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invasion or attack for nations. For peoples, it requires the recognition of their identity and their right to self- determination in their own homeland. Stability in the middle east demands, in short, collective security operated through a United Nations with the influence to achieve political resolutions to disputes and the power to deter aggression. That influence and power cannot be wielded by one nation or by a group of nations--certainly not a grouping of nations--from outside the middle east.It would never be wise, desirable or feasible for the United States or any power to attempt the task. Indeed, for reasons of practicality as well as reasons of principle, it is clear that no power has any realistic ambition to assume such a role. Although the United States of America, like Britain, the Soviet Union and other countries, can and must therefore help in providing, through the United Nations, the architecture of collective security in the middle east, the construction--the actual task of building- -is really going to have to be done by the countries of that region. For reasons that everyone here will readily and sadly recognise, no task is more challenging to the world community. As the Prime Minister said, that task has in no way been made easier by the events of recent times.
Frankly, in all the years of tension, conflict and deadlock, there has never been a better time to address the question and, more important, there has never been a time when there was more necessity to address the question. The intractability of the continual crisis of the middle east has caused deep concern for decades, but, because the insecurity and the suffering of that crisis was the plight of others, those wars were often merely regretted and even more often tolerated. Surely that cannot continue where instability in the middle east has now pulled half the world into war. Certainly, when men and women from our country are in the midst of that war and in the midst of its perils, Britain, under any Government, must insist upon effective international efforts to overcome that lethal instability.
We not only have a general responsibility to do that as part of the world community ; we have a right to do it, and anyone who does not understand that is ignoring the risks being taken and the sacrifices being made now by British forces in the middle east. Their risks provide the right for direct participation and influence--insistent influence--on the achievement of a durable and just settlement of the disputes of the middle east. That new dimension--
Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch) : I find nothing at all in the Leader of the Opposition's speech with which I would disagree, but will he agree with me that the United Nations resolutions must be the basis for the future peace of which he speaks and for which we all pray? Resolutions 242 and 338 must be the basis and we must get cross-party agreement on this. Would the right hon. Member also agree with me that both Lebanon and Syria are entitled to the return of their lands, which have been occupied in flagrant violation of the United Nations resolutions, just as has Kuwait?
Mr. Kinnock : I am grateful to the hon. Member. The purpose of the context of an international conference--I will come to that in a moment--is not only so that we get the substance of resolutions 242, 338 and 681 as the basis upon which to discuss the future security structures of the Middle East, but so that there is also a real opportunity for
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bilateral and multilateral discussions to achieve just those purposes of durable security for which countries throughout the region are searching. I know that, in this House, there is a real readiness to provide energy to that area.Mrs. Edwina Currie (Derbyshire, South) : I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Before we leave the list of things that we would all like to see happen in order to achieve peace, would he agree that we must not forget the problems of Lebanon? To this end, one of the objectives should be to obtain the release of the hostages, including Terry Waite and others, who have been held for four years.
Mr. Kinnock : I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving me the opportunity to say what I intended to say later--to remember those, both from our own country and from other countries, who are being held hostage in Lebanon, and to express the hope that efforts that are being made, both here and elsewhere, to secure their release will bear fruit as soon as possible.
There is this new dimension to the treatment of vexed problems of the Middle East produced by the fact of war and our forces' engagement in that war. That new dimension must be recognised by all the countries in the region, including Israel. Last week, with his terror bombing of Israel, Saddam Hussein hoped to suck that country into the war and by so doing cause a fracture between the Arab and non-Arab members of the anti Saddam Hussein coalition. He also wanted to add to Israeli insecurity and to make Israel even less disposed to participate in an international conference.
Thus far, his first objective has not been realised, partly because of the resilience shown by the Israeli Government in the face of great provocation and partly because of the resilience shown by the leaders of Arab countries in the coalition. Saddam Hussein must continue to fail in his enterprise. Israel's decision not to make a pre-emptive attack on Iraq before 15 January and the conduct of the Israeli Government since, despite Iraqi missiles falling on Israeli territory, has demonstrated wisdom which is worthy of respect from the whole world.
Israel now has every reason to continue with that course. As the Prime Minister said, it is evidence of strength and not weakness. The security, economy and, as others have pointed out, democratic integrity of that country require that Israel become a full part of international efforts to achieve a just and durable solution to the condition of the Palestinian people.
