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Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : I welcome the Bill and the marginal additional spending power that it provides for the Development Board for Rural Wales which, over the years, has done some good work. As the Secretary of State said in his opening remarks, it covers 40 per cent. of Wales's land mass, but only 8 per cent. of its population. Sheep outnumber people by 20 to one. The Bill comes before us on the first day of a new Prime Minister's term of office and at a time when the country is moving deeper into recession, with Wales, as usual, at the sharp end. The additional scope for the Development Board of Rural Wales is a mere flea bite, welcome though it is.
We must face the fact that the unhappy state of the British economy has a major detrimental effect on rural Wales. In housing, mortgage rates stand at about 14.5 per cent.--an extraordinarily high rate that is way above that which ordinary people living in mid-Wales can afford. Is it any wonder that young people pack up and go? Empty houses are left for better-off people, usually from across the border, who often turn them into holiday homes and, in the process, Welsh culture and language are undermined. The solution to that problem lies in the Government's hands and, presumably, they are at least recognising the problem by giving this small extra funding for the Development Board for Rural Wales.
Some people cross the border into mid-Wales as permanent residents. They should be given a traditional Welsh welcome, but I get a bit nauseated when some of them start bellyaching when their children are taught Welsh at school. Surely that is what they should expect when they come to live in Wales.
Rural Wales has tended to rely on agriculture which, over the years, has shed many jobs. Consequently, the depopulation of that region has been quite dramatic. From 1891 to 1981, the population of mid-Wales fell by 23,500, whereas the total population of Wales in the same period increased by 1 million. The mid-Wales population decreased from 12.6 per cent. of the Welsh population in 1891 to only 7.2 per cent. in 1981. That shows a fall in absolute and relative terms.
The big issue of jobs is essentially what the rural development board is all about. I said earlier that the board had done some good work. For instance, since 1977 it is reckoned to have created 12,000 much-needed jobs. However, Mr. Glyn Davies, the board's chairman, recently said that the prosperity of mid-Wales would be determined by the success or otherwise of the United Kingdom economy as a whole. The single European market and the channel tunnel will also play an important part. My guess is that both will tend to increase the
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regional imbalance in Britain. In that sense, they are likely to aggravate the problems of mid-Wales. There must be Government support to counteract such tendencies.Let us look at what has been happening to the Welsh economy as a whole. According to the most recent official figures, manufacturing investment in Wales has fallen by more than 19 per cent. in the past decade and over the same period regional preferential treatment has been cut by £166 million. Is it any wonder that unemployment in Wales is still 6.7 per cent. of the work force, even on the basis of the Government's adulterated figures? In mid-Wales, the partial collapse of Laura Ashley has not helped. Equally, the decision to move the headquarters of that company from mid- Wales will not help to engender confidence in the area.
The new Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, clamped down on the economy, and that has had evil side effects. For example, in the past year business failures in Wales have increased by 4 per cent. That is a spectacular rise. Further evidence of the regional imbalance affecting mid-Wales can be seen in living standards. The official figures show that, although Wales has had a 3 per cent. increase in living standards over the past 10 years, that is only one ninth of the increase that has occurred in Greater London. What a contrast.
Most indicators show that Wales is at a disadvantage compared with other regions of Britain. However, when my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) speaks about some of those basic facts, he is accused of spreading doom and gloom. I do not agree with such accusations against my hon. Friend. He should be congratulated on exposing the real situation in Wales.
The infrastructure in mid-Wales is sadly lacking, and that is one of the principal causes of poverty and depopulation. The rural development board does not have the funds to do much about that, but the Government, through the Welsh Office, can improve matters. British Rail is reluctant to electrify main line services to Wales and passengers on our rural lines suffer deplorable conditions. In mid-Wales, British Rail seems to use everybody's cast-off rolling stock. The Government should show that they care about our rural communities by being prepared to subsidise transport services. The eastern towns of mid-Wales, such as Newtown and Welshpool, are fairly close to the motorway network, which gives them an advantage. In the 1960s and 1970s, the concentration was on building the M4--what we would do without it today, I do not know. In more recent years, road building for Wales has tended to focus on the A55, the north Wales coastal road. In future, we should pay more attention to north-south road links which could do nothing but good for mid-Wales. The Minister will be aware that I tabled a spate of questions on this matter. The Western Mail, the daily newspaper circulating in Wales, has campaigned on this issue. The road network between the north and the south is a relic from the horse-and- cart age.
