House of Commons Hansard Debates for 25 Jan 1991

Mr. Robert G. Hughes (Harrow, West) : I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body) on introducing the Bill. I have

Column 597

no doubt that the practices that are used to keep pigs are cruel. That was the main reason why, two years ago, I decided no longer to eat meat. Those cruel methods and the descriptions of them that are freely available for people to see have driven several people to reach the same decision. I mention that point to explain my position. I do not seek to persuade anybody else to take a decision or to change their own way of life. It was my decision. Therefore, I applaud and am sympathetic to the arguments that have been made by my constituents.

Some of the practices that are used when pigs are kept in intensive systems have aroused concern for some time. In March 1988, the Farm Animal Welfare Council published an assessment of pig production systems which examined in some detail, among other things, the stall and tether systems for keeping dry sows.

In stall systems, the sows are kept in temperature-controlled buildings, in individual pens that are closed on all sides and in which they cannot turn around. Bedding is not normally provided in such stalls, as we have heard.

In tether systems, sows are again kept in temperature-controlled buildings and are restrained by tethers around the neck or girth. I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston for showing hon. Members such a tether. Unless one sees the outrageous nature of the piece of chain with its plastic cover, one has no idea of just how cruel it can be. The tether is extremely heavy. The full horror of that device was not entirely conveyed when my hon. Friend explained it on the radio this morning. Nevertheless, anyone who has seen such a tether device must understand that it should be banned as quickly as possible.

Mr. John Townend : I agree with my hon. Friend's remarks about the tether. However, does he think that it should be banned completely? I noticed that my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body) proposes to ban it only in a dry sow unit and not for tethering outside. If it is cruel to tether a pig in that way, is not it cruel to do so whatever the situation?

Mr. Hughes : If my hon. Friend is asking for my view, yes, of course. Anyone who has read descriptions about pigs knows that they are not only intelligent but sensitive animals. There is legendary evidence of pigs knowing that they are going to the slaughter, and crying. There have been some long and, no doubt, accurate descriptions in some of the literature that I have read about the sensitivity of pigs--for example, the way in which they form friendships and can understand what is going on around them. The answer to my hon. Friend's intervention is yes. However, we are not dealing with Bill to deal with the issue that he raised. Perhaps some hon. Members may wish to amend the Bill in Committee, and perhaps the Government may examine that matter as they have done in the past, My hon. Friend makes an important point.

Tether systems were originally evolved at least partly to prevent the bullying and fighting that often occur, especially at feeding time, as my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) has graphically explained. FAWC considered that both systems failed to meet certain welfare criteria to which particular importance was attached. The 1983 version of the code of welfare for pigs stated that keeping sows and gilts in stalls, whether with or without tethers, raised serious welfare problems.

Column 598

I have several problems with the Bill, which I shall try to explain. The first relates to the role and relevance of the European Community. I am rather perplexed. I do not want us to end up in the situation in which we found ourselves with a piece of fisheries legislation that had taken up a great deal of legislative time, only to be told by the European Commission that we could not sustain that legislation. Of course, we had to pass legislation repealing that fisheries legislation. If that were to happen again, it would not be helpful to anyone--certainly not to pigs.

I should be grateful if my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food would explain precisely the situation with the European Community. Do we have full entitlement to pass this legislation? What will be the situation with the regulations that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has promised? The Government have generally supported the introduction of European Community standards on animal welfare. They have an extremely good record in this and other animal welfare matters and in trying to push the European Community for higher standards. The Government have supported the introduction of EC standards on animal welfare, saying that the FAWC report and its recommendations most of which, of course, they accepted should be used as a basis for negotiations and that they would use them as a basis for negotiations when the EC proposals appear.

On 27 July 1989 the European Community published proposals for the welfare of pigs and calves. The proposals for pigs--EC draft 7654/89--were wide ranging and included a provision that sows should not be tethered for four weeks after weaning and that, if individually stalled during that period, they must be let out for daily exercise. The draft did not suggest a general ban on dry sow stalls, while tethers would be banned only from 1999, and the use of stalls generally permitted if one hour's exercise a day was given. The proposals on calves and pigs were debated by the Second Standing Committee on European Community Documents on 8 November 1989. My hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry), the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, said that the Government thought that both sets of proposals were inadequate and would seek modification to them. The European Parliament subsequently sought various changes to the proposals, some of which the Commission accepted. However, the proposals did not cover the FAWC recommendations on sow stalls and tethers. The revised proposals were originally to have been considered at the Agriculture Council meeting last September. But there has been a good deal of slippage and at present there is no firm date for their discussion. Again, I should be grateful if my hon. Friend the Minister will cover that in his remarks to give us some idea of when the Government believe that the European Community will get round to discussing these matters.