When Israel has been subjected to attack and remains a target, and when the Palestinian Liberation Organisation has such close association with Saddam Hussein, no one can or should underestimate the resistance to change. But the present condition is and has been unsustainable for a very long time. The interests of the region and the world community are direct and urgent, and the war in the Gulf banishes any possibility that there can be a return to pre-war conditions when the fighting ends.
Ms. Clare Short (Birmingham, Ladywood) : We all share my right hon. Friend's views that the restraint shown by Israel is very welcome, so that the war does not escalate. I also share his view that we have to look to a just settlement in the Middle East, but would he repeat to
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Israel our demand that it too should also abide by the Geneva convention and cease to breach it in its treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories?Mr. Kinnock : I have put that point not only to the Israeli Prime Minister and other representatives of the Israeli Government but to previous holders of that office. My hon. Friend will be aware that her opinion, which is shared by hon. Members on both sides of the House, is, remarkably in some ways but certainly commendably, shared by a large section of the Israeli population, the Israeli Labour party, and people associated with the Likud.
It is of this that Abba Eban and others speak when they talk about the democratic integrity of the state of Israel. That has rightly been a source of respect for that state and that is the basis of our demand that the integrity of Israel, and its security and existence, are accepted and recognised. On that basis, we ceaselessly appeal to the Israeli Government and forces to ensure that all international conventions are accepted and applied, without exception.
Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West) : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Kinnock : I am anxious to get on. The Prime Minister was commendably brief, and I shall try not to exceed the time he took. When the war to reverse Saddam Hussein's aggression is over, no effort should be spared in fulfilling those peace aims by convening the international conference and making it effective. As United Nations resolution 681, following resolutions 342 and 338, has as its objective the security of all states in the region, there is another feature of tension in that region that must be addressed in all attempts to solve the wider problems of the middle east. The middle east is packed with weapons. It has been obvious for a long time that there is such a surfeit of weaponry there that armaments long ago stopped being a source of security and became, of themselves, a major cause of insecurity.
Iraq, against which our forces and the coalition forces are fighting, is a terrible case in point. For several years, that country, under Saddam Hussein, has been the second biggest arms importer. Between 1983 and 1989, Iraq bought about $23 billion-worth of armaments from the rest of the world. The Soviet Union was the biggest supplier, providing, among other things, tanks, armoured vehicles, multiple rocket launchers, war planes, artillery, and short and medium-range missiles, including the Scud missiles.
France has provided substantial numbers of fighters,
fighter-bombers and helicopters, armoured vehicles, artillery and missiles of various kinds, including substantial numbers of Exocets. China is a major source of tanks, bombers and ground attack aircraft. Brazil has sold armoured vehicles, armoured personnel carriers and multiple rocket launchers. In this arms bazaar, West Germany, Austria, Italy, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia and South Africa have all sold Saddam Hussein weaponry and military vehicles. In our recent history, while we may not have sold arms, we have sold the means to make arms and to build an indigenous weapons industry in Iraq.
While all that was going on, Saddam Hussein and his regime were inflicting the most ruthless cruelty and oppression on the Iraqi people. They are now suffering
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because of Saddam's aggression against others. They have long suffered because of his aggression against them. The Amnesty International reports have annually reported the murderous details of Saddam's regime. They give details of terrible physical and mental torture. They give evidence of the extermination of whole clans. There are records of children of eight and nine being arrested and then detained for long periods, and of children as young as 14 being executed.Mr. Eastham : The Prime Minister told us that 130 Iraqis had been expelled from the United Kingdom. The north-west has a number of Iraqis who have been living in Britain for a number of years and who fear Saddam Hussein's regime. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we must sincerely hope that the Government will see to it that such people are not exported to Iraq and, thus, ultimately, to their death?
Mr. Kinnock : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think that it has been clear from the inquiries that I and my right hon. Friend have made about the treatment of Iraqi citizens in this country that very great care is being taken to discriminate between those who in many respects are refugees from the Saddam regime and who have every reason to fear return to Iraq and those who have associations with that regime. I am sure that the Home Office will be grateful for the vigilance that Members of Parliament can exercise in defence of the appropriate rights of their constituents, and I know that co-operation will be offered on that basis. Certainly it has been in the case of Iraqi citizens who fear Saddam Hussein and who live in my constituency.
