House of Commons Hansard Debates for 21 Nov 1990

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commanding officers in the Navy to award stoppages from pay as compensation to cover personal injury as well as for expense, loss or damage.

The inclusion of commanding officers in the Navy in the proposals but not those in the other two services is due to their greater summary powers. Select Committees dealing with successive armed forces Bills have recognised the operational requirement for commanding officers in the Navy to have quite extensive powers of summary jurisdiction.

Clause 9 makes similar provision for civilians sentenced by court martial or standing civilian court. There is no power to award stoppages, but there is already a power to make compensation orders and again this is being extended to cover personal injury. For that new power, the Bill makes provision for the amount of compensation that may be awarded to be limited, initially at £2,000. The powers of the standing civilian courts will always be limited to that which magistrates courts in this country could award. A further provision which derives from the Criminal Justices Act 1988 is made in clause 10. That provides for the first time for a statutory right to compensation for miscarriages of justice before courts martial. The grounds and conditions on which such compensation will be paid are the same as the civil law provisions.

It is clearly proper that such a statutory right should exist in service as well as civil law and that we provide for the appointment of assessors of such compensation in the same way. I add that, like the Home Office, we will be retaining our existing ex gratia arrangements for the payment of compensation for miscarriages of justice which fall outside the scope of the statutory scheme. Overall we do not anticipate any increase in public expenditure, but because the clause introduces a separately defined charge on public funds, I will be asking the House separately to approve an appropriate money resolution.

I return to the subject of civilians. In particular, I shall concentrate on the significant changes that we are making in service law affecting children and young people under the age of 17. It often comes as a surprise to people to learn that civilians can be subject to service law. That is not new arrangements have existed since 1748. Under current law, many of the provisions in the current service discipline Acts are applied to certain civilians. The number of civilians accompanying the forces abroad, either as dependants or in a professional capacity, is considerable. There are more than 30,000 in Germany alone, although, of course, that number will be reducing. Given that number, it is inevitable that some breaches of the law occur. Nevertheless, it has long been the view that civilians should, as far as possible, be subject to the laws and punishments provided for at home and that they should not be disadvantaged by virtue of their connection with the armed forces. This is the basis for clause 6, which abolishes the power of courts martial and standing civilian courts to make a reception order. Those orders are the service law equivalent overseas of a care order as a criminal disposal and place the offender in local authority care in the United Kingdom. As hon. Members will know, such orders are being abolished by the Children Act 1989 and we therefore see no justification in allowing service courts to continue making them. It is, however, part III of the Bill which introduces the most significant changes in the current provisions in service law in respect of children. Clauses 17 to 23 deal

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with the children of service families at risk overseas. Those provisions are a response to the changes in the civil law enacted in the Children Act.

The detail of the provisions is perhaps best discussed in the Select Committee to which I shall propose that the Bill is committed, although I can assure the House that we have at all times been concerned to ensure that the welfare of the child is paramount. I shall now take a little time to explain some of the thinking behind the proposals to introduce orders providing for the assessment and protection of children at risk. Those are closely based on child assessment orders and emergency protection orders under the 1989 Act. I would like in particular to acknowledge the considerable assistance we have had from the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen's Families Association in the framing of the proposals. It will, of course, continue to play a key role in dealing with these matters. In this sensitive area, and even though the number of cases involved is, thankfully, small, it is right that such matters are dealt with under the law rather than administratively in order to protect the rights of both the children and the parents involved. Since 1981, service law has provided for the removal of children from their families overseas where they were believed to be at risk. The provisions largely mirror those of existing civil law.

We are building on these provisions by giving certain officers new powers to make orders for the assessment and protection of children. The assessment order is completely new, as it is in civil law, and provides in certain circumstances for an assessment of the child to determine whether he or she is suffering or is likely to suffer significant harm. We envisage such orders always being made with some parental involvement and provision is made for certain people to be notified in advance that an application for such an order is being heard. The protection order is designed to deal with a case which is so serious that the child must be removed from his family as an emergency measure. The grounds for making such an order are the same as will apply to a court in this country making an emergency protection order. In these and a number of other respects, the provisions that we are making mirror those in the Children Act. We are, however, retaining certain features of existing orders relating to places of safety. The most obvious difference between our provisions and those in the Children Act 1989 is the possible maximum length of the order set out in clause 21. This will remain at 28 days as opposed to the 15 days that will be allowed for under the Children Act. The decision to retain the 28-day limit has been taken after careful consideration and consultation with interested parties. As the House may know, under current procedures children overseas who are removed to a place of safety under service law may be returned to the United Kingdom, where the order automatically expires after 24 hours. Thereafter, the provisions of the relevant domestic law apply. We are clearly concerned that service parents should be properly involved in those processes in the United Kingdom which determine the longer-term care arrangements for the child. In exceptional cases it can take a few weeks to make all the necessary arrangements with a receiving local authority and for returning the family from overseas. I am satisfied that it is right to provide for such cases.

