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Mr. Martlew : Will the Minister elaborate on that point? Which law would be broken if a person were dismissed on those grounds?

Mr. Scott : Employment protection legislation.

Mr. Martlew : That does not always apply.

Mr. Scott : So long as a person has been working for a reasonable time for the employer--

Mr. Martlew : Two years.

Mr. Scott : Yes, I accept that point.

My right hon. Friend and I have seen the report. Although it deals mainly with employment protection and wages matters, it includes some references to SSP. The Department has already sent to NACAB a detailed reply on all the recommendations relating to Department of Social Security responsibilities. Despite some individual cases cited, which hon. Members have mentioned tonight, it is certainly not our experience that employers cannot operate the scheme.

Over the past two years we have made considerable efforts better to inform employers about SSP. We have employed outside market research consultants and the SSP guide for employers has been completely revised in both content and presentation. A quick guide has been introduced which employers can use in straightforward cases. A wall chart and a video have also been made available. I can tell the House that the new literature has been widely welcomed by business. In addition, the Department provides a freeline telephone inquiry service directly for employers about national insurance contributions, SSP and statutory maternity pay, plus a free seminar service. Since January, well-attended seminars have been held in many major towns and cities.

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I should also point out that the Department has a representative employers panel, consisting of small and large employers and their organisations. It includes, for example, the National Federation of Self Employed and Small Businesses and the CBI. They are regularly consulted by us.

I accept that there will always be small employers who will be unsure about some aspects of the scheme, mainly because they need to operate SSP only infrequently. I hope that the House will agree that the initiatives that we have taken and will continue to take will greatly reduce any problems.

Finally, if NACAB, the Low Pay Unit or any other organisation uncovers what it believes are either malpractice or mistakes by an employer, it should let the local social security office know immediately. A set procedure is put into operation when an employee considers that he has been wrongly denied SSP or is not being paid the correct amount. The employee should ask for a formal decision from the adjudication officer in his local DSS office. Where an employer fails to comply with a decision of the adjudicating authorities within the prescribed time, responsibility for paying SSP passes to the DSS, which will at the same time consider further action against the employer. The employee is therefore fully protected, if the correct action is taken promptly.

Much has been said during the debate about occupational sick pay coverage, and Opposition Members have called into question the Government's assertion that the majority of employees will have any difference in SSP entitlement made up by occupational sick pay. The research was carried out by a responsible and respectable international consultancy organisation and it is on that information that we base our claims that, although we do not know exactly how many people are covered by sick pay schemes, 90 per cent. of firms have such schemes.

We have had a good debate. The Government have taken the right steps and I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time : The House divided : Ayes 231, Noes 119

Division No. 11] [10 pm

AYES

Aitken, Jonathan

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Allason, Rupert

Amess, David

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas

Ashby, David

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkins, Robert

Atkinson, David

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Bendall, Vivian

Benyon, W.

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)

Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butterfill, John

Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Chope, Christopher

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cormack, Patrick

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Devlin, Tim

Dover, Den

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Tony

Dykes, Hugh

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Column 709

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

Fallon, Michael

Favell, Tony

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey

Fishburn, John Dudley

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Fox, Sir Marcus

Franks, Cecil

Freeman, Roger

Gale, Roger

Gardiner, George

Gill, Christopher

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Goodlad, Alastair

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Ground, Patrick

Grylls, Michael

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hanley, Jeremy

Hannam, John

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Haselhurst, Alan

Hawkins, Christopher

Hayes, Jerry

Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney

Hayward, Robert

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Hill, James

Hind, Kenneth

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Howard, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hunter, Andrew

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

Jessel, Toby

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Key, Robert

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knowles, Michael

Knox, David

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Lang, Ian

Latham, Michael

Lawrence, Ivan

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Peter

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

McCrindle, Sir Robert

Macfarlane, Sir Neil

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Mans, Keith

Maples, John

Marshall, John (Hendon S)

Maude, Hon Francis

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Miller, Sir Hal

Mills, Iain

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David

Moate, Roger

Morrison, Sir Charles

Moss, Malcolm

Mudd, David

Neale, Gerrard

Nelson, Anthony

Neubert, Michael

Newton, Rt Hon Tony

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

Norris, Steve

Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley

Oppenheim, Phillip

Paice, James

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Porter, David (Waveney)

Portillo, Michael

Powell, William (Corby)

Price, Sir David

Raffan, Keith

Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

Renton, Rt Hon Tim

Rhodes James, Robert

Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

Roberts, Sir Wyn (Conwy)

Rowe, Andrew

Ryder, Richard

Sackville, Hon Tom

Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Sims, Roger

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Soames, Hon Nicholas

Speed, Keith

Speller, Tony

Squire, Robin

Stanbrook, Ivor

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Steen, Anthony

Stern, Michael

Stevens, Lewis

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

Sumberg, David

Summerson, Hugo

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Temple-Morris, Peter

Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Thornton, Malcolm

Thurnham, Peter

Tracey, Richard

Trippier, David

Twinn, Dr Ian

Vaughan, Sir Gerard

Viggers, Peter

Walker, Bill (T'side North)

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