House of Commons Hansard Debates for 29 Nov 1990

Mr. William O'Brien (Normanton) : Will the Leader of the House allow a discussion next week in Government time on security and safety at Pinderfields general hospital, in my constituency? On Monday this week, two doctors were murdered in their office at the hospital. It will be difficult to replace them, in their homes and in the service. As my request for a statement could not be agreed to, may we have a discussion on security and safety? If that cannot take place in Government time, will the right hon. Gentleman prevail upon the Secretary of State for Health to make a statement to the House on the question of security and safety at Pinderfields general hospital?

Mr. MacGregor : I am sure that the whole House shares my horror at what happened to the two consultants and would wish to offer sincere sympathy to the relatives of both. I cannot say that I can find time for a debate in Government time next week on these matters. I shall have to discuss with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health whether a statement in that case would be appropriate. Of course, the hon. Gentleman knows that there are other ways in which he can raise these matters.

Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North) : May we have a debate next week on housing finance so that the House can consider the serious abuse of the housing budget by the former Ealing Labour council which is forcing unwarran-ted rent increases on council tenants in Ealing? This is happening because the Labour council totally abused the system, as has been proven. This matter should be brought before the House so that such abuses by the Labour party can be fully examined at local level in Ealing before there is any danger from it at national level.

Mr. MacGregor : My hon. Friend has made his point effectively. I know that he will find other opportunities to make it effectively at local level and national level and to draw attention to any lessons that are to be learnt. I regret that the business of the House is pretty full next week, and I do not see much prospect of debating the matter then.

Mr. Derek Conway (Shrewsbury and Atcham) : Before Wednesday's debate, will my right hon. Friend have a word with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and ask him to place in the Library a comparative chart showing, by local authority area, total spending this year as against last year and comparative manpower levels? That will enable the House to see for itself that the level and unpopularity of the community charge are related to local government overmanning and over expenditure, principally in areas such as Shropshire that are controlled by Labour councillors.

Mr. MacGregor : My hon. Friend makes a good point. The vast bulk of overspending takes place in Labour local authorities. I will draw my hon. Friend's suggestion to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

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British Aerospace Factory, Preston

4.4 pm

Mrs. Audrey Wise (Preston) : I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,

"the projected closure of the major British Aerospace factory at Preston, with enormous job losses of the order of 4,500."

The matter is specific because it relates to one company which is of unique importance to the local economy of the Preston area. If the closure and the redundancies go ahead, it will put a specific blight on my area. Preston borough council calculates the local unemployment could rise from 8 per cent. to as much as 15 per cent. as a direct effect. In addition, there would be a massive indirect effect on many other jobs, including retailing and all the service sector. The matter is important for all those reasons and for the message that is given about British manufacturing when the largest British manufacturing company resorts to closures and to redundancies. The company should instead ensure continued work by making a transition from an over-reliance on arms production to civil aircraft and to other peaceful products, and the Government should help it to do so. It is important that the end of the cold war should be seen as an opportunity to expand civil aircraft production, for example ; it must not become a disaster for my area. The matter is also important because British Aerospace is a reservoir of skills which must not be dissipated.

The matter is urgent because the House should express a view immediately, before decisions become irrevocable. There is an urgent need for the Government, the company and the unions to come together to find a constructive way forward. The unions would do that, but will the company and the Government? Until now the Government have refused to accept any responsibility for reductions in defence employment. A debate would give them the chance to take a new direction, although it is probably over- optimistic to expect them to do so. For the people of Preston, this is a matter of the utmost urgency. They will expect this House to debate the matter immediately.

Mr. Speaker : The hon. Member for Preston (Mrs. Wise) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 20, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that she believes should have urgent consideration, namely,

"the projected closure of the major British Aerospace factory at Preston, with enormous job losses of the order of 4,500."

As the hon. Lady knows, I have to consider the criteria of Standing Order No. 20. I have listened with care to what she has said, but I do not consider that the matter that she has raised is appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 20. I hope that she will have other opportunities to bring the matter before the House.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.

Ordered,

That the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Modification) Order 1990 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Chapman.]

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Orders of the Day

Development Board for Rural Wales Bill

Considered in Committee.

Clause 1

Increase of financial limit

4.9 pm

The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : I beg to move, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The purpose of this single-clause Bill is to raise the present financial limit of the Development Board for Rural Wales from £100 million to £175 million.

