House of Commons Hansard Debates for 28 Nov 1990

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Development Board for Rural Wales Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

8.19 pm

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The purpose of the Bill, as effected by clause 1, is to increase the statutory financial limit for the Development Board for Rural Wales from the present level of £100 million to £175 million. It may assist the House if I explain the background to the limit. The Development of Rural Wales Act 1976 set a limit of £25 million, which was raised to £40 million in 1980 and further increased to its current level of £100 million by the Industry Act 1981. At the end of the current financial year, expenditure counting against the financial limit will be some £90 million. Present forecasts suggest, therefore, that the limit will be reached during the 1991-92 financial year. It is therefore necessary to raise it now so as not to inhibit the development board's contribution to the redevelopment of that region in Wales for which it is responsible.

The development board's key objective is the expansion and diversification of the economy of mid-Wales. Its area covers the district of Ceredigion in Dyfed, Meirionnydd in Gwynedd and all three districts of Powys, Montgomeryshire, Radnorshire and Brecon. The area covers some 40 per cent. of Wales. About 8 per cent. of the Welsh population reside in it and, according to the mid-year estimates, since 1981 the number has risen from 203,100 to the 1988 level of 213,500.

There is little doubt that a winning pace has been set for the economic and social development of mid-Wales. During 1989-90, more than 260,000 sq ft of factory space was allocated, some 50 per cent. of which was taken by businesses already established in mid-Wales. Those projects are expected to create more than 1,000 jobs in the next three years. During 1989-90, just under 140,000 sq ft of factory space was built, and a further 165,000 sq ft is being built under the 1990-91 programme.

Despite the slowdown in the economy, factory allocations in mid-Wales have shown an increase on the first six months of last year. About 57 units, representing 182,074 sq ft of factory space, have been allocated from April to September this year, which compares more than favourably with 49 units totalling 154,624 sq ft in 1989. Those allocations are expected to create 680 jobs in the next three years.

The chairman of the development board, Mr. Glyn Davies, said at the presentation of the half-yearly report in October :

"There is still encouraging growth in the region, with many companies forging ahead with expansion plans, supported by the Development Board's attractive grants and loans."

I understand that inquiries for factories are significantly higher than last year.

The development board holds some 473 factories--1.9 million sq ft--and has sold a further 96--1.3 million sq ft. They provide more than 8,500 jobs, in the main for the indigenous population of mid-Wales. About 40 per cent. of the development board's stock has already been sold to the private sector and by 1993-94 it is expected that 47 per cent. of the floor space will have been sold. The board's activity is focused on encouraging and strengthening the private sector within its area. Its economic strategy is contingent on a thriving private

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sector, creating jobs and prosperity. With that in mind, I have taken a particular interest in the launch of the board's recent policy document, "Strategy for the 90s," which contains details of its investment plans for the next three years and its increased commitment to the more remote western half of its area. We can have no doubt about the success of its policy on the eastern side, an area which enjoys a fair degree of prosperity and low unemployment. The Government's approach is to consolidate recent success by helping to build better businesses and to help ensure a better life style for all in the board's area. The result will be a significantly stronger and more diversified economy.

It is appropriate to mention how important it is for there to be continued close co-operation between the board, the Welsh Development Agency, the Welsh tourist board and, of course, local authorities and all public bodies. The development board is particularly keen to build on its achievement and I applaud that approach.

Hon. Members will be aware that there are two major economic challenges in rural areas : first, rural decline and the exodus of population from rural to urban areas ; and, secondly, the difficulty of sustaining communities in the most vulnerable areas. Unless rural Wales can achieve a viable economic base, outward migration of young people will continue. I believe that we are making good progress on that front.

In 1972, on the night of the census, the development board area had a population of 185,000. The 1988 mid-year estimates show that the population in the area is now 213,000, which is an increase of 15.2 per cent. That increase coincides with the development of the board's policies since its creation in 1977. However, the Minister of State and I are well aware of the continuing difficulties with the loss of young people from the area, continuing depopulation of the most remote rural areas and the challenge of a worsening age structure, with high dependency ratios and a relatively high proportion of people of pensionable age. Without continued net inward migration, the population of mid-Wales would not be able to replace itself. Our policies help to create an environment in which young people can find new jobs in manufacturing industry, tourism and the service industries, providing a much greater diversity of employment opportunities. Such achievements help the creation of a much-improved quality of life for local people as well as attracting inward investment. All that helps to create a new confidence in the region. There is little doubt that entrepreneurship has been cultivated and is beginning to flourish in rural Wales.

Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend) : The Secretary of State seems to have moved from the challenges facing the Government in rural mid-Wales without referring to the difficulties being experienced in agriculture, which have become more pronounced since the development board considered its strategy for the 1990s. What new account will be taken of those agriculture difficulties, and will the Secretary of State refer to them in his speech?

Mr. Hunt : I certainly will. I assure the hon. Gentleman that agriculture as an industry is vital for the whole of Wales. However, that is not part of the work of the

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Development Board for Rural Wales ; it is very much the concern of the Welsh Office and its Agriculture Department. It is part of an overall picture. There must be a continuing welding together of policies in this important area if we are to ensure the continued revival of the rural areas of Wales. I agree with the hon. Gentleman in that respect.

There is little doubt that entrepreneurship has been cultivated and is beginning to flourish in rural Wales. I was pleased that last year nearly 700 people took part in the development board's "Getting into Business" courses operated through the network of seven local business centres. Some 5,300 inquiries were handled, 2,000 of which were from new clients. It is estimated that about 400 new businesses were formed in 1989-90.

It was just over a year ago that the development board launched its western initiative with the determination to ensure that the prosperity, employment and business confidence seen so clearly on its eastern side should be spread to the more rural areas on its western side.

Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow) : My right hon. Friend mentioned the board's success in improving circumstances in the eastern part of Wales. Does he concede that some of the problems which he described as coming within his responsibility exist in parts of England adjoining Wales? The effect of the assistance that he can give to enterprises in Wales can impinge, sometimes seriously, on enterprises in England which do not have access to the same funds. Perhaps my right hon. Friend can give some comfort on that point.

Mr. Hunt : I wish that I could give my hon. Friend comfort, but this is a matter not for me but for my right hon. Friends in England. Tonight we are addressing the problems of rural Wales, not those of Ludlow and other adjoining parts of England. My hon. Friend's point is a matter for another occasion, but I recognise that he has had an opportunity to draw attention to the importance always of looking at the overall impact of policies such as those that we are purusing in Wales and their impact on adjoining areas of England. I sympathise with my hon. Friend, but I hope that he will understand if I cannot answer his point.

The development board therefore diverted some £1 million of its existing resources to its areas on the western edge of Brecknock, Radnorshire and Montgomeryshire, as well as the whole of Meirionnydd and Ceredigion. The initiative has many strands including the allocation of more staff by the development board, the creation of more business premises, enhanced promotional marketing of the areas, and the intensification of the business start-up and business growth programmes, including the opening of a satellite office in Machynlleth staffed by Welsh speakers and offering business advice. I am encouraged by the progress which has already been made and we need now to consolidate and build on this impressive start. The development board has prepared a special rural action programme which will enable the work of the western initiative to be carried forward with increased factory construction and economic and rural support measures. I have been convinced by the quality of the case put forward by the chairman and members of the development board and have, therefore, in addition to a £400,000 increase in baseline provision, agreed that an extra £1 million will be available in 1991-92 for the special

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rural action programme. The budget contribution from the Welsh Office to the board will now rise from £12.7 million to £14.1 million--an 11 per cent. increase in its budget.

Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) : I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making that announcement at the start of the debate. Will he confirm that this is new and additional funding to the board and that it is not a recycling of promises made earlier?

Mr. Hunt : I always have difficulty when I am asked about recycling of promises made earlier because I have been Secretary of State for Wales for only six months. So far as I am concerned, this is extra money for these plans next year over this year and I hope that it will give an extra boost to the special rural action programme.

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : Will the right hon. Gentleman give us a breakdown some time tonight as to where the money will go and how much of it is new money?

Mr. Hunt : As I explained, there will be an increase in the total resources for the Development Board for Rural Wales from £12.7 million to £14.1 million--an 11 per cent. increase. I believe that that will be more than enough to cope with the board's objectives. I have identified one aspect--the special rural action programme--but I should be happy to give the hon. Gentleman any further facts and statistics later.

