House of Commons Hansard Debates for 7 Dec 1990

Mr. MacGregor : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will come and talk to me about that. He referred to me being here on a Friday, which is an interesting fact because I am here at the expense of cancelling many constituency engagements. I should now be visiting a school--I have had to cancel my visit to it three times because of parliamentary commitments. That illustrates the point.

I was congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and thanking him for the tribute he paid to my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher). I paid my tribute to my right hon. Friend in one of our recent debates, so I shall not repeat it. Today's debate gives us an opportunity to spell out the decade of revival and achievement in this country that we have seen under the leadership of my right hon. Friend.

I disagree with the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), because I believe that when the history books are written they will undoubtedly record the years of the 1980s as ones of major recovery for our economy, with a new positive spirit towards Britain's economy at home, its role abroad and many other outstanding results. That record will be a permanent testimonial to a remarkable, and remarkably successful, Prime Minister.

Today we are looking back on the decade of the 1980s--that is what the motion is all about. In order fully to appreciate the change, it is important to compare this decade with the ending of the decade of the 1970s. The Labour party's outdated policies and mismanagement during its last period of government caused the decade of the 1970s to end with poor achievement in economic

Column 606

growth, certainly compared with our neighbours, massive early public overspending followed by massive cutbacks of public spending, together with continued huge borrowing, tax rates that were sometimes at 98p in the pound and were a huge disincentive to enterprise and initiative, constant interference in management, emphasis on state interference and control--we have seen some rekindling of that spirit and approach today--and capitulation to the Left.

We all recall the number of days lost and the damage done to British industry by the record number of strikes. We all recall the winter of industrial discontent. It is no wonder that, at the end of that decade, we were dubbed everywhere the sick man of Europe. I know that memories are short and that it would not be effective to recall the 1970s and the results of the Labour Government when the next election comes because times have moved on. But if we are to appreciate the measure of the achievement of the 1980s, it is important to start by reminding ourselves of the state of the country when we began that decade.

At the top of the list of political achievements in the 1980s, covering our first 11 years in power, is the turnround in our economic prospects. When we took office in 1979, the United Kingdom was at the bottom of the growth league, with the slowest growth rate in Europe. Between 1981 and 1989 we enjoyed eight successive years of sustained growth, averaging more than 3 per cent. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West simply cannot gainsay that. Together with Spain, the United Kingdom's economy has grown faster during the 1980s than those of all the other major European Community countries--faster than France and Germany. The reasons for using the starting date of 1981 is that, during our first two years of office, we had to deal with the overhang and all the difficulties left us in the economy. Our economic growth is reflected in the big increase in living standards for the people of this country. A figure that is often quoted, but is worth repeating because it puts into context what the hon. Member for Newham, North-West said, is that the average take-home pay in this country--that of a married man with two children on male average earnings--has increased by more than 30 per cent. in real terms during those 11 years.

Those are the bald figures, but aspirations, opportunities, and the ability to do all sorts of things that were not possible for previous generations-- to have a better lifestyle and with greater fulfilment--have been realised for millions of our people. My hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Taylor) mentioned the increase in assets owned by many people, so I shall not repeat his figures. Only a Government with the political will to take the tough action needed to reverse years of decline could have achieved all that. I grant that the rate of inflation is again too high, although it is low compared with what it was in the years of the last Labour Government. It is already clear beyond doubt that the same firmness of purpose that we have shown throughout these years is bearing fruit now. The tight policy stance of the past few years is already working. Whatever easy promises and false hopes are peddled by the Labour party, Conservatives have never pretended that it would be easy or painless to get inflation under control and keep it there. All the elements of our economic policy have their part to play : a tight monetary policy supported by a tough fiscal stance ; unprecendented levels of

Column 607

repayment of public sector debt ; and firm control of public spending so that additional resources are provided in accordance with priorities.

The underlying strength of the economy derives from and is clear witness to the political wisdom and courage consistently shown by this Government since 1979. We are still showing it. Inflationary pressures are easing, as is clear from the monetary indicators. Above all, it is clear that, when there are signs of overheating in the economy and of rising inflationary pressures, it is this Government who take the prompt, effective and sometimes unpopular action to deal with them--in sharp contrast with the Labour party's record in government and its present policies.

Over the past four years debt repayment has topped£29 billion. In the current year debt repayment of £3 billion is expected, an unprecedented achievement which means that we are clearing up the debts of previous Governments instead of adding to the debt burden that will fall on our children. This will give us the strongest fiscal position of any G7 country apart from Japan.

