House of Commons Hansard Debates for 16 Jan 1991

Mr. Arnold : Is not it encouraging that, at a time of considerable turbulence around the world, Latin America has quietly got on with the job of reintroducing democracy and coping with its economic problems? Is not it a shame that we are not to see a clean sweep? It is high time that Fidel Castro and his socialist regime in Cuba stood down in favour of elections there.

Mr. Garel-Jones : My hon. Friend is right. It is encouraging to see democracy taking root in that way in Latin America and to see liberal, social market economic policies being introduced alongside that. My hon. Friend is right. Perhaps the reason why the Cuban people still tragically labour under a communist/socialist regime is that those regimes, as we saw in Nicaragua, are rejected by the people when subjected to the democratic process.

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Mr. Corbyn : Does the Minister recall that just over a year ago a large number of American forces invaded Panama, have since occupied that country installing their own puppet Government and subsequently vetoed United Nations action to condemn that invasion? What pressure is the Minister putting on the United States to withdraw all its forces from Panama, to guarantee the 1977 treaty signed by President Carter and to ensure that the people of Panama can elect a Government of their wishes not that of the United States army?

Mr. Garel-Jones : Perhaps the hon. Gentleman might care to recall that the Government in Panama were elected and the United States action, which was warmly supported at least on the Government Benches, was an action to restore a democratically elected Government to Panama.

Soviet Union

11. Mr. Anthony Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what particular assistance the United Kingdom is giving to the Soviet Union to help feed its people.

Mr. Hurd : The £20 million British know-how fund for the Soviet Union was announced in November last year. Its disbursement is under review in the light of recent developments in the Baltic states on which I shall be answering a private notice question shortly.

Mr. Coombs : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the main reason why a country so vast and rich in resources as the Soviet Union cannot adequately feed its people lies in the inefficiency, inflexibility and corruption of the Communist regime--a regime which the Soviet Union now appears to want to impose by force on the Baltic republics? Does he agree that it is appropriate that all economic assistance and trade credits should be suspended forthwith until there is proof positive that the Soviet Union is prepared to act in a civilised way without the use of force against Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in particular?

Mr. Hurd : It is true that food shortages in the Soviet Union are the result not of low production but of a collapsed system of distribution and that is why we thought that that was a sensible way in which we could help. It is in our interests that the Soviet Union should get on with perestroika and glasnost, but we must make it clear both as a country and as members of the Community, that we cannot be expected to help if the Soviet Union is returning to repression in the Baltic states.

Mrs. Margaret Ewing : While we welcome the money made available to the know-how fund, is not £500 million in aid also going to the Soviet Union through the European Community? Would not it have been helpful therefore, if, instead of answering a private notice question asked by several hon. Members, the Foreign Secretary had given us a clear statement of the British Government's view and that of the European Foreign Minsters in their discussion in Brussels, particularly in light of what the Foreign Secretary has said? Many of us believe that in 1991 we are witnessing a repeat of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968.

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Mr. Hurd : The worry is there--the hon. Lady is quite right--but I do not think that it is a confirmed worry yet. However, I shall make our position more clear in a few minutes.

Mr. William Powell : Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people in this country are absolutely appalled by the murders that have taken place in Vilnius in the past few days and that they would find it very hard to understand if the British and other EEC Governments continued to provide economic support for the Soviet Union without a firm understanding that such behaviour will never be repeated?

Mr. Hurd : I agree that acts of repression of that kind, for which the Soviet Government must take responsibility, whoever actually gave the orders that resulted in the deaths, are not compatible with the kind of co- operation and help that we, Europe and the United States have set in hand.

Mr. Harry Ewing : The Foreign Secretary says that he is considering the £20 million fund and that he is listening to the plea from his own Back-Bench colleagues for him to reconsider economic aid to the Soviet Union. Does that mean that the Foreign Secretary is thinking about imposing sanctions that he is convinced will persuade the Soviet Union to change its course of action?

Mr. Hurd : We decided recently to give certain limited help, both as a country and as part of the Community, to President Gorbachev's Government as a reforming Government. Were they to turn their back on reform and continue along the path of trying to repress opinion with tanks, obviously it would not be possible to continue our part in that effort.