We are told that the demand is just not there, and that the number of journeys travelled do not justify such large-scale public expenditure. I feel that people do not make the journey between north and south because the facilities are so poor. For example, I am fond of Llandudo as a resort ; it is a wonderful place. However, I do not go
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there as often as I would wish because journeys from south Wales are so difficult. Some do not wish these major road improvements, which could so benefit Wales, to be made. The same people expressed opposition to the second Severn crossing. They have what I would call a ghetto mentality, but I find their attitude detrimental not only to mid-Wales but to the interests of Wales as a whole.I have only recently returned from a visit to Patagonia, which reminded somewhat of mid-Wales. It was fascinating to hear the Welsh language still being spoken. Some of the traditional Welsh chapels were thriving-- Tabernacle, Moriah, Bethel and so on. People out there have put up a tremendous fight to keep the Welsh language and culture. In Wales as a whole, we must fight for our fair share of the cake. If we achieve this, we shall be in a better position to fight for the Welsh language and culture. I support the Bill. Minimal though it is, at least it is a small step in the right direction. 9.27 pm
Mr. Richard Livesy (Brecon and Radnor) : In supporting the Bill, I begin by paying tribute to the late Emrys Roberts, the first chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales, who sadly, passed away two months ago. He did sterling work in starting up the board and he was a former Liberal Member of Parliament for Merioneth. He has been followed by Mr. Leslie Morgan and now Mr. Glyn Davies, an energetic chairman of the development board, who is using his time extremely well.
I am particularly interested in the development board because I was brought up in rural Wales in the development board area. I think that I am right in saying that I and the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) are the only two hon. Members who have been in the Chamber tonight who have been depopulated out of mid-Wales. That is not a pleasant experience. I was away from the area for 14 years, and when I returned the development board was operating there and starting to do good work.
I gently chide the Secretary of State on his figures for population expansion. I recommend that there should be research into those figures in order to show what is happening to school leavers. I believe that a considerable exchange of population is taking place in mid-Wales with some of our most youthful people leaving and many retired people coming in, giving us an unbalanced population in terms of its age.
Only last weekend, a young lad of 19 told me that he had applied for a job with the local council in my area. Brecon has only 3 per cent. unemployment, an extremely good figure, but 72 people, mostly youngsters, applied for that job. I know from personal experience that many people have to leave because they cannot find a job. The statistics conceal a problem. I hope that the universities will be able to investigate further to see exactly what is going on. I know that there is a project to study what happens to school leavers in mid-Wales and their attitudes.
I welcome the aggregate increase of resources for the board. Looking at the board's annual report and accounts, it is noticeable that in 1986 expenditure was £12.4 million and in 1990 it was scheduled to be £12.9 million. I am pleased that the Secretary of State has announced that that will be increased to £14.1 million. At least that is some progress.
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Mr. Coleman : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the announcement that the Army is to leave his area means that the development board will be extremely important, because that move will cause considerable problems?
Mr. Livsey : That is an extremely important point. The Army has headquarters in Brecon and it looks likely to be demoted. I have written to the Secretary of State about that. We do not wish to see any reduction in the staff at the Army headquarters at Brecon. I hope that the Secretary of State will campaign to ensure that a major general still commands the forces at HQ Wales and that there is no reduction in status. In that respect, we deserve a similar status to Scotland. The Sennybridge range of 30,000 acres is one of the largest training areas in Wales and in the United Kingdom. Troops returning from Hong Kong and elsewhere could well be accommodated in camps in Wales such as Cwrt-y-gollen camp in Crickhowell.
I should have liked the Bill to make provision for future expenditure for the board to be increased by statutory instrument. I was told that I could not table an amendment to that effect, but I shall discuss that further in Committee.