During our Second Reading debate last night, there appeared to be some confusion in hon. Member's minds about the precise meaning of the words "financial limit". The function of the financial limit is to limit the public funding of the board so that the scale and nature of its activities can be re-examined by Parliament at regular intervals. The limit has been increased on two occasions--most recently in 1981 to £100 million under section 2(3) of the Industry Act 1981, which amended section 12(2) of the Development of Rural Wales Act 1976.

I should explain that section 12(2) of the 1976 Act set a limit of £25 million. That was raised to £40 million in 1980 and increased to its current level of £100 million by the Industry Act 1981. The financial limit established by the 1981 Act has remained in place by virtue of the fact that some £33 million of the board's national loans fund debt, which at one time counted towards the limit, was written off in 1986. Similar action was taken at the same time in respect of the English new town authorities.

At the current rate of expenditure, the financial limit of £100 million will be reached during the financial year 1991-92. Board expenditure counted against this limit comprises grant in aid, housing subsidies, advances from the national loans fund and other borrowing to finance the board's activities.

When raising a financial limit, it is customary to provide an increase that should suffice for five years. We therefore propose to raise the DBRW's limit from £100 million to £175 million. The Bill specifies a single new limit rather than a two-stage limit with power to implement the higher figure by affirmative order. The latter approach was adopted in the Development of Rural Wales Act 1976, but the Industry Act 1981 removed the higher limit in the 1976 Act on the ground that further financial needs should be provided for in primary legislation rather than by order. The Government regard it is desirable to maintain consistency in this matter.

The main activities of the board are to provide financial assistance to business in the form of grants and loans, to provide sites and premises for industry, to assist in the marketing of the area for tourism and industrial purposes and in product marketing, and to provide advisory services and training. Assistance is available to enterprise in the land, food, craft, manufacturing, tourism and science sectors. In addition to its economic development activities, the development board supports a wide range of social development projects, including the provision of support

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for the Welsh language and its culture and for the construction of houses for letting under the New Towns Act 1965 as amended in 1981.

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : The Minister is kindly fleshing out some of the matters that we discussed last night. Let me ask him a question related to the announcement by the Secretary of State yesterday. He may be able to answer it now. If not, perhaps he will ensure that it is answered later. Is the extra £1 million for the special rural action programme in 1991-92 included in the public expenditure White Paper for 1990 and, if so, under what head?

Sir Wyn Roberts : I shall certainly try to clarify that point. Last night my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was speaking about the new money--Opposition Members are fond of talking about new money-- amounting to £1.4 million which is to be available on top of this year's figure for the board in the coming year.

Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) : We agreed all this last night. My advisers agreed with the Secretary of State's advisers that it was new money. The official Opposition could not work it out.

4.15 pm

Sir Wyn Roberts : I am grateful to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas). It is no wonder that we are such good neighbours. If it will bear repeating, there has been an increase in Welsh Office support for the Development Board for Rural Wales from £12.7 million to £14.1 million. I hope that that at least makes everything clear. There is no doubt that the development board has achieved considerable success in many of its activities. On Second Reading we covered many matters both inside and outside the board's remit.

There are no financial or manpower implications in the Bill. It will simply provide cover for the board's receipt of Government funds and for its borrowing. No change will be made to the board's powers and there are no implications for the European Community.

Mr. Barry Jones : Last night the Secretary of State skirted rather gingerly over the problem of housing. There is some classic evidence of the build-up of an intolerable situation. The problem is exacerbated by the emergence of the poll tax. For instance, in Brecon there are 601 applicants on the housing waiting list. On 3 October 1980 the housing stock was 3,962. In 1990 it is only 2,660, which is a 35 per cent. reduction. The others have been sold under the right-to-buy scheme. Up to 50 per cent. of housing stock where the right to buy applies has been sold.

The sale of council houses has been quicker in villages. There are some villages in which 100 per cent. of the stock has been sold. One example in the area is Tretower. It also has 55 housing applications.

Some of the houses that have been bought under the right-to-buy scheme are now being resold as holiday homes. If housing associations built 50 new properties a year, it would still take 12 years to house those presently on the waiting list. At present rates of new build becoming available, it will take 18 years to house those on the waiting list.