Mr. Cormack : Will my right hon. Friend seek a very early meeting with the Soviet ambassador and ask him to the Foreign Office? Will he tell him that there is enormous goodwill in this country towards the Soviet Union, but that the golden opinions that Mr. Gorbachev has brought over the past three or four years are now at risk and that, unless things are put right in the Baltic states, that goodwill will be quickly dissipated?

Mr. Hurd : I did that in my own language with ambassador Zamyatin on 8 January.

The Gulf (British Hostages)

12. Mr. Beith : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the arrangements that were made to deal with United Kingdom hostages returning from the Gulf.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : Within three days of the Iraqi decree of 9 December that westerners were free to leave, more than 700 British nationals were safely evacuated from Iraq and Kuwait. The British embassy in Baghdad helped to obtain exit visas and chartered a number of aircraft. It also obtained places on regular flights and planes chartered by other western countries. The embassy in Kuwait, with invaluable help from the wardens, organised the movement to Baghdad of those who had been in hiding. On their arrival in the United Kingdom, the hostages were met by representatives from the Foreign Office, the Department of Social Security and the Ministry of Defence, as well as a number of non-governmental

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organisations, including the Gulf Support Group and the Red Cross. All immediate requests for assistance were dealt with on arrival so that nobody was without funds, accommodation, medical care or general advice.

Mr. Beith : Is the Minister aware of the enormous relief of families that the hostages are at last home, some of them as recently as within the past few days? Will he convey the thanks of hon. Members and families to officials, particularly those in Baghdad and Kuwait, who worked under such great difficulty to help to bring that about? Will officials continue to be available to help hostages who have been through such a difficult and traumatic time? Will he also have a word with the Chancellor so that they will not face income tax bills because they were out of the country for less than the 12 months that they expected to be working away?

Mr. Hogg : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the three points that he has made. I am grateful also, on behalf of the Foreign Office, for his kind remarks. As regards future problems encountered by returning hostages, of course a number of agencies are available to help and are anxious to help. However, if there are any matters in which the Foreign Office can help in particular, the emergency unit is still available for that purpose. As regards the hon. Gentleman's point about income tax, it is an important point which the Treasury is considering at this moment.

Mr. Ian Taylor : Will my hon. and learned Friend accept the best wishes from my constituents who were inconvenienced by being held hostage until the last minute in Kuwait? Will he also make public his belief that the Government will encourage private companies to do their best for people who were held hostage? It has come to my notice that, in one or two cases, when they have returned, hostages have not found the generosity of spirit which I am sure the Government would encourage private employers to offer.

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend makes a very important point. I certainly underscore what he has said.

Mr. Graham : Will the hon. and learned Gentleman do something about Customs officers who stopped a constituent of mine on arrival at Gatwick airport after he had escaped from Kuwait? He was incarcerated at the airport for over two hours and was fined £145 for possession of a video camera. I asked the Minister to intervene, which he did, and the fine was stopped. Nevertheless, will he ask Customs and Excise officers to act with sensitivity in future incidents? My constituent was treated deplorably and an apology was not good enough.

Mr. Hogg : I had the advantage of being present when the three aircraft came back and I had the opportunity of seeing how the returning hostages were treated. In all the cases that I saw, the Customs and Excise officers behaved with great sensitivity. I did not see anything that would justify the criticism that the hon. Gentleman has made, but I am happy to accept that there may have been the occasional lapse, and I am sorry about it. In the generality of cases, people were treated with great sensitivity. I talked to the officers at the time and it was clear that that was their purpose.

Mr. Hind : I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will accept thanks, particularly from people like me who had relatives amongst the hostages, for the efficient way in

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which they were removed from Iraq. I was grateful for the discretion of my hon. and learned Friend's Department. Bearing in mind the sensitive work that many hostages were carrying out in Iraq, can he tell me whether his Department, as well as the Ministry of Defence, talked to hostages who could perhaps provide useful intelligence for the armed forces during the forthcoming war, should it take place?