I should like to see an extension of the board's remit in two particular areas. It is now becoming painfully obvious that, although those areas were excluded from the board's remit when it was founded, times have changed radically. I am sure that the Secretary of State will have noticed the references to the present general state of agriculture in mid-Wales. The board has said that up to 25 per cent. of the population of mid-Wales is employed in agriculture. In my constituency 18 per cent. of the population is engaged in agriculture in one way or another. The present depression in agriculture and the reduction in incomes is forcing young people out of the family farms. We must address that problem. We need more marketing. I was at the winter fair yesterday, to which the Secretary of State referred when dealing with his worthwhile initiative for food from Wales. It is important to give the development board more resources to increase abattoir and meat packing capacity. Wales has only three abattoirs that meet EEC standards, whereas there are 20 in Scotland. That is a serious shortfall when one considers 1992 and the European single market, and the ability of Welsh farmers to market lamb efficiently and effectively in proper packs. They must compete properly in the supermarkets of not only Britain but France, Germany, elsewhere in Europe, and even Japan--which the Secretary of State visited recently.
Mr. Raffan : I strongly endorse the hon. Gentleman's point about abattoirs in the Principality. There is strong feeling on that aspect among the farmers in my community whom I met recently. New abattoirs would also generate additional employment, and the Government should look at that matter quickly.
Mr. Livsey : I thank the hon. Gentleman for his support, which the Secretary of State would find widely echoed throughout Wales. The farming community is particularly exposed in the market place at this time. They compete only as individuals, and about 45 per cent. of the British retail market is controlled by five supermarket groups. That does not put farmers in a very good bargaining position. They need to co-operate, and to establish new abattoirs.
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I was particularly disappointed when an application to build a new abattoir at Three Cocks did not come to fruition. There were problems about the land, whose owners were not prepared to sell. I understand that the Welsh Office and the development board were able to put up only 30 per cent. of grant aid support. It is well known that on the continent, and in France in particular, grant aid for abattoirs can be as high as 50 per cent., which makes a crucial difference. I shall be grateful if the Secretary of State will closely examine that aspect, to see how the board can assist more in the building of new abattoirs, especially before 1992.Mr. Alan W. Williams (Carmarthen) : The same point was forcefully made by National Farmers Union members in my constituency when I met them in September. They pointed out that Wales would be left in 1992 with only three abattoirs conforming to European standards. Meat processing is a sensible industry in rural areas because of the value-added employment that it offers. Also, rather than export our live sheep in the cruel conditions under which they are transported to the French markets, it would be much more sensible to slaughter them here and then export them as processed meat products.
Mr. Livsey : The hon. Gentleman reinforces my argument, and mentions also the important issue of live exports. Our industry will come under increasing pressure in that respect.
Under present conditions, farming families need to boost their incomes. I know of a number of recent cases in which the single son of a family farm has had to leave the business to find employment elsewhere--not just 10 miles away but hundreds of miles from home. The development board should consider providing part-time jobs to boost the incomes of farming families. Members of the family could work away from the farm two or three days a week, in order to supplement their incomes and to preserve family farms.
The other aspect that the development board has not considered is tourism. That is not in its remit either, but I should like it to be taken into account, and perhaps considered in the future. Affordable housing is an enormous problem, as other hon. Members have pointed out. The average value of a house in my constituency often turns out be about £60,000, whereas the mortgage that can be obtained on average earnings in the local community is about £20,000. That means that it is impossible for someone on an average wage in my constituency to purchase a house.
Rented accommodation has virtually dried up. Although the development board is doing good work in terms of housing for key workers, it is especially frustrating for young people to see houses that are often empty for up to two years before they can be occupied--it can be a great heartache for them.
The development board programme has been outlined and it plans for the maintenance of 1,500 jobs per year. I note the chairman's statement that 1,000 jobs will be created in the next three years. That will not be adequate to retain a larger part of of the school leaving population, and we need to consider that.
We need to assist young entrepreneurs in central Wales. One of our problems is that we do not have enough home-bred industry. I remember my mother telling me when I was in my early 20s, "There is nothing here for you,
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my boy. You'll have to go away to earn a decent living". The situation has changed, but there are still too many service industries and too much local government employment compared to employment in businesses. We must encourage young entrepreneurs who are born and bred in mid-Wales. The present strategy can be improved.I note from the report that approximately 18 towns in mid-Wales have been concentrated on to encourage growth, but it needs to spread further afield. I welcome the development board's western initiative. However, we have to spread out into some of the smaller communities and villages to balance employment.
