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House of Commons
Thursday 13 December 1990
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
British Railways
(No. 2) Bill-- (By Order) Order for consideration, as amended, read.
To be considered on Thursday 17 January.
Heathrow Express Railway Bill
[Lords] (By Order) Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Tuesday 18 December at Seven o'clock.
Oral Answers to Questions
HOME DEPARTMENT
Refugees
1. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many refugees are currently seeking permanent settlement in the United Kingdom ; what are the broad and main reasons behind their application for settlement ; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Kenneth Baker) : On 30 September there were some 27,800 outstanding applications for asylum, most of which had been made in the previous 12 months. People claim asylum for a range of reasons, including a well-founded fear of persecution, economic factors, or as a means of circumventing normal immigration controls. In recent years fewer than a third of asylum seekers in the United Kingdom have been recognised as having a well-founded fear of persecution. In view of the rising number of asylum applications the Government are urgently reviewing the arrangements for dealing with asylum seekers in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Greenway : Although I have every sympathy with refugees and asylum seekers who are in genuine difficulties, may I ask my right hon. Friend to take note of my concern and that of my constituents at the very large number of asylum seekers coming into the constituency, necessarily taking over much-needed housing that could be used for the homeless and others and placing an enormous strain on the area's resources? Two people came to see me separately last week and said, "We have applied for asylum for ourselves. Could we also apply for asylum for 10 dependants?' That sort of thing can build up to huge numbers. What can be done?
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Mr. Baker : I am fully aware of the problem. About 10 years ago there were about 2,000 applications a year for refugee status. In the mid- 1980s the figure rose to about 5,000 a year and stayed at that level for some time. In 1989 applications increased threefold to 16, 000, and are currently running at over 25,000. As my hon. Friend says, after people have been received here they make applications for their dependants, the number of whom could be considerable. The problem is not unique to the United Kingdom. There is an increase in the number of refugees all over Europe, and all countries and Ministers with responsibilities such as mine are very concerned about it. We must ensure that something is done.
Mr. Cartwright : Will the Home Secretary reflect on the real hardship that is caused to applicants for refugee status by extremely lengthy delays in processing their applications? People from Somalia, for example, have had to leave families behind in refugee camps in Ethiopia and for such people delays of more than a year are hard to bear. Can he give any hope that the process will be speeded up?
Mr. Baker : Because of the rapid and sudden increase in the number of applications, it is currently taking an average of 17 months to vet and examine applications for refugee status. I discovered only last week that in several countries in Europe it takes much longer. We are doing what we can and the matter will be examined by the review that I have set up.
Woolf Report
2. Mr. Sheerman : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he anticipates receiving the Woolf inquiry report.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mrs. Angela Rumbold) : This is a matter for Lord Justice Woolf, but I understand that he hopes to report early in the new year.
Mr. Sheerman : If the Woolf report appears after we finish Committee proceedings on the Criminal Justice Bill it will be nothing short of a scandal, because everyone expects extremely sensible recommendations from Woolf which will affect, in particular, remand prisoners. Would not it be better to wait for Woolf rather than to carry through the dogma of the privatisation of the remand sector?
Mrs. Rumbold : The report from Lord Justice Woolf will certainly be published before the end of proceedings on the Criminal Justice Bill and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will carefully consider the recommendations.
Mr. Alexander : Although the immediate reaction to an incident such as that at Strangeways is to call for a full and wide-ranging report on prison conditions and inmate problems, would not it be equally helpful to have a much shorter factual report about what happened before the whole incident at Strangeways goes cold?
Mrs. Rumbold : I assure my hon. Friend that the immediate circumstances surrounding the events of April in Strangeways have caused the prison service to look carefully at future plans for accommodation, the type of accommodation and the behaviour and management of prisons and regimes. The report will obviously make a
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number of recommendations, but the prison service has taken note of what needs to be done to improve prison regimes and security without waiting for that report.Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : Will the Woolf inquiry deal with the problem of remand prisoners being held in police cells in Greater Manchester since the Strangeways incident? In particular, will the numbers being held in police cells now be dramatically reduced and who will pay the cost of their detention there? There is much concern in Greater Manchester that poll tax payers will have to foot the bill for all the overtime that is being worked by police officers looking after remand prisoners in police cells.