All the list of barbarities compiled by Amnesty International have been carried out with a vile deliberation in Saddam's Iraq. While they were, Saddam Hussein, if not regarded as a bosom friend of the democracies, was certainly not regarded as the outcast that he should be. Surely that must change. Surely there must be a readiness to pull issues of human rights in from the margins of policy and to include them as matters that are central to the diplomatic, political and economic relations between countries.
I make that argument partly because it must be at the core of any concept of morality which we share on both sides of this House, but I am also arguing for change in the status of human rights issues in the conduct of policy because they are matters of material importance, too. If the tyrants of the world rehearse their oppression with their own people, if they do it with the power provided by imported arms and with the confidence that comes from being accepted or even courted by democracies, then they are always the leaders most likely to offend against their neighbours and against the world community. I do not argue for our country to be the world's parson or the world's policeman or the world's probation officer. None of that is feasible. I do say that to supply aggressors or to ignore oppression is, by default, to encourage aggression itself. If that is not recognised--and acted upon--in the wake of this war, much of the talk of a global security order will mean little or nothing. More important in the immediate circumstances, the cause of combating aggression, the cause for which our forces are told they are fighting will dissolve in the cynicism of the men and women who are risking their lives.
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In his Times article last Friday, the Foreign Secretary wrote : "We are acting to uphold collective security and the authority of the UN. We have to prove around the world that the UN is not an organisation that can be discounted when one State is contemplating aggression against another."I believe that that was a statement of conviction from the right hon. Gentleman ; I share his conviction. People are fighting and dying for that principle now. It is being applied with force and must be sustained with determination. That is our task. It is the reason that we want the member countries of the United Nations, and particularly the permanent members of the Security Council, to make cogent plans for a durable peace now, and then, when this war is ended, to put it into effect with deliberation.
The result of this war must be part of the foundation of peace. It must be a basis for the structure of security in the middle east. The innocent people now suffering, and the courageous people now fighting, deserve no less.
Several Hon. Members rose --
Mr. Speaker : Order. Before I call the first Back-Bench Member to contribute to the debate, I wish to ask hon. Members not to come to the Chair to inquire if they are likely to be called. There have been three debates on the extremely important matter that is being debated today, and I propose today to give priority to those Members who have not spoken in the previous debates. It may be possible later, if hon. Members are brief, to call others who have participated in previous debates on the Gulf.
4.34 pm
Mr. Michael Jopling (Westmorland and Lonsdale) : It is a sombre fact that the House embarks once more in its long history on a debate against the background of Britain at war. We must be grateful that the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition demonstrate much unanimity and reflect the widespread support that is to be found within the House and within the country generally for the way in which our troops have begun to engage in a conflict which none of us wanted and all of us hope passionately will soon be brought to an end. We all welcome the Leader of the Opposition's support for our forces.We welcome especially the tribute paid by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the bravery of our air crews in the first week of the war.
Many of us over recent years have been deluged with correspondence that has been critical of the disruption that has taken place in areas that have been subjected to a large amount of low-flying training by the Royal Air Force. That criticism has been accompanied by much anxiety. Low flying causes much disruption of and concern to the majority of people in the areas in which it takes place, but they accept it because they understand the need for it. Surely all those people, as well as those who do not accept low flying at all, recognise now how essential low-flying training has been. The Gulf war has demonstrated already how worthwhile that training was. The training of the Royal Air Force and the success that it has enjoyed have led to worldwide acclaim. Its professionalism is recognised generally. Those of us who live in areas where there is a good deal of low-flying are grateful for the way in which our pilots have been trained.
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Mr. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) : There is widespread agreement in the midlands, which suffers from much low-flying aircraft, that training to fly at low level is essential. My constituency suffers especially from this flying. I hope that the recognition of the need for low-flying training will lead to a review of public thinking.Mr. Jopling : I am sure that that will be so, and I agree with my hon. Friend. He will probably agree that the Gulf war has demonstrated the importance of training our pilots to fly at night as well as at low level. Undoubtedly that poses a problem for the future in areas of the United Kingdom where low-flying training takes place. If low-level training at night needs to be extended, I guess that many people will have to start thinking about the future. Surely everyone understands that it is essential that our pilots are able to fly at low level at night.
