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Mr. Martlew : Will the Minister elaborate on that point? Which law would be broken if a person were dismissed on those grounds?
Mr. Scott : Employment protection legislation.
Mr. Martlew : That does not always apply.
Mr. Scott : So long as a person has been working for a reasonable time for the employer--
Mr. Scott : Yes, I accept that point.
My right hon. Friend and I have seen the report. Although it deals mainly with employment protection and wages matters, it includes some references to SSP. The Department has already sent to NACAB a detailed reply on all the recommendations relating to Department of Social Security responsibilities. Despite some individual cases cited, which hon. Members have mentioned tonight, it is certainly not our experience that employers cannot operate the scheme.
Over the past two years we have made considerable efforts better to inform employers about SSP. We have employed outside market research consultants and the SSP guide for employers has been completely revised in both content and presentation. A quick guide has been introduced which employers can use in straightforward cases. A wall chart and a video have also been made available. I can tell the House that the new literature has been widely welcomed by business. In addition, the Department provides a freeline telephone inquiry service directly for employers about national insurance contributions, SSP and statutory maternity pay, plus a free seminar service. Since January, well-attended seminars have been held in many major towns and cities.
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I should also point out that the Department has a representative employers panel, consisting of small and large employers and their organisations. It includes, for example, the National Federation of Self Employed and Small Businesses and the CBI. They are regularly consulted by us.I accept that there will always be small employers who will be unsure about some aspects of the scheme, mainly because they need to operate SSP only infrequently. I hope that the House will agree that the initiatives that we have taken and will continue to take will greatly reduce any problems.
Finally, if NACAB, the Low Pay Unit or any other organisation uncovers what it believes are either malpractice or mistakes by an employer, it should let the local social security office know immediately. A set procedure is put into operation when an employee considers that he has been wrongly denied SSP or is not being paid the correct amount. The employee should ask for a formal decision from the adjudication officer in his local DSS office. Where an employer fails to comply with a decision of the adjudicating authorities within the prescribed time, responsibility for paying SSP passes to the DSS, which will at the same time consider further action against the employer. The employee is therefore fully protected, if the correct action is taken promptly.
Much has been said during the debate about occupational sick pay coverage, and Opposition Members have called into question the Government's assertion that the majority of employees will have any difference in SSP entitlement made up by occupational sick pay. The research was carried out by a responsible and respectable international consultancy organisation and it is on that information that we base our claims that, although we do not know exactly how many people are covered by sick pay schemes, 90 per cent. of firms have such schemes.
We have had a good debate. The Government have taken the right steps and I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time : The House divided : Ayes 231, Noes 119
Division No. 11] [10 pm
AYES
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael
Allason, Rupert
Amess, David
Amos, Alan
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas
Ashby, David
Aspinwall, Jack
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, David
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Benyon, W.
Bevan, David Gilroy
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Boscawen, Hon Robert
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Browne, John (Winchester)
Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Cash, William
Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sydney
Chope, Christopher
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cormack, Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Devlin, Tim
Dover, Den
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Tony
Dykes, Hugh
Column 709
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)Fallon, Michael
Favell, Tony
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey
Fishburn, John Dudley
Fookes, Dame Janet
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Sir Marcus
Franks, Cecil
Freeman, Roger
Gale, Roger
Gardiner, George
Gill, Christopher
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Glyn, Dr Sir Alan
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Ground, Patrick
Grylls, Michael
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Hague, William
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, John
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Alan
Hawkins, Christopher
Hayes, Jerry
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney
Hayward, Robert
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)
Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Hill, James
Hind, Kenneth
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Irvine, Michael
Jack, Michael
Janman, Tim
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (Herts W)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Knowles, Michael
Knox, David
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Lang, Ian
Latham, Michael
Lawrence, Ivan
Lightbown, David
Lilley, Peter
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McCrindle, Sir Robert
Macfarlane, Sir Neil
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Mans, Keith
Maples, John
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Maude, Hon Francis
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Miller, Sir Hal
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David
Moate, Roger
Morrison, Sir Charles
Moss, Malcolm
Mudd, David
Neale, Gerrard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Paice, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Price, Sir David
Raffan, Keith
Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Rhodes James, Robert
Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas
Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)
Rowe, Andrew
Ryder, Richard
Sackville, Hon Tom
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Soames, Hon Nicholas
Speed, Keith
Speller, Tony
Squire, Robin
Stanbrook, Ivor
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stern, Michael
Stevens, Lewis
Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)
Sumberg, David
Summerson, Hugo
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Malcolm
Thurnham, Peter
Tracey, Richard
Trippier, David
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Walker, Bill (T'side North)
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