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5.58 pm

Mr. James Pawsey (Rugby and Kenilworth) : Towards the end of his speech, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) referred to the need for more money. I wonder if he has noted an interesting omission from the list of supporters of the Opposition amendment. If he looks at the Order Paper, he will see that there is no shadow Treasury spokesman in the list. That is a clear sign of just how much Opposition Members care about our children's education. Opposition Members say that they will make improvements only as resources allow, as we have heard on so many occasions. It is clear from that omission that resources will not be allowed.

The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) said that, during a five-year period, one in three teachers leaves the profession. At first sight that seems a fairly damning statistic, but one must understand that there are many women in the teaching profession who will get married and have children. Therefore, it is natural that a number of people should leave the profession. As we all know, they will return when their families start to grow up. Therefore, I do not share the hon. Gentleman's feelings of gloom.

I welcome the Bill, because I believe that, over time, it will help to raise teacher morale. For some years, teachers have, with some strength, complained about the loss of their negotiating rights. The Bill remedies that and, after a reasonable period of reflection, it will be welcomed by teachers, heads and others in the profession. There have been substantial consultations between the Government and teacher unions as well as with the employers—the local education authorities.

Mr. Roy Beggs (Antrim, East) : Consultation is not simply a matter of arranging to hear the views of another party. Consultation fails miserably when Governments fail to listen. I hope that the hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) agrees that consultation should be meaningful and should result in a recognition of real concerns and some effort being made to meet them.

Mr. Pawsey : I am pleased that I gave way to the hon. Gentleman, because I can tell him that the Government do listen. We take on board the recommendations that are made to us by various professional bodies. One can see improvements and modifications that have taken place in various Bills as a result of some of the points made to us. For example, in the Education Reform Act 1988, we adjusted the testing of seven-year-olds. Teachers said to us, quite properly, that the testing arrangements were far too bureaucratic. We took on board the points made, and we have eased the testing requirements. That is an example of how we listen.

The Bill avoids the trap of creating son of Burnham or Burnham mark 2. It does not restore the old discredited machinery which did so much to cause dissent and divide the profession. The Bill provides for negotiations between employers and teachers under an independent chairman. The Government will not be a party to those negotiations. There will be no pre-set financial limit to the negotiations.

I acknowledge quite readily that employers will be aware of the aggregate external finance that the Government will make available for local authority expenditure, and no doubt they will reach decisions in the light of those figures. A time limit, quite properly, will be set upon the negotations and in the event of no agreement being reached by the end of the time limit, something

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similar to the existing independent advisory committee will come into play and the Government will receive recommendations from that body.

I have made it clear in the House over a number of years that teaching is an important and honourable profession. [Hon. Members : "Hear, hear."] I am pleased that my hon. Friends acknowledge that. Perhaps there is some significance in the fact that it was not acknowledged by Opposition Members. Perhaps they do not see the teaching profession in that way. I want teacher remuneration to reflect the true importance of the profession.

As I have said previously, teachers are not always their own best advocates. We can recall the days of action which resulted in the nation's children being sent home from school I think that we all agree that that was disgraceful, and that there can be no justification for such action. Even this year, we saw a leader of a major trade union being shouted down by his own union militants. That is not a good augury. I hope that from the legislation will emerge a better understanding and greater co-operation between teacher and legislator, for the good of the nation's children.

I said earlier that I am anxious to see teachers better remunerated. This measure will be one of the ways in which we might achieve that laudable aim.

An article in the Daily Mail referring to the education service gives the number of teachers and the number in support services. The figures suggest that, out of any 10 people on a local education authority payroll, only about six are teaching children. If that figure is true, the profession is out of balance. This matter has considerable relevance to the debate. It is a truism that one can only spend a pound once. One may spend it on either support staff or teachers. I should like to see much greater funding being made available for teachers and less for support staff. Funding for pay increases exists but it needs to find its way to the teachers in the classroom.

Mr. Matthew Taylor : There are many different sorts of non-teaching staff. Some of them within classrooms provide support for those with special needs or help the teachers when they have to cover other work in the classroom. I assume that the hon. Member does not think that such special support should be cut.

Mr. Pawsey : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because that enables me to refer in greater detail to the article in the Daily Mail. The article divides non-teaching staff, saying that 10 per cent. are involved in central administration, 20 per cent. in schools administration and 10 per cent. in miscellaneous duties.

Mr. Dick Douglas (Dunfermline, West) : rose——

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to raise a point with me?

Mr. Douglas : The hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) is reading figures from a newspaper. Is that in order?

Madam Deputy Speaker : It is perfectly in order for the hon. Gentleman to quote from any publication, and that is what he is doing.

Mr. Pawsey : I had finished the quotation. I believe that it provides the answer for the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor). It underlines my point that we should be making resources available for those who teach. Teachers require

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the extra money, not the bureaucrats or the others in shire hall or wherever. The money should find its way to those who teach ; I hope that hon. Members will not disagree with that.

Ms. Hilary Armstrong (Durham, North-West) rose----

Mr. Pawsey : Perhaps the hon. Lady disagrees.

