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Mr. Dunn : In the handing out of jobs, all hon. Members know that a tyre is never recycled twice.

The hon. Member for Blackburn said what he would like. I make a plea to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. I hope that, in the fulness of time, he will abolish Her Majesty's inspectorate of schools and replace it with an educational audit commission, which

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will have the responsibility for ensuring that the reforms that we have set in place are measured and evaluated and that there are also value-for-money assessments——

Mr. Straw rose——

Mr. Dunn : The hon. Gentleman knows me too well. Last time we met, he did not do me the courtesy of giving way, and I shall not give way to him now.

Before I was so rudely interrupted, I was saying that the abolition of HMI would be welcome, as would the establishment of an educational audit commission, which could evaluate the educational reforms and give value-for-money assessments, and which should be essential and integral parts of our plans for the future.

In conclusion, I read the reasoned amendment of the Leader of the Opposition and his supporters with great interest and a little amusement. It states :

By their very nature, national pay arrangements divide and weaken the education service. That is why the Bill must be supported. The amendment then refers to placing "standards at risk". That is an element of cant beyond even the scope of the hon. Member for Blackburn. Time and time again in the past year, the hon. Gentleman has been challenged to make his position clear to the people of Dartford. I am the hon. Member for Dartford, and I have a responsibility to the people of Dartford. I ask the hon. Member for Blackburn whether I can now say to the people of Dartford that it is Labour party policy to abolish our grammar schools? The answer is yes, is it not?

Mr. Straw rose——

Mr. Dunn : No, the hon. Gentleman can act like a nodding dog. He has only to nod in answer to my questions. Can I say to the people of Dartford that the Labour party would take into local authority control the New Leigh city technology college? The answer is yes, by the nodding dog's consent. Can I say to the people of Dartford that the Labour party will take into local authority control the grant-maintained grammar school for girls at Wilmington? The nodding dog is saying, "Yes, yes, yes." Can I say to the people of Dartford that all the systems will be abolished and all that they will be permitted is a comprehensive system and no choice? The nodding dog is saying, "Yes, yes, yes."

Mr. Nicholas Bennett : What about the assisted places scheme?

Mr. Dunn : I shall come to that in a minute. Perhaps my hon. Friend will contain his fervour.

The Opposition's amendment claims that the Bill will "place standards at risk". High standards are achieved only through competition, the ability to choose, and parental pressure. When there is only one system in a community, which permits no choice, how can there be standards?

Mr. Burt : Does my hon. Friend agree that it is possible that the standards of the Leader of the Opposition could be raised if there was a little competition on the Opposition Benches?

Mr. Dunn : I would not want to intrude into that debate. As one who has gone through the past few weeks with

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some trepidation and concern, I think that it would be better if the Labour party held its leadership election in the near future——

Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South) : The Labour party is facing a crisis.

Mr. Dunn : My hon. Friend is right. However, I do not want to stray from the essential theme of my speech. I hope that my hon. Friends will be quiet so that I can go down my chosen route.

Choice means standards. Variety and a range of provision lead to an improvement in standards, not the attitude, "You can have any colour of car you want, as long as it is black." That is Labour party policy, and that is why it is ashamed to state its true policy.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) said, not only does the Opposition's policy mean the end of all those provisions, and the imposition of one system ; it also means the abolition of the assisted places scheme. I served as a Back Bencher on the Committee that considered the Bill that introduced that scheme, and the introduction of city technology colleges was my idea. I can truly tell my constituents that the Labour party would do all the things I have mentioned because there is an amity of interest—[Hon. Members : "A what?"]—an amity of interest on the Opposition Front Bench.

Mr. Fatchett : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Dunn : No.

The Opposition's amendment states that the Bill

The Government have a strategy for the raising of standards, for the improvement of parental choice, for variety, and for the accountability of governors and schools to the consumer. There is nothing wrong with that.

There is a noticeable absence of any coherent strategy from the Opposition. Why? It is because nothing is said by Opposition Members unless Mr. Mandelson allows it to be said. Every Opposition speech must be stamped with the approval not of the Egg Marketing Board but of Mr. Mandelson.