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Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnor) : The hon. Gentleman is referring to my constituency. I have not heard him mention development board houses. In Tretower almost half the conventional housing stock are second homes. There are no development board houses in Tretower. Does the hon. Gentleman know how many DBRW houses there are in Brecknock? There is an inadequate number. The hon. Gentleman is talking about local government housing stock. He is quite right. Fifty per cent. have been sold off, but we need to stretch the remit of the DBRW housing stock to give it more flexibility.

Mr. Jones : I am certainly more than willing to listen to the observations of the hon. Gentleman, who knows the area well. The local authority says that if it could use all capital receipts, it could build 120 new houses. There is little chance of young people who live locally owning their own home, even with a 20 per cent. discount. I am told, and evidence has been submitted to the Select Committee, that in Crickhowell 61 per cent. of the houses have been sold out of a total of 216 and that 84 houses remain. It will be lucky if one house a year is available to be reallocated to people on the waiting list. Apparently there are six homeless families in temporary accommodation and four potentially homeless families in the area.

Housing in rural Wales is an issue of prime importance. Everyone is aware of the problems and of the impact on young marrieds and ordinary people who are really up against it. It is relevant to put it to Ministers that they have not yet tackled the problem effectively. Many tenants do not qualify for housing benefit because of restrictions. I am told that there is no prospect of any new-build accommodation in the borough, that credit approvals are not sufficient and that the authority still needs capital receipts for improvements and repairs.

The health authority in the area previously had houses to rent. That is no longer the case because it has sold them off. It is also said that Powys county authority has a policy of selling its properties in the same way.

The conclusion of the minutes of evidence to the Select Committee was, first, that there was a great need for affordable housing for both rent and low-cost purchase--a need which has increased--and, secondly, that the supply of both rented and low-cost housing had diminished. Thirdly, it was concluded that the Tai Cymru rural initiative and the provision of free or reduced-value land either from the local authority or through the planning process would help, but that the key must be recognition of the need to provide funding by subsidy to provide new dwellings.

I hope that Ministers will respond to the serious problem of housing. It is a problem which they have not solved and to which they did not appear to address themselves during yesterday's proceedings. They left the problem largely to the board, which has its problems. The Secretary of State's speech yesterday contained three essential points. First, he endorsed the board's strategy. Secondly, he acknowledged that the board's finances had been neglected. He bowed to pressure and stumped up the extra £1 million. He said that it was new money. It was gratefully received. Thirdly, the Minister ducked entirely the chief problem in rural Wales today--agriculture. Nowhere in the Secretary of State's speech did I hear a sense of either strategy or urgency. The

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National Economic Development Council recently published a report entitled "Work in the Countryside", which predicted a fall of over 9 per cent. in the number of people engaged in agriculture in the United Kingdom during the next 10 years. It estimated that that would mean a loss of over 3,000 jobs in Wales. Some say that the number will be between 3,000 and 7,500. Already Ministers know and I know that the National Farmers Union in Wales is beating tracks to the door of the Secretary of State to tell him that it is deeply worried. No one can gainsay that. There is a sense of crisis in farming, particularly in the upland communities. Yesterday we did not have a response to that problem.

In Scotland a Minister for rural affairs has been appointed. Has such an appointment been considered by the Welsh Office? There is no doubt in my mind that the Secretary of State has a fine professional staff at his disposal. They are good. Some I know well and some I have worked with. Are there enough of them? Given the challenge facing the rural areas of Wales is not there a case for Ministers to devise a strategy and to come forward with some proposals that will show the people of Wales, the upland communities and those who live in rural Wales that the Government mean business? I want Ministers to consider seriously some initiatives. As I said last night, there is a call for more leadership in this sphere.

Mr. Geraint Howells (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North) : If the day comes when the hon. Gentleman holds the reins at the Welsh Office, will agriculture be included in the remit of the Development Board for Rural Wales? Can he give the farming communities and the people of Wales that assurance?

Mr. Jones : I will not make policy on the hoof. The hon. Gentleman knows me too well for that. Nevertheless, I take the emphasis of his intervention. He knows that soon his party, mine and others will have to present their manifestos to the electorate. That is the moment of truth for Ministers as well as for Opposition parties.