The remarks that have been made about poor infrastructure are very important. I measured my constituency on the mileage clock of my car the other day. I started from Ystradgynlais and ended at the top of the Teme valley. I travelled 92 miles--that is a long way on a very poor road system. As other hon. Members have said, the system needs vast improvements.
We need to be geared up into a higher-waged economy. Wages in the eastern part of the area are too low. Unemployment has been brought down, although there is still a problem in the west, but wages remain very low. Far too many people work for £80 or £100 per week. Averages mean that it is still very much a case of people having their head in the fridge and their feet in the oven. Between those two poles there are bad examples of low wages.
We need to support the development board. There should not be any movement towards co-operating too closely with the Welsh Development Agency. The development board must protect its independence fiercely because it concentrates on rural areas. As the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan) suggested, the case for other areas coming into the development area should be studied carefully. The Welsh Office should appoint a Minister to concentrate on rural areas. After all, they cover a vast area in Wales.
I have been fortunate enough to obtain space in the exhibition area. There will be an excellent exhibition for the development board from 10 to 14 December and there will be a reception on 10 December. I hope that all hon. Members present, including you, Mr. Speaker, and all Welsh Members will come along and see the good work being done by the development board. I am sure that when we next debate the development board we will all wish to increase its funding even further.
9.45 pm
Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) : It is a pleasure to debate rural Wales because we do not often have the opportunity of doing so. I associate myself with what has been said by my colleagues from the region, particularly the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livsey), who spoke of the late Emrys Roberts. As the hon. Gentleman said, he was one of my predecessors as the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. I was able to count on him as a good friend. He played a distinctive role inside the House as a Liberal Member of Parliament and outside it in his enterprise, legal and cultural activities. We remember him particularly as the chairman of the Mid-Wales Development Corporation, a predecessor organisation of the development board.
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It is appropriate to remember the history of the Development Board for Rural Wales because, as the Mid-Wales Development Association, it initiated the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association of Local Authorities, whose leading light was Mr. Peter Garbett Edwards, another great Montgomeryshire Liberal. He is still very much alive and active in development issues as a consultant for Antur Dwyryd, the enterprise agency in north-west Meirionnydd.When the then Government instituted the new towns legislation and brought it into mid-Wales in the new town development corporation, the team at the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association provided the basis from which the Development Board for Rural Wales was established.
I am listing the organisations because I want to make a plea that we should not look for too much tidiness in the way in which statutory agencies operate in rural communities. The hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan) said that at one time he leant towards the idea of a combination of agencies working together. Like many who have a lifelong interest in rural development, I have leaned towards a concept of integrated rural development that produces some sort of line management. After the happy hour that I spent in the Monet exhibition this morning, I tend to take a different approach in terms of broad brushes and concentration. Although different agencies are coterminous and overlap, they can still provide different textures of enterprising and social development activity.
I want an assurance from the Secretary of State--I am sure that he will be able to give it--that the intention is that the Development Board for Rural Wales will continue for as long as the Government continue. I assume from the gentle rhetoric of the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) that a Labour Government--if there were ever to be one--would also continue the activities of the board. There has been loose talk in some quarters about strengthening the rural arm of the Welsh Development Agency. That is important in areas of rural Wales that are outside the territory of the Development Board for Rural Wales. However, strengthening the rural arm of the WDA does not mean reducing the powers of the development board and strengthening the overall activities of Welsh Development international does not mean weakening the development board's marketing role in the United Kingdom and beyond.
Mr. Barry Jones : I make it clear that my party is 100 per cent. behind the Development Board for Rural Wales. Having heard about his broad- brush approach, I hope that the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) will consider the royal collection at the national museum in Cardiff and the Mostyn gallery in Llandudno, where Piper is exhibited. There are good exhibitions in Wales as well as the serial numbers of Monet in Piccadilly.
Dr. Thomas : I was pleased to see one of the Davies collection, "Rouen cathedral", in the Royal academy here. I am an
internationalist, as the hon. Member knows. I am glad to hear his commitment to the future of the DBRW.