Mrs. Rumbold : The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that K wing at Strangeways is now open and prisoners are being returned from police cells in Greater Manchester. It is hoped that up to 150 prisoners will be sent to Strangeways from police cells by Christmas. The Home Office has already paid £8 million to the police for their services and any further expenditure incurred by the police for looking after prisoners will be repaid.
Crime
3. Mr. Kirkwood : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what new plans he has to reduce the incidence of crime in the United Kingdom ; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. John Patten) : We shall continue to pursue our policies to combat crime and protect the public. In England and Wales, additional people and money will be available to the police next year. The provisions of the Criminal Justice Bill will enhance the courts' powers to deal effectively with offenders. We have a growing and substantial programme of crime prevention measures, but effective action against crime needs the wholehearted support of everyone, as much in England and Wales as in Scotland.
Mr. Kirkwood : Does the Minister recognise that there is concern about the extent to which juvenile crime is increasing? Will he acknowledge that nearly half all recordable offences are committed by persons under the age of 21 and that the peak offending ages are between 15 and 18? Has the Home Office considered looking at the non-judicial tribunal system and the children's hearing system in Scotland, which is child centred and family based and provides a way of breaking into the cycle of recidivism which seems to bedevil criminal statistics?
Mr. Patten : For these purposes, Scotland is a different country with a different criminal code. We are always prepared to listen to what goes on in different countries and learn from it. I have looked at the possibility of introducing children's panels here, but there are successful alternatives, such as the use of cautioning. About 90 per cent. of those aged between 10 and 13 coming into the hands of the police are cautioned rather than proceeding to a court hearing of any sort. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that about half the crimes in England and Wales are committed by those under 21 and that the peak age for offending is in the mid-teens, but over the past 10 years juvenile crime in Britain has been decreasing and that continues to be the case. I hope that that means that we are
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laying the foundation for lower overall crime figures in the 1990s, as most people who offend as juveniles offend again as adults.Mr. John Greenway : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways of countering international crime, particularly drug trafficking, is greater sharing of information and co-operation among member countries in the EC? What news is there from the Trevi group of Ministers in relation to greater collaboration among our police forces?
Mr. Patten : My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary was in Rome at the Trevi meeting last Thursday and Friday. I do not want to slip too much into Foreign Office communique language, but there were useful and fruitful discussions. Let me raise the veil to some extent by saying that one possibility is that we may have a Europeanwide drug intelligence unit to share information among all western European countries and, I hope increasingly, the countries of central Europe and the USSR.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : Will the Minister introduce legislation to establish a register of authorised manufacturers and holders of skeleton keys? Is he aware that one of my constituents received correspondence saying that keys that suit different types of lock and which will open the majority of British and foreign cars are available somewhere within the United Kingdom? Is not it clear that many who buy those keys will commit criminal offences? Can a national register now be set up as a matter of urgency, or is this just part of the enterprise economy?
Mr. Patten : That was a silly ending to what was a rather good and important question.
Mr. Canavan : It is a key question.
Mr. Patten : If that counts as a joke in Scotland, I am glad that I penetrate only as far as the lowlands on my travels there. The sort of equipment advertised in the letter to which the hon. Gentleman referred does not make it any easier to break into cars than any other material, such as pieces of metal, bent coathangers, and so on. Anyone who goes equipped for crime in possession of such an item--whether it purports to be a skeleton key or anything else that can be used for breaking and entering- -can be charged and convicted.
BBC Licence Fee
4. Mr. Barry Field : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress is being made in the study being undertaken by independent consultants appointed by his Department into the ways in which the BBC spends its licence fee income.
9. Mr. Tredinnick : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions he has had recently with the director general of the BBC concerning the licence fee.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : We had discussions with the chairman and directogeneral of the BBC before we asked Price Waterhouse to advise how licence fee
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increases could be held below the retail prices index. Its report is now being completed and my right hon. Friend hopes to announce his decision in January.Mr. Field : Are not vehicle excise duty and the television licence fee the last remaining bureaucratic and inefficient forms of taxation? Is not it time for the BBC to be set free and allowed to generate its own revenue--perhaps matched by the Government pound for pound, as they have done with their very successful programme of supporting the arts? Would not that create independence and improve efficiency?