Mr. Fatchett : The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's remarks shows that he has little regard for standards. He should update the information that he gives to the House. Peter Mandelson is no longer in the employ of the Labour party.

The hon. Gentleman made a number of points about standards. Could he explain why, when Martin Turner published figures in the summer that showed a decline in reading standards, the Government had no answer and had no figures to show what was happening to reading standards in our schools?

Mr. Dunn : The hon. Gentleman's intervention was both sketchy and shaky. Although Mr. Mandelson is no longer in the direct employ of the Labour party, I suspect that the aroma lingers on. Somewhere in the office of the Leader of the Opposition, there is a little gnome in the image of the hon. Member for Blackburn. It sits there and says, "No, you can't say that. Yes, you can say that." That is dangerous for an Opposition who seek to expose our difficulties. We have a strategy and a commitment.

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I will read the speeches of Opposition Members, especially those of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery), the grandfather of the Labour party. I know that he will make a robust and telling speech, and I am sure that he will be the first to say that his party has no policy. In the light of what was said today, it has not, it will not, and it cannot.

5.36 pm

Mr. Martin Flannery (Sheffield, Hillsborough) : The hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) can be delightfully droll. During the 300 and more hours that we faced each other across the Committee Room when we were debating the so-called reform Bill—I would call it a deformed Bill—he enlightened many a 30 seconds with lovely stories. He came out with the most reactionary thoughts in the most charmingly acceptable language, as he has just done again. I pay him a tribute, because after he was a junior Minister there must have been a time when he went to see the Prime Minister and said to her, "Yes, yes, yes," but she said, "No, no, no," and threw him out. Indeed, she did that with many Conservative Members, one or two of whom are here today. She was merciless, but they have had their revenge. The daggers came out and they threw her out. The hon. Gentleman may even be invited back into the Government.

I want to talk about the reality of the Bill, something that the hon. Gentleman avoided with some skill. I am sorry that the Secretary of State is not in the Chamber. I have known him for quite a long time. Last week, he came to the Select Committee with a couple of officials from his Department. I have served on that Select Committee almost from the beginning. It is customary for Ministers to come to the Committee with the serried ranks of the inspectors who know about education and who can be appealed to about education. Instead, during the whole of the research into teacher shortages, one of the two officials was the only person who told us that he had never encountered low teacher morale. He was at the Select Committee last week, and when he was asked a question, he answered it typically with a monosyllable. I think that he said, "No." The other official said practically nothing.

There is a qualitative change in the approach to education. Instead of the inspectors who know and understand education, we had a couple of departmental bureaucrats who wanted to talk only about money because money is the key to what is happening.

When I heard the Secretary of State waxing lyrical about the high salaries that teachers are supposed to enjoy, I thought that he should contact Andrew Lloyd Webber's agent, to see whether his words could be set to music. It could be called, "Kenneth Clarke Superstar" or something like that. Elaine Page could pay the role of a prima donna schoolteacher, singing how joyous it is to teach 40 kids, and how lovely to get a miserable wage and have practically no morale. That is the true posiition, but the Government refuse to face up to it at any cost. That will be a great part of their undoing in what I hope will be the not-too-distant future.

I refer now to the terms in which the International Labour Organisation report talks about the Bill. It proves that the Government broke international law with the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act 1987. It is no use the Secretary of State arguing that the report was produced by only a minor committee, because it is one of the major

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committees of the ILO, which itself is affiliated to the United Nations Organisation—and the report has its agreement too. It is not just a piece of paper, but a major report.

Paragraph 72 of the report states :

yet the Secretary of State said that there had been no communication—

The following paragraph states that the Bill is really only about consultation and has nothing to do with negotiation, because whatever negotiations have taken place through whatever parties were involved, they would be disregarded, and could be disregarded, by the Secretary of State, who can then decide what the salaries of teachers should be, in his opinion.

