divorce the way in which offenders are caught, treated and punished from the need to reduce the level of crime itself."
He commented on the crime epidemic that we are experiencing, but I agree with the hon. Member for Epping Forest who suggested that we should not overstate it. It is a comparative epidemic. I agree with his statistics.
The Home Secretary referred to chapter 9 of the White Paper on resources and costs. It does not refer, however, to prevention. Reference is made to resources to expand community penalties, but community penalties are under- resourced. Reference is made to £15,800 a year to keep an offender in custody, to the fact that the successful completion of 100 hours of community service costs less than £450 for each offender and to the fact that supervision under a probation order costs about £1,000 a year for each offender. The White Paper continues :
"the more intensive the supervision, the greater the cost." That is right, but the greater the cost, as long as the money is well used, the greater the effectiveness. The less
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intensively that it is used the more likely is it that the community-based option will fail. Failure is inordinately expensive. The price of failure is the committal of further crimes and additional problems and burdens for our communities.The Bill refers to additional resources for social inquiry reports. The cost is estimated at £2.5 million for the 11,250 reports that will have to be made. A request has been made for more information about the figures. We want to be sure that they have not been plucked out of the air.
A social inquiry report goes nowhere on its own. It must have a purpose and a target and must be made in the context of a court where creative actions are taken, particularly when young people come before it. The court atmosphere can be constructive. I know from my own experience that sentencing can be the result of a team approach when it is targeted at what will work for young people, thus avoiding the burden of additional crime as young people are tempted into further criminality. That does not necessarily happen. The Government are responsible for providing the resources and creating the context within which court experience can be positive, and not another negative experience for young people which is more likely to lead to an acceleration of their criminal careers.
The Bill ought to address probation, sentencing, punishment, the protection of the public and the diversion of young people from committing crimes. The Bill does not reflect any Government enthusiasm to make community-based options work effectively for the benefit of society as a whole. It contains references to curfew orders. Superficially, that is an attractive option. I can think of cases where curfew orders could be useful and effective, but most probation officers and others who work in the community with offenders regard measures such as curfew orders and electronic monitoring as misguided and unproductive. They believe that constructive measures are far more likely to divert offenders from committing further crimes. We ought to concentrate on measures that work, instead of getting hung up on electronic tagging. It is interesting to note that the courts appear to agree.
Curfew requirements have been available for juvenile offenders since 1983, but are hardly ever used. They are used only by the more creative sentencers in most particular circumstances. I hope that the Minister will ask why that is so. If we are to have this order, let us look at the expectations and the practice to be followed in its use. It appears that these are ideas devised by Ministers and lawyers. Such ideas do not necessarily work. They can play up to popular prejudice, but, in relation to juvenile crime in our society now, we need solutions that work. Above all, we need team work. There is mutual frustration among the police, magistrates, social workers, probation officers and others at working in a system which is so fragmented and which ultimately does not work. It needs the weight and authority of the Home Secretary and the Government to make a team approach work.
I was involved about 15 years ago in a project in South Glamorgan entitled "Working together for children and their families". The lessons learnt from that project are as valid today as they ever were. One thing that has not been done successfully is to create in each of our big towns and cities, particularly, the sort of teamwork necessary to
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combat crime. That will not be achieved simply by legislation. It must be achieved by placing resources in the right places. I agree with the hon. Member for Epping Forest about the value of diverting young people away from ascending the ladder of crime into the universities of crime. In recent years, the most successful approaches to reducing juvenile crime have been constructive supervised activity schemes. Such schemes work to steer delinquents away from crime and--this is important in relation to the comments of the hon. Member for Congleton--to involve parents in taking more responsibility for their children's behaviour. It is not enough to say in law that parents should take responsibility for their children's behaviour. It is not enough to put it in an Act or for the Home Secretary to tell parents what to do. The atmosphere must be created in which parents are persuaded and enabled to take greater responsibility for their children. That approach has proved to be much more effective than punitive measures. We should concentrate on promoting positive approaches to working with delinquents and reinforcing parental responsibility, rather than relying on punitive measures which are fraught with problems and are likely to be counter-productive. I regret that the Government's approach smacks of the Prime Minister's approach, which is to tell everybody, whatever their professional knowledge and experience, how things should work, rather than recognising the reality of what happens in our community.Resources must be used in that direction and I plead with the Government and Conservative Members to persuade the Home Secretary to do just that. There is a need for the resources referred to in the White Paper not just for probation but for several related agencies, because criminal justice is not an isolated activity. It takes place not on an island but in the society in which people live. The courts must relate to that society if they are to work effectively. For instance, there is an inverse correlation between the provision of youth service in a community and the amount of criminal activity. Therefore, it is sensible to ensure that our communities have good youth work provision. That is part of creating a healthy society and a healthy society is one in which crime is discouraged by the context in which people live.
Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South) : Does my hon. Friend agree that early identification of potential offenders is equally important because in that way help can be provided at an early stage?
Mr. Michael : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pinpointing precisely the point I wanted Ministers to hear today.
I worked in an inter-agency team in Cardiff for a number of years. We succeeded in identifying and working with youngsters before they got into trouble. We received a great deal of praise for our efforts. The annual report of the probation committee referred to the reduction in crime in that area. What happened? In the following year, probation resources were withdrawn because there were not as many young people offending. We had succeeded in doing what my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham) suggested. We identified potential offenders at an early stage and provided positive alternatives in the community to divert them from ever needing to become involved in the criminal system. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South is right and
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I hope that Ministers will take that point on board. The probation service had to withdraw resources because fewer people were coming to court and the figures did not meet the requirements of the Government through the Home Office.The Government now say that there are sufficient probation officers. That is in theory only. The Home Secretary said that sufficient support and the necessary resources will be provided to back up the Bill. The White Paper identified certain resources but did nothing to address the gaps in provision to which I and my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South have referred. If the Home Secretary wants to provide the resources, for God's sake, let us ask him not to take an accountant's estimate or statistician's figure but to look at creative initiatives that have worked in the community and listen to those who have tried to make them work and take their advice on the resources and continuity required.
The Children Act 1989 referred to delay and pointed out that delay is prejudicial to the interests of a child. Will the Government take that on board in relation to young offenders? Anybody who has sat in a juvenile court for a considerable time will have seen a youngster who, when asked, "Did you plead guilty or not guilty?", says, "What is that?" When a description is given the youngster then says, "I don't know. I can't remember because it's so long ago." It is impossible to tackle the root of criminal activity if the case comes before the court so long after the event that the youngster, never mind the police and witnesses, has forgotten the activities that led to the court appearance. There is no mention in the Bill of the prejudicial nature of delay to young children. Will the Minister take that on board and consider an amendment in Committee to emphasise, for all those concerned with the criminal justice system, that delay is prejudicial to the young offender, the victim and potential victims if the offender continues a career in crime ?
An academic who looked at the terms of the Bill identified the danger of an increase in the time taken as a result of the provisions in the Bill. Some of the measures that I regard as positive might contribute to that sort of delay and that would be a tragedy. Will the Minister consider that? I ask him please to consider repeating in relation to juvenile offenders the strictures of the Children Act 1989.
On contracting out, my experience in juvenile courts of replacing the police with the Crown prosecution service was a disaster. It removed one or two police officers who were regularly in the juvenile court. They understood young people and acted as a means of communication between those young people and their families and the police officers who had to bring cases before the court. They made a tremendous contribution to juvenile justice in Cardiff. The loss of those police officers from the court affected not just the presentation of the case but the whole well-being, efficiency and effectiveness of the court system. The policemen's presence and ability to anticipate problems and aid the smooth running of the courts was invaluable.
Has the Home Secretary or Minister of State been involved in escort duty or with some of the young people and adults of whom we are talking? I regret that within the Government there is a mistrust of professionals. Police and prison officers should be enabled to do a proper job and work with the system to use their professionalism and training to the best advantage. I regret that in recent years
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--this is why the Home Secretary's answer on numbers of police officers was unhelpful--the grain of the Government's changes has been to stand in the way of the effective use of the professionalism of police officers and prison officers.Will prisoners be given a choice of private institutions? Presumably, a competitive regime is being proposed. Will they have the same ability as patients within hospital trusts to use competition and to wander the country with money following them in search of the right institution? The purpose of this nonsensical idea is to diminish the status of the service and, like the options for the health service, should be thrown out quickly.