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West) : The Minister made it clear that he was not responsible for the actions of his predecessor. Will he reflect on the unfortunate acronym for the rural action programme, where he is inviting people to take the RAP? Will he give us some guarantee that these action programmes are in line with modern thinking and that they will be environmentally friendly? It is important that any new agriculture programmes are benign towards the environment.

Mr. Hunt : I have two points to make in answer to the hon. Gentleman. First, I take full responsibility for the actions of my predecessors--although not those going back beyond 1979--and I am not seeking to avoid responsibility. I was merely being a little cautious in response to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas), which I think was justified in the light of experience. I was extra-cautious so that I did not miss some comment that might have been made before I became Secretary of State for Wales. Secondly, on RAP, of course I shall bring the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the attention of those who administer the programme. It is important that we relate such programmes to modern-day circumstances and requirements.

I confirm that I shall take a close and great interest in the development board's package of measures designed to help the western part of the region. I am certainly confident that, in using this "fine brush" technique, the development board will be able to achieve greater success.

The board's primary objective is the creation of a self-sustaining economy and this is being achieved by providing an ever-widening manufacturing base to create high-quality jobs which can complement the quality of life in terms of culture, language and the scenic beauty of mid-Wales.

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I should like to return to the comments by the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) about agriculture. Yesterday, I was with several hon. Members who attended the Royal Agricultural Society's winter fair. I had the opportunity to say some words about agriculture. I reaffirm how vital is the provision of a healthy agricultural economy in Wales. It underpins the economic, social and environmental structure of Wales.

I think that you would be quick to point out, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we are dealing with the Development Board for Rural Wales, not with agricultural policy ; but, in so far as you allow hon. Members to raise points relating to agriculture, I shall--with the leave of the House--try to respond to them at the end of the debate. I urge the House to support the Bill, so that the development board can continue its fine work and achieve the objectives that the Government have set it.

8.39 pm

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : I welcome the extra £1 million. It can, I think, be defined as new money ; we shall hear confirmation of its newness later if the Secretary of State catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, and perhaps also learn for what purposes it will be earmarked.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman's identification of the major problems--not least rural decline, the exodus and the difficulty of sustaining communities. The former chairman, Mr. Leslie Morgan, did some very good work, and I think that rural Wales will also miss the work of Dr. Iain Skewis, whom I knew for many years. I understand that the new chairman is making himself very accessible, and trying to be helpful to Members. Much good work has been done and is still being done, and we shall continue to support and encourage the board in the same way as the right hon. Gentleman.

I remind the House that it was a Labour Government who enacted the legislation to set up the board--

Mr. Donald Coleman (Neath) : Will my hon. Friend also remind the Secretary of State that, had it not been for the work of his predecessors before 1979, he would not be at the Dispatch Box this evening, announcing the granting of this welcome new money?

Mr. Jones : My hon. Friend has a long memory ; he is also a skilled parliamentarian. He knows that, when the Bill to set up the Development Board for Rural Wales was in Committee, the attitude of the then Opposition --the right hon. Gentleman's party--was less than encouraging, and the stance and style of the then hon. Member for Pembroke--now Lord Crickhowell --less than welcoming. Perhaps it was the effect of the hot summer ; he was occasionally choleric.

From my perusal of Hansard, I note that members of the Committee included the hon. Members for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) and for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas). Time has passed : some of the others have retired, some have died and some have been ennobled. It was my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), however, who conceived the measure and pushed it through. Perhaps his inspiration was the great Mr. Jim Griffiths.

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Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) : I recollect that the board was conceived in Llandyssul by Viscount Tonypandy, at a particularly difficult time--the time of the 1970 general election.

Mr. Jones : The identification of my former right hon. Friend Viscount Tonypandy with the conception of legislation is indeed apposite. I remember the welcome that the hon. Gentleman gave the measure : he used the word "unique".

The Bill concerns such towns as Blaenau Ffestiniog, Newtown, Welshpool, Llandidrod Wells, Builth Wells, Brecon, Rhyader, Aberystwyth, Penrhyndeudraeth, Llanfyllin, Hay, Crickhowell and Ystradgynlais. These are small, isolated and beautiful towns, and their citizens, whose quality and standard of living we are now to debate, are some of the finest citizens in the British Isles. All is not well ; the position is not exactly as the Secretary of State described it. Given the present rate of increase--on which I agree with the right hon. Gentleman--the £100 million limit will probably be reached in 1991-92. More money is therefore needed if the current plans for the funding of the board next year are to proceed : that is why we are here, and why we want to give a fair wind to the Bill. An increase in the financial limit, however, will not of itself provide any guide to the future level of expenditure or Government funding. I hope that the Secretary of State does speak later, so that we may hear about the various headings under which he intends the new money to be spent.