I want to consider the interface of agencies. There is not only the WDA and the DBRW--I hope that Hansard will follow all these acronyms--but the Welsh tourist board and the Agricultural Development Advisory Service, which is the authority for redirecting activity and
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diversification in agriculture. Linked with that are the activities of local government economic development officers and, more recently, the enterprise agencies, which are working in the constituency of the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells), which is part of the DBRW area, and in Antur Dwyryd. In addition, there is the activity of large voluntary landowners such as the National Trust and our recently announced Snowdonia appeal, which we hope will bring additional voluntary and private sector funds into the area. There are other agencies that I have not mentioned, but I list those to emphasise that we have a diversity of organisations and that it should be possible to have an approach that maximises their contribution without looking for a simplistic structure. Therefore, we must consider how we can collaborate on working parties and projects in which the various agencies take the lead role. In the context of rural Wales, we look particularly to the western initiative of the board and to the activity of its new offices in Machynlleth, which have been successful in answering queries and stimulating interest. The enterprise culture is developing as a bilingual enterprise culture in that part of the world.We face a number of fairly major crises. In my own patch, there is the future of the energy industry and of the Magnox station at Trawsfynydd. We are still waiting to hear about the extension of the life of that station, which is under the control of the nuclear installations inspectorate. Obviously, we all want to see the maintenance of jobs for as long as possible in environmentally safe conditions, but in the next five or 10 years there will be a major closure involving 600 job losses. Obviously, there will be jobs in decommissioning, which is a complex and difficult technology, but there will be substantial job losses.
We need to plan for that in the same way as we planned for steel and coal enclosures, for which there was a major input of resources. I am aware that Nuclear Electric is not able to do what British Steel and British Coal were able to do, but we need an approach which matches that, and we look for help from the European regional development fund and for further enhancement of DBRW funds. I am sure the local enterprise agency in Antur Dwyryd will have a particular role to play.
We must consider that in terms of a task force and a project-led approach which anticipates and itemises the skills that are already available in the area, encourages people to move into the self-employed or small enterprise sector and seeks co-operative activity. There is a range of possibilities, provided that we are ready in time to anticipate those closures.
I very much endorse what has been said about the need to improve the abattoir facilities in mid-Wales. We must add value to our agriculture produce. I pay tribute to the work of Welsh Lamb Enterprise, which is based in mid-Wales, which has been active in its promotion. We must back that up with investment programmes in abattoir capacity to bring us up to the standard that we need to export our cuts. As I was told when I was last at the Commission talking about these issues, there are still opportunities in the Spanish and Italian lamb markets. Forty per cent. of the German lamb market--there is opportunity for growth--is taken up by New Zealand. That country is not exporting lamb on the hoof to
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Germany, but it prepares cuts so that they are attractive to German housepersons. That is a lesson for us all on how to produce and market our goods.One of the first appearances by the Secretary of State for Wales in his new post was when he dressed as a waiter at a Welsh Lamb Enterprise promotion and wore an apron showing the excellent Lamb Enterprise logo. I know that he is already convinced, so I hope that he will put new money behind his commitment to Welsh lamb.
Mr. Raffan : There is great concern even in the farming community about the number of sheep farmers who contribute towards Welsh Lamb Enterprise. We need to make the farming community much more aware of the need to market its products. It is pretty appalling when one can go into a butcher's shop in a village in my constituency and find three posters advertising New Zealand lamb.
Dr. Thomas : Far be it from me to suggest that the hon. Gentleman should change his butcher.
Mr. Raffan : I did not buy the lamb.
Dr. Thomas : Oh. My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North pays 4p at least per animal. Every other Welsh lamb producer should do the same.
I wish to refer to the interrelationship between what the board does in terms of manufacturing and small-scale enterprise and its more general aim to improve the quality of life in mid-Wales--for example, the social development and infrastructure programmes. In a consultancy capacity, the board has produced ideas and has worked with British Rail and other major agencies to upgrade amenities and the infrastructure.
I pay tribute not only to the late Emrys Roberts but to an amazing friend, John Hughes, who for 13 years was secretary of the board and ended his career as social development director far too young. He was also one of the leading lights of Newtown football club. Halls, football pitches and television reception facilities throughout mid-Wales benefited from the social development programme in which he was involved. I want to ensure that such a programme continues under the board and that there is no reduction in those activities. I do not want any of the board's functions privatised, moved out of Ladywell house and given to consultants from outside the area. There has been concern that, under new management in the board, there may be a tendency to look at ways of moving activities out of house and reducing the interface between the board, as an accountable organisation within the community, and the local community. I want an assurance that the core activities of the board are not privatised. It is not just a factory-building or industrial estate agency, but a social development agency. To return to my impressionist analogy, social development in the countryside is a soft touch technique which relates to the fabric and texture of society.