Firm control of public spending underlines our commitment to the objectives for the medium term of a balanced budget. Since 1984-85 there has been the largest sustained fall for more than 30 years in the ratio of public spending to national income--a fall of more than 7 per cent. Controlling public spending is essential for sound economic management. That is a lesson that the Labour party never learns, and it is emerging clearly from the way in which they approach policy now that the Opposition still have not learnt it. It is certainly one of the factors that has made possible our economic growth and enabled us to put a great many additional resources into key priority areas and to make substantial changes in tax rates over the past 11 years. Increased economic growth, responsible economic stewardship and proper attention to priorities have enabled us to increase resources in many crucial public spending areas, some of which I want to mention to eradicate the impression given in some Opposition Members' speeches this morning.

In the past 11 years we have done more than has ever been done before to protect the most vulnerable groups in society. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie) tried to give the impression that we had not devoted enough resources to social security. Total expenditure on social security is up by 36 per cent. in real terms. Average pensioners' real net income--

Mrs. Ray Michie : What about employment?

Mr. MacGregor : I shall come to that in a moment.

Average pensioners' real net income is up by more than 30 per cent. and the incomes of pensioners who depend on social security benefits have risen by 27 per cent. in real terms, compared with by 6 per cent. under the Labour Government. Support for people in residential care and nursing homes--they are mostly pensioners--has trebled in real terms, per head, since 1979.

The figures speak for themselves. We are spending more than £1.1 billion in 1989-90, compared with only £20 million in 1979. Since the 1988 social security reforms, we have devoted another £350 million a year, in real terms, to help low-income families with children. Family credit for working families has become more generous, and more families are being helped.

One factor that particularly delights me is that expenditure on benefits for the long-term sick has doubled

Column 608

in real terms since 1979 with many more benefits being introduced and many more people helped. It is not just a question of extra resources because we have increased the incentive to work for pensioners and families on low incomes. More than 70 per cent. of newly retired pensioners have occupational pension schemes, and in many ways greater choice is available to many pensioners. Such matters give the lie to the Opposition charge that we have not concentrated resources on those who are most in need. We have been able to do that because of the success of our economic policies. The ability to put more public money where it is needed without prejudice to our firm control of the economy demonstrates another political achievement of our economic record. No longer is the long -term health of our country's economy put at risk by short-term political expediency.

All over Britain people and businesses have responded positively to our lead. I shall give some important figures to demonstrate the success of the 1980s. In the three years to 1989 business investment increased by 45 per cent., the largest three-year increase since the war. United Kingdom investment growth in the 1980s was higher than that of any other European Community country except Spain. Total non-residential investment as a share of GDP puts us near the top of the league table of major industrialised countries.

The profitability of industrial and commercial companies last year and the year before was the highest since 1973. The same was true for manufacturing companies, where profitability was over three times the figure at the start of the decade. The rate at which new businesses start up continues dramatically to outstrip business closures, by 1, 700 a week in 1989. Why have we had this decade of achievement and success in the business and commercial sector? It is partly because of the setting of the right economic climate and partly because we have set managers free to do what they do best, which is to manage. That is why we have seen a net increase in new businesses of 400,000 since 1979 and why 1.5 million more people are now self-employed. Employment is now at its highest ever level, having increased by 3.75 million since 1983. That rise is greater than the rise in any other European country. Therefore, it is not true to say that we have a higher rate of unemployment than any other European country because our rate is well below the Community average.

Privatisation and wider ownership have helped to foster this sea change in attitudes. The runaway success of the privatisation programme will surely stand out in decades to come as one of the significant political achievements of the 1980s. The very term "privatisation" was coined to make clear the complete break with the failed and discredited policy of nationalisation. It is a backhanded but none the less welcome tribute to our success that the Opposition are now so embarrassed by what remains of their commitment to the renationalisation of privatised industries that they have not committed themselves to such renationalisation. This debate shows that there is a great debate in the Opposition about that matter. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West clearly indicated that he would like to see massive renationalisation and claimed that, although he was not quite in splendid isolation, his was very much a minority view in his party. I do not think that that is true. I think that he was revealing the true spirit

Column 609

and attitude of the Opposition. It is important for the country to note that that indicates what the Opposition would do if they were returned to power.