Mr. Lloyd : I cannot agree with my hon. Friend that the licence fee system is inefficient. It raises 97 per cent. of the BBC's revenue and will remain its major source of income at least until the corporation's charter is renewed in 1996. The BBC is experimenting with subscription television, but its first essay was not successful owing to the failure of the decoding equipment. Nevertheless, the BBC is pursuing a dozen or more ideas that it hopes to introduce at the end of 1991. If my hon. Friend has any specific ideas that could be effective in raising additional revenue for the BBC, I hope that he will inject them into the discussions on the renewal of the corporation's charter. As they will begin in a couple of years' time, that leaves my hon. Friend with plenty of time to give thought to the matter.
Mr. Winnick : Does the Minister accept that the licence fee represents excellent value for money and, so far as Labour is concerned, is far superior to the alternative of subscription fees, which would undoubtedly be much more expensive for the average viewer? Our only qualification is that pensioners, particularly those on very low incomes, should be exempt from paying the licence fee. That would make it far less of a controversial issue. Any alternative system not offering exemption, such as subscriptions, would certainly be more expensive for pensioners.
Mr. Lloyd : One cannot reach a definite conclusion on different forms of financing the BBC until they have all been thoroughly examined. I agree that the BBC licence fee offers extremely good value for money. As the hon. Gentleman knows, concessionary licences are available to pensioners in local authority warden-controlled homes. The hon. Gentleman should talk to Labour Front-Bench spokesmen who specifically said that there should not be concessionary licences for all pensioners, because many of them have greater incomes than the non-pensioners who would have to pay extra for their licences to cover the cost of the pensioners' concession.
Mr. Andrew MacKay : Is my hon. Friend aware that most people deeply resent paying such a large licence fee and that they will resent even more any increase, particularly as there is an easy way of increasing the BBC's revenue--by allowing advertising on Radios 1 and 2?
Mr. Lloyd : It is not simply a matter of allowing advertising, because the BBC's charter forbids that. We cannot change the existing charter, or consider renewing it in its present form, until it has expired.
Mr. Wilson : Does the Minister accept that, contrary to what was said by the hon. Member for Berkshire, East (Mr. MacKay), a large body of people values the oasis of broadcasting that is free from advertising and commercial pressures? Will he give us an assurance that the
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Government have no intention of introducing advertising into the BBC and thereby reducing it to the same level as every other "income sourced" broadcasting concern?Mr. Lloyd : As I said, the Government have no such intention. All the possible ways of raising revenue for the BBC, including maintaining the licence fee, will undoubtedly be considered when the charter comes up for renewal. I agree, however, with the hon. Gentleman's implication that many people consider the licence fee good value for money--[ Hon. Members-- : "No."] Moreover, research studies have shown that at least a good proportion of people say that they would be prepared to pay more.
Soccer Violence and Hooliganism
Mr. Atkinson : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he plans to introduce new legislation to combat soccer violence and hooliganism.
Mr. David Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on progress in respect of his recently announced legislative proposals to create new offences designed to help control hooliganism at football gounds.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : We propose to create offences along the lines recommended by Lord Justice Taylor in his final report on the Hillsborough stadium disaster as soon as parliamentary time allows.
Mr. Atkinson : Does my hon. Friend recall the violence and destruction that took place in my constituency over the last May bank holiday weekend on the occasion of the Leeds United-Bournemouth football match, despite repeated requests from the police for the match to be rescheduled? Will he include in the proposed legislation a police power to veto the holding of such potentially dangerous matches, which was called for at the time by the chief constable of Dorset?
Mr. Lloyd : I certainly remember that match. It so concerned the former Home Secretary, my noble and learned Friend Lord Waddington--[ Hon. Members :-- "Hear, hear."]--of very blessed memory--that he called in representatives of the Football Association and the league. Those representatives agreed that they would never hold a match when a chief officer of police had asked them not to do so on a particular date or in a particular place. I hope that that satisfies my hon. Friend.
Mr. David Evans : Does my hon. Friend accept that, although his proposals may be acceptable to the Government, the Taylor report was complete nonsense from start to finish and precipitated the demise of small clubs? Would not it be better if these hooligans were taken away and flogged, so that they would not go on inflicting damage on people's property week in, week out?
Mr. Lloyd : Like many other people, my hon. Friend is deeply concerned about hooliganism at football matches and has done much more than most to deal with it. However, I do not think that even he would consider, on reflection, that the Taylor report was complete and utter nonsense and I doubt whether he would want the Government to refrain from adding the offences mentioned in Taylor's recommendations to the list of those for which hooligans can be prosecuted.
