| Previous Section | Home Page |
Constitutional Reform
10. Mr. Bill Walker : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has had about constitutional reform ; and if he will make a statement.
12. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received in favour of a Scottish assembly during the past six months.
Mr. Allan Stewart : In the past six months, 19 written representations have been received about constitutional issues. A minority of them were in favour of a Scottish assembly.
Mr. Walker : I thank my hon. Friend for his reply and I welcome him to the Dispatch Box. Does he agree that the representations received from the constitutional convention are flawed in that they do not address the situation affecting the Barnet formula for funding, or the number of Members of Parliament representing Scottish constituencies, and do not deal with the West Lothian question at all? Can he also-- [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. The question will take even longer if we have this sort of noise.
Mr. Walker : Does my hon. Friend agree that the convention is fraudulent and the fact that it has a front man wearing a dog collar does not change the fact that it is fraudulent because it knows that its proposals will never go through the House?
Mr. Stewart : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his welcome. As usual, he speaks with great sense and
Column 282
knowledge. I agree with him entirely on the issue that he has raised. I can assure him that the Government will pay full attention to the views of all sensible people such as, for example, members of the North Tayside Conservative Association.Mr. John Marshall : First, I congratulate my fellow St. Andrean on his promotion to the Government Front Bench. Does he agree that the majority of Scottish people recognise that the introduction of an assembly with tax-raising powers would result in Scotland having higher taxes than elsewhere in the United Kingdom, would discourage inward investment to Scotland and would result in Scotland being the most over-governed part of the United Kingdom and of the European Community?
Mr. Stewart : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his congratulations. I agree entirely with what he said in his supplementary question. Although I do not believe that the people of Scotland generally attach a particularly high priority to constitutional change, my hon. Friend is right to criticise the proposals that have come from the self- elected body to which he refers.
Mr. Ernie Ross : I, too, welcome the hon. Gentleman's return to the Government Front Bench. Of the welcomes that he received from the two hon. Members who sit behind him, the hon. Members for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) and for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker), one seemed to stick in the throat. The Minister can work that out for himself later.
When will the Minister reject the nonsensical view that Scotland receives a greater share of public expenditure than anywhere else in the United Kingdom? It is clear that the south-east of England still receives the largest share of public expenditure, no matter how the figures are assessed. The Minister should read the minutes of the Select Committee on Employment on the London Docklands development corporation. He will then discover the subsidy enjoyed by the south-east. The people of Scotland have spoken. Unless the present ministerial team can get it together, it will be the last time its members sit together representing Scotland.
Mr. Stewart : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his welcome. I do not accept what he said in his supplementary question. I will send him the figures, which show without question that identifiable public expenditure per head in Scotland is far higher than in England and higher than in Wales.
Mr. Dewar : Talking about public attitudes, did the Minister notice that in The Sunday Times --a newspaper which I am sure he reads carefully-- there was an article setting out the results of a MORI poll? It showed that the Scottish Constitutional Convention's proposals attracted three times as much support as the hon. Gentleman's preferred option of the status quo and twice as much support as the nationalists' position. The Minister will be aware that he does not represent direct Scottish participation in Brussels. Leaving aside the unfortunate views of Lord Strathclyde, will he clarify the Government's position and explain whether he stands by the recently expressed views of the Secretary of State that there should be direct Government participation in the form of the Scottish Office in Brussels or whether he supports the Treasury view that that is not necessary and should not take place?
Column 283
Mr. Stewart : The result of the referendum in 1979, which is probably a painful memory for the hon. Gentleman, showed that, when faced with detailed and specific proposals spelling out the disadvantages of an Assembly as well as the claimed benefits, the electorate appreciates that an extra tier of government with extra taxation and all the problems to which my hon. Friends have referred is not the answer for Scotland.The second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question seemed not to arise directly from the main question, although there is a later question on the Order Paper to which it may be relevant. I confirm that the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question was fully and comprehensively spelt out in my letter to him, which naturally had the full agreement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
Self-governing Hospitals
14. Mr. Malcolm Bruce : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce the Scottish hospitals opting for self- governing trust status.