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We expect that few orders will be made for the maximum period and do not envisage that any will be made for that length from the outset. Clause 22 makes special provision for the periodic review of protection orders and for their discharge. No period of over six days will elapse without a requirement for the order to be tested by a review, a request for an extension of the order or an application for the discharge of the order. The fundamental aim is that a protection order will remain in force for only so long as the conditions exist which must be satisfied for such an order to be made in the first place, and never beyond 28 days. I hope that the House will welcome these changes as a sensible and practical response to developments in civil law.

Finally, I should like to mention briefly two of the other clauses in the Bill. Clauses 14 and 15 are designed to bring up to date the existing provisions in the discipline Acts for making deductions from pay in respect of maintenance. Although there are longstanding provisions protecting the pay of service personnel, we have no wish that they should escape their obligations to pay maintenance for wives and children, particularly when ordered by a court. Recent changes in the civil law have changed the power of courts in the United Kingdom to make orders, and the changes that we are making simply ensure that where courts have the power to make orders there is corresponding power to make deductions from the service man's pay.

I do not propose to comment specifically on the other provisions in the Bill. Some make small changes to rationalise or update provisions in Acts relating to the armed forces, while those of a minor editorial or technical nature are set out in schedule 2. All are covered in the memorandum printed with the Bill.

I hope that the House will agree that we have used the opportunity of renewing the service discipline Acts to make some significant and useful steps to improve them. We in the House rightly pay tribute to the work of the armed services in the responsible and sometimes dangerous work that they do. We have many reasons to be indebted to them. It is our responsibility to ensure that the special codes of law to which service men and service women are subject and which are central to the maintenance of discipline and morale provide a proper framework to enable the services to continue to operate fairly, effectively and efficiently. The Bill is primarily designed to ensure that the system enshrined in the service discipline Acts best serves those purposes.

8.3 pm

Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda) : I thank the Minister for his clear exposition and explanation of the Bill. I must admit that, since the debate was scheduled, I have agonised over what many of the clauses in the Bill mean. The Minister has helped me enormously this evening, and I am sure that he will help us enormously as we progress through the deliberations of the Select Committee.

I begin by echoing the Minister's tribute to our armed forces, who work in such difficult conditions, often in danger of their lives, in this country and abroad. The Opposition join the Minister in paying tribute to service men and service women. The peculiar nature of the Bill is that it comes round every five years, so it gives an opportunity for hon. Members to address the problems of service life and discipline in general. The various clauses of the Bill contain amendments to existing Acts. Perusal of

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the Bill is undertaken not by a Standing Committee but by an ad hoc Select Committee. The Select Committee can consider all aspects of service life and discipline, not only the specific matters dealt with in the Bill. Those specific matters will be dealt with in greater or less detail by my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) later in the debate if he catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, and in the Select Committee.

Whatever we might do or say specifically or generally, we must always remember that our service people are first of all citizens and that our armed forces do not exist in a vacuum. They must be seen in the context of society at large. We should accept the need to parallel, wherever practicable and possible, military and civilian law. When a person joins the armed forces, his civilian status is modified by the superimposition of military status, with certain rights and freedoms restricted to preserve military discipline and readiness.

When the previous Bill was considered five years ago, it was clear from the proceedings of the Committee and discussions during the remaining stages of the Bill that there were several difficulties and disagreements about the work of the Committee. Some hon. Members were deeply unhappy about the procedure followed. May I give the Minister an assurance that the Opposition do not want a repetition of that? We hope to be able to work closely with the Government in examining the Bill.

However, we have some points to make on issues which were raised five years ago and are still matters for concern. My earlier remarks that the services do not operate in a vacuum and about the need, wherever possible and practicable, to bring military law into line with civilian law are pertinent. The matters that we may well want to consider in the Select Committee are the operation of emergency powers, the establishment of service personnel organisations, the composition of courts martial, drug and alcohol abuse in the services, homosexuality, the death penalty, racial discrimination, the rights of ethnic minorities and the problems of bullying in the armed forces.

I shall not rehearse the arguments about the composition of courts martial; I hope that we can finish fairly quickly. However, I wish to give the reasons why we want to discuss the composition of courts martial in the Select Committee. At the last review of the armed forces, there were strong calls for senior non-commissioned officers to be included in courts martial. That was rejected by the Government on various grounds. They used as their argument the Lewis committee report published in 1946, which, on the basis of statistics gathered at that time, said that officers who had risen through the ranks could fairly represent the other ranks.

But, of course, as a result of the war, the composition of the forces was different in 1946. According to the statistics of the Ministry of Defence, it is certainly no longer the case that many officers have risen through the ranks. In 1986, only 22 per cent. of officers had risen from the ranks. Those of us who have served in the armed forces know that only in specialised areas and specialised trades do officers rise from the ranks. Therefore, there is every reason to suppose that officers are now far more remote from the other ranks than when the Lewis committee reported.