Dr. Iain Skewis, the board's chief director, was also enthusiastic about soccer tournaments, especially for young people. He brought skills that only a Scots person can bring to the development of mid-Wales. His experience at the Highlands and Islands development board brought into mid- Wales a flamboyant and always straight style. Sometimes he created a bit of a stir in certain local authority planning agencies, but that was all to the good
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because it gave the board a high profile. I should like to pay as handsome a tribute as I can to his work and the time that he devoted to mid-Wales.The new chairman, Gwyn Jones--whom many of us knew in his earlier incarnation as a very active chair of Montgomeryshire district council-- graced the borders of my constituency and Montgomeryshire with a huge, garish sign announcing, "Croeso i Faldwyn" --"Welcome to Montgomeryshire". That was one of his first actions as the council chair, and he has brought the same style to the development board. Wales is blessed with many quangos. A great triumvirate now runs three of the main ones. Wyn Jones, of the Welsh Development Agency, brings his own Hollywood style to the job of running a Welsh quango ; Prys Edwards, of the Welsh tourist board, has brought his own cultural approach to the job--he, too, is always well groomed-- It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
Ordered,
That, at this day's sitting, the Development Board for Rural Wales Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.-- [Mr. Greg Knight.]
Question again proposed, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Dr. Thomas : As I was saying, we have a triumvirate. The third member, Glyn Davies, has also brought his inimitable style to the development board.
In the absence of an elected Government in Wales, we could do a great deal worse. Those people are giving their time to public service, and providing an upbeat image of what goes on in the country. The Opposition parties are not turning a blind eye to the reality of social deprivation and economic problems such as unemployment and low incomes ; we are well aware of those problems. However, we also want to emphasise the good news--not just the positive aspects of Government policy, but the benefits of voluntary activity undertaken by the people. Many are incomers--"born-again Welsh", as I call them--who bring their skills into Wales, making cheese in Dyfed, or honey ice cream in Towyn. I must not leave out Towyn, which contains some of my nicest constituents.
Whatever they may be doing, those people have brought a new energy to Wales. It is all part of the new upbeat attitude. Wales, and mid-Wales in particular, has become a location for inward investment of multinational capital, because of the attractiveness of the area, the skills of the labour force and the existence of a corporate Welsh state--if I may take up the point made by the hon. Member for Delyn. All this is because of the form of selective intervention that we are operating--the combination of public-sector activity on the part of the Welsh Office and the agencies, and the activities of local authorities and the voluntary sector. Some of the workers have been involved in development for 20 or 25 years. Obviously, the interest of multinationals in making relative profits in the location is part of the equation : people locate in Wales not for reasons of charity, but because it makes economic sense.
The reason for all those developments is not only the decision of the multinationals to locate outside the metropolitan centres and to turn to the regions, but the willingness of Wales and its institutions to play the game.
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I pay tribute to the Minister of State, not just because he has been in the Welsh Office longer than the Secretary of State ; he has been involved in every aspect of inward investment, linking that involvement with his work as Minister for rural Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor says that we do not have such a Minister, but the Minister of State must do that job, because of his brief.We are celebrating the provision of new money--I am advised that that is what it is, so I am able to welcome it. I hope that my advisers and those of the Secretary of State agree about that. We also welcome the additional borrowing power, and look forward to a long rolling programme for the board, in collaboration with the other agencies. In that, we will be able to build on the massive contribution of people like the late Emrys Roberts and the late John Hughes.
10.4 pm
Dr. John Marek (Wrexham) : My comments will not be very different in tone from what other hon. Members have said, and I have no intention of voting against Second Reading. The Bill is important for central and rural Wales and the increases provided will be very welcome.