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Mr. Lofthouse : Is the Minister aware that the West Yorkshire police force will find it very difficult to control soccer violence, because it is unable to maintain itself at the strength that the Home Office recognises is necessary for an efficient service? Owing to the poll tax rules, by March 1992 there will be 500 fewer police officers on the beat in West Yorkshire.Mr. Lloyd : If the county council is unable to organise its finances to provide the police coverage that it should provide, that is a matter for the council itself. The grant from central Government for police expenditure is 51 per cent. and that local authority receives the same assistance as any other. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that the number of arrests has fallen somewhat over the past year or so, although attendances have risen.
Mr. Randall : Will the Minister admit that the Government have failed the sport of football through a series of errors made in pursuing, through the Football Spectators Act 1989, the mad idea of turnstile cards for fans and in not waiting for the Taylor report to be published before proceeding with legislation, as was positively proposed by the Labour party? Does the Minister accept that the consequences of the errors and U- turns have caused a serious delay in getting much-needed legislation aimed at combating hooliganism on the statute book?
Mr. Lloyd : The Government would have been worthy of blame had they not created the legislative framework to make possible decisions such as the membership scheme. Only part of the Act is rendered unnecessary by later agreements. Other aspects of the Act are on the statute book and are of great use. If the hon. Gentleman will reflect on it, I hope that he will agree.
Mr. Butcher : I hope that my hon. Friend will look further into the causes of hooliganism and the best way of dealing with it. Will he instruct his officials to call upon Mr. George Curtis of Coventry City football club who has a great deal of expertise in this matter? Is my hon. Friend aware that Coventry's policy of treating fans with respect and consideration inside the ground while being strict, fair and immediate in law enforcement outside the ground has worked well?
Mr. Lloyd : It is true that the last people thought of by some clubs are their fans. If they were given much greater attention, as is increasingly the case with most clubs, it is likely that the problems would decrease.
Mr. Hardy : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the Minister's wholly unsatisfactory reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Mr. Lofthouse), I should like to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
Chief Constable John Newing
7. Mr. Maclennan : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will obtain for the library of his Department a copy of the speech delivered at the London conference on crime and policing on 28 November by Chief Constable John Newing of Derbyshire.
Mr. Kenneth Baker : Copies of Mr. Newing's speech have been obtained and placed in the Home Office library. The Government are continuing to support police efforts
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to ensure public confidence through the delivery of an efficient and effective service. I fully endorse the work of all police officers to improve the quality of service and increase the confidence of the public in the police.Mr. Maclennan : Does the Home Secretary share the concern expressed by Chief Constable Newing that there is a crisis of confidence and morale in the police force at all ranks and, in particular, that there is discrimination against women and black serving officers? Does he accept the recommendation--or will he consider it--that after 30 years the time is ripe for a new royal commission on the police?
Mr. Baker : I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's suggestion and I do not accept the argument that there is a fundamental lack of confidence in the police. I appreciate the fact that some recent events--I do not wish to underestimate them if they involve a miscarriage of justice--have attracted a great deal of attention, but it is important to remember that a small number of officers was involved in those cases and it would be wrong to condemn the entire police service on account of that. Over 125,000 uniformed police officers work day in and day out on the streets of our cities dealing with law and order and they deserve our support.
Mr. Lawrence : Does my right hon. Friend agree that Derbyshire policemen are as able and dedicated as any police officers in the country and that the low performance of the Derbyshire police is an appalling reflection on the political control exercised upon them by Labour- controlled Derbyshire county council? It is a warning of what would happen were Labour to win the next election.
Mr. Baker : My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. The chief inspector of police has issued a report on the state of Derbyshire constabulary. It is one of the most worrying reports that has ever been issued. It is not a reflection on the chief constable or the police officers in Derbyshire, but a condemnation of Derbyshire county council and Derbyshire police authority which, for the past eight years, have starved the police of resources. The last major capital building programme of a police station in Derbyshire ended in 1981. There has been no increase in police numbers in Derbyshire since 1987, which shows Labour's priorities when it is in office.