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Another argument advanced for not allowing NCOs on to courts martial was that officers had greater experience and knowledge than other ranks. Again, those of us who have served in the armed forces realise that that is not the case. I do not think that many senior warrant officers in the Army would give way on experience to any other rank. Without our NCOs, our armed services would be in great difficulties. I shall not labour the point now, but we should like to examine the matter in Committee.

The second issue is the establishment of service personnel organisations. I emphasise that we are not talking about trade unions in the armed forces, because we realise that trade unions could not play an active part in such a disciplined area. Some service men are members of trade unions, and those in trade sectors are actively encouraged to join unions, especially prior to departure from the armed forces, in order to help bridge the gap between service life and civilian life.

It is obvious to all hon. Members that many service people are disgruntled about not being able to express themselves. I am sure that we have all received letters from service men who ask us to keep their names confidential for fear of reaction from their superior officers. Obviously, that means that there is something wrong in the armed forces. I can see no reason for any Government opposing the development of some form of personnel organisation.

I have said that I recognise the difficulty of trade unions operating in the forces, but we need some organisation for consultation. I do not suggest that out of political dogma, but in a profound belief that such organisations could help to prevent the considerable haemorrhage from the forces of skilled men and women, who have been trained at great expense to a high standard of competence.

For example, in 1982, the premature outflow of personnel from the armed forces was 16,000 a year. The present rate is 27,000 a year, which means that the figure has almost doubled over the last seven years. There are obvious problems. They are not caused simply because people cannot express themselves freely, but perhaps personnel organisations could stem that outflow.

Homosexuality in the armed forces was dealt with by the Select Committee five years ago. Unhappily, it led to some acrimony and differences in Committee. I am sure that the difference between the treatment of homosexuals in civilian life and those in a military context will again be brought up in Committee. Perhaps the Government could attempt to harmonise civilian and military law on homosexuality. In Committee, we shall also want to discuss suspended sentences, because the power to impose such sentences does not seem to have been extended to Army or Air Force courts martial or to standing civilian courts, although I understand that clause 12 of the Bill proposes to give Navy courts martial the power to impose suspended sentences. Perhaps the Minister will tell us why that is so.

Drug and alcohol abuse was also discussed in the Select Committee five years ago. The Committee did not come to any substantial conclusion, and there is now an increasing need to look at this matter again. All those issues affect morale.

I represent a Welsh constituency and served in a Welsh regiment, and I have been greatly lobbied by people in regular and volunteer services in Wales about the possible elimination of the Welsh district. I know that that is not a matter dealt with in the Bill, but it relates to morale, so we are concerned about it. The Minister will know about the

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tribal and national loyalties that are used in recruitment to our regiments. We shall want to discuss that in Committee. Perhaps the Minister could have a word with the Secretary of State about the reorganisation of Army districts.

Other problems brought to our attention recently relate to families in Germany who have to relocate to Britain. They encounter problems about education and housing, and young married women face severe problems with their families in Germany and in Britain when their husbands are abroad in the Gulf and they find difficulty in coping. We are disappointed that the Government are not responding immediately to the important issues raised in the recent Stephen Anderson case, especially in view of the release last January of the Peat, Marwick, McLintock study of racial discrimination and ethnic minorities in the armed forces. The study was commissioned because of universal concern about racial discrimination in the Army, especially in the elite guards regiments. We accept that the Government are not standing still on the issue, and I praise them for what they have already done. However, they are not proceeding quickly on the matter and substantial shortcomings are evident in the Government's ethnic monitoring. Those shortcomings were outlined in the 1987-88 report of the Select Committee on Defence.

The case of Stephen Anderson demonstrates that the carrying out of surveys and studies at the point of recruitment does little to outline or monitor discrimination and abuse at later stages of a service man's career. Lord Justice Taylor and Mr. Justice Morland were quite right to ask the Army Board to look again at this matter in a freshly constituted board, so that fairness and justice can be achieved. Just as important as achieving justice in this case, the judges said that the Army internal procedures were "seriously defective".

We shall look to the Government in Committee to suggest amendments to the Bill and to those procedures so that the serious defects in procedures can be rectified as soon as possible. In seeking that, we are not trying to make a political point but are trying to ensure that racial abuse, bullying and discrimination are exposed and rooted out to the ultimate benefit of all, not just the victims but the poor, twisted, pathetic perpetrators of these crimes.