Page 23 of the annual report draws attention to continued high interest rates, and to the uncertainty of national economic indicators. Page 24 emphasises that the availability of more land that can be developed to meet future needs is an urgent priority ; from my reading of the report, I judge that there is a problem there. It also refers to an acute housing shortage in the area of the board's jurisdiction. Another sobering passage refers to the effects of a tightening economy and to business failures. I feel that I should stress that, given that the Secretary of State chose to present the position in the best possible light--as he is, of course, entitled to do. I hope that the Government can assist the board by meeting these difficult challenges.

Rural Wales needs to hold on to its young people. It needs more, and lasting, job opportunities ; it needs stronger and more diverse businesses ; it needs a better transport infrastructure ; and it demonstrably needs more help from the Government. It needs much more support and much more leadership. I hope that the Bill will mean positive change.

The new money relates to the board's priorities, which should be emphasised again and again. We need to target manufacturing industry--the board refers to "focus development". It also mentions the creation, or maintenance of 1,500 jobs a year. I welcome the news of the new Machynlleth office and the co-operation that has taken place with other bodies ; I also welcome the special action in the west. Those are laudable objectives and I think that the Bill will help to achieve them.

I hope that ministerial financial backing will improve communications in Wales. I see Powys as the bridge between north and south Wales ; without a shadow of a doubt, there is a pressing need for improved road links between north and south. The journey time is appalling, as

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the Secretary of State has found out, and he may agree that the quality of the roads between the two great communities is also unacceptable.

I think that the north-south link militates against bringing the two Wales together. Better road links would mean better social, cultural and economic links. A good link would help to unify Wales and we want more unity there. The country faces many challenges, not least those of 1992, the channel tunnel, the bewildering changes in eastern Europe and the many changes presaged in the Common Market. We need to end the near permanent division of Wales caused by poor communications. A better road would lead to more unity. As the end of the century draws near and after the receipt of £87 billion worth of North sea oil revenue, we still have not improved the communications between north and south Wales. That is not good enough. The Secretary of State should devise a strategy as soon as possible.

I also hope that the Bill will help the many low-paid workers in rural Wales. Rural Wales has a low pay problem every bit as bad as that in the industrialised south and north of Wales. Powys is the heart of rural Wales and I am sorry to tell the House that it has the highest proportion of very low paid manual workers in Wales. The House will not like the statistics that I have obtained from the Library's research division. They show that the average gross normal weekly earnings of workers in Powys was £220, compared with a Welsh average of £258 and a national average of £295. The Library statistics show that the average for Powys was the lowest among the Welsh counties.

Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnor) : Is it not odd that over the past five years the Welsh Office statisticians have been unable to publish the figures and the hon. Gentleman had to go to the Library to get them to expose the low wages in Powys?

Mr. Jones : I warmly agree with the hon. Gentleman. So far as these matters are concerned, the extreme modesty of the Welsh Office is curiouser and curiouser. In April 1990, 36 per cent. of male employees in Powys earned under £180 a week compared to 26 per cent. in Wales and 19 per cent. in Great Britain as a whole. The situation is even worse than that. Only 12 per cent. of male employees in Powys earned more than £320 compared to 22 per cent. for Wales as a whole and 31 per cent. in Great Britain. The ratio for Powys was the lowest among the Welsh counties.

Among full-time male employees reporting normal weekly hours, the average hourly earnings in Powys were £5.18 in comparison to the Welsh average of £5.95 and the national average of £6.89. Again, the figure for Powys was the lowest among the Welsh counties. The Government have had almost 12 years of office and those incredible statistics have had to be dragged out of them. That is a disgrace. I hope that the Government Front- Bench spokesman will respond to that and tell us what policies the Government will follow.

Mr. Gill : Would the hon. Gentleman care to highlight the other significant figure which he obviously has not obtained from the Library, which is that the community charge in Powys will be about £170, compared with £310 in the adjoining county which it is my privilege to represent?