Mr. Michael Forsyth : An announcement will be made as and when the procedures laid down for trust applications have been completed.
Mr. Bruce : Does the Minister accept that there is growing disquiet about the way in which the possibility of self-governing hospitals is being presented in Scotland? There is no evidence that the hospitals, the health service, the patients, the public or the staff want them, but they are being presented almost as a fait accompli.
Will the Minister assure us that, unlike the practice in England, if any such proposals come forward the public, the patients and the staff in the hospital and the catchment area affected will be consulted and their opinions taken fully into account? The people of Aberdeen and Grampian do not want self-governing hospitals forced upon them against their wishes.
Mr. Forsyth : The hon. Gentleman is mistaken on two counts. First, he is mistaken in his suggestion that proposals are coming from anyone other than the consultants and the management. For example, the proposals for the Foresterhill hospital in Aberdeen have come from the consultants and the management, but they have not yet decided whether to submit them to the Scottish Office.
Secondly, the hon. Gentleman is mistaken about consultations in England, just as he is mistaken about consultations in Scotland. All proposals for self-governing status are subject to consultation by the health boards. That has been clearly laid down. I commend to the hon. Gentleman the paper that we have published on the procedures for NHS trusts, which spells that out clearly.
Mr. McKelvey : Is the Minister aware that on 8 December a meeting was held in Kilmarnock city centre at which a poll was taken--it was a proper poll, as advised by MORI--on the opt-out proposals? Some 1,700 people voted, of whom 95.2 per cent. said that they would prefer the hospitals in their areas to remain within the ambit of the Ayrshire and Arran health boards. Only 3.7 per cent. were in favour of opting out, and there were two spoilt papers, representing 0.9 per cent. of the vote. Will the hon. Gentleman take that result into consideration if there are any applications from hospitals in Ayrshire to opt out?
Column 284
Mr. Forsyth : I would not take seriously a poll conducted on a proposal that has not yet been made, when people were not aware of the details. If the hon. Gentleman is accurate with regard to the questions asked, I should be even more cynical about the results. Hospitals which apply for self-governing status will not be opting out of the NHS. They will remain part of the NHS and they will remain under contract to the health boards. They will remain subject to scrutiny of their performance by the health boards.
If the hon. Gentleman were to conduct a poll asking whether people favoured more decisions being taken by local management at local level and whether they favoured resources being determined by those most involved in the provision of services, he might get a different answer.
Mr. Buchanan-Smith : Whatever the merits or demerits of hospitals opting for their own management within the NHS under trust status, does my hon. Friend acknowledge that the position is very different in areas of high population, where there are a number of separate hospitals, compared with an area such as Aberdeen where there is a highly integrated hospital service based on the Foresterhill site? Does my hon. Friend agree that that creates different circumstances and may I have his undertaking that that aspect will be taken into account if proposals are put forward?
Mr. Forsyth : My right hon. Friend will be aware that Foresterhill is an example of a hospital which was created and brought into being by the community. It was initiated through the efforts of the community. Self- governing hospitals are about recreating the possibility for communities to be involved in the management and organisation of their hospitals. I am not surprised that Foresterhill has shown great interest in the opportunities that the Government are making available.
Mr. Galbraith : The Minister's response exacerbates our worries, both about consultation and about links with the local community. The reality is that opted-out, self-governing hospitals will be run from the centre--the Scottish Office will decide the priorities and processes by diktat.
The Minister's response about consultation in Kilmarnock highlighted the problem. What will be the consultation on opting out? Will it include the community, the trade unions, the churches, the regional councils and the district councils? Whose views will be taken into account and what weight will be given to them? In reality, will not the decision be made by a small clique on the health board and rubber-stamped by the Scottish Office?