The Calcutt report was published just after the Select Committee on Defence last reported to the House. I remind the House that the committee inquired into the activities of the service police in Cyprus, which led to service men being brought before a court. It was established that the activities, standards and code of practice of the police needed to be revised. The Calcutt recommendations were concerned with practice rather than the law. The Opposition were pleased to see the issue of a code of practice. Again we congratulate the Government on implementing that in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

Calcutt made only one recommendation that might be embodied in legislation- -in paragraph 6.6, about the potential conflict between the need to learn the nature and significance of a breach of security and the need to bring the offender to justice. Perhaps in Committee the Government can suggest some possibilities in that area. My last general point is about the problems of the largest regiment in the British Army which, oddly enough, operates in a limited area of Britain. That regiment is, of course, the Ulster Defence Regiment. The last time the Committee considered this matter there was some aggravation about it. We want to return to it, because the

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main problem is the controversy surrounding the UDR about allegations of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries and the harassment of nationalist civilians. The Stevens inquiry, set up to investigate those allegations, reported in May, but, in the event, it concentrated more on ways in which to prevent future problems rather than assessing the scale of the existing problem.

The Stevens inquiry made a number of recommendations concerning the Army and the UDR. The key recommendations relate to better screening of recruits and members and the investigation of complaints against members of the Army. Given the tense and difficult situation that pertains in Northern Ireland, agents of the Crown must act fairly and properly. We are extremely concerned about the criminality differential between the civilian population and members of the UDR. It is significant that the level of criminality among members of the UDR is twice that of the general civilian population.

Obviously, the UDR operates under great strain and it is composed mainly of part-timers. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) has suggested that the regiment should consist of full-time members as soon as possible to effect better training and discipline.

The events of the past year and the past few days have created a new backdrop for any deliberations on defence. Those political changes will have a profound impact upon the future shape of our armed forces and our service men. Morale in the Army, Navy and Air Force as they numerically decline is a vital factor. That is why we must take this opportunity to ensure that the laws governing service life and discipline are framed for the 21st century, rather than bogged down in the 19th.

8.21 pm

Mr. Keith Mans (Wyre) : I welcome clause 2, which relates to sentences for young offenders, and clause 14, which deals with maintenance payments. I also welcome the general effect of the Bill, which means that the discipline Acts relating to the Army, Air Force and Navy are brought closer into line with each other and civilian law.

The present three armed forces Acts do not cover the grey area relating to injuries to people when they may or may not be on duty. Often, it is only after the event that it occurs to an individual that he was off duty and therefore not entitled to the various types of compensation available when he is on duty. There should be a tighter definition of the terms of duty, so that all our service men know what to expect in certain circumstances. Problems often occur, for example, as a result of sports injuries.

Although problems relating to insurance are not directly related to the Bill, they have a bearing on it. Most types of insurance for people in the services are slightly more expensive than for their civilian counterparts. Those who fly, for example, carry a loading on their insurance. In the past few weeks, a number of people who have been sent to the Gulf have had great difficulty in discovering whether their insurance policies provide adequate cover.

Insurance business is changing all the time, and we should ensure that service men have a better idea about whether their policies are adequate when posted to a particular area. They should receive more advice before such postings, so that they do not take out various types of insurance that turn out to be absolutely hopeless.

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I agree with what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) said about drugs. We are lucky, because we do not have anything like the problem suffered on the other side of the Atlantic. We should not be complacent, however, because many of our young service men will mix with young people who are likely to take drugs. We must ensure that our young service men receive the best education on drugs so that they know the risks they run from them and are aware of the extra problems that drugs pose for them as service men.

In civilian life, it may be possible to take certain drugs that do not have an immediate effect upon one's job, but that is not so in the services. If someone services a high-performance aircraft while they are not in a tip- top condition, the results can be catastrophic for the hardware and the pilot. It is important that young service men are aware of the risks they run if they indulge in drugs. I agree with the hon. Member for Rhonnda that, in times of change, it is important to pay attention to morale. There is a great deal of uncertainty in the armed forces now--units may be amalgamated and loyalties must change. Most service men are only too ready to make such changes, and many understand that change is part of their everyday life. They must, however, be kept informed about what is happening. Nothing annoys service men more than to be kept in the dark, only to find out indirectly what is to happen in the next weeks or months.

Separation can also have an effect on morale, especially when we consider the lengths of tour of service men in the Gulf or in the Falklands. People in different arms of the same service or in different services serving alongside one another may find that they have completely different conditions of service. When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence recently toured the Gulf, an announcement was made about changes in the tour lengths decided upon by the Air Force and the Army. When people in different services work with each other it is important to ensure that tour lengths do not lower morale.

Another cause of poor morale is allowances--given their complicated nature, we must ensure that, when people move from area to area, they do not suffer as a result. A service man cannot refuse to go to a particular part of the world, but he may not realise that that posting has a significant change on his allowances and pay, albeit for a short time. It is important to explain any changes beforehand. If such explanations had been made before the deployment of our armed forces to the Gulf, we would not have faced the problems that arose--which, although not great, may affect morale.

It is a pleasure to welcome the Bill.