The number of people on remand awaiting sentence undermines the remedial work of prisons, which become places of containment. The message that I have received from prison officers and from their representatives is that they want to do a proper job and to be involved in remedial work, but the present situation in prisons does not allow that.
Then there is the remanding of young people in prisons. The incident at Armley was mentioned earlier and there was an incident at Swansea as well. I hope that the Minister and the Woolf inquiry will carefully consider the evidence of the all-party panel on penal affairs, which includes several people with considerable judicial and judicious experience, because a number of members of the other place take part in its discussions. Its representations are related to both issues, as is the overall approach to tackling and preventing crime in our communities. If only the Government would tackle the entry point to a criminal career among children and young people, and if only they would prevent youngsters from moving up the ladder of a criminal career, many of our problems would become manageable, our prisons and institutions would become manageable and people could use their professional experience positively.
There is an inconsistency in the Bill about the admissibility of evidence from young people. A youngster under 14 does not need to be sworn. The Bill, therefore, acknowledges the special circumstances of young people in court, but it brings the 17-year-old and the 10-year-old together in court. Why is a child aged between 10 and 14 not a child when he is involved in a criminal case? I suggest most strongly that the separation of age groups should be made compulsory. Mixing youngsters who perhaps are charged for the first time with trivial offences and those who have offended repeatedly is bad practice. I ask the Minister to take that point on board and perhaps to accept an amendment to the Bill.
Mr. John Patten : I know that the hon. Gentleman speaks with the authority of someone who sits on the bench as a justice of the peace. I am listening with care to him and apologise for not being present earlier, but I was eating a Mars bar preparatory to my reply to the debate. I followed with care the hon. Gentleman's point about the age range of 10 to 17. The Bill provides for a youth court to deal with those aged between 16 and 17. That will cause a separation between the juvenile court and the youth court, but I wonder how his interesting idea, which I am following with care and on which I have an open mind, would impact on the new division of ages that is introduced by the Bill.
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Mr. Michael : I am grateful for the Minister's response. Other methods of separation would be beneficial to how age groups are treated within the court programming system. It is a point of detail, but the Minister has shown that he is open minded and I hope that there will be an opportunity to examine these matters further. I understand that my general point is supported by the Magistrates Association.
Mr. Bermingham : Does my hon. Friend agree that we must consider not only physical age but mental age? Someone who is 16 may have a mental age of 11. To lump him with someone who has a mental age of 16 can lead to injustice and unfairness.
Mr. Michael : I accept what my hon. Friend says. We must differentiate between criminal sophistication, because there are unsophisticated and very sophisticated 12-year-olds. That cannot be dealt with by simple rules, but only if the court structure is sensitive to such matters. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing out those nuances and I hope that they will be considered seriously in Committee.
The encouragement of parental responsibility is a matter about which we are all concerned, because the method that is chosen is important. I ask the Minister to consider some of the comments that have been made on the White Paper by the Magistrates Association and others who are equally concerned that parental responsibility should be encouraged. I ask him to consider the dangers of introducing methods that place strictures on parents, that have harmful effects and that hasten the breakdown of family relationships. Parents may feel that they are being punished twice for their child's one offence. We must be careful to introduce not measures that pander to easy emotions on parental responsibility but ones that work and help. Again, I feel that I am echoing the comments of the hon. Member for Epping Forest.
My experience is that most children and young people do not need to be involved in crime. We can do much to improve the society in which they live, their training, their job opportunities and their image of themselves. Crime will not be ended by those measures, but it will be brought within manageable limits. That should be our first target, so that the group of individuals who in any society will be involved in crime is kept to a minimum and so that resources are targeted on those who need them and who need treatment.
I was pleased to hear the remarks of the hon. Member for Epping Forest on the differential in the sentencing of ethnic minorities. There is an allied need for constructive work in the community to identify problems and to try to anticipate them, not just in relation to sentencing. Positive, imaginative and preventive schemes in the community can cut crime drastically. Those schemes often depend on the high personal commitment of volunteers and professionals, who have been referred to in the professional circles as "the charismatic nuts". They can operate only for as long as they can keep up the momentum. Long-term success needs resources and long- term planning and teamwork in the community to ensure that the lessons of projects are learned, carried into the court structure and made univerally available where they are needed.
The Government have signally failed on that point and I appeal to the Minister and the Home Secretary to amend the provisions of the Bill that are weak or not justified by
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