Public relations will be crucial during the war. There has never been a time in the memory of most of us when broadcasters have had a greater responsibility for objectivity and fairness. There have been many occasions when Members have been irritated and infuriated by the bias of programme makers. Sometimes those feelings have been justified, and sometimes perhaps not. It is crucial that those in the broadcasting organisations who are in charge of the programme makers are more vigilant than they have ever been to ensure that there is fairness and objectivity.
Ministers have already commendably demonstrated their ability to appear before cameras and microphones in a way that I can never remember being demonstrated before. I do not believe that senior Ministers appeared anything like as frequently during the Falklands campaign as they are doing this time. I pay tribute to all of them for making themselves so readily available to help the broadcasters.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : In this context, "public relations" is an unfortunate term. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that some television journalists and so-called military experts ought to show more restraint and discretion, especially when they use toy weapons with demonstration boards? Perhaps that is what the right hon. Gentleman should be arguing for.
Mr. Jopling : There is a good deal of truth in what the hon. Gentleman has said. I was brought up to believe that an expert is an ordinary man a very long way from home. However, that is another matter.
Secondly, I hope that the broadcasters will not forget what else is going on in the world at the moment. If there were no war in the Gulf, the crucially important events taking place in the Baltic states would cause Members on both sides of the House to call for emergency debates. We must never forget that the Soviet Union is still by far the strongest military power in Europe. In recent weeks we have seen a dramatic change in the control of that military power. I read in a newspaper the other day something that, had it not been for the Gulf war, would have received a good deal more publicity. I refer to the Soviet military's proposal that in the forthcoming year there should be a 25 per cent. increase in its budget.
Mr. David Alton (Liverpool, Mossley Hill) : I agree entirely with what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the danger of losing sight of events elsewhere in the world. I put it to him that the media, too, have a responsibility
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--a responsibility not to harass or pursue families of service men who have been taken hostage. It would be quite improper to put pressure on such families, many of whom have suffered quite enough distress already.Mr. Jopling : The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence said just this morning that the media really ought to lay off these people. Thus, my right hon. Friend got in before the hon. Gentleman and myself. Anyhow, the point is very well taken.
In the case of the Soviet Union, I know that Governments will keep an ever vigilant eye on what is going on, especially in the Baltic states. But so must the broadcasters. The attention of the public must continue to be drawn to events there as well as to the important events in the Gulf.
Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South) : Does my right hon. Friend agree that we could be better informed if the war were not given non -stop coverage? It is important that coverage should be accurate and regular, but not that it should be non-stop.
Mr. Jopling : I do not mind the non-stop coverage, but I am anxious that broadcasters should ensure that the Gulf war does not dominate the news to such an extent that other serious and hugely important situations are excluded.
Finally, I want to make the point that the population of Iraq, as well as the British public, must be properly informed. It is crucial that the Iraqi people, too, be told the truth. We know that Saddam Hussein is not exactly a fountain of either wisdom or truth. We know that what he tells his people is unlikely to help them to understand what is really going on in this conflict. It may well be that what he wants to say is failing to be heard because the allies have destroyed his communications system. I hope so. It is vital that those outside Iraq who broadcast the truth be given every opportunity to speak to the people of Iraq.
That brings me to a mention of the BBC World Service, which at this time has its greatest-ever responsibility and opportunity. I want to refer to some information that I have received from the World Service. I understand that the duration of broadcasts in Arabic was increased by one-and-a-half hours a day immediately after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait last August, and by a further three-and-a-half hours a day from 17 January. That brings the total Arabic boradcasting time to 14 hours, and I certainly welcome that. I gather that transmission in Persian is being increased by 15 minutes and that people in Iraq--especially casual and immigrant workers--are being provided with increased opportunities to find out precisely what is going on.
The World Service tells me :
"We are being hampered by a shortage of frequencies on which to broadcast both Arabic and English. However, due to resourceful work by the engineers we have managed to direct four frequencies at a minimum in Arabic, with six for the important dawn transmission. This has meant depriving other language streams of power, but this has been kept to a minimum."