Some 11 million people--one in four of the adult population--now own shares. Many of them have shares in only one or two companies, but at the start of a great new approach for many people who have never contemplated being part of a wider share-owning democracy it is inevitable that they should start by investing in only one or two companies. Significantly, the number of share owners has tripled in the past 11 years. By any standard, that is a massive broadening of the only sort of public ownership of the means of production which has any real virtue and which carries any weight in a modern, internationally competitive economy. That lesson, it is significant to note, is being learnt painfully but eagerly by all the countries of eastern Europe as they emerge from the long dark nights of socialism.

We are proud of the spread of ownership not just in shares but in owner- occupation--now two thirds of the population. I hope that we shall see it spread a good deal further. My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon made some interesting points about the new mortgage schemes in Basildon. There is also the spread of ownership to having one's own pension--not just occupational pensions. I have already said that 77 per cent. of new pensioners already have an occupational pension, and there are also personal pensions. The growth of self-employment and small businesses is another factor in the same vein.

All these factors are extending personal ownership and personal responsibility. They are doing something else to which my hon. Friend referred. The decade of the 1980s will go down as a time of great social mobility. I have much pride in that. I came into politics and the Conservative party with a firm belief in spreading widely ownership, personal responsibility and personal wealth and assets. I noted what my hon. Friend said about his background in Newham. I come from a coal-mining village in Scotland where nearly everyone--at that time and, to a large extent, still--was housed in municipal dwellings. Few had the aspirations that so many hold now. My awareness of the fact that only the most enterprising were breaking away, and my deep desire to see taking place there what was happening in other parts of the country, with a greater spread of owner-occupation, leading to a more attractive environment for individuals and their families, gave me my conviction about the importance of the spread of ownership.

One of the most commendable events about the 1980s is that we have been able to achieve that spread of ownership but also to have much greater social mobility, and much greater classlessness, because that is what follows from it. The modern Tory party is a good example of a party to which anyone can aspire. We are drawing people from all classes, races and backgrounds in increasing numbers. One of the great achievements of the 1980s is that class warfare and attitudes are now a thing of the past.

Mr. Amess : Does my right hon. Friend share my pleasure at the announcement that has just come from the Palace stating that the Queen has appointed my right hon.

Column 610

Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) as a member of the Order of Merit? Is that not a fitting tribute to so courageous a lady?

Mr. Tony Banks : What about Denis?

Mr. MacGregor : I have only just been handed the press notice. I am sure that the House will share our pleasure about the announcement. The hon. Member for Peckham spoke of families. We have enormously admired the part that Denis Thatcher played in the past decade. He has been paid a fitting tribute, and I shall read out the press notice :

"The Queen has been pleased to approve that the dignity of a Baronetcy of the United Kingdom be conferred upon Denis Thatcher". We have also carried out industrial relations reforms to ensure that unions remain firmly under the control of their members. We now have a legal framework for industrial relations that ensures that the disgraceful scenes that we witnessed in the dark, dying days of the last Labour Government should never be repeated. The number of stoppages is the lowest for over half a century and the number of days lost because of strikes is a fifth of the average of the 1970s. These bare statistics represent another of our major political achievements.

To hear the criticisms of our achievements in the last decade voiced by the Labour party, one would think that our encouragement of freedom of choice was meant as a substitute for extra resources from the public purse. I have already shown what nonsense that is on our social policies and it is equally true of our health policy. Next year, £32 billion will be spent on the NHS. That is 50 per cent. more in real terms than the Labour Government spent in the last year of office. I do not have time to show all the ways in which these resources are used in the NHS, but they include reductions in the waiting lists, the big increase in the number of patients treated, the extra number of new hospitals, of doctors and of nurses. One of the great achievements of the past decade was the massive priority given to the national health service.

The same is true of education and training. As a former Secretary of State for Education and Science, I should have liked to spend more time on the subject, but I wish to allow other hon. Members to contribute to the debate. Moreover, there has been a revolution in training. British companies, encouraged by the Government and the training and enterprise councils that we have set up, are devoting £20 billion a year to training. That is a big improvement on the achievements of past years. Spending per pupil in schools has increased by 40 per cent. in real terms during the last decade. Moreover, freedom of choice for parents has increased as a result of our reforms. The reform of the GCSE, the technical and vocational education initiative and the national curriculum have led to ever-increasing standards and to many more young people staying on voluntarily at school after 16. They are obtaining ever better grades in GCSE and A-levels. Above all, there has been a massive explosion in the number of young people entering higher education. That is a major investment for the future. It means also that the educational aspirations of many more young people are being fulfilled. For reasons of time there are many other areas that I shall be unable to cover while talking about the past decade, but much of what I have said can be summed up in the phrase "power to the people". My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon referred to personal responsibility

Column 611

and decision-taking. We are talking about the power to choose medical treatment through the NHS reforms, the power to choose schools, the power to choose how to spend more and more of our individual incomes instead of having the state spend it for us. We are also talking about the power that we have given to people to own their own homes or to take a stake in the company for which they work. We have provided the power to ensure that unions follow the wishes of their moderate members. We have also provided the power, which more and more people are exercising as the seeds of the enterprise culture take root and flower, to start their own businesses.