The Development Board for Rural Wales did not get everything right and there were problems with over-expansion in the new towns and the bringing in of too many people from outside the area and outside Wales. As a result, we still have bad housing shortages. Perhaps more attention should be paid to local growth. We have to bring in businesses to help to advance the economy of rural Wales, but we must do that while bearing in mind the local people first and foremost. I was slightly worried by the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones). He said that we need more roads to unify Wales. We certainly need more roads, but I am not sure whether we necessarily need them to unify Wales. It is important to unify Wales, but money is extremely limited. If we are to spend money on roads, as we should, we should do so to help the economy of Wales and to help people who travel to and from Wales and different parts of England and those who travel within Wales. If we unify Wales we will simply have roads between north and south Wales so that local government councillors and officers, Members of Parliament and all sorts of administrators can get into their cars and consume petrol, which is a non-renewable resource, instead of travelling by train. Roads are important. We need better roads from the M4 into Cardiganshire from Carmarthen to Aberaeron or from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. However, the criteria for building those roads must be right. They should not be built because of status or because of a need to unify one part of Wales with another.
Mr. Raffan : I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that he would accept what the previous chairman of the DBRW said--I believe that the present chairman agrees with this--which is that the crucial roads to the local economy of mid-Wales are east-west links rather than north-south links.
Dr. Marek : There is a lot in that. Roads from Aberaeron or Aberystwyth to Carmarthen are important
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because they would join that area to the M4, which runs east to west. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside had that kind of programme in mind.I agree with nearly every point that has been made tonight. Farming is vital to rural Wales. I disagree slightly with the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan). It is not a matter of not buying New Zealand lamb and buying Welsh lamb. Of course we must buy Welsh lamb whenever possible, but we survive as a trading nation. We should be able to compete. Many of us would say that Welsh lamb is better than New Zealand lamb, but we should not try to ban New Zealand lamb. Land in Wales is only good for sheep. Land in New Zealand is certainly good for sheep, too, but the land in other areas like England and France is good for sheep and many other things. If the agricultural system is such that those other things are not produced, the other parts of Europe and especially England, France and Spain might turn to sheep rearing. If that happens, we shall lose out in Wales. That is my great fear.
The Government should be able to regulate the industry so that we are allowed to do the things in Wales that we are best at doing. There is a serious crisis in farming in rural Wales. The Government must consider that carefully and they must fight their corner in the corridors of Brussels on that point.
I am sponsored by the National Union of Railwaymen and want to make two points about the railway connections between Wales and England. Unfortunately, it is no longer possible to make any comments about railway connections between north and south Wales because one has to go into England to make such a connection. There would be nothing wrong with that, provided that the service was good.
The mid-Wales line, from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury, has had a good service, with InterCity rolling stock. The Cambrian coast express leaves Euston at about 3.40 pm and the public can travel all the way through mid-Wales to Aberystwyth in comfortable InterCity rolling stock. The train leaves Aberystwyth at about 7.20 am and travels back to the capital. I understand that that service is to be withdrawn next May. We should be advancing as a nation, not regressing. Central Wales will have to rely on a sprinter service. It can take about two hours 20 minutes to travel from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury, but everybody in central Wales will have to make that journey on a sprinter.
Not many hon. Members--apart from hon. Members representing Wales--realise how difficult it is to get to central Wales. If central Wales is to develop, communications must be good. There is no airfield and the roads need improving. They are not very good and the journey gets worse as one travels by car to London, because the motorway cannot cope with the traffic. We must therefore have a good railway system, but it takes five and a half hours to travel from Aberystwyth to London.
I represent Wrexham and it is easy for me to travel from Wrexham to London. I can do it in two hours 50 minutes by the fastest train. I believe that hon. Members representing the north-west coast can make their journey in even less time. If one travels to Aberystwyth from London, one spends over five hours on a train, yet British Rail is proposing to withdraw the only comfortable service from next May. It is the only service that business men would dream of using. I believe that the Bill could help the
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development board to persuade British Rail to maintain the service. Perhaps the DBRW could even provide some extra funding to help British Rail to do so.Dr. Thomas : I am sometimes accused in the House of speaking for the Government, but I am certainly not speaking for British Rail. My understanding is that British Rail is to introduce rolling stock for the local haul routes similar to that which is available in the highlands of Scotland, which is the super sprinter.