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Mr. Jones : That was an asinine and unwelcome intervention. The poll tax is hated in Wales. It has been rejected. Many people in mid-Wales have been hit greatly by the imposition of the poll tax. The Welsh people realise that a Conservative Government have imposed that unjust tax on our people.

Mr. Gill : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Jones : No, sit down.

The rural economy faces immense challenges in the short term as a result of the Government's economic mismanagement and in the longer term from the uncertain future facing farming. The upland farmer needs urgent help. He faces a genuine and deepening crisis. Does anything in this legislation offer help to the upland farmer? He struggles alone with his family in an inhospitable climate at considerable altitude for little profit, but with much physical hard work. Those farmers can only raise sheep. There is no alternative. The National Farmers Union and the Farmers Union of Wales have told me about the plight of their members. I have met them and they were convincing. If that farming community does not receive help, it will be bankrupt. If the family farm folds, so will the village garage, the village shop, the village school, the village surgery and the village carrier. Communities in that part of Wales which are centuries old are now at risk. This is an unhappy time and for once perhaps the poetry of R. S. Thomas may be appropriate. Certainly "bitter is the taste".

Will this legislation spark an imaginative and practical response from the Government? So far the Government have been lethargic and evasive on those issues. This debate is about a way of life, a culture, a language and a landscape which are at risk and under severe pressure. As the common agricultural policy is dismantled, Welsh Office Ministers should produce a regime to sustain the upland population.

Why has the Secretary of State not been to Brussels to fight his corner for those communities? When my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon was Secretary of State, he went, did his best and was successful. I remember my journey to Brussels with the then Minister of Agriculture, the late Mr. John Silkin. We were also successful and we kept the milk marketing board in being. How sorry I am to see the predicament facing the Secretary of State. He backed the wrong horse in the leadership stakes. Clearly he has been under the spell of his still substantial colleague, the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), the former Secretary of State. Perhaps his colleague threw some dust in his eyes or gave him one of the many press releases that he produced when he was Secretary of State. I am sorry to note the right hon. Gentleman's predicament. I remind him that yesterday he said :

"The best person has won and we are all united behind John Major". I should like the right hon. Gentleman to set the record straight because the Western Mail states :

"Mr. Poll Tax Hunt backs Heseltine".

That was one day, but the next day the right hon. Gentleman said that the best person had won. Well, has the best person won? The Secretary of State and his team did not vote for the best man--

Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd) : Order. We can all have a little fun with these matters, but

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the hon. Gentleman is straying a long way from the Bill. I am very tolerant, but I am sure that he will come back to his text.

Mr. Barry Jones : A charmingly made point, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall obey your silken stricture and conclude simply by saying, "O ye of little faith," in the knowledge that other right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak.

My criticism is not of the board. It is doing its job effectively and with dedication. My criticism is of the ministerial team. Clearly, there is a lack of direction and, because of the Ministers, rural Wales is missing out at a time of crisis. Farming is facing major challenges. The employment scene is fragile. The schools service, the health service and the transport service are all buckling under the intense pressure. The poll tax is proving oppressive to our people. It is blighting their lives. The Bill is a stark reminder that Ministers must face up their responsibilities. I insist that they devise a strategy that will lead to success in rural Wales. I want them to give a lead, but so far they have failed.

9 pm

Mr. Keith Raffan (Delyn) : The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) should know all about backing the wrong horse. He was the parliamentary private secretary to the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Mr. Raffan : Exactly. I could not agree with you more, Madam Deputy Speaker and I am delighted to hear that. That was my one sentence on the subject. I could not resist the temptation of knifing the hon. Gentleman good and proper.

I shall speak only briefly, because my constituency is not covered by the Development Board for Rural Wales. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) for the dispensation so generously given. My excuse for making this brief speech is that, together with other hon. Members present in the Chamber, as a member of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs I have, on several occasions, taken oral evidence from the DBRW. I join the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside in paying tribute to its previous chairman, Mr. Leslie Morgan, and to Dr. Iain Skewis, who is a fellow Scotsman. We are everywhere in Wales. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman agrees that Scotsmen do such good work in the Principality. I pay tribute also to Mr. Glyn Davies, the new chairman of the DBRW.