My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon briefly referred to what has happened during the last decade in terms of foreign affairs and defence and to the role of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley. I should have dearly liked to go into that subject in greater depth. Recent debates, however, have provided us with the opportunity to deal with those issues. I shall therefore refrain, except to say that I do not believe that the foreign affairs achievements that we have witnessed, the developments in eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, or the end of the cold war would have come about were it not for the determination of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley during the early years of the last decade to maintain our defences--in particular, to deploy cruise and Pershing missiles--and yet at the same time to be one of the first to start a real dialogue with President Gorbachev.

That, and everything else to which I have referred, is in marked contrast to the approach of the last Labour Government. Moreover, I believe that we shall find that it is in marked contrast to the policies that the Labour party is developing. I should have liked to spend a few moments on that subject, but I shall refrain from doing so in order that other hon. Members can speak in the debate. We are beginning to see--we have already seen it this week in the Labour party's policy documents on health and education-- that the Labour party has not learnt anything from what happened in the 1970s and the successes of the 1980s.

The two Labour party documents that have been published this week are notable for three characteristics. First, the Labour party rejects so many of the policies that have increased choice, freedom and competition within the state services. I refer to increased choice for individuals--for example, increased choice for parents in education, a choice that is becoming increasingly popular. Secondly, the Labour party would set up more quangos. Indeed, quango, quango, quango is a feature of the Labour party's two policy documents. Thirdly, the Labour party is making promises, promises, promises without suggesting how it intends to raise the finance to undertake those spending promises. The Opposition have been careful to avoid any reference to actual figures. Nevertheless, they are very free with their pledges.

Mr. Grocott : They are specific and narrow.

Mr. McGregor : The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with that. I have counted up the number of new commitments. The Labour party will make exactly the same mistakes as it made last time.

Above all, the decade of the 1980s has been one not only of great positive achievements but of the extension of

Column 612

opportunity and choice to so many people in this country. Only this party and this Government will be able to carry that on in the 1990s.

1.4 pm

Mr. Bruce Grocott (The Wrekin) : It would be difficult to think of a motion quite as wide-ranging as this one. Despite its wide-ranging nature, one or two hon. Members have strayed beyond it. I shall deal with the one who strayed further than any of the others--my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Ms. Harman). I am glad that she managed to remain in order because she made several extremely important points about the conditions in this place--points with which I strongly agree--and I am pleased that the Leader of the House agrees with many of them as well.

It is in my nature that I should want to be a little more radical in the proposals. My hon. Friend did not deal adequately enough with the problems experienced by hon. Members away from London. I see no earthly reason why it should not be possible for some debates to be held away from London. I cannot see why this debate needs to be located in this building in the centre of London. Why can it not be held in the regions? We shall no doubt be told that civil service need to attend, that it would cause great expense, and so on, but there are not that many civil servants here today and massive briefing is not necessary for debates of this kind. We must try to be a little less London-based and to move out into the regions. However, that is getting dangerously out of order, so I shall revert to the motion tabled by the hon. Member for Basildon (Mr. Amess). I have rarely known a more wide-ranging subject. Having participated only occasionally in a debate such as this, I assume that there must be a clear injunction from Central Office to Tories tabling motions enjoining them to keep off the specific--in other words, "Whatever you do, do not mention specifically what is happening in your constituency ; do not mention mortgage rates, the poll tax, hospital waiting lists, crumbling schools or any of the other specific things that are happening in your constituency ; keep it very general."

Mr. Wilshire : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Grocott : I will give way later.

The original motion tabled by the hon. Member for Basildon was simply

"To call attention to United Kingdom political developments since 1979."