8.28 pm

Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East) : You will have noticed, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the atmosphere in the Chamber this evening is rather calmer than it is elsewhere in the building. That is perhaps a significant reminder to us that, whatever political battles may take place outside, the business of the House still requires to be transacted, and perhaps no business of the House is more significant or important than the Armed Forces Bill. We discuss the Bill on the eve of a debate about confidence in Her Majesty's Government. Some of

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us may feel that that makes our proceedings like the porter's scene in "Macbeth", but without the textual or dramatic significance. We should not, however, take these proceedings as a matter of course. What is happening this evening is deeply rooted in the constitutional history of the United Kingdom, involving as it does the supremacy of Parliament and the suppression of what was once the Royal Prerogative. The fact that an Armed Forces Act is required every five years to prevent the Army Act 1955, the Air Force Act 1955 and the Naval Discipline Act 1957 from lapsing is no mere administrative inconvenience ; it reflects the fact that control of our armed forces and their disciplines is part of the exclusive responsibility of this honourable House.

Thus, every five years, we are given an important opportunity to review military law. I hope that the House will conclude that this is not a matter to be lightly cast aside. In the past it has been suggested that the statute should have permanent effect, but I am reluctant to allow that to happen as the opportunity that we are given every five years allows continual scrutiny of the facts and circumstances of service life.

Although the Bill deals with discipline, the invoking of its provisions--or those of the three service discipline Acts--is invariably due to a breakdown in discipline. The success of any armed service, or any unit within it, depends on self-discipline, not on statutory provisions. Reference has already been made to the special loyalty that attaches to some regiments in connection with their association with certain parts of the country. Coming from Scotland, I readily appreciate that, and there is no doubt that such geographical associations frequently make a substantial contribution to loyalty and morale. I hope that, in the changing circumstances that we all perceive, any proposals that are made will be sensitive to those associations, on the understanding that to remove them insensitively could well affect the loyalty and, indeed, the efficiency of those serving in the armed forces.

Of course, a special case cannot be made for every regiment or every regiment ever formed would have continued to exist. I hope, however, that in view of the difficult and changing circumstances that will necessarily follow the adoption of "Options for Change" or any similar proposal the Government will show the necessary sensitivity.

As has already been said, the Bill gives us an opportunity to consider more than just the proposals that it contains. My approach, which springs as much from my interest in legal affairs as from my interest in defence, is that the distinction between civilian and military justice can be justified only if it is made necessary by the special circumstances of military service as opposed to civilian life. Two examples have already been mentioned--the continued existence of the death penalty, and the law relating to homosexuality. In both regards, there is a sharp distinction between civilian and service life.

I hope that the Select Committee will examine with great care the arguments for the retention of the death penalty in service discipline. For my part, I find it very difficult to see how that penalty can still be justified in 1990, no matter how extreme the circumstances. I am in no doubt about its application in civilian life, which I have consistently opposed. Of course, I have no direct experience of service life.

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As for homosexuality, there is little doubt that the climate of opinion in civilian life is much more tolerant than that reflected in the statutory provisions relating to the services. I recognise that specific considerations and difficulties may arise from the proximity in which service men are forced to work, and the nature of the relationships that are formed. It is possible for members of one rank to take advantage--both literally and metaphorically--of members of a lower rank. None the less, I feel that we should consider this issue with great care and sensitivity.

The Bill raises some very complex legal issues. I do not think that it is appropriate to deal with all of them in detail on Second Reading. I welcome the provisions relating to children. I am also particularly interested in those concerned with

compensation--especially the creation, under clause 10, of a statutory right to compensation for wrongful conviction by court martial. I hope that the Select Committee will examine both the conduct and the constitution of courts martial.

I have had two experiences of courts martial, one professional and one relating to a constituent. As a civilian lawyer, I defended a naval rating and was particularly impressed by the extent to which the service lawyers went out of their way to ensure that a civilian lawyer who might not necessarily be familiar with the procedures was properly advised and, to some extent, properly instructed. I was also impressed by the skill with which the judge advocate conducted the part of the proceedings which lay within his responsibility. I came away with a high regard for naval discipline as reflected in the conduct of that court martial.

My constituency experience involved a service man sentenced, in the first instance, to seven years' imprisonment for an offence that I need not detail. By the time he had exhausted the appeal procedures available to him, his sentence had been reduced to six months and he had to be released immediately because he had already, in effect, served a six-month sentence.

As I have said, it is important to examine the constitutional implications of courts martial. A civilian on trial before a jury on a serious criminal charge is tried by a group of people drawn by lot--at random--from the electoral register. Such a person is truly tried by his peers. It may not be appropriate to institute in service discipline a system that parallels that precisely in the form of courts martial, but we should surely ask whether it is possible to ensure that the constitution of courts martial more effectively reflects the overall constitution of the armed forces.