Dr. Marek : The hon. Gentleman may be right and British Rail may introduce the super sprinter--the class 158. Let me disillusion the hon. Gentleman now, because there is no way in which that train will run from Wrexham to Euston. The latest plan is for the train to go via Birmingham to Nuneaton, then on to the overpass at Nuneaton, and to travel to Leicester before proceeding down to St. Pancras. That is a tortuous journey.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : I have been speaking to senior officials of British Rail this morning and I can confirm what the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) has been saying, and that it is British Rail's intention to introduce the 158s, which will provide a better service, from next May. British Rail is also taking a look at all its regional services in Wales with a view to improving them.
Dr. Marek : I hope that we shall have a bipartisan policy on this, because that is what Wales needs if we are to ensure that the service does not deteriorate. The Minister must be aware that the early morning service from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury has been withdrawn and that the last service from Shrewsbury to Chester is also being withdrawn. Furthermore, the area manager for Chester has been told to make cuts of £2 million by next April, which will mean a loss of staff and services. He must know that the Bidston line will be single in perhaps two or three years.
In a friendly way, I warn the Minister to be careful about what British Rail tells him. "Improvements" usually turn out in practice to be cuts in services. Importantly for the development board's area, I am not sure that a class 158 sprinter, however grand, can make up for the loss of an InterCity service direct to Euston. It will be difficult for passengers to know whether to go to Euston or St. Pancras to get a train to Wales. For some services which go through Birmingham they may have to go to Paddington. That is not an improvement.
If we had the money and British Rail had the finance available, Euston could be the one station for passengers travelling between Wales and London. There should be at least one direct train a day between Euston along the electrified line to Shrewsbury and then to Aberystwyth, using InterCity class coaches. That is important. I do not wish to take too long, but I wish to make an equivalent point about the north Wales main line which feeds into Blaenau Ffestiniog, which is an important part of the area of the DBRW. Again, class 47 engines will be withdrawn in one or two years. British Rail has refused to say when, but in practice and according to the proposed timetable, it will be in 1992. It is intended to replace those trains with high-speed trains. Again, the HSTs decanted from the east coast main line will not travel to Euston. They will travel to Nuneaton and thence to Leicester and St. Pancras.
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The trains are expensive to run and have a life of only about eight years. Significantly, when they are introduced, there will be no train leaving Euston for north Wales at about 5 pm--an important time. That will have a serious effect on our infrastructure and transport connections between the north of Wales and Euston. There is a case for electrifying that line, as the Minister and the Secretary of State must know.If the line were electrified, how much would it cost? I am told that it would cost about £60 million. What percentage of that money would be available from Europe? How much money would be available from the European regional development fund? The line will be in a development grant area. How much extra money would be available from the European grant for improving international railway lines connecting different member states of the European Community? The Crewe-Holyhead line is the only such line in Britain. Perhaps the fast line through Kent to the channel tunnel could be another example but certainly north of London the Crewe-Holyhead line is the only one that would qualify for such help.
How many millions of pounds will be available if that line is electrified? Let us suppose that half of the money is available. If the interest on capital employed is 4 per cent., if the cost was £60 million and if half of the money were available from Europe, immediately the interest on the capital employed by British Rail would rise to 8 per cent., which would be above its target. For that reason, British Rail will not electrify the line because it knows very well that, because of the additionality principle, the Government will take the money that it receives from Europe away from its grants in a future year.
So British Rail will rightly say, "We are happy to electrify that line but if we do, the Government will take away the grant so we shall receive only 4 per cent. on the capital employed. There are other areas where the scarce resources would be better employed and we could get a better rate of return on our capital." The result is that there is money sitting in Europe which we could use, but for our silly administrative procedures.
Sir Wyn Roberts indicated dissent.
Dr. Marek : If the Minister believes that I am wrong, I should be happy to let him intervene. I had hoped that the Government would agree that, because of a silly administrative system, we have lost out. Some people say that three quarters of the money would be supplied by Europe for the electrification of the line--£45 million out of £60 million. If that is so, it is a crying shame that that money cannot be used because of administrative procedures followed by the Government.
I do not want to make a party political point about the electrification of the line, but we should unite about it in Wales. We should recognise that money would be given to us, without any strings attached, if we electrified the line.
I hope that I have argued my case sensibly and without acrimony and party political bias. This subject should unite Wales. When we have the ability to use European money, we should do so. We should not let procedures between British Rail and the Government prevent us from
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