The hon. Gentleman elaborated on that a little and, so far as I could make out, gave a eulogy or Thatcher memorial lecture. The wording of the motion, as it later developed, basically says that the former Prime Minister liberated eastern Europe, could wrestle tigers and did sundry other things in the past 11 years. That is not true--I can speak with a certain authority on this--and I am delighted to have seen the end of the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) as Prime Minister. In saying that, I speak on behalf of a clear majority in the House. It is rare for an Opposition Front-Bench spokesman to be able to claim with authority that he or she is speaking on behalf of the majority in the House, but in saying how delighted I am to see the back of the former Prime Minister, I speak on behalf of my 226 colleagues, the 168 Conservative Members who voted against her or abstained and, say, about 20 Liberals and other parties. More than 400

Column 613

Members are delighted to see the back of the right hon. Lady, and it is a sound and shrewd judgment. In summary of the Thatcher years, the right hon. Member for Finchley has been merely the figurehead of Thatcherism--a mean-minded philosophy, based on greed and selfishness, which has no moral authority.

During the debate, no grand idea has been put forward by a Conservative Member. Specifics have been mentioned, but there has been no attempt to give the Conservative Government an overall moral justification. I do not have the slightest doubt that when the history books are written, the 1980s will be seen as the shabby years that they were, when so much was wrong in this country. I intend to refer to the specifics of what went wrong and to the demise of the right hon. Member for Finchley. I know that Conservative Members are not too keen on going into details about that, but I see it as part of my duty to do so.

I wish to examine briefly the specifics of the Thatcher years. Let us consider the gap between rich and poor, which has expanded in the past eleven and a half years. Let us consider the growth in homelessness. In the past full year, 120,000 households have been accepted as homeless. That is double the number in 1979. There were 14,390 evictions in the first six months of this year. That is the measure of the gap between rich and poor.

Let us consider the massive unemployment. Such things do not seem to touch the lives of Conservative Members, although even on the Government's official, fiddled figures, unemployment went above 3 million during the 1980s. Let us consider the despair of school leavers. There is no opportunity for thousands of our school leavers to go into a job of which they can be proud and the chances of obtaining an apprenticeship are slim.

There have been attacks on our civil liberties in the past 11 years, of which the most classic and brutal was the denial of trade union rights at the Government communications headquarters in Cheltenham. A shabby bribe was offered to ensure that trade union rights were given up.

Apart from specific attacks on civil liberties, there has been constant denigration of the broadcasting media. I speak with some feeling as a member of the National Union of Journalists and of the Association of Cinematograph, Television and Allied Technicians. Threats came repeatedly from the then chairman of the Conservative party, the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit). There were disgraceful scenes at this year's Conservative party conference when the BBC in particular, which is admired throughout the world and in this country, as all opinion polls show, was attacked by the deeply unrepresentative activists in the Tory party.

I fear what would happen to the broadcasting system if the Government were re-elected. They have already done a great deal of damage through the Broadcasting Act 1990. Central Independent television in my own region announced almost 500 redundancies last week as a direct and predictable result of the Broadcasting Act. That important part of our national life is being damaged under this Government.

What has happened in the past 11 years to law and order--the Tories' own fighting ground? I always take the precaution of bringing copies of Tory manifestos to

Column 614

debates such as this. It is worth looking at their manifesto commitments on law and order, of which they are usually so proud. The 1979 manifesto contained a proud section called "The Fight Against Crime", in which the Tories said how dreadful it was that the crime rate was going up. In the 1983 election manifesto, the Tories tended to duck the subject because of the failures, and the section was entitled :

"Law, Democracy and the Citizen".

By 1987--it took them a long time to get to this stage--the Tories were saying :

"We do not underrate the challenge. Crime has been rising steadily over the years The origins of crime lie deep in society". One does not often see such profound sentiments in a Tory manifesto. The manifesto continued :

"Government alone cannot tackle such deep-rooted problems easily or quickly."

Crime rates have rocketed on all fronts under this Government and we now have the highest prison population in western Europe. That is another area of shame in the 11 years of the Conservative Administration.

I must take advantage of the presence of the Leader of the House, who was formerly Secretary of State for Education and Science, to say something about education. The right hon. Gentleman talks about choice in education. He did not give parents in my constituency much choice when, against all advice and in the face of much pleading, he insisted on establishing a city technology college at a cost to the taxpayer of £8.5 million, which is more than the expenditure on all the other schools in the county put together. Did that give parents choice or create a level playing field? As has happened so often--notably on the Health Service--the Government took no notice of representations from teachers, parents, pupils, churches and local authorities, including one Conservative-controlled authority. The right hon. Gentleman officially admits to having received 91 direct representations from my constituents when he was Secretary of State. Some 85 of those representations argued against the establishment of a CTC. What did the Secretary of State do? He established a CTC. There was not much consultation or choice in that case.