We must also try to achieve some consistency in sentencing. I have already mentioned the experience of one of my constituents. It cannot be right for a person to be subject in the first instance to a seven-year sentence, and then find it reduced to six months. I know of no parallel in civil criminal justice--certainly I have encountered none in my professional experience-- and I feel that we should devote some consideration to the way in which the powers available to courts martial are exercised.

Those are just a few of the issues that the Bill will allow us to consider. In some respects, it confers a constitutional imperative--if it did not pass into law, service discipline would cease to have any proper statutory basis. For that reason, in the House this evening, the Bill can hardly be regarded as controversial. I am happy to support it and, if

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the lot falls to me, I look forward to raising some of the issues to which I have referred briefly on an occasion when they will be given deeper and wider consideration.

8.40 pm

Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith (Wealden) : It is invariably a pleasure to follow the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell), who speaks with not only great wisdom and insight, but superb knowledge of the law. I am happy to say that I have a knowledge only of basic aspects of the law which keeps me out of trouble. Therefore, I was surprised to hear that those who serve in the Army are subject to the death penalty. I served for five years in the Army and was unaware of that. I thought that the only threat to my life was from the enemy, not from lack of service to the law. As someone who strongly opposes the death penalty, I wish the hon. and learned Gentleman well in his crusade in Committee.

As the hon. and learned Gentleman rightly said, there is no doubt that we must remember that we are dealing with a different society in the armed services when considering homosexuality. Much as I welcome the Bill, the armed services society is different from that of civilian life and, where that difference is apparent, it must show itself in the law.

The Bill is extraordinarily welcome. It comes as a surprise to many of us that civilians can be subject to military law. We can understand that in some "combat areas"--a phrase introduced by Hollywood--that application of military law should rightly apply. However, when there are so many families abroad and civilians helping with important maintenance tasks, it seems remarkably archaic that they should not have the protection of the law that we have helped to establish and create through the proceedings of the House. The Government are to be particularly congratulated on the special attention paid to children in part III. One of the best pieces of legislation passed by the Government in their eleven and a half majestic years of administration was the Children Act 1989. It received widespread support from both sides of the House and showed the House at its best. It is particularly important that the changes introduced in the Bill will represent children's interests. As my hon. Friend the Minister said, we must at all times hold in special consideration the welfare of children, which is paramount. We would expect children resident in this country to enjoy the care and protection of the Children Act.

We all welcome the fact that the changes in the law bring military law more into line with civilian law. I certainly welcome it. I have already exhibited my comparatively scant knowledge of the law. The Bill will help to give greater clarity ; it will help the soldier, sailor and airman and those who advise them to understand what the law is about.

The Bill is significant because for the first time it makes it a statutory right for members of the armed services to receive compensation for miscarriages of justice before a court martial. That was the very point made by the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East. I have been involved in a court martial and have great respect for the procedures. In many respects, those who come before a court martial seem to get a fairer hearing than they would in some civilian courts. We do not want to destroy that spirit, but a court martial can make an error, so it is a wise

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step to give people the statutory right to receive compensation for miscarriages of justice. I welcome the initiative taken by the Government.

8.47 pm

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : I welcome any overhaul of military legislation. Courts martial are important--my experience as a Member of Parliament points to that.

Several years ago, for a former constituent, I raised on the Floor of the House the matter of bullying in the British Army of the Rhine. He came to me and said that he had bruising on his back and was absent without leave. He said that his wife and mother were worried that if he went back to his regiment in West Germany in those circumstances he might face death. The bullying consisted of him and his comrades in arms being tied to the back of a lorry and being hit with a sledge hammer. As a result, he suffered serious injuries, the consequences of which he still suffers.

I raised the matter with the then Minister and received a guarantee that my constituent would not be sent back to West Germany pending a full inquiry, which was carried out. There were courts martial and this apparently outlandish story, told to me in a local hall at an advice surgery, was proved beyond peradventure. A number of people were disciplined by court martial ; some were imprisoned, some expelled with dishonour from the Army and some fined. It did not bring that sort of bullying to an end because repetitions of it have been reported in the papers. I am not as familiar with them as I was with that case. The soldier who had gone absent without leave and so committed an offence was fully justified in taking the case to court martial.

As a consequence of the begrudging and unkindly attitude of the Army to what might be termed a whistle blower, an attempt was made to charge him for his uniform with which they had issued him after arrangements had already been made for him to be discharged from the Army. As I understand it, discussions continue about compensation. The Army did not bring the matter to a gracious conclusion because the soldier had exposed a sore point, a difficulty. At that time, the cold war was still being maintained and the soldier was more frightened of the British Army members involved in the bullying than of the Russians, which was not exactly a bull propaganda point for the maintenance of the nuclear deterrent.