Mr. Janner : Does not the speech of the chief constable of Derbyshire show that police resources and morale throughout the east midlands are crumbling? Is the Secretary of State aware that, because of a series of serious murder inquiries and other stresses on resources, Leicestershire police has a deficit of £1.5 million and last week announced cuts in staff, in policing and in the protection that citizens are entitled to expect? Will he be kind enough to look into the problem of the Leicestershire police deficit and provide us with some help?
Mr. Baker : Since we have been in office, there has been an increase in police strength of more than 26,000 men and women and next year there will be a further 700. Derbyshire was offered an increase in police officers last year but it turned it down, preferring to spend the money on other priorities.
Mr. Shersby : Is my right hon. Friend aware that by failing to provide the necessary support, Derbyshire county council is failing in its duty under section 4 of the
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Police Act 1964? What action will he take as Home Secretary to make sure that it abides by that Act to ensure adequate policing for the people of Derbyshire?Mr. Baker : I am, of course, concerned about that point and have asked the chief inspector to take particular interest in what is happening in Derbyshire. His report showed, for example, that its fingerprint bureau was on the brink of collapse, that its casualty bureau could not withstand any realistic pressure and that many of its police stations were in a disgraceful condition. I ask the Labour party to appreciate that that is what happens when a Labour authority has been in power and places policing right at the bottom of its list for eight years.
Mr. Hattersley : The speech to which the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) referred in his question did not concern, as the Home Secretary chose to interpret it, a collapse of confidence in the police, but the collapse in police morale throughout the United Kingdom. When the Home Secretary begins to talk to policemen, he will discover that that collapse in morale is widespread and desperately dangerous. Knowing as he must, or as he soon will, that one of the main causes of the collapse in police morale is the Government's refusal to implement Edmund-Davies as far as it applied to the police housing allowance, is he prepared to look at that again?
Mr. Baker : The right hon. Gentleman talks about the collapse of police morale, but he should note that the chief constable said that the collapse of morale in Derbyshire was because of the fact that Derbyshire county council has put the police at the bottom of its list for eight years. When the right hon. Gentleman talks of his commitment to law and order and the way in which the Labour party is concerned about law and order, I shall say to him, "Derbyshire", which shows what Labour is like in office.
Weapons
8. Mr. Colvin : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he last met the chairman of the Firearms Consultative Committee to discuss the European Commission's draft directive on the control of acquisition and possession of weapons.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : My noble Friend Lord Kimball has written to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary with the views of the committee on the draft directive. A copy of the letter has been placed in the Library.
Mr. Colvin : Will my hon. Friend confirm that under the draft directive the rights of British shooters, as covered by British domestic law, will not be inhibited in any way? Will he clarify the position on the possession and use of automatic shotguns by British domestic residents and by visitors from overseas and the European Community?
Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend asked a lot of questions, but I think that I can respond by answering the first part. The directive will leave domestic law as the ruling law on firearms in this country as in other European countries. The weapons that are now allowed will continue to be allowed. The directive will deal only with the rules governing the legitimate movement of weapons between countries, with the law of the recipient country determining what is allowed.
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Mr. Ron Brown : Does the Minister agree that it is not necessary to see police walking around Heathrow with large machine guns? It frightens passengers and tourists and it frightens the hell out of me.
Mr. Lloyd : The directive has nothing to do with that point. I think that most people would require that the police use the means at their disposal to ensure maximum security. That factor would determine the reactions of most people.
Citizenship
Mr. Evennett : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the average time taken to process applications for British citizenship.
Mr. Peter Lloyd : The average time now being taken to complete applications is 23 months for registrations and 34 months for naturalisations.
Mr. Evennett : I thank my hon. Friend for his reply, which is somewhat disappointing. Several constituents in my area, particularly those from Poland, were recently told that there would be an 18-month delay in processing their applications. What more can be done and what is being done to speed up the processing of the backlog of applications?
Mr. Lloyd : I agree with my hon. Friend that the situation is unsatisfactory. The reason is the enormous influx of applications at the deadline at the end of 1987, to meet the provisions of the British Nationality Act 1981. The huge influx reached its peak in December 1987 and we have reached the final applications. It is possible that the waiting time will increase a little over the next few weeks. I believe that it will then decrease rapidly because of the steps that we have taken to provide extra staff in the next financial year, to streamline procedures and so on.