The hon. Member for Dartford spoke about rubber stamping, but we have seen 11 years of the Conservative party being terrified by the local headmistress. Conservative Members did not dare say a word wrong, because the Prime Minister would have thrown them out. The hon. Gentleman accuses us of rubber stamping, but we saw Conservative Members crawling and grovelling to the nearly ex-Prime Minister. I emphasise that not all Conservative Members did that. Some noble souls did not grovel, but they paid the price.

The ILO points out that the Bill contravenes article 4 of convention 98, which was ratified by the present Government. The principles enunciated by the ILO are among those to which the Government are party, yet the Government are violating a convention to which they are a signatory. Despite that, the Secretary of State makes empty arguments in trying to prove that the ILO does not represent the organisation that it does. He will not go along with the convention but means to have his own way.

The Bill is really saying, "No negotiation about teachers' wages—only dictatorship." That is extremely sad for everyone connected with education—including parents, children and governors—many of whom are being given all sorts of new duties that will frighten them away. Governors will be lost, because much of the work now undertaken by local education authorities will have to be done by governors.

The Secretary of State spoke about the individual deciding his own wage, but there are no negotiations under the present system. Instead, a head can tell a teacher the wage that he will receive. Heads will be able to offer inducements—some have already done so—for teachers to opt out of national negotiations in favour of personal and private negotiations. There will then be no need for trade unions or local education authorities. in their place will be something in which the Conservative party profoundly believes—a system whereby a big stick is waved in the faces of ordinary working people, who will be told that they will receive a wage that has already been decided, with no question of any negotiation.

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The ILO points out that three major aspects of the Bill violate the convention agreed by the United Nations and to which the Government were a signatory. First is the Secretary of State's power to reject any negotiated settlement with which he disagrees and to impose his own. Secondly, there is the proposal to establish a permanent body similar to the existing interim advisory committee. The third violation is the provision enabling individual LEAs and grant-maintained schools to opt out of national negotiations without establishing local negotiating machinery. Teaching staff will be left to negotiate for themselves, without any strength behind them.

This is the second time that the ILO has found the Government in breach of international law. The Government mean to force through their legislation, knowing that it violates the rules by which every other European nation abides. It is diktat rather than negotiation, which violates not only the convention that has the support of the ILO and the United Nations but the beliefs of every other European nation.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett : One of the claims often made by teachers' unions is that their members earn less than a London secretary. If there is one group of employees who are not unionised it is London secretaries, who are in a free market in negotiating their salaries. Does not the hon. Gentleman see a contradiction in the unions saying that teachers do not earn as much as London secretaries, when the latter are not unionised?

Mr. Flannery : The hon. Gentleman has some kind of vendetta against unions. That is nothing strange, because I see in their places a number of Conservative Members who share that view. However, when a complaint about the Bill was lodged with the ILO, it came not just from a union but from the World Confederation of Organs of the Teaching Profession throughout the World. The hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) might try to laugh that out of existence, but the Government refuse to acknowledge that education is steadily moving into crisis. That will undoubtedly help to defeat the Government, but our children are suffering in the process.

Schools are tumbling down around our ears for lack of money, and parents are worried sick about their children's education. Meanwhile, the Government have siphoned off more than £400 million this year to private education, and they will give another £200 million over the next couple of years—making a total of about £625 million of public money going into the assisted places scheme and city technology colleges.

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : Does my hon. Friend agree that, although the Tories were jeering about the International Labour Organisation—which is affiliated to the United Nations, as he said—they have a different view when the Prime Minister supports the UN's attitude towards Iraq? Then they display complete and almost abject loyalty to it. However, if it does not suit them—almost within the same breath—they sneer at the UN and its affiliated bodies, as they have done tonight.

Mr. Flannery : I think that every hon. Member in the Chamber will recognise the truth of what my hon. Friend has just said. Tory Members choose what is acceptable to them about the United Nations and UNESCO, but are against anything they do with which they disagree, or which costs money. At the same time, they are taking

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money from our children and giving it to private education. As they know, our children are suffering. Teachers are working harder than ever and are maligned by the Conservative party, and it is no use Tory Members denying it.