I draw to the attention of Ministers the existence of a report by the Institute of Welsh Affairs. I commend it to them. It deals with the impact of inward migration, low birth rates, some heavy unemployment, low incomes and housing demand, which will be increasingly heavy towards the end of the century. It says that a strategy is needed. It wants plans to cope with the significant levels of housing demand. It says that priority should be given to raising low incomes. Ministers should study the report and I hope that it will help them to come to conclusions and to take initiatives.

Will the Minister of State promise to read the recent speech in another place of Baroness White of Rhymney, that distinguished ex-public servant who is respected and admired? The Minister will know that some years ago Lady White held the post that he now holds. She may be right to doubt whether Ministers can seriously influence Whitehall and European institutions about rural Wales. My conclusion is that Ministers do not have sufficient influence. They cannot. They are showing that they are overstretched and they may be showing that they are tired. I am saying that they are not giving sufficient leadership in this sphere, though the Minister must not take that as too serious a thrust today.

We recognise the importance of the increase in the financial limit to allow the current plans for funding the

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Development Board for Rural Wales to go ahead. That is agreed. We also recognise that an increase in the financial limit does not in itself provide any guide to the future level of expenditure for Government funding.

We are greatly worried by the Government's record on financial support to the development board. Its gross expenditure has fallen dramatically in real terms over the past decade, despite growing social and economic challenges in mid-Wales. Gross expenditure has fallen by nearly 15 per cent. in real terms since 1978-79. According to the 1990 public expenditure White Paper, gross expenditure, after taking inflation into account, is planned to fall by 8 per cent. this year. That is an example of short- sighted penny-pinching at the expense of the people of rural Wales.

Yesterday, I heard the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) express concern about Trawsfynydd. I appreciated why he felt it necessary to make those remarks, but the Minister seemed laid back in his response. When the nuclear power station closes, the loss of high status jobs there will have serious consequences. Now is the time for the Government to plan for the future of Trawsfynydd. Will the Minister consider setting up a task force, or at any rate doing something now, long before the closure takes place? The Government should be preparing to take action now, rather than waiting until the closure, and only then giving the impression of animation and preparation. The consequences of closure will be considerable. The Minister must make preparations now.

Trawsfynydd lies amid some wondrous scenery, but not for miles around is there certainty of alternative work. A task force or similar body could consider also the needs of Blaenau Ffestiniog, which is still struggling to come to terms with the consequences of the loss of its staple industry, slate.

4.30 pm

Dr. Thomas : In presenting the case for Trawsfynydd, it would be helpful for everybody if the hon. Gentleman would spell out in greater detail what he would do were he sitting on the Government Front Bench.

Mr. Jones : The former Labour Government had a good record in these matters. The development agency and the development board stand ready to help communities such as Trawsfynydd and Blaenau Ffestiniog. I am urging the Government to show intiative and to give leadership. Matters in rural Wales are not as good as the Government imply. A town such as Blaenau Ffestiniog, at nearly 1,000 ft above sea level, with about 60 in of rain a year, isolated and with poor communications, requires urgent action. The same applies to other communities in rural Wales.

Rural Wales has been let down by the Government, with the freezing of child benefit, the breaking of the link between pensions and earnings, the cut in housing benefit, soaring mortgate costs, the hated poll tax, the loss of jobs in the Laura Ashley company and the plight of hill farmers. It is fair to say that rural Wales has had enough of the Conservatives, who do not care. A Labour Government will be elected and will restore the fortunes of rural Wales.

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Mr. Livsey : There is little that I wish to say because much was said last night, but a number of points come to mind as a result of one or two matters mentioned this afternoon.

The Bill is narrowly drawn. I had hoped to be tabling an amendment now to increase by statutory instrument the funding available to the development board, but I am told that the Bill is so tightly drawn that we cannot table amendments to that effect. It would be good if in future one were able to do that. I hope that that proposal will be considered.

Sir Wyn Roberts : I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman heard my opening remarks when I explained the two-tier system of raising the financial limit which pertained before 1981. It was decided that it would be good practice to require primary legislation to raise the limit, rather than being able to do so by order. I think that the hon. Gentleman and the rest of the House will agree that what we now propose--using primary legislation--is better practice than that previously pursued.

Mr. Livsey : The Minister explains the position precisely. Although we can use that procedure and have a debate, the matter is almost a fait accompli ; we cannot change the board's remit.

