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Kuwait (Iraqi Withdrawal)
3.31 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"The imminent vote in the Security Council on the limit of time on Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait."
The matter is specific because the issue is no longer the "invasion of Kuwait" but whether outsiders have the right to intervene, even if such intervention involves misery on a scale that is out of all proportion to the initial outrage.
I have to persuade you, Mr. Speaker, that the matter is urgent. The crucial discussion in the UN is to take place on Thursday, and the hostages to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms. Abbott) and others have referred, may prefer detention in Baghdad to the death from the sky which would be their certain fate if war broke out.
The matter is important, and important to the House, because we here must not indulge in courage by proxy. It costs those sitting on these green Benches little to make declarations to the effect that we must resist or that we must do this, that or the other in terms of a military option.
The high price of war will be paid by the country's youth, who were often reared in urban wastelands because there was "no money" to give them anything better. We have obligations to our service men. As national service tank crew and as one who for 21 months wore the emblem of the Desert Rats, I think that it is extremely important that the House shows those in service positions that we discuss what we propose to do.
This question has been repeatedly put and has equally repeatedly been unanswered : what on earth happens if more than one oilfield catches fire? There is only one Red Adair team. At least those questions should be answered before people start firing bullets and setting fire to oilfields.
There is also a matter which is personal to yourself, Mr. Speaker, as Speaker of the House. There are occasions when the two Front Benches are basically agreed on a course of action, rightly or wrongly. I believe that some of us, perhaps many of us on the Opposition Benches, do not share that consensus. Therefore, we rely on your judgment to form a view on whether there should be a debate on a matter of this kind. The Gulf is a matter of overwhelming importance and urgency. If it is not discussed on Tuesday, or, at the latest, Wednesday, it will be too late asnd decisions will then be made in the United Nations.
Mr. Speaker : The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the
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House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,"the imminent vote in the Security Council on the limit of time on Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait."
I in no way underestimate what the hon. Gentleman has said. However, as he knows, under Standing Order No. 20, I must announce my decisions without giving reasons to the House. I have listened with concern and care to the hon. Gentleman, but he knows that I must decide whether his application comes within the Standing Order and whether it should take precedence over the business set down for today or for tomorrow. I regret that, in this case, the matter does not meet the requirements of the Standing Order, and I cannot therefore today submit his application to the House.
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker : Arising from the application under Standing Order No. 20?
Mr. Speaker : Well, we cannot have points of order arising out of that.
Mr. Winnick : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will you give guidance to the House? As it is clear that action is likely to be taken on the diplomatic front, would it not be appropriate, as my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) suggested, for the House to debate the issue as quickly as possible? Obviously there are many different and varied views in the House about the situation in the Gulf, and my view differs from that of my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow. However, I believe that he has a valid point, although there are those of us who believe that it may be necessary for military action to be taken while others like my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow take the opposite point of view.
In the face of the possibility of military conflict, it would be appropriate that there should be a debate on the matter in the House. Can you give the House any advice about such a debate? If you cannot grant one using your powers under Standing Order No. 20, can the Government be persuaded to have a debate in the near future?
Mr. Speaker : That is a very different matter. The hon. Gentleman is aware that I have difficult decisions to take in these matters. I weighed what the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) had to say with great care, because I received his request to make the application before 12 o'clock today. I have not turned down his application lightly, and in no way do I underestimate the importance of the matter.
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Fishing Vessel (Sinking)
3.39 pm
Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that the Minister of State for the Armed Forces made a statement on Friday about the tragic sinking of the fishing vessel Antares. Since then it has emerged that a trainee commander was in charge of the submarine that brought down the fishing vessel and that there was a very long delay in alerting the rescue services. As the Clyde fishermen are now threatening to blockade the Clyde unless action is taken to stop underwater submarine activities forthwith, have you had a request for a further statement from the Minister to correct the errors and omissions that were made on Friday and in view of the increased urgency of this particular matter?
Mr. Speaker : I have not had any such requests. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I granted a private notice question about this important matter on Friday. It may be true that certain further information has come to public notice since then, but an inquiry is to be held, and no doubt that will be taken into account at the time.
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European Community Documents
3.40 pm
Mr. Teddy Taylor (Southend, East) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether it is in order for the House to consider the motion being proposed by the Leader of the House that we should make a decision pursuant to Standing Order 102(2) in respect of a European Community document. I have just obtained a copy of Standing Orders from the Vote Office, and Standing Order 102(2) does not appear to cover this matter.
I then consulted your excellent Clerks, Mr. Speaker, who told me that there was a new Standing Order 102(2) somewhere which had been agreed at the end of the Session--indeed, I remember the debate on it. Unfortunately, however, the Clerks did not have a copy and sent me to the Vote Office, where, sad to say, I was told that there was no copy of the new Standing Order, because it was being printed.
This is not a jocular issue--not a matter of trying to pick an argument. I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, will consider three aspects. First, the only reason why the motion has been tabled is that the Council of Ministers is meeting next week--that is why the document has been switched from a Committee to the Floor of the House. Secondly, the meat of the motion is huge. It proposes to put an end to the control on the possession of weapons at internal borders--a vital issue.