That is welcome, but I hope that the Government will see that everything possible is done to help the BBC World Service to explain the truth to the people of Iraq, and that all possible facilities will be provided to ensure that transmissions are made at maximum power.
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Finally--and perhaps most important--the Government must ensure that there is not a shortage of frequencies. I am no expert in these matters, but I have to say that, if at all possible, the Government must make further, more powerful frequencies available to the World Service so that it may present the truth to the people of Iraq. That can only help to bring this war to a close as soon as possible, which is what we all want to see.4.47 pm
Mr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil) : I agree with what the right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) said about the Baltic states and about the importance of the BBC World Service. There is another matter on which we agree, but I shall touch on that later.
Today's debate will send our forces a message of united support from the House--and they deserve nothing less. In recent days we have all marvelled at their bravery and their skill. I speak as the Member for a constituency in which there is a very large number of service families, many of whom have loved ones in the Gulf. We admire the very real courage of those families, who have to carry such a terrible burden. They need to know that we are proud of them and that we feel nothing but gratitude for their efforts.
The Prime Minister was right to keep his speech relatively short, and I shall endeavour to do the same. I want to say a few words about the course of the war and about what I think may happen in the next few weeks. Then I want, like the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, to focus to some extent on the nature and shape of the peace that must follow the present confrontation and action. The Government are right to stress that we are in the first phase of this war. Indeed, we are probably in the first part of the first phase. There is no doubt that things are going well, but we ought to recognise that there is still a venomous sting in the tail of the Iraqi war machine and that it will take some time to draw. That has been demonstrated in the past few days. It is right to concentrate on the fact that this operation is not going to be quick or easy. In fairness to all who have spoken from the Opposition and Government Benches, no one has ever claimed that it would be.
In many ways, we are in the easier phase of the war. By saying that I do not intend to diminish the tremendous courage, skill and ability of those who are now flying the air sorties. I have a recurring near-nightmare of a young man in a darkened cockpit hurtling across the desert at 100 ft or less, heading alone towards a target. It must take tremendous courage to do that once, but that is done night after night, after night. We appreciate that courage.
I do not want to diminish in any way the courage of those who are already participating in this war, but we are in the easier phase of what we may face. We are in the remote-control war--the war that is fought at the end of a laser beam and with the newest technology. If we move to the second phase--the war on the ground--it will be fought at close quarters. It will be fought between human beings who can see one another. It will not be fought with the newest technology, but with the oldest technology of all, the brute courage of the ordinary soldier on the ground.
We can expect further desperate attempts by Saddam Hussein to try to widen the conflict as he tries to draw others in and to provoke Israel. The Prime Minister has
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also alluded to Saddam's attempts to try to provoke the allied nations, the western nations and others through acts of terrorism. That will be his determination, and it is right and proper for us to show an equal determination to stick to our war plan, which is now unfolding. It is on time and it has had a measured degree of success. Part of that war plan is, as the Prime Minister rightly said, the important policy of precision targeting--the targeting of military installations. We should understand that we pay a price for that policy, but it is right to pursue it, whatever provocations are levied against us.We have seen an example of that provocation today in the disgraceful scenes on Iraqi television of prisoners of the coalition forces. The Prime Minister was correct--we on these Benches support him--that that act itself may be an infringement of the Geneva convention. I recall that article 7 of the convention specifically states that that type of activity is forbidden. Any question of taking our prisoners and putting them in locations where they may be close to military targets would be a clear contravention of the terms of the Geneva convention. Let the word go out from this House that that would be a crime against the rule of law and that those who perpetrate or are responsible in any way will suffer the due process of law as war criminals afterwards.
Let us consider our prisoners of war who are now alone, unsupported, in the hands of the Iraqis. I have had some small experience of interrogation and what it can mean. It is an appallingly difficult process in which one is alone, unsupported, while under the most immense pressures. I hope and believe that the nation and the press will understand the pressures that those young men are now under. I hope that they will be generous and understanding in the way in which they treat them.
I understand from what the right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale has said that the families of those involved have made a particular appeal to the press to give them the privacy they now need in their moment of terrible concern. I want to speak to some sections of the press. There is probably nothing that they could do that would do more to "support our boys", to put in in their terms, than to give those families, and the families of others who have troops in the area, the privacy to which they should be entitled.