The convention which I mentioned and to which the Government have agreed, was formulated to protect citizens from abuse of power. Conservative Members are against UN conventions, signed by the Conservative party, which aim to protect citizens from the abuse of power.

The Government will give the Secretary of State the right arbitrarily to abuse power and to breach an international law that the Government have already signed, by passing the Bill. I do not think that any Conservative Members realise that.

I bet that no Conservative Member has the ILO report on the Bill, which is fundamental, or has read it. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Pembroke is muttering something—if only I could hear it.

The ILO refers to the legislation as

It also points out that local authorities and schools that opt out of national negotiations would be obliged only to consult, rather than to negotiate with, their teachers. The ILO report continues by telling the Government to frame their legislation differently, so that it

which they have signed. That is the problem that we now face.

The Opposition think that this faulty legislation will further disrupt our educational system in many ways—God knows, it is on the verge of major disruption and none of us wants that. We want harmony in schools. We want our children to be in smaller classes. We want teachers to have reasonable wages, to be well trained and we want plenty of them. Practically all of that is non-existent in Britain at the moment.

Teachers' morale will sink even lower as a result of the Bill. Numerically, we are powerless to stop it and we can only argue against it to the best of our ability. Teachers will see through the trickery and the sleight of hand embodied in the Bill.

Conservative Members do not even seem to have read the Bill, never mind the report on it. With blind loyalty to their party, Conservative Members are pushing our children into large classes. State education is in the hands of people who do not send their children to state schools—most of them do not. I see that the hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) is in the Chamber ; I know that he sends his children to state schools, as he always boasts about it.

Conservative Members do not understand state education. They want to make money out of education. They are masters and mistresses of the tawdry philosophy of the market, and they want to bring it into the classroom. Our children will be in bigger classes and will not have enough teachers. Conservative Members will then start to tell us all sorts of fables about the situation and will say that it does not exist.

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The Secretary of State knows very little about education. I know that he is new. He is like a fresher in this job. He proved very clever at ruining the national health service—wards have been closed. Now it will be not merely a case of wards and hospitals closing. In addition, schools will close and classrooms will have far too many children in them. The competition that Conservatives want will mean that a school in an area where working people are doing the best for their children will not come up to their expectations, another school in a posher area will come up to expectations and the first school will close.

What will the Conservatives do with all the empty schools, when the schools that they make into competitive successes are full? We have experienced this——

Mr. Nicholas Bennett rose——

Mr. Flannery : Not again, please. God bless you, your honour, you are very kind.

Conservative Members do not understand what they are doing with our education system, which has been built up during the best part of 150 years—[Laughter.] It is no good laughing about it.

Whoever becomes the Tory leader—we are not bothered who—will have to face the cold grey light of political dawn, a languishing education system, a national health service that is in great difficulties, and all the other things that Conservative Members laugh about but do not know about.

More and more teachers will opt out of the profession. The Secretary of State told us that the number of people applying to become teachers had increased. Honestly, Madam Deputy Speaker, when he opens his mouth practically anything can come out—he says anything. He tries to make the situation look beautiful but anyone who visits schools or who talks to parents or governors knows that they are at their wits' end to know what to do after the Government's depredations on the education service. Children will suffer, schools will suffer, and we shall fall even further behind competing nations.

What should the Government do? I would tell them, but they do not need telling. They know what they ought to do, but are consciously refusing to do it. The only answer is to restore free negotiating rights—six separate teachers' unions negotiating with their employers. When they have come to an agreement, they will be able to go to the Secretary of State knowing that, more than likely, it will be ratified. If he does not want to ratify it, he will discuss with them what he thinks is wrong.

What is fundamental—this is what makes the Conservatives choke on what they ought to do—is to give more money to education. It is the only way. More money means more teachers, smaller classes, better schools, more equipment and more books. It means all the things that we now need in our education system. Conservative Members call it throwing money at a problem, as if they ever threw money at our problems. They throw money only at their own problems, such as Guinness. I have just outlined the only answer. There is no other way. This tawdry Bill is another statement to the general public that the Conservatives will not change one iota, but will continue in the wretched manner in which they have conducted themselves thus far.

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