Mr. Forsyth : The hon. Gentleman may go on saying that self- governing hospitals will be run by the Scottish Office, but that simply is not true. They will be independent trusts operating under contract with the health boards and subject to the Secretary of State's direction only if they fail to meet particular standards of patient care. The hon. Gentleman knows full well the position on consultation. Any proposals for self- governing status will be subject to consultation ; trade unions, churches, the community and anyone else who wishes to comment will have an opportunity to do so. I do not wish to embarrass the hon. Gentleman, but he himself has put forward some interesting ideas for the independent management of out-patient clinics and the
Column 285
devolution of management to local level. Painful though it may be, he should therefore acknowledge that the proposals for self-governing status are very much in line with the thinking that he himself advances, even if he cannot bring himself to congratulate the Government on them. We look forward to the conversion that the Labour party underwent in relation to school boards being repeated with regard to NHS trusts.European Regional Development Fund
15. Mr. Knox : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total value of grants that Scotland has received from the European regional development fund since its inception.
Mr. Allan Stewart : As at the end of November 1990, the total commitments secured for Scotland from the European regional development fund for the years 1975 to 1990 stood at £953 million.
Mr. Knox : Can my hon. Friend say how that compares with other EC countries?
Mr. Stewart : I can reassure my hon. Friend on that point, because Scotland's share compares extremely favourably with that of other members of the Community. For example, as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) knows, EC statistics show that Scotland has secured more than six times as much regional fund commitment as Denmark. That shows how well the present arrangements are serving Scotland.
Mr. Beggs : I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. Will he take the earliest opportunity to visit Larne harbour in my constituency, where European regional development fund grants have helped in the provision of terminal facilities and have enabled us to cope with 322,000 commercial vehicles and 300,000
passenger-accompanied vehicles annually? That large number of ro-ro vehicles is using the Larne-Stranraer corridor. Will he seek further grant aid to provide matching facilities for passengers and freight transport on the Scottish mainland?
Mr. Stewart : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his welcome, and what he says is interesting. I must admit that I am not fully acquainted with all the details that he has given, but I will acquaint myself with them and be in touch.
New Town Development Corporations
16. Mr. Ingram : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met the chairmen of the Scottish new towns development corporations to discuss the timetable for wind-up ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Lang : I last met the chairmen of the Scottish new towns on 14 December 1990. The timetable for wind-up remains as stated in the Government's White Paper, "The Scottish New Towns : The Way Ahead".
Mr. Ingram : Is the Secretary of State aware that what the 42,000 tenants of the new towns want for Christmas is the right to choose the district council at the time of wind-up? Will he take that into consideration and give them that choice when the time comes?
Mr. Lang : The choice of many new town tenants in recent years has been to move from tenancy home
Column 286
ownership and that may well continue. What is important is not to foreclose on any options at present. We have not ruled out the possibility of transfer to the district council at a later date, but we think that the matter should be decided nearer the end of wind -up rather than now.Pittenweem Harbour
17. Mr. Menzies Campbell : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received in the last 12 months about the future of Pittenweem harbour.
Mr. Michael Forsyth : Two people have written to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State about Pittenweem harbour.
Mr. Campbell : Does the Minister understand the great uncertainty being created in the fishing industry in my constituency as a result of the absence of concrete proposals for the improvement of Pittenweem harbour, particularly with regard to safety and the hygiene requirements that will be imposed after 1992? Will the Secretary of State take a direct interest in the matter and ensure an early resolution of the problem so that the fishing industry in my constituency will have a proper opportunity to continue to provide the service that it provides for the community at large?
Mr. Forsyth : My right hon. Friend's predecessor as Secretary of State visited Pittenweem in November and met representatives of the fishing industry and my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State also plans a visit in the near future. As the hon. and learned Gentleman will know, the proposed scheme is ambitious and costly, and the regional council has been asked to review it with a view to presenting rather more viable plans.
Self-governing Hospitals
18. Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applications or expressions of interest have been made for hospitals and other national health service units to change to self-governing status.
Mr. Michael Forsyth : There have been four expressions of interest in NHS trust status.
Mr. Canavan : How can the Minister possibly justify the proposals of the Royal Scottish National hospital management team, most of whom have no first-hand experience of patient care, especially when those proposals have been resoundingly rejected by 96 per cent. of the staff and by virtually all the patients' relatives who have written to or contacted me to express their concern about the threat to mentally handicapped patients? They surely deserve the security and continuity of funding which can best be guaranteed by keeping the hospital fully integrated with the national health service under the existing arrangements.