The same is true of the health service. The Government have passed legislation for which they have no mandate. It was not mentioned in the last Tory manifesto. The Government have forced the legislation through and now hospitals are opting out against the expressed wishes of those living in the communities that they serve. Where is the choice in that? What is all this nonsense about freedom of choice? I am not surprised that the Leader of the House talked so much about the economy. Some misguided people may say, "I know that the Tories don't care much and they are not much good on social issues, but perhaps one has to be a bit rough and tough to succeed in economic terms." Even on the Government's own definition of success, they have been abject failures. I am amazed that Conservative Members should have mentioned taxation. For the average couple with two children, the tax burden as a proportion of gross income has increased under this Government. When the Conservatives came to power, our inflation rate stood at about the European average. It is now twice the European average. The Government must learn to live with statistics like those.

Column 615

I shall speak rather more passionately about the effect of the Government's policies on manufacturing industry and engineering in the west midlands.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : According to column 206 of yesterday's Hansard, taking account of taxation and child benefit, the average family is £58 a week better off under this Government, compared with an increase of less than £1.40 under the Labour Government. That may not be altogether inconsistent with what the hon. Gentleman says but it tells rather a different story.

Mr. Grocott : The hon. Gentleman should check the figures. He will discover that, in 1979, 35.2 per cent. of gross weekly income was spent in taxation. The figure is now 36.6 per cent. That is no great surprise. One cannot double VAT a day or two after coming into office and claim to be reducing the burden of taxation. That is one of the myths that the Government have managed to create.

I have lived all my adult life in the west midlands--Britain's engineering heartland. In 1979, there were 613,000 manufacturing jobs in the west midlands. There are now 385,000. It is almost impossible to secure an engineering apprenticeship. Yet the Government wonder why, when there is an economic upturn, foreign engineering products and manufactured goods are sucked in. That is inevitable. Who would have thought it possible--given that the Government came to power with a huge international trade surplus-- that by 1983 Britain, the workshop of the world, would turn around to such an extent that we now have a deficit of £16 billion in manufactured trade. [Interruption.] Conservative Members representing southern constituencies may find that amusing. If the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) represented a constituency in the west midlands, she would not find it funny.

Mrs. Gorman : The hon. Gentleman must be aware that as societies and their economies advance, they move from practical manufacturing industries into more financially based industries. We have done that and Britain is the European Community leader in financial services. Japan and America are moving in the same direction. Measuring manufacturing industry as a sign of prosperity is old-fashioned and out-of-date economics.

Mr. Grocott : I am sorry that the hon. Lady believes that priceless engineering skills are old-fashioned and out of date. That is one of many views which place her in a minority in the House and in the country.

All the dreadful things that have happened in the past 11 years might be understandable if we had been uniquely disadvantaged or if something dreadful had happened with which we had had to cope and therefore had to make sacrifices. But the reverse is the case. Not surprisingly, the Leader of the House did not mention oil revenues in his catalogue of the economy over the past 11 years. How different the world would have been if the last Labour Government had had the oil revenues and the present Tory Government had not. I recall the year 1979 with particular vividness. In my judgment, the electors of Lichfield and Tamworth made a particularly silly decision that year and I lost my seat. The economic and political literature in 1979 agreed that because of the predictable oil revenues that were growing year by year, whatever party won the 1979 general election would in all probability win the next one and the one after that. There is no magic about what

Column 616

happened in electoral terms during the 1980s. The Government were saved by oil revenues. Quite disastrously and disgracefully, they have also been saved by revenues from privatisation. In those immortal words, they sold the family silver. There is nothing very clever about that. The 1980s were undoubtedly unique years because assets can be sold only once and, tragically, so many of our assets have been sold at knock-down prices.

Those are the legacies of 11 years of Thatcherism. I am sure that if Conservative Members reflect on them, they will be ashamed. I am delighted that the Prime Minister has gone. The policies have not been changed, but I am pleased that she has gone. I want to reflect on some of the circumstances surrounding her departure which may be rather uncomfortable for some Conservative Members, although I dare say that most of those present today supported the former Prime Minister in the election.

Undoubtedly the past few weeks have been unique in history. As we live through such periods, we often do not see what has happened in perspective. What has happened over the past three weeks--an incredibly short period of time--is without historical precedent. A Prime Minister in peacetime, with a large majority in the House and with at least 18 months before it was necessary to call a general election, has been thrown out.