Mr. Tony Banks : I put it to the Minister that this is a disgracefully long time in which to consider applications. It is made that much worse because the applicants have submitted their cheques, which the Government have banked and on which, no doubt, they are getting a good interest rate, given the present level. Will the Minister be prepared to look at a delayed payment system, whereby people can at least hang on to the money and pay it when the Government are ready to process their applications?
Mr. Lloyd : The section is running at a loss this year. If we were to make an adjustment according to costs, the charge would have to go up. However, the hon. Gentleman is right in saying that it is a long delay. As he knows, if a Member writes to us about a constituent who is being grossly inconvenienced by the delay, we shall give that application a measure of priority.
Sir Bernard Braine : Is my hon. Friend aware that his first reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Evennett) was most unsatisfactory? Is he further aware that many of us have found that the lengthy delays in processing such applications cause a great deal of misery and heartache? They are totally unnecessary in a well-organised department. Will he do something about them?
Mr. Lloyd : I do not accept the implications of my right hon. Friend's remarks. He knows that the huge influx was
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caused by people all putting in their applications at the same time, when many had had opportunities to do so since 1973. We have to choose the way in which we direct priorities in the Home Office. If my right hon. Friend looked objectively at the situation, I do not think that he would agree that it would be right, for instance, to take away resources from processing applications by refugees, when their future depends upon it, in order to give passports to people who are already properly settled here.Magistrates Courts
12. Mr. Nellist : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will review the operation of the magistrates courts dealing with poll tax cases ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. John Patten : We are keeping the operation of the statutory arrangements under review and we have asked all justices' clerks in England and Wales to provide information about the community charge enforcement work load. Most cases are going very well.
Mr. Nellist : Does the Minister realise that hundreds of thousands of people have been dealt with far worse than criminals in the magistrates courts in recent weeks? In Warrington and in Lymington, people have been dragooned through, eight or 10 at a time. In Hitchin and in Stevenage, the courts have been closed to the public. In a number of magistrates courts from Coventry down to Bournemouth, people have been denied the right of representation. In Grantham last Friday, a man was put into prison, but, unlike a criminal who gets 50 per cent. remission of his sentence and although his only crime was that he was poor and could not afford to pay the poll tax, he will get no remission on his sentence. Will the Minister review the procedures and stop treating poor debtors as if they were criminals?
Mr. Patten : Certainly not. People should pay the bills due to their local authorities. If they do not, they should face the consequences.
Mr. Allason : Will my right hon. Friend tell the House at what level the number of summonses for community charge defaulters is running at the moment in comparison with the number of defaulters whom one would have expected to be summonsed at this time of year under the old rating system?
Mr. Patten : It is not much different. The only difference is that the courts are operating a new procedure and a new set of processes. They have not been aided by hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist) and some of his hon. Friends, who have tried to incite people to disrupt proceedings in the magistrates courts to the maximum of their ability.
Burglaries
13. Mr. Alton : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many burglaries of homes and commercial premises have taken place in the past 12 months.
Mr. John Patten : In the 12 months to June 1990, 477,000 residential burglaries and 427,000 commercial burglaries were recorded by the police in England and Wales.
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Mr. Alton : Does the Minister agree that those figures reveal that the number of burglaries and break-ins has now reached epidemic proportions? Does he further agree that in the urban areas where it is almost impossible to get insurance because of repeated instances of break- ins, it would be worth while for the Department to speak to the insurance companies to try to persuade them to take a rather more helpful view about providing insurance? Does he agree that there is a need to provide burglar alarms for those who cannot afford to have their homes properly fitted with alarms in areas where there is a high incidence of burglary?
Mr. Patten : The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I believe that the British insurance industry could do far more, by the use of premium payments and other methods, to encourage people to protect their own property, which would ensure that people in high crime areas would not have difficulties in obtaining insurance. However, all of us can learn a bit from Merseyside. While burglaries have been going up in England and Wales, as I have already said, in Merseyside, thanks to the activities of 5,000 neighbourhood watch or home watch schemes and to the Merseyside police, the number of burglaries dropped by about 13 per cent. in the last 12 months for which figures are available.
Trevi Group
15. Mr. Archer : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the meetings of Ministers and of the respective working groups scheduled for the Trevi group for the remainder of 1990.
Mr. Kenneth Baker : I attended the Trevi meeting in Rome on 7 December. The cycle of working group meetings will begin again in January under the Luxembourg presidency.
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