Mr. Forsyth : I do not know how it is possible for people to reject proposals that have yet to be forthcoming. The hon. Gentleman is wrong to seek to cause anxiety about the quality of care for mentally handicapped people in his constituency and to misrepresent the proposals as coming only from management. They have come from management and also from all the consultants concerned, because they believe that by going for NHS trust status they will be
Column 287
able to improve the quality of care. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I would want to study the proposals in detail before reaching a conclusion on whether they are the right ones.Mr. Doran : The Minister seemed to indicate in his reply to the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) that there was a recommendation from staff at the Foresterhill site--one of the four hospitals to which he referred--that that hospital should adopt the course of opting out. The Minister is well aware that the widespread opposition in Aberdeen includes medical staff in the hospital, but it is widely believed that they have changed their opinion because of the carrot dangled by the Scottish Office of extra money or special funding arrangements to meet shortfalls and the pressing need for capital. Will the Minister confirm what special financial or other arrangements have been offered to hospitals opting out?
Mr. Forsyth : No special arrangements have been offered to anyone, other than those set out in our White Paper and in our working documents on NHS trust status. As more and more people in the health service identify the benefits that will come from being involved in decision making at a local level and from resources being allocated according to their priorities--as opposed to priorities set by the people above them, at health board or Scottish Office level--they are increasingly considering trust status as a way of enabling them to continue the very professional and capable job that they do. I urge the hon. Gentleman to study carefully the proposals presented by Foresterhill. I understand that two parallel proposals have been developed, one involving continued direct management by the health board and the other involving self-governing status. I am sure that they will be evaluated on the basis of which will provide the best deal for patients in Aberdeen, and that is right and proper.
Rented Housing
19. Mr. Graham : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what assistance he will give to councils in Scotland that wish to build more houses for rent.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Provisional capital allocations of £415 million for local authority investment in council housing in 1991 -92 were announced earlier this month. Authorities wishing to use those resources to build council houses are free to do so.
Mr. Graham : When right hon. and hon. Members leave the House today, we shall return to nice, comfortable homes, plenty of money and probably a good Christmas turkey, but will the Minister acknowledge that many
Column 288
thousands of homeless people are suffering the consequences of the Government's disastrous housing policy in respect of rented accommodation? When will the Minister stand up and be counted and ensure that the homeless can get a place to stay or a decent home at an affordable rent? It is up to you, Minister, to give them some hope.Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : First, some confirmation of the problem was given by the director of housing of Glasgow district council, who is quoted in today's Glasgow Herald as saying that some
"9,000 council homes are empty in Glasgow district".
He suggested that the figure could increase to 20,000. I suggest to the House that those houses should be brought back into use. If the council feels that it does not have sufficient resources, it should consider making arrangements with housing associations, or with the private sector, to bring them back into use. I strongly endorse what the director of housing of Glasgow district council has said in that regard.
No one should be under any obligation to sleep rough. The Salvation Army has confirmed that places are available in hostels in Edinburgh and Glasgow if those concerned wish to take up the offer.
Local Government Finance
20. Mr. McAllion : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects the review of the operation of the poll tax in Scotland to be completed.
Mr. Allan Stewart : The timetable for the review of the community charge is under consideration.
Mr. McAllion : Did the Minister read the report in Monday's Financial Times, which said that the Government's own civil servants favour a return to the old rating system, with a staged transfer of education from local to central Government? Is that report accurate and, if so, will the Minister support its application in Scotland?
Mr. Stewart : I do not comment on newspaper reports--
[Interruption.] --necessarily. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the hon. Member for Eastwood well remembers rating revaluation in Scotland.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker--
Mr. Dalyell : It arises out of questions.
Mr. Speaker : That may be so, but I will take points of order arising out of questions, or any other points of order, after the statement.
| Next Section (Debates)
| Home Page |