Thirdly, in an explanatory note, the Minister responsible has said that this is an abuse of article 100A on majority voting--
Mr. Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman must not debate the matter. He must now allow me to give the reasons for this.
The Standing Order was agreed to on 24 October
Mr. Speaker : The hon. Gentleman says that he was here, so he knows that it was agreed to by the House. I shall look into why the Standing Orders have not yet been printed--they were sent to the printers immediately after the debate. A similar motion was passed last week and is part of our Standing Orders. I have to put the Question
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : Is there not a way around this--
Mr. Taylor : Mr. Speaker, I am not a troublemaker, but a specific period of time has elapsed. I cannot recall the wording of the Standing Order ; I cannot obtain it from the Vote Office ; and under the Standing Orders of the House, we need to have the papers necessary to take a decision. It is possible to regard the whole matter as a joke and to claim that it does not matter what papers we have because the Government will get their business through anyway, but that is not what I came here for 25 years ago. We are entitled to the necessary papers for decisions to be made.
The Chief Whip will recall the Single Act being put through late on a Thursday. Now we are to put through a vital issue again late on a Thursday or early on a Friday. Surely we should go through the proper procedures. How can we do that?
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Mr. Speaker : Order. We are going through the right procedures. The matter has been passed by the House and it is part of our Standing Orders. I have no authority to do anything other than put the Question. The hon. Gentleman was here, and if he does not like the motion, he can vote against it now.Mr. Skinner : There is a way around this. Notwithstanding the vote taken in a general form last week--
Mr. Speaker : Not last week--last month.
Mr. Skinner : Last month. I want to ask you to tell the Leader of the House that this procedure has been found wanting because the relevant information cannot be obtained from the Vote Office. This matter can be taken off the agenda and brought back when the information is available. All the Leader of the House has to do is to stop this nonsense continuing.
Mr. Speaker : The information is of course available
Mr. Speaker : It was in Hansard at the time ; it is certainly in the Table Office.
Mr. Taylor : I am sorry, Sir--this is not fair.
Mr. Speaker : Order! It is not a question of not being fair. It is a question of the House having passed the Standing Order. I have no authority to go against a decision of the House. The hon. Gentleman knows that
Mr. Speaker : Order. I will read out the motion passed by the House on 24 October. It states :
"If a Motion that specified European Community documents as aforesaid shall not stand referred to a European Standing Committee is made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business, the Question thereon shall be put forthwith."
The hon. Gentleman can vote against that if he does not like it, but I have no authority other than to put that motion.
Mr. Taylor : I apologise for rising again, Mr. Speaker ; this is my last intervention. There is no point in voting for or against. Our choice on the motion is either to discuss the directive in the early hours of Friday morning when no one will hear about it, or to put it to a Committee that is stuffed with people appointed by the Government. The issue here is that, under Standing Orders, the papers required for a debate must be in the hands of the House.
You, Mr. Speaker, are the only person who can protect us here. Why are those papers not available in the Vote Office? There is no point in voting on the motion because, either way, it will slip through and nobody will know about it, even though it is a vital issue. I simply say that papers should be available and that it is your duty to ensure that.
Mr. Speaker : Is the hon. Gentleman saying that European Document No. 8836/90 is not available?
Mr. Taylor : No--the Standing Order is not available.
Mr. Speaker : Well, I have explained to the hon. Gentleman that the Standing Order was passed by the
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House. The Speaker's hands are tied in matters of this kind. When the House passes a change in Standing Orders, I am obliged to accept it. I must now put the Question.Mr. Skinner : There is another point--
Mr. Speaker : Order. I do not need the hon. Gentleman's help, helpful though he always is.
Mr. Skinner : The Committees have not been formed.
Mr. Speaker : Please sit down.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 102(2) (Standing Committees on European Community Documents).
Weapons
That European Community Document No. 8836/90 relating to acquisition and possession of weapons shall not stand referred to European Standing Committee C.
The House divided : Ayes 164, Noes 19.
Division No. 10] [3.46 pm
AYES
Alexander, Richard
Amos, Alan
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Bendall, Vivian
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Boscawen, Hon Robert
Bottomley, Peter
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)
Bowis, John
Brandon-Bravo, Martin
Bright, Graham
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Buck, Sir Antony
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Chapman, Sydney
Chope, Christopher
Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cormack, Patrick
Cran, James
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Devlin, Tim
Dicks, Terry
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Tony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey
Fishburn, John Dudley
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Sir Marcus
Franks, Cecil
Gale, Roger
Gardiner, George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Glyn, Dr Sir Alan
Goodlad, Alastair
Gorst, John
Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Grylls, Michael
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Alan
Hayward, Robert
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Hind, Kenneth
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Irvine, Michael
Janman, Tim
Jones, Robert B (Herts W)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, David
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Lang, Ian
Latham, Michael
Lawrence, Ivan
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Lightbown, David
Lilley, Peter
Macfarlane, Sir Neil
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Maclean, David
Maclennan, Robert
McLoughlin, Patrick
Major, Rt Hon John
Malins, Humfrey
Mans, Keith
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Miller, Sir Hal
Morrison, Sir Charles
Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)
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