Ms. Armstrong : I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would care to turn his attention to the increased number of bureaucrats at the Department of Education and Science. My understanding is that, in the past two years, that number has risen considerably, far more than in any other section of education.

Mr. Pawsey : One of the hon. Lady's hon. Friends expressed concern about the likely activities of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. He said that he would be likely to cut the numbers involved. The hon. Lady cannot have it both ways. Either it is good to reduce numbers or it is not. I think that we have probably got it right at the Department of Education and Science.

It is interesting that the Association of County Councils said that it welcomed the proposals in the Queen's Speech to introduce an early Bill to establish permanent negotiating arrangements covering teachers' pay. It offers a general welcome to the proposed legislation and supports the restoration of direct employer-employee pay bargaining.

That brings me to a point that incurred the displeasure of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery). I support the view that local education authorities should be allowed to negotiate rates of pay for their own teaching staff. That point was well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn) in his memorable speech. I know that this arrangement is unpopular with the trade unions. Their argument is that it will not increase the number of teachers. That argument was developed by the hon. Member for Blackburn. He said that, if one authority chooses to pay more money, teachers will be attracted to it from neighbouring authorities. I understand the argument, but I do not agree with it. When enacted, the Bill will encourage teachers who have left the profession to return to it.

The National Union of Teachers says that 360,000 teachers have left the teaching profession. That suggests that there is a remarkably large reservoir of teachers whom we might reach. The Bill is one way to do that ; it may bring more teachers back into the profession. That would answer the shortage arguments that have been advanced. The Bill may persuade women who have left the profession to have families to return to it.

The effect of this part of the Bill will be to increase the number of teachers. Again I refer to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford : that it is interesting that there are other professions in which shortages occur. For example, no one seriously argues that there should be a flat rate for accountants. The decision about how much accountants should get paid is left to individual employers. Given their particular conditions, they pay what they think is fair. If that is right for accountants, why is it not right for teachers? If it works for accountants, why should the same argument not apply equally to teachers?

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If the Bill leads to additional funds being made available for teachers, I shall welcome it wholeheartedly. The independents decide what they pay scales should be. They have little difficulty in encouraging teachers to come forward. I support the view that grant-maintained schools should be able to negotiate the pay of their staff. They would then be able to respond much more quickly to any weakness in their teaching forces. If that encourages more schools to apply for grant-maintained status, so be it. I welcome it absolutely.

I said earlier that one of the effects of the Bill will be to increase the number of teachers. I am aware that the teacher unions believe that the teaching profession is short of about 10,000 teachers. That conflicts strongly with the Department's vacancy survey in September 1990, which shows that 24,000 posts were filled during the summer. On 3 September, only 1,400 posts were not filled. An interesting fact is that only three of the 104 local education authorities reported a larger number of vacancies in September 1990, than in January of this year.

During the past 11 years, this Administration have introduced a number of substantial reforms. They will be truly effective, however, only if they are supported by the majority of the nation's teachers. The majority of United Kingdom teachers are dedicated to their profession and to the children in their charge. This measure is one way in which we can show our support for teachers and direct more money towards them.

6.13 pm

Mr. Matthew Taylor (Truro) : To judge by what happened last Thursday, it seems always to fall to the lot of the Liberal Democrats to be interrupted by an important announcement. The fact that the result of the leadership ballot is about to be made allows me to refer to our amendment. We submit that the debate should be delayed for seven days. Reference has already been made to the impact that a different leader of the Conservative party may have on the Bill. All the contenders for the leadership of the Conservative party have made announcements that could have an impact on the working of the Bill.

Most significantly, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) has suggested that education spending and control should be centralised. If he were to go ahead with that suggestion, there would be no point in having a negotiating machinery that involves local education authorities and the teacher unions. In that case, local education authorities would not perform their present role. It would be more relevant to have a review body at Government level.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer suggests that there should be a separate review of teachers' pay. That appears to conflict with the basis of the Bill. All the leadership contenders have suggested that there should be a review of local government finance. That would lead to confusion over the opting-out proposals. One of the difficulties about the local pay determination proposals put forward by the Government is that the structure of local government finance does not provide the required flexibility to make sense of local pay determination.

The Bill is based on the premise that there should be local education authority funding. However, that is in doubt. There appears to be a conflict, because of the basis

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on which the Bill has been drafted. There are many reasons, therefore, on that score alone, for saying that the Bill ought not to be debated today.

Another reason has been revealed more fully in the debate than I expected. It has become apparent that insufficient documents have been published dealing with the impact of local pay determination on teachers and on local authority finance. The Government have not explained why they are doing this and why they think that it will work. When I asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science about the Department's research, he told the House that he believed that no research had taken place on the subject. He also said that he did not believe that research would have been valid.