I recognise the importance of military law, but I share the reservation that the death penalty should be removed as in civilian life. If there were a referendum on the issue I do not think there would be a majority to restore the death penalty. Arguments deployed against the death penalty are overwhelming and have been accepted by succeeding generations growing into adulthood without the death penalty. They accept it as a more just application of the law that, where mistakes are made, they can be rectified. That was not so in the infamous case of Timothy Evans, who was hanged in error. Military law should be brought into line with civilian law, and that is why I welcome the appointment of a Select Committee. It is an unusual procedure, but one that will provide an

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opportunity for such alterations to be made to the Bill. There should not be double standards--one for civilian life and one for military life.

I certainly support proposals in the Bill for the standardisation of the Children Act in nearly every respect within military legislation. When the Minister boasts of doing that, he should consider the validity of his assertion and examine the death penalty being retained in military law, as against civilian law.

Questions should be asked about the application of law in the armed forces. In our age the use of armed might has much wider consequences than ever before. The Minister can advise the Prime Minister to use nuclear weapons that would bring death and destruction on a scale hitherto unknown which would reduce some areas of the planet to a radioactive desert. What if someone objects to the deployment and use of nuclear weapons? What would be his position under military law and under the alterations in this Bill? What would be the position of a member of the armed forces who said that the Government were not carrying out their obligations under clause 6 of the United Nations nuclear non-proliferation treaty--a solemn and binding obligation? What if such a person refused to carry out his superior's orders to load nuclear weapons into an aircraft carrier or plane? I note that the Minister is smiling ; when I first mentioned that treaty he thought that we were not signatories to it. Now he knows better because of my pressure, and I am pleased to have educated Ministers in this and other ways.

These are important matters and I want to suggest some alterations to the legislation that would help to take account of these great difficulties.

We know that it is an offence to give military secrets to the enemy, whoever he is now. Temporarily, the enemy is Iraq and Saddam Hussein, but in the longer run the Government are fast running out of targets for our nuclear weapons. What right does a service man or woman have to discuss dangers arising from cracks in the Polaris fleet, for instance? On Monday this week it was widely reported that the Ministry of Defence

"would confirm only that one Polaris boat is still at sea. We do not comment on the operational deployment or technical state of our submarines,' its spokesman said."

If a service man or woman is worried about cracks in the primary water- cooling circuit of the nuclear power plant of a submarine and goes to his or her superior officer, that officer can say, "Shut your mouth." The service man in question might start glowing with radioactivity halfway through the voyage, but that could not be taken into account as reasonable justification for raising the point or blowing the whistle to the newspapers. Presumably it would be regarded as an act of treachery, even though it might save lives. The same report continued :

"According to the independent nuclear engineer, John Large, the defect appears to be cracking in the primary watercooling circuit where it re- enters the reactor pressure vessel, an appallingly difficult place to effect repairs because of radioactivity and the cramped situation-- especially if there is no time to remove the reactor fuel and let the system cool off first."

It appears that someone in the services may have provided this information so that something could be done about it. There should be some means of ensuring that people who use dangerous equipment can raise these issues without the threat of punishment. They should be able to question the use and deployment of the nuclear deterrent. That is their

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moral right because there are no more immoral weapons on the face of the planet than nuclear weapons. I shall not go into that now because it is a little wide of the Bill ; I merely point out that service people might be involved in the deployment and testing of weapons that are to be sold to countries to which the Government were urged by a United Nations resolution of 1988--passed in the General Assembly--not to sell such weapons. What are service people to do in such circumstances? The binding nature of military legislation, as amended by the Bill, places a heavy burden on them.

The United Nations resolution made it plain that member states were to reinforce their national systems of control over the arms trade. All hon. Members agree that that is splendid, but when the Opposition highlighted the supplies of arms to Iraq and the channel of arms through Thailand from western European countries, including from allies such as West Germany, people raised their eyebrows and said that these weapons could be used against our boys in the Gulf, which would be quite wrong. What should a service person, who has raised such issues with his superior officer but feels that nothing is being done and that a cover-up is taking place, do? How long have the cracks in the Polaris fleet been known to the operators of the submarines?

I urge the Minister to consider a report by the Common Market assembly. I call it an assembly because I do not give it much credence. It was a good Government job creation scheme when I found myself resting after 1983, but that is about all. The Government, however, refer to it as a Parliament. That was the title that they gave it in the Single European Act 1986. The argument in the Conservative party is about the degree of commitment that we should exhibit to the Common Market. I merely mention this to show that the European Parliament is a source of information that the Government does value.

The report, dated February 1984 and numbered PE84.688/fin./Ann II, concerns the right of members of the armed forces to form associations. I hope that this legislation can be amended later to allow trade unions to be formed in the armed forces. They already exist in the armed forces of other countries. We may not wish to emulate those countries, but I think that they provide useful examples. I note that the Minister of Trade has just come in for a chat about other matters, which no doubt are concentrating his attention and that of other Tory Members in clumps and congregations throughout the House. None the less, he will be interested to know that the right to form associations is not granted only in a minority of member states--Greece, France and Italy. In Ireland the right is available but not exercised, and in the United Kingdom the right to form an association is granted, but without the right to be consulted. The Minister said earlier that the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen's Families Association had been consulted, and I welcome that useful development. I urge the Minister to go a little further. Associations have a valuable part to play, but it would not be a long step, after associations, to form independent trade unions. Service men and service women would be more likely to trust trade unions to deal with these matters.