I hope that a section of our press will have heard my appeal and will honour it by ensuring that they provide that privacy to which those families, under that terrible burden, are now entitled.
Mr. Alex Carlile (Montgomery) : Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if we hear British airmen, soldiers or sailors saying anything on Iraqi radio or television, the only effect that should have on us is to increase our contempt for Saddam Hussein as the war criminal that he is already shown to be?
Mr. Ashdown : I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend, who is correct.
It is appropriate to move from discussing the conduct of the war to the peace which must follow it--a point to which the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have already alluded. There will be those who will argue that it is too early to turn our attention to that, but that is not right. We need to begin now to draw up the framework of the peace that will follow. During the second world war, the allies started to talk about peace as early as
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1941, four years before that war ended. I believe that making clear the framework for the peace that must follow will not only help the long-term achievement of that peace, but may help us in the short term in the prosecution of that war.By laying out the terms of that peace, we can and will give justice to our cause now. We can provide reasons that will increase the cohesion of the coalition, particularly in relation to the moderate Arab countries. If we tackle the Palestinian situation with the energy and honesty that is needed, we may undermine Saddam Hussein's capacity to play the Palestinian card. We may be able to reassure Israel that it is the aim of the coalition to assure its security in the long term and that therefore it has no need to intervene in the war. As important as anything else, we may be able to give hope to those moderate forces in Iraq that will replace, or may even overthrow Saddam Hussein, that, in the humiliation of that nation's defeat, there will be no question of carving up that country. We want Iraq to be an integral part of the peace that will follow. What is the nature of that peace? The Prime Minister has called this a just war, but, frankly, I cannot be an arbiter on such matters. I do not know how one judges a just war, but the right hon. Gentleman has described this as such and I accept that. One thing is certain : if this is to be a just war, it must be followed by a just peace. If we have fought this war to remove instability from the middle east we must establish a peace that creates stability. It must not be the job of that peace to retain western influence or to maintain the supply of oil. The primary purpose must be stability, for that is the cause for which we have fought this war. The Prime Minister rightly said that the war is being fought for the authority of the United Nations and, therefore, the peace cannot be a British peace or an American one ; it must be a United Nations peace. It is right, proper and correct that the conduct of the war should lie with those nations whose troops are at risk in that action. However, the assembly of the peace must lie with the United Nations. When we went to war, the Prime Minister said--most hon. Members agreed with him--that it was a war about preserving the authority of the United Nations. If we were not prepared to back that authority with action today, the United Nations's back would be broken, it would be useless and irreparably damaged just when we need it most. However, unless that rhetoric is backed with action to achieve peace, the United Nations will be equally damaged. It will be seen by others to have acted merely as a cover for western forces, which will inflict terrible damage to future confidence in the United Nations.
Mr. Tony Banks : I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but does he agree that the argument that the war is about upholding the authority of the United Nations would be more convincing if more statements were forthcoming from the United Nations through its
Secretary-General? President Bush, instead of standing in front of the stars and stripes, should stand in front of the United Nations flag so that everyone clearly understands what is going on.
Mr. Ashdown : I cannot support the hon. Gentleman's argument. The United Nations has provided the legitimacy for the war, but those who have troops at risk in it must provide the direction of that war until the peace
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is delivered. There can be no other way. I know that the hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends have argued for a pause in the war. That pause would be folly. It is a seductive argument and one to which many will listen, but I am clear about one fact--given the statements from Saddam Hussein, even as late as last night, a pause would simply provide him with room to regroup his forces. We have the initiative in this war, but not without some cost. If we risk losing it now, it will cost the lives of our troops to regain it in future. Saddam Hussein can have a pause today provided that he withdraws from Kuwait. That is the basis on which a pause can be accomplished. I fear that unless we begin to map out the ingredients of the peace--I do not for a moment pretend that this is the aim--it will be not like that of the Congress of Vienna in 1815, which established regional stability, but like that following Versailles in 1918, when the powers that had achieved victory carved up the spoils and laid the ingredients for further instability and the begetting of another war.What, then, should be the ingredients of a just peace? I hope that the Secretary of State for Defence will address that in his winding-up speech. First, a just peace will inevitably be based on the terms of the United Nations resolutions in relation to Kuwait. It cannot be based on anything else. Nor can there be a compromise on that. Secondly, as other right hon. and hon. Members have said, it must incorporate the other United Nations resolutions that are unfulfilled. Thirdly--it might be useful if the coalition forces could make this clear--a just peace would be based on the maintenance and preservation of existing recognised borders. There can be no question of allowing Iraq or other nations, such as Jordan, to be divided up. We must make it absolutely clear that the peace we seek is based on existing, recognised borders.