I checked the dates before the debate. On 13 November the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) made his devastating speech in the House. On 15 November nominations were made for the two leadership candidates. On 22 November the former Prime Minister said that she would resign and by 28 November we had a new Prime Minister. Other Prime Ministers were keen to continue--we are all aware that both Churchill and Macmillan wanted to carry on--but there has never been such a devastating and public rejection of a Prime Minister by her own party.

That revealed a little about the Prime Minister. We hear a great deal about her courage--there is a lot about her courage in the motion. To use her language--I am sure I shall not offend her by using it as she has often used it against us--we discovered that she was frit. She did not have to quit. She could have stayed on for the second ballot. She had the choice to carry on. Some people think that she might have won if she had stayed on for the second ballot. At least she had that option. There is something else that she could have done, but she would have been even more frit of that--she could have called a general election. She could have told the Queen that things had happened beyond her control and recommended that we let the country judge whether she should continue. Clearly, she was even more frit of the electorate than of her own party.

Of course, it all goes back to the good luck of the oil revenue. I have long suspected it of the former Prime Minister, and she has proved it at last. We have heard so much about her guts and courage, but it is dead easy to lead a political party when things are going well. It is incredibly tough to lead a political party when times are bad. As soon as she had a sustained period of difficulty, she went. We shall all be able to judge that in future.

Mr. Wilshire : I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's definition of toughness. Does he accept that the toughest thing of all for any politician of whatever political persuasion is to put the future of the country and of one's

Column 617

party before one's own career? That is exactly what happened. That proves that my right hon. Friend was tougher than the hon. Gentleman will ever be.

Mr. Grocott : The hon. Gentleman shows the common confusion among Thatcherites, which is the inability to distinguish between the good of the country and the good of his party.

Why did she leave? Journalists--with all due respect to all my old friends in the National Union of Journalists--have got it horribly wrong. Did she leave because of the attack by her former deputy Prime Minister? Of course not. Did she leave because of splits in the Tory party over Europe? Of course there are splits in the Tory party over Europe, but that has nothing to do with the reason why she left. Did she leave because of the breakdown of Cabinet Government? There is not the slightest doubt that there was a breakdown in Cabinet Government--we have more than enough evidence of that- -but that was not the reason why she left. She left because she was being beaten by the Labour party. [Laughter.]

I will wipe the smiles off Conservative Members' faces with one simple question--and I will give way to any one of them who can answer it. Four weeks ago today, in the small hours of the morning, the result of the Bradford by-election was declared. Does any Conservative Member seriously doubt that if the Tory party had won the Bradford by-election, or even if it had come a good second instead of an abysmal third the former Prime Minister would not still be the Prime Minister? Of course she would. She was thrown out because the Tories saw exactly what was happening to their party. They were being trounced at every test of electoral opinion in the past 18 months, through a series of disastrous by-election results, local election results and the European election. With clinical precision the Tories realised that they had had it. It was because of our success that she went, not because of a cabal of Tory Members.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : The hon. Gentleman is right to say that if Bradford had gone the other way that may not have happened, but it is worth remembering that Bradford became Conservative because of a split in the Labour party. When Ben Ford stood, the Labour vote was split. We do not regard it as a completely Conservative seat. The hon. Gentleman is wrong to believe that all that was inevitable. My right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), having seen the results of the first ballot, decided that the wounds could heal if she stepped aside. They have healed, and the Labour party is trying to face the problem that it was some way ahead at some stage but is now some way behind. Its leader is less popular with the electorate than the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) is. The Labour party cannot change its leader. The hon. Gentleman's remarks explain how the Labour party will lose the next election because it is stuck with its leader.

Mr. Grocott : If the hon. Gentleman believes the polls of the last two or three weeks and really believes that we are behind, there is a good solution--he can beg the new Prime Minister for a general election. That is the way to test things, and we would love it. Let us test that belief in a real poll as soon as possible. That is the way to deal with it.

Column 618

We all know perfectly well that, over a long and sustained period, the Conservative party has been doing disastrously in election after election. I am sorry that the former chairman of the Conservative party is not in his place today because I have debated this with him once or twice before. His must have been the most monumentally unsuccessful period as chairman of the Conservative party because, during his 14 months in office, he lost nine by-elections, numerous local elections and a Prime Minister. That is not bad going for a short period in office. When the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State for Education and Science, he was tremendously fond of testing and checking by results and performance. He must be profoundly relieved that those rules do not apply in the Cabinet. He has been promoted, which is what Tories do with failures. Promoting by results is an old Tory doctrine that they apply to every but themselves.