The Minister said--I do not dispute it--that the House and the nation at large are indebted to those who serve in the armed forces. If we are indebted to them and if there is a move to form trade unions, why not recognise our indebtedness by providing the armed forces with the opportunity to form independent trade unions? In some of

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the member states of the Common Market professional organisations have the right to be consulted. However, they have no negotiating rights. In Belgium, Germany, Netherlands and Luxembourg those organisations have the right to be consulted. Denmark is the one member state in which professional organisations have negotiating rights.

When I asked the Prime Minister whether she had been to Denmark, she said that there had been useful talks and negotiations with Denmark. She did not tell the Prime Minister of Denmark how wrong it was for the professional organisations to have negotiating rights. She said that Denmark was a loyal member of NATO. The armed forces personnel in Denmark have the right to enter into negotiations. If that happens in Denmark, it could happen in the United Kingdom. In the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, another member state, article 11.5 of its constitution guarantees the freedom, by law, to form trade unions. Service men are allowed to organise or join non-political unions. The majority of them are members of the Syndicat Professionel de la Force Publique, which is part of the Confederation Generale de la Fonction Publique. If it is good enough for Luxembourg, it should be good enough for other member states. The Minister may say that there is only a tiny number of people in Luxembourg, but it is a member state of the Common Market and is represented in all its institutions.

The report makes it clear that in Denmark service men have the same negotiating rights and the same right to conclude agreements as all other Government employees. There are various groups of professional organisations for serving officers, reserve officers and serving soldiers. Those associations negotiate on general pay and working conditions with the Ministry of Defence. They voluntarily renounce the right to strike. Agreement has been reached, therefore, with the trade unions that the right to strike should not be exercised. In the Netherlands, as in the Federal Republic of Germany, officials and service men are not entitled to take part in negotiations. However, the associations must be consulted when the legal status of service men is affected by ministerial rulings, and so on. A central consultative committee has been set up for this purpose with the Secretary of State of the Netherlands as chairman. It meets twice a month and discusses all legal conditions and provisions which affect service men and the policies, guidelines and general principles of the personnel programme. That is exactly the kind of body which could provide effective negotiating and consultative procedures, if they were enshrined in the sort of legislation that we are discussing.

At a lower level in the Netherlands, there are consultative committees in each navy unit, at company, battalion and barrack level for the army and for each air force base or unit. They consider individual cases or questions relating to working conditions. That is exactly the point that I made about the cracks in the Polaris submarine power plants. Instead of courts martial and the panoply of military law bearing down on people, thus intimidating them into not presenting important information, consultative committees would allow such matters to be raised without confrontation. In the Netherlands, there is freedom of the press, including the right to distribute

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broadsheets. There is no right to strike, but soldiers in uniform may stage demonstrations when they are not on duty.

The Netherlands is a member of NATO and of the Common Market. Provision is made in other member states of the Common Market for dealing with these matters, thus reducing the need for the confrontation that is created by the application of military legislation. In the Federal Republic of Germany, which is even stronger following unification,

"the right to form associations to safeguard and improve working and economic conditions is guaranteed to everyone and to all trades, occupations and professions."

That quotation is from article 9(3) of the basic law. Article 17(1) says :

"The right to form associations is therefore a fundamental right under the constitution and this right may not be restricted by laws concerning military service."

The idea of trade unions for our armed forces is not new--they operate in some EC countries.

The Government should seriously consider that. Indeed, they may have to do so. The Conservative party is arguing about the advance of unification. The Prime Minister, having capitulated on everything else, is saying, "We do not want economic and monetary union as a step towards a federal state." There may be a measure in five years' time to harmonise all these standards. Make no mistake, the Common Market is shifting towards a common foreign policy and a common defence policy, but hon. Members do not seem to understand what is happening.

Our service men and women should have at least the same trade union rights as those of our EC partners. That would ensure proper and adequate representation where the first procedures of discipline are used and at courts martial. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) spoke highly of the procedures in courts martial because he attended one as an impartial observer. Some courts martial are not impartial because accused persons' representatives are part of the military. However, that would be improved by an independent body for the armed forces.

I therefore offer a critical welcome to parts of the Bill. I hope that the Minister will at least examine my proposals, but I say that with little hope because, until last week, one of the characteristics of this Conservative Government was complacency. Circumstances have a funny way of catching up with people and their complacency is blown to shreds, as happened to the Government this week. I hope that they will closely consider my suggestions because they will help to improve the law. I do not deny that the Bill makes improvements, but there is always room for improvement, even in this broken-backed Conservative Government.

9.7 pm

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