The fourth element of a just peace would involve the establishment over time of a regional security structure. The long-term aim should be that regional security should be in the hands of the nations of the region. Hard facts mean that that will not happen in the short term. It will be necessary to maintain troops in the area. I welcome the Prime Minister's statement that he does not foresee those troops being ground troops. However, I am bound to say that in that passage of his speech he did not give me the reassurance that I sought, which was that the troops that must remain to maintain peace until a proper, regional security structure is in place should not be left in the region on any basis other than under the authority of the United Nations Security Council. If that is the authority for our troops to be in the area now, it must be the authority for any troops that remain in the area afterwards. I hope that the Secretary of State for Defence will also address that point.
Mr. David Lambie (Cunninghame, South) : How can the right hon. Gentleman guarantee a just peace for the Palestinians on the West Bank when by the end of the year 1 million Soviet Jews will be occupying their area and the Palestinians will be expelled? How will we achieve a just peace for the Palestinians on that issue?
Mr. Ashdown : I wish that I had not given way to the hon. Gentleman. I am coming to that point in a moment.
The fifth element of a just peace is that it should incorporate within it a programme of arms control and
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arms reduction that addresses the questions of the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the sale of arms to nations in this area.I shall turn briefly to the question of Israel. This is the nub of the problem. It is the irreducible problem which we must sort out in the context of a framework for peace that gives stability in the long term. I can see no way to resolve the problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians unless both sides scale down some of their demands. There must be two pillars on which such a peace is based. The first is that Israel should be provided with the means to have security within its recognised borders. In return, the Palestinians must be given self-determination. There is no dodging the fact that self-determination means the right to choose a state of their own. It may well be that those Palestinians will choose some sort of federation with Jordan. That is for them to decide in due course. There is also the question of the Israeli problem with Syria. The bilateral discussions with Syria about the Golan heights with a view perhaps to creating a demilitarised zone, are now more possible because Syria is part of the coalition. Whatever the bilateral agreements between those two nations, ultimately they must be bounded in and protected by the overall settlement. A bilateral agreement which stands alone cannot be the basis.
Last week, I pressed the Foreign Secretary to tell us the aims of the war. He did so unequivocally, clearly and in a way in which I can fully support. I ask the Government to begin to think about defining the terms of the peace that must follow. The Government have said that the war is being fought for a new world order, and we concur. The Prime Minister has called the nation to arms because international law must be upheld, and we agree. Our service men are now in the field, not for Britain, but to uphold the authority of the United Nations, and we applaud and support them. In due course, and at some cost, they will deliver us a peace. It would be a tragedy if we did not know how to use it. It would be a catastrophe if the reasons for fighting the war were abandoned in the peace which will follow it.
It will help both in the prosecution of the war and in the building of a just peace to follow if the allies begin to lay out the framework for that peace now.
5.5 pm
Sir Giles Shaw (Pudsey) : I cannot but contrast the fact that we in the House, widely representative of the British people as we are with every one of us having a constituent involved directly or indirectly, are debating within a few days of the outbreak of war the various elements that have brought us to it with what might be happening in Baghdad, where there is no assembly of any representative, let alone elected, kind which has a chance of offering informed opposition to the Government who have ruled Iraq.
Dr. Godman : What about Saudi Arabia?
Sir Giles Shaw : Yes, many other Arab states similarly have no democratically elected institution. In the light of what we are discussing, it is essential that we keep reminding ourselves why the war has been started following the invasion of Kuwait in August, although I do not wish to go into the niceties of the peace, as did the right
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hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown). Obviously, we are here because of the enormous reactions to that invasion.Never since the end of the second world war has the United Nations produced such a majority in favour of taking action. We are here because we are willed to be a party to this action by nations drawn from all points of the geographical compass, including many Muslim nations. We must remember that although not many Muslim nations are participating in the allied force, their reaction has been amazingly strong. The fact that Gaddafi has shown himself strongly antagonistic to Saddam Hussein's annexation of Kuwait is an interesting, and unique, straw in the wind.