Many speeches have been made outlining the desirability of giving the board other functions, such as those relating to agriculture, which are important. I hope that in future legislation can be brought in to give the development board more wide-ranging functions. Although we have had a sympathetic ear from the Secretary of State and the Minister, we cannot change the board's remit to include agriculture. We should have that opportunity in the future. The Minister also mentioned tourism, over which the development board has only limited powers. If this had been a wider- ranging debate, I should have liked to table an amendment to give the board clearer functions in relation to tourism. I understand that those powers are fairly limited at present. In future, will the development board be able to assist in building hotels, which could be leased to local entrepreneurs in various parts of Wales to raise the standard of tourist accommodation? That subject could do with our attention. Tourism is a massive industry in rural Wales and should be stimulated. I believe that the development board might well have the ability to do that.

The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) referred to housing, particularly in my constituency. The problems involved when young people try to find housing for rent are legion. The Government have ceased giving local authorities the ability to build houses for rent. Mid-Wales does not have an adequate housing association to provide sufficient housing to meet the demand. There is a Mid Wales housing association but it is extremely small, can obtain few resources and is thus unable to build adequate housing.

One of the development board's functions is to provide houses for key workers but, as I said last night, those houses are often empty for long periods in districts where the demand for rented housing is very great. It seems unsatisfactory that housing for key workers should be empty. That accommodation does not amount to a great deal of housing, and is but a drop in the ocean compared with the demand, yet even those few houses are empty.

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I should like more flexibility. The development board should be able to let some of its housing not necessarily to people coming in from outside the area but to people working in the area. There are families in my constituency who have to live with their parents in council houses because the council housing stock has been largely sold off. Sometimes parents and a son and daughter-in-law and perhaps two or three children have to live in a three-bedroomed council house. That is unsatisfactory, especially since those people work in the local economy. The development board, with the Welsh Office, should be able to create a larger housing association in mid-Wales--if that is the way the Government want to finance housing for rent--to try to satisfy the insatiable demand for housing.

This enormous problem is causing the outward migration of some of our youngest and most able people.

Mr. Alan W. Williams (Carmarthen) : Like my colleagues, I welcome the increase in the borrowing limit from £100 million to £175 million and the extra finance--it will rise from £12.7 million to £14.1 million.

The annual report of the development board and the evidence that it has presented from time to time to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs show that it is doing excellent work. Both the Development Board for Rural Wales and the Welsh Development Agency are interventionist agencies set up to stimulate new jobs--

Mr. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) : By a Labour Government.

Mr. Williams : Indeed. The agency was set up to stimulate new jobs and enterprises and to provide a stronger backbone in rural areas. Last night we heard the Secretary of State say that the development board's budget of £12 million a year serves to generate more than 1, 000 new jobs or to safeguard old ones. That works out at about £10, 000 per job, which is remarkably good value for money--the more so since the multiplier effect means that other jobs live off the salaries created by the new jobs.

Unfortunately, my constituency, despite being the second largest in Wales and very rural, is not included in the board's boundaries. The development board covers 40 per cent. of Wales, but large parts of Gwynedd, Clwyd and Dyfed are not included. My predecessor as Member for Carmarthen, Dr. Roger Thomas, felt strongly about this. I remember going on a trip in the mid- 1980s with the then shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Alec Jones, who was the hon. Member for Rhondda, and my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson). We went to Newcastle Emlyn to point out to the shadow Secretary of State that Carmarthen district and the Dinefwr borough exhibit similar geographical features and should be included. Why is Lampeter included, but not Llanybydder? Why is Llandysul included, but not Newcastle Emlyn? Why are not Llandeilo and Llandovery included when Llandrindod and Llanwrtyd are? These are all similar towns, but, by being excluded from the areas of the development board, they are missing out on some of the benefits it can offer. The WDA does excellent work in our area, but the development board has a broader remit. It is allowed to spend more of its money on social improvements and tourism facilities. I should like the board to have both

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more money and broader boundaries. I hope that any future Labour Government--and even this Government--will consider redrawing those boundaries.