I shall refer later to the Select Committee hearings of 9 May 1988 at Powys castle, which the hon. Members for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livsey) and for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy will remember. That was the first time that I met Mr. Glyn Davies, who was then the chairman of the finance committee on Montgomeryshire district council. He is an impressive character, who has been extremely energetic in his post as chairman of the development board.

I want to outline the problem of how we define "rural Wales", a problem which arose again and again in the Select Committee. The DBRW has a synonym --it is the acronym MWD--because the Development Board for Rural Wales is also known as Mid Wales Development.

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Indeed, the previous chairman consistently referred to that body as Mid Wales Development, but the Bill is entitled the "Development Board for Rural Wales Bill".

In those Select Committee hearings at Powys castle on 9 May 1988, Mr. Leslie Morgan, the then chairman, made it clear that he preferred being described as the chairman of Mid Wales Development. He did not regard that organisation as purely a rural body because he would then be faced with an odious comparison as the country cousin of the Welsh Development Agency. Mr. Morgan wanted his organisation to be seen as a regional development agency. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will address the real problem of defining rural Wales because there is confusion. The DBRW's boundaries are not and cannot be as clear as those of the Highlands and Islands Development Board in Scotland. Some of the worst unemployment spots in rural Wales lie outside the boundaries of the board. That means that rural areas outside the DBRW boundary do not have equal treatment when compared with the rural areas within it.

There are two ways of dealing with that problem. One way is to review the boundaries of the board. In hearings of the Select Committee the previous chairman said that he was keen that there should be a detailed review of its boundaries. I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State seriously to consider that. The chairman was keen to see the boundaries reviewed, provided that his resources would be increased as the boundaries were extended. He was not keen to see his boundaries extended if his resources remained the same.

I have read a document, which I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has seen, produced by the Institute of Welsh Affairs. The institute does some valuable studies not only for Members of Parliament but for everybody in the Principality. It has produced an interesting study entitled "Rural Wales". It tackled the definition of the rural parts of the Principality. I shall not go into that in too much detail, but basically, although it is a statement of the obvious, the document classed rural Wales as "excluding industrial or urban South Wales and North-East Wales, whilst using district council boundaries to delineate rural Wales." The institute preferred to use district council boundaries because that allowed the use of official statistics, which clearly are important. It defined rural Wales as :

"Colwyn, Glyndwr and Rhuddlan in Clywd"--

I was somewhat surprised at the inclusion of Rhuddlan, but I go along with it because the institute has studied the matter much more than I have--

"Dyfed except Llanelli plus Gwynedd and Powys."

If we are to stick to a definition of the DBRW as representing rural Wales, we must consider a review of the boundaries. If not, the way in which the Welsh Development Agency deals with rural Wales must be reviewed. That is important because, as the then chairman of the board, Leslie Morgan, said in a hearing two years ago implying a criticism of the performance of the Welsh Development Agency : "It requires an act of will and decision from the WDA to determine that it will do more in its rural areas."

I represent a constituency which is predominantly urban, although it appears rural. A good two thirds of my electorate reside in towns. However, we have many of the problems that confront rural areas more severely. As my

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right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will know, we have experienced one particular problem recently. I pay tribute to him for his quick help and speedy action following the proposal to close the Laura Ashley factory at Leeswood. [Interruption.] I should be grateful if the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside, having opened the debate, would listen to the speeches. It would be polite if, instead of chatting to the hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek), he would listen to what I have to say. I am making a constructive point. It is not a party point. I am not making a party political broadcast, as he did. I am seeking to contribute to the debate on rural Wales. I believe that it is valuable. He is good at plagiarising. Who knows?--he might put my ideas in his next manifesto.

Now that I have the attention of the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside, I refer him to the Laura Ashley closure at Leeswood. I am particularly grateful that he is paying attention because, of the 330 who were made redundant at the factory, more than half are resident in his constituency, as he will be aware. That is why I was rather surprised that he was chatting and not paying attention. I should have thought that he would be worried about electors in his constituency being made unemployed.

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for what he did in the event of the closure. He moved speedily. He got in touch with the Welsh Development Agency chairman, Dr. Gwyn Jones, whom I subsequently met to see what could be done to help the area. Although only about a third of the employees were resident in my constituency, one relatively small community, Leeswood--a former mining village--had 62 residents employed there. When 62 people in a relatively small community lose their jobs it hits the community hard.