Mr. Hogg : As to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, the answer is yes. The MOD had debriefing teams available and has discussed matters with many of the returning hostages. On the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I am grateful for his kind remarks, but may I say that many voluntary agencies played a distinguished part in helping the refugees? I mention particularly the Salvation Army, the Red Cross and the Gulf Support Group with whom my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Hayward) was so closely associated.

NATO

13. Mr. Andrew Welsh : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on his Department's policy on the future of NATO.

Mr. Hurd : NATO will remain the cornerstone of our defence, resting on a collective military structure which includes north American forces based in Europe. NATO is adapting to the changed circumstances and the Europeans expect to take on a greater responsibility within the alliance.

Mr. Welsh : Does the Minister foresee any out-of-area role for NATO, requiring changes in the original Brussels treaty? Will he state the implications for NATO of the current tragic position in Lithuania and the Baltic states?

Mr. Hurd : I do not foresee any treaty change in regard to the point that the hon. Gentleman raised, but I believe that NATO will need to take greater account of possible threats to it from out of area, including the area to its south. We are coming back to the Baltic states in a moment. I do not see a particular responsibility for NATO there.

The Gulf

14. Sir Hal Miller : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the situation in the Gulf following the expiry of the period set by the United Nations Security Council for Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait.

16. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the situation in the Gulf.

Mr. Hurd : I refer my hon. Friends to the answer I gave earlier.

Sir Hal Miller : Will my right hon. Friend make it plain that if there is a wish to preserve peace, to protect property and to prevent damage to the environment, all that can still be achieved if Saddam Hussein withdraws from Kuwait, and that we have no long-term intentions of remaining or exercising any colonial influence in the area?

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Mr. Hurd : My hon. Friend is entirely right. Our aim is simply to carry out the repeatedly restated aims of the United Nations and bring about the withdrawal of Iraq from Kuwait and the restoration of the Kuwaiti Government.

Mr. Greenway : In evaluating the state of morale of the Iraqi forces, has my right hon. Friend taken account of press reports of large- scale desertions and low morale in those forces? What effect does he believe that that would have on the war, if it comes about?

Mr. Hurd : Morale is certainly patchy. I noticed that after his recent visit to his forces in the Gulf, President Saddam Hussein found it necessary to give them all a considerable pay hike. I am not sure that that is a good sign of future morale.

Mr. Galloway : When I was leafing through the list of the legitimate Government of Kuwait I discovered that 11 out of the 12 top Ministers and three out of the four provincial governors had the same surname--as-Sabah. That is not so much a one-party state, more a family business. I was wondering whether the Secretary of State had any plans, if--it is a big if- -there is any Kuwait after the war which was declared in the House last night, to encourage a democracy in Kuwait which might be worth the lives of those who will die for it.

Mr. Hurd : Before the hon. Gentleman thinks himself so pleased with that question, he should recognise that it is for not the British Government but the Kuwaitis to make such plans and that they have done so. If the hon. Gentleman knew about the subject, he would be aware of

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the conference held in Jedda recently attended by Kuwaitis of many strands of opinion. The conference looked forward to the restoration of the 1962 constitution. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will now turn his attention to the constitutional arrangements in Baghdad.

Mr. Nellist : Leaving aside my total opposition to this war, will the Foreign Secretary make the following suggestion at the next meeting of the war Cabinet? As war is not only terrible but terribly profitable and many companies, especially arms and oil companies will make a great deal of money in the weeks ahead, could that money be put to public good-- confiscated if necessary--so that hospital beds that have been closed can be reopened and so that there is not competition between civilian patients and casualties returning from the Gulf? That would show the hundreds or perhaps thousands who will be bereaved in the weeks or days ahead that their sacrifice is worth more than mere shareholders making rich pickings out of the next few weeks.

Mr. Hurd : If the hon. Gentleman suggests that the purpose of the Government's policy, supported by the Opposition Front Bench to this time, has anything to do with the point that he makes, he is wrong.

Mr. Nellist : I was referring to the effect, not the purpose.

Mr. Hurd : The effects are substantial. The effects of any war are substantial and must be dealt with equitably. That does not affect the principle that the House debated and approved yesterday.

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