4.45 pm

In the past 10 years the problems of rural areas have become immeasurably worse, as my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) said earlier. Rural depopulation presents a severe problem. Young people are leaving our countryside and looking for work in the towns--sometimes not even in Wales but across the border. We hear a great deal about inward migration in Welsh-speaking Wales, but that is only the other side of the coin. I was brought up in the countryside outside Carmarthen where it was taken almost as a fact of life in the 1950s and 1960s that small farms had to amalgamate, that jobs would be lost and that people would move into the towns. The Welsh language suffered as a result of that emigration. This downhill slide became a haemorrhage during the recession of 1979-81, when masses of manufacturing jobs were lost in rural areas and unemployment reached a peak of more than 20 per cent. in Dyfed. Between 1983 and 1988 unemployment there averaged 16 per cent.--that is what led to the haemorrhage of young people.

These people have been replaced and our population is growing, but it is different. I welcome retired people and people with new skills in craft industries, but that sort of population brings its own problems with it, particularly for the Welsh language.

Government policies in the past 10 years have hit rural areas disproportionately hard. There have been cuts in public spending on transport and road building. Not enough has been invested in road improvements or the surface of roads. There are terrible housing shortages. Rural villages contain run-down, unfit housing and there are acute problems of homelessness. We need far more public spending on housing, as the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Livsey) said.

The poll tax has hit rural areas disproportionately hard, too. Small villages have few services, so they generally have low rateable values and contribute less to local government finance. In a sense the poll tax subsidises towns and penalises rural inhabitants. A gentleman in Llansawel wrote to me 12 months ago pointing out that his rates bill was just £80. He is a pensioner and he and his wife now have to pay poll tax of well over £300--yet they will enjoy no new services in their remote rural village. They have a very low income, but it is not low enough to qualify for a rebate.

Last night, several hon. Members mentioned low pay. The problem is at its worst in rural areas. I have here some information from the Low Pay Unit--

The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Miss Betty Boothroyd) : Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but last night'was a Second Reading debate and therefore much wider. We are now on clause stand part, and low pay does not relate to the clause. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will make his remarks relevant.

Mr. Williams : Thank you, Miss Boothroyd. I stand corrected. I was, however, trying not only to make general points about rural areas, pertaining to my constituency in

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particular, but to explain how the development board's work helps to counter the problems and why it should be given more money. Average male earnings in my county--Dyfed--are lower than those in any other British county and the Government have, as a matter of policy, halved the staff of the wages inspectorate in the past 10 years. More interventionist policies are needed : the Government must take much more direct action to help rural areas.

Spending on roads has also been cut. My constituency desperately needs a road linking the M4 to Ceredigion ; as the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) will know, the road to Llandyssul, Aberaeron and Aberystwyth has hardly been improved at all in the past few years.

I have already mentioned the mass emigration of young people from Wales, and the inward migration which is proceeding apace. Although I welcome the arrival of people who contribute to the local economy and enrich the life of the area, it has caused serious problems for the Welsh language. I am, of course, very pleased when new arrivals choose to learn Welsh, but the only real way of retaining the language is to keep young people in our Welsh-speaking heartlands.

Dr. Thomas : I do not wish to stray out of order, and I am well aware that the development board does not spend money on an education policy connected with language ; it does, however, spend money on a bilingual initiative programme to develop enterprise and business expertise. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that programme would be supported much more effectively in Dyfed and other parts of mid-Wales if he and some of his hon. Friends desisted from undermining the local education authority policy for bilingual teaching there?

Mr. Williams : I am not undermining it ; I am seeking--I fear that I am out of order now--to modify it to allow room for choice, and equal opportunities for the Welsh and English languages in rural schools. I wecome the increased allocations announced in the Bill, but far more needs to be done. Rural areas have had a very rough time over the past 10 years, but, unfortunately, there will need to be a change of Government before there is a change in their fortunes.

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West) : Let me comment briefly on the latter remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams) : obviously they were in order, Miss Boothroyd, or you would not have allowed him to proceed. Let me tell my hon. Friend--as gently as possible--that some of the recent controversy in Carmarthen has been very destructive. Communities have been divided quite unnecessarily on the subject of the language. My hon. Friend may realise in retrospect that emotive words like "Stalinist" are not appropriate when applied to Dyfed county council.

We all realise how explosive the language issue is in Wales. Welshmen are not divided on religious or ethnic grounds, but the language division is very sharp, and we must not be shy to promote its use or to come to its defence.