My worries about the overlap and lack of clear definition of the roles of the Development Board for Rural Wales and the Welsh Development Agency are illustrated in examples such as that of the Laura Ashley closure. Expertise in dealing with rural affairs lies predominantly with the Development Board for Rural Wales. It is particularly good at and has a long experience and history of establishing starter units in rural areas to tackle rural unemployment, which can hit small communities hard. I am not certain that the same kind of expertise exists within the WDA. I am not seeking to criticise the agency, which does a good job in many ways, but hon. Members such as myself, whose constituencies are not covered by the development board, are concerned.

We believe that the constituencies of the hon. Members for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livsey), for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells), for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) and the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile)--I am sorry that the hon. and learned Member is not present, but I am sure that he has good reason to be absent on this important occasion for his

constituency--which are covered by the DBRW, have two bites of the cherry in terms of industrial development in their areas and the steps that can be taken to tackle rural unemployment and depopulation. Those of us whose constituencies contain rural areas, but which are not covered by the board, do not have the opportunity to enjoy such two-tier treatment.

Dr. Thomas : I am following the speech of the hon. Gentleman with great interest, especially his analysis of the interface between the two agencies and the fact that the WDA has a rural arm. What is the hon. Gentleman's

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thinking in terms of medium and long-term development? Does he envisage that the DBRW will take in the whole of rural Wales, as normally defined by the Welsh Office, or does he believe that the rural arm of the WDA will take over from the DBRW?

Mr. Raffan : The hon. Gentleman sat next to me in the Select Committee and he will recall that I was somewhat anti the DBRW because of the two-tier treatment meted out to the rural areas that it covered which meant that they had an advantage in comparison with the rural areas outside its boundaries. Often, these are the rural areas with the highest unemployment. They do not have the advantage of the two-tier treatment. I was leaning towards the view that the DBRW conferred an unfair advantage, but the hon. Gentleman knows that I am never dogmatic and I am open to persuasion and good argument--usually such good argument comes from the Benches behind the Opposition Front Bench.

I hope that my right hon. Friend will be in office for a long time, as it is important that he should tackle the issue of the boundaries of the DBRW and what the WDA does to help rural areas.

The Laura Ashley closure at Leeswood revealed that there was no clear strategy on the part of the WDA to deal with the problem, but the closure had a great impact on that small rural community. There were two options available to deal with it. The first was to open starter units close to the village community and the second to develop one or two larger units of between 10,000 and 15,000 sq ft at the Nercwys road industrial park estate near Mold, some miles away. Laura Ashley was a great boon to one rural area of my constituency, but perhaps its location was not the most advantageous for that company. Nevertheless, it was an important source of employment to the rural community. I accept, however, that there is no point having starter units close to the village if they are not filled. The strategy of the WDA appears to favour larger units in industrial estates or business parks closer to the towns rather than developing starter units closer to villages. Certainly the DBRW has greater experience of developing such nursery units near villages. This debate should be about getting to grips with such problems. I am proud of the fact that I am occasionally labelled a corporatist, I am not a socialist or a crypto-socialist, but certainly I am a corporatist. I would not dream of applying to my right hon. Friend a label of which he was not proud, but the way in which the Government have pursued their policies in Wales is something from which the rest of the country can learn a great deal. That is especially apparent in my constituency where, in the past two years, unemployment has dropped dramatically by 56 per cent. That is a measure of the success of our policies.

I pay tribute to the work done by the DBRW. I do not think that, simply because of the success of its work, it should take over every rural area of Wales, but its boundaries should be reviewed in detail. The definitions used by the Institute of Welsh Affairs are a good starting point and worthy of further examination by my right hon.Friend. I also look to my right hon. Friend for a reassurance that the rural arm of the WDA and its efforts in rural districts are not overlooked, but developed. That sector of the WDA's work should not be allowed to grow stale or stagnate. It is important for those of us in parts of

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Wales not covered by the DBRW that the rural arm of the WDA is active, vigorous and innovative. I hope that my right hon. Friend will pay heed to what I have said.

I also hope that we can develop this debate on a future occasion. We have few Welsh debates on the Floor of the House but perhaps we can develop this discussion in the Welsh affairs debate on 1 March next year. There are important issues for the Principality, for my constituents who are not covered by the DBRW as much as for constituents of Opposition Members who are.

9.16 pm

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