I shall dwell a little longer on the Tory party's electoral process when picking their new leader because it revealed a great deal about the mystical workings of that old political party, which none of us had seen revealed before. The first thing that it showed us was the peculiar position held by the chairman of the party. We are often told that the Tories taught eastern Europe about democracy. Almost any political party in eastern Europe or anywhere else would be staggered by a system in which the chairman of a political party was appointed by the leader of that party and, during the election for the leadership of the party, actively campaigned for one of the two candidates. That is an astonishing electoral system if ever I saw one.

The role of the returning officer is also worth a word. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is more of an expert on Tory mechanics because he stood outside the Committee Room for most of the time, but as I understand it, the returning officer is the chairman of the Back-Bench 1922 committee. Not only did the right hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) say right at the beginning that he did not think that there should be any election--an odd position for a returning officer--but when one of the candidates won, he appeared to have an emotional breakdown. That is not the neutrality that one expects from a returning officer.

Mr. Skinner : Not only is what my hon. Friend has said about the chairman of the 1922 committee true--the chairmanship of that Back-Bench committee is another of the curious appointments in the Tory party--but when the Tories had the first ballot I did the exit poll and was only three out because I forecast 149. When the result was 152 for Gary Glitter, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine)--the right hon. Member for Woking was so upset that he took the ballot box into another Committee Room. Has my hon. Friend ever heard of any returning officer in any election not being prepared to face the electorate? The right hon. Gentleman dragged the ballot box from Committee Room 12 to Committee Room 14. All the Tory Members were asking, "What's the result?", and the journalists, the Labour Members and all the rest got to know first. Every Custodian in the House knew the result before the Tory party electorate did. Amazingly, those 372 people turned up for work on two successive Tuesdays just to vote.

Mr. Grocott : My hon. Friend has a duty to the House to prepare a report on what he knows.

Mr. Skinner : I am doing that--it will be a pamphlet.

Column 619

Mr. Grocott : Seeing what my hon. Friend made of the Tory electoral process would make extremely interesting reading. That electoral process revealed something a little more sinister about the Tory party and its operations. I refer hon. Members who have not seen it to a little article in last week's Observer, which may not be much loved by Conservative Members, but which referred to those hon. Members who had supported the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine). What sort of party can it be in a democracy when only about 20 of the 152 Conservative Members who voted for the right hon. Gentleman had the nerve to admit that they voted for him? What sort of Stalinism is that in a so- called democratic political party? We know that the hon. Member who challenged the former Prime Minister last year has been deselected by his constituency party. What will happen to the supporters of the right hon. Member for Henley this year? All are being threatened with deselection in one form or another, and one of them--quoted anonymously in the article to which I referred, and we appreciate why he had to remain anonymous--said :

"What I cannot forgive and what I cannot easily convey is the viciousness of the reaction to Michael's challenge."

Conservative Members know what is going on in their constituencies. I was amused to hear the hon. Member for Basildon proudly proclaim that he voted for the former Prime Minister in the first ballot and for the present Prime Minister in the second--what political courage!

Mr. Wilshire : I would have thought that, as a journalist, the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Grocott) would have known better than to be totally selective in quoting from newspaper articles. Had he chosen any other newspaper and counted up the number of hon. Members who declared for all three candidates he would have discovered that, far from there being only 20 in the context to which he referred, the Conservative party in the House apparently numbered about 745.

Mr. Grocott : The hon. Gentleman trivialises a serious issue.

Mr. Skinner : The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) did not make his position clear in my exit poll.

Mr. Grocott : My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover reports that the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) did not even declare his position to the exit pollster.

Mr. Wilshire : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Grocott) to misrepresent me in that way? I made it absolutely clear as I came out of the room on each occasion--and to the newspapers--that on the first ballot I voted for my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) and on the second for the current Prime Minister.

Mr. Grocott : Another courageous knight has declared himself. Clearly, Conservative Members were stunned when the right hon. Member for Finchley resigned. It was no accident, and it is not difficult to explain, why the present Prime Minister won the ballot. His election was utterly predictable. To begin with, he had the block vote of the hard Right. We hear much about factions and groups in the Labour party. One well-organised group in the Conservative party--we have seen it in operation

Next Section

Home Page