Yesterday afternoon, a Conservative Member--talking as English people often do about their language--suggested that it was less important to extend the BBC World Service's Romanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian sections, which I consider crucial, than to extend English

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language broadcasting. He received little support for that view, which typified the arrogance sometimes displayed by English speakers. If I were to start speaking Welsh now, Miss Boothroyd--as I have in the House on a number of occasions--I would be called to order ; although other Parliaments can manage quite easily to deal with nine or 10 languages, in this Chamber the Welsh language has the same status as riotous behaviour, and I would be thrown out if I persisted in using it. This is now the only Parliament that Wales has, but perhaps the position will change when we have our own Parliament. The people now migrating to Wales are different from those of my generation. In 1851, my forebear Morris Flynn and his family were stoned by the locals on their arrival in Wales. That was the greeting given to him and his family of five--three had been lost in the potato famine--as they walked down Bute street in Cardiff. As far as I know, there is no potato famine in Burton-on-Trent, and I do not believe that the Securitate in Guildford is persecuting the people and forcing them into Wales. People are coming to Wales looking for a better life, although many are leading a good life already. They are attracted by the beauty of the countryside and the lack of pollution.

None the less, we have the right to stand up and fight for our language. We remember what the old man of Pencader said about "this corner of the world", and we know that we are the only people who can defend our unique language. It is a shame that we should react with such venom to a foolish thing said by a frail, elderly visionary who gave so much to our country-- although he certainly went too far. We should look to our visionaries, and to those who have the soul of our nation at heart, rather than indulging in the spiteful and petty controversies that have marred this last summer.

I hope that people in Carmarthen can come together, recognising the need to protect the Welsh language. The English language is not threatened ; it is used throughout the world. Welsh, however, is in the perilous state in which all minority languages find themselves when all their speakers also speak a majority language. We must not be reticent ; we must boldly defend the Welsh language.

My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen spoke of the poverty in the area covered by the development board. We hear very little about rural poverty. Let me briefly mention two issues. One is child benefit, which was recently increased. It is a shock to realise that at least 10,000 of the most deserving families in Wales will not receive the extra £1 because they happen to have suffered a bereavement or serious illness : that is in addition to the 192,000 families throughout Britain who will not receive the benefit because the Government will claw it back. The Government's was an extremely mean act.

The last great ruler who took an interest in the first born, King Herod, was a Thatcherite of the old school. One would not, of course, expect even the present Government to employ the measures that he adopted to save public expenditure.

As we emerge from the dark age of Thatcherism, I hope that policies to help families with children will emerge. The most deserving cases are being cheated outrageously by being deprived of child benefit. Rural housing is a continuing scandal. For the past 40 years, all Governments

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provided a wedge of housing in every village throughout the Principality that was cheap to rent. Council houses have disappeared altogether in many villages. Council housing, by providing the choice of cheap housing, led to a balanced economy.

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My local authority, when it was Labour-controlled, provided council houses in order to create stable, mixed communities. Now, however, it is not run by altruistic people who want to solve problems ; it is run by Conservative ideologues whose minds are obsessed with a few simple ideas that drive them on--in many cases, beyond all reason. There are no houses for rent at a reasonable price in some Welsh villages. When they change hands they are sold. Villages are therefore deprived of local labour and they become villages for stockbrokers--already so common in the south of England.

The farming industry faces a crisis. It has to compete with all the development board's activities. The decision that we take on the clause will have an effect on the farming industry. At Question Time today the farming crisis was referred to as a genuine crisis. Nobody is crying wolf. My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) said, rightly, that the crisis does not face the whole of the farming community. The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food accused me today of trying to split the farming community. It is already split. The grain barons of East Anglia cultivate grain on huge prairies that provide them with huge profits and, in the case of farmers in south Wales, if there are large harvests, they receive huge subsidies. I believe that my hon. Friend said that 80 per cent. of the farming subsidies go to very rich farmers.

Farmers have become the victims of the policies of all parties. We told them that the country must rely on its own resources. They have been provided with subsidies to grow more food. That resulted in this crisis. The medicines of the past have become the diseases of the present. The answer is not to increase subsidies generally but to ensure that they are distributed fairly. Many of the subsidies that now go to rich farmers should come to Wales. The farming industry faces many crises. I commend the Labour party's policies. They would provide an answer to the farming crisis. Production should be scaled down, where necessary, and voluntary agreements should be entered into with the farmers--

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