We are here because we are, as we have always been, a firm participator in United Nations activities. We seek to ensure that its resolutions, including 606 and 678, are upheld. We are here, too, because the five and a half months of effort to settle these issues peacefully and the many direct and multiple diplomatic efforts have failed.
Some have suggested that sanctions should have been continued for a longer period. That is possible, but there is no question in my mind that the type of leadership in Iraq would not respond to the threat posed by sanctions. If the large population of 16 million had an elected assembly, the democratic pressures could be observed, but that is not the case. The people of Iraq are used to privation in times of war : it takes much more than sanctions to stir them against their indigenous leadership. Iraq has a large and fertile capacity for food production and, in comparison with other Arab states, can expand it pretty easily.
Above all--as has been said so eloquently today--the scale of the military paraphernalia assembled in Iraq in the relatively recent past would be the last element in that state to be affected by the sort of sanctions that were imposed. It is not surprising that there has been no sign of any real change of mind on the part of the leadership, or of any real advantage in the imposition of sanctions--apart from the time that that has allowed for the preparation of an allied force and its assembly in Arabia as a defender of the UN's endeavour, a deterrent of further aggression and a body that can, if needs must, act as a strong retaliatory unit. This is called "the Gulf war" ; today's Order Paper states merely that the subject of our debate is "The Gulf". That Gulf--a vast and long sea inlet--is certainly a major geographical feature, and is aptly named, but the Persian Gulf is more than that : it is a meeting of civilisations from east and west, Christian and Muslim, Arab and Jew ; the Kurds from the north and Nubians from the south ; rich states and poor states, slave and free.
Those are all elements in the embroidery of history around this extraordinary area, which has been the historic cradle of several civilisations. The region, after all, includes both Ararat and Eden, both Persepolis and Babylon, both Bethlehem and Mecca. It has a violent and turbulent history, which has left the Gulf notoriously unstable. In that sense, the Gulf is an unfathomable abyss ; certainly, it appears dark and full of foreboding to those who unwillingly become involved in it.
"Gulf", however, has another meaning in common parlance. It can signify a divide between peoples ; a lack of understanding between man and man ; the way in which suspicion and mistrust are so easily bred ; religious differences--even within Islam ; jealousy and bitterness
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between the oil-rich states on the one hand and impoverished states on the other. That, too, is a significant element and we ignore it at our peril.It is for those reasons that the course of the present conflict is so difficult to predict. Like everyone here, I am confident that the war will be won, but I am not confident that it will be short or easy. I very much admire the amazing, awesome technology that has been shown to offer a military precision never before achieved in war : long may it continue to be as effective as we believe it to be now. Nevertheless, it is not necessarily likely to persuade 16 million Iraqis to remove the style of leadership that they have endured for more than 30 years. Persuasion and reason may have all on to win the argument when the Muslim faith is seen as being under attack by the infidel outside and by western imperialists--as it always was. That is the sort of reaction that we may face : it is the sort of strength that nations of this character may offer to deal with any sort of attack. We must see it through, however, and we must be absolutely firm in our support for those whose task is to prosecute the war.
We must also accept--again, this is in common parlance--that a gulf is there be be bridged. Is this the time, or the opportunity, for that to be done? To win the war will certainly not be easy, but, as the right hon. Member for Yeovil pointed out, to win the peace will be a Herculean task. Yet the allied cause already includes major, significant Muslim countries that are related to the region--Egypt, Syria, Arabia, Turkey, Morocco, Algeria and Pakistan. All those states will be hugely influential in the ultimate peace described by the right hon. Gentleman. The allied cause is, moreover, underwritten by all the super-powers, which must give it an even better chance of emerging into a satisfactory peace.
The alliance must hold, and must be cultivated through the efforts that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary can make so well to ensure that it emerges victorious at the end of the day. Then, given United Nations support, the prospect of that satisfactory peace will be possible. The winning of a lasting peace will, however, require the patience and dedication of a saint--in God's name, and in Allah's, too.
5.16 pm
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