It is extraordinary that the Government should embark on the adventure of local pay determination without having tried to determine what the effect is likely to be on teachers' pay, teacher supply, the interaction between different local authorities and in particular the impact of richer authorities—many of them urban authorities—pushing up teacher pay levels, to the disadvantage of smaller and poorer authorities in rural areas. That is surprising, given the number of Conservative Members who represent, as I do, rural areas. I should have expected them already to be aware of the fear in rural areas about the impact of richer authorities upon smaller ones. For a variety of reasons, it is most disadvantageous that the Bill is being debated today.

Education has been labelled by all parties and all the candidates for the leadership of the Conservative party as a priority for the 1990s. It is a key issue upon which the general election is likely to be fought. It is right that that should be so. Public confidence in the Government's commitment to education is at a very low ebb. The Government's duty is to show that they are prepared to tackle the problem constructively. We have had plenty of legislation from the Government. The problem has been the lack of funding to back it up, the speed of change, poor preparation and an environment in which teachers do not trust the Government and in which schools have not the resources to cope with the demands placed on them.

The Bill cannot be accused of speed of change. We have been waiting far too long for the restoration of proper teacher pay machinery. It was suggested in December 1989 that a new structure would be in place by now but, as Liberal Democrats predicted, the present interim advisory committee has had to be extended for a further year.

Part of the reason for the low morale in the profession must be that continued uncertainty and teachers' lack of involvement in the settlement of pay and conditions. I say that with some knowledge, because I have visited more than 60 schools and talked to teachers, and that was one of the subjects that they raised. Although the Bill is overdue, and although I have considerable concerns about its details, we shall not oppose its Second Reading, not because we believe that it is adequate—we shall be looking for specific changes—but because we do not want to hold up the reintroduction of the pay machinery for teachers. I am sure that the Minister would not expect us to agree with all the Bill's provisions, but we do not believe that there would be any advantage in seeking to throw it out and to hold up for perhaps another year the introduction of negotiating machinery.

The background for my concern is teacher supply and morale. Much reference has been made to supply problems. The May 1990 report of the Select Committee

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on Education, Science and Arts on teacher supply highlighted those problems and called for the restoration of negotiating rights as soon as possible. That would help to restore the status of teaching as a career, because simply putting in place the machinery will not solve the supply problem. As the most basic economist knows, part of the problem is that pay is not sufficiently high to attract the supply, and that is particularly so in certain areas. The figures have been given already, but it is fairly extraordinary that the Government, who claim economic credibility, cannot apparently accept that simple point.

It is extraordinary to listen to Conservative Members debate that subject. They argue that the teacher shortage does not result from pay being too low, but it is also the case—[Interruption.] Some news might be coming.

Mr. Dennis Turner (Wolverhampton, South-East) : The Chancellor missed by two votes—third ballot coming up.

Mr. Taylor : If that is so, the question of who will be the leader of the Conservative party remains unresolved. The Chancellor has missed taking the leadership of the party by two votes. There will be a third ballot and the present uncertainty will continue, not least on the future of this Bill.

The point that I was seeking to make is that it is quite extraordinary—

Mr. Cryer : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As you know, a competition has been going on in this place for some time, in which the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) got only 131 votes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer 185 and the Foreign Secretary 56. My point of order is that technically, as I understand it, that means a third ballot. Have you received a statement from the Prime Minister about the candidates being prevented from using Government facilities for a party political matter? That is very important, because the taxpayer does not want to finance these quarrels in the Tory party.

Madam Deputy Speaker : I seem to have been this way before—rather like last week. The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) is a little late this week in giving us the result, which we already know. I have had no message from the Prime Minister or from any other member of the Government. The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) has the Floor.

Mr. Taylor : I am delighted that I got there first.

The point that I am trying to make is that Conservative Members, having denied the problem, argued that local pay determination, which would allow flexibility to increase pay in certain cases, would solve the problem of teacher supply. They tried to face both ways at the same time.

I referred in previous debates to the problems in Cornwall, which are not typical. In many ways, we are in a better position than many authorities, but there has been a decline in applications for many posts, although quality has not been perceptibly affected. There has been some decline in applications for primary headships. I have quoted previously from local head teachers who wrote to me about the problems that they have experienced, such as the work load becoming insurmountable, people being tired, under extreme stress and losing much enthusiasm. One head teacher said :

Another wrote :

Four teachers wrote to me about the problems of morale in their schools, and subsequent to writing to me, two have withdrawn from the profession. They have acted on the problems that they highlighted. [Interruption.] I want to keep the Chamber informed. I understand that the former Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), is not continuing.

Madame Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman might continue with the proposed legislation before us. If hon. Members are interested, the news is awaiting them outside—or they can approach the Chair.

Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not wish to intervene in the debate, but in the light of the developments, is it possible to arrange, at the earlier possible moment, for a statement to be made? We have been clearly led to believe that there is a prospect of change to the poll tax. If there is to be a change of leadership, may we have the earliest possible statement on what one hopes will be plans for the abolition of the poll tax?

Madam Deputy Speaker : If an application for a statement is made to Mr. Speaker, he will ensure that it is dealt with as early as possible.

Mr. Taylor : I hope that you will accept, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this is not the easiest speech to make.

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