In a press notice issued on 10 January 1991, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food said that discussions in the European Community were proceeding and that the Government were still committed to securing Community agreement along the lines of the FAWC recommendations at the earliest date. He said :

"In the last two months a Commission-sponsored seminar attended by welfare and farming bodies from Europe

Column 599

concluded that alternative systems for sows had been developed to the stage where they can safely replace stalls and tether systems. These conclusions will give a major impetus to the development of the necessary Community rules."

That was an extremely welcome statement from my right hon. Friend. I would put it this way. The preconditions suggested by the FAWC for banning stalls and tethers have been met.

There is, of course, a difference between the recommendations of my right hon. Friend and the details of the Bill. I received a letter and a briefing paper from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. In my short time in the House I have listened to various debates on dogs and the RSPCA has mounted campaigns about dogs. I never thought that I would praise in the House a document that I had received from the RSPCA. However, on this matter, unlike in the debates on dogs, the RSPCA has been extremely responsible. The letter from Jerry Lloyd, the parliamentary liaison officer for the RSPCA, is extremly well written. More to the point, it is fair. It points out fairly where the debate is centred. The letter makes two points. I should be interested to hear the response of my hon. Friend the Minister on those points. The first concerns the Ministry's intention to ban new installations from this year. The RSPCA applauds that addition to the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston said, it has been clear to any sensible pig farmer for some time that it would not be wise to install a new system--and scarely any have been introduced over the past three years. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston will accept that improvement in Committee, and it was very fair of the RSPCA to describe that development in the way that it did.

The second point is more perplexing. I refer to the time difference in the phasing-out period allowed in the Bill, that indicated in the statement by my right hon. Friend the Minister, and that suggested by the National Farmers Union. The difference is marginal.

How much difference will it make in reality if the phasing-out period differs? Knowing that the system is to be phased out anyway, would not pig farmers react and change their operations, to achieve compliance on more or less the same date?

Mr. Arbuthnot : My constituency, perhaps in common with that of my hon. Friend, contains no pig farmers--and because of the nature of my constituency, it probably does not contain many dead pigs either. Nevertheless, many of my constituents have written to me to express their concern and interest in the Bill. My inclination is to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body) that the practice in question is outrageously cruel and ought to be stopped as soon as possible. My concern is the difference between the action that would be taken in this country and on the European continent. If we take action that others do not, we might put our pig farmers out of business simply to achieve the marginal difference of which my hon. Friend speaks.

Mr. Hughes : My hon. Friend's latter observation is absolutely right. If we care about the welfare of these sensitive and intelligent animals, and if that is the reason for the Bill, we should be concerned not only about English pigs but all the pigs in the European Community.

Column 600

Our main thrust should be to achieve improvements throughout the Community for reasons of animal welfare, but also because it would be unreasonable to put United Kingdom pig farmers at an unreasonable disadvantage. However, my hon. Friend made one incorrect remark at the beginning of his intervention, because there is one pig farmer in my constituency. However, I am pleased to say that he does not use the methods of which so many of us disapprove.

Mr. Geraint Howells (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North) : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if the Bill receives a Second Reading, the question of timing can be dealt with in Committee? I remind the hon. Gentleman that in 1982-83, the Government told this country's milk producers to change their policy overnight. The Government did not give them an hour's notice of the unfavourable quota system.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. David Maclean) : That measure was imposed bythe European Community.

Mr. Hughes : My hon. Friend the Minister rightly points out that that decision was taken by the European Community and that the Government had no option but to implement it. The Liberals like to suggest that they are the only people who believe in the Community, so it ill becomes them to suggest that we should not comply with its directives. As to the hon. Gentleman's first point, I have no doubt that the timing aspect will be examined in Committee. If it reaches the conclusion that the period suggested by my hon. Friend the Minister is right, why is there a need for the Bill in the first place? Would not we do better to follow the regulations?

Mr. Ivan Lawrence (Burton) : As a Member whose constituency contains not only pig farmers but a population who are very concerned about the welfare of pigs, I ask my hon. Friend whether he agrees that, by destroying or making very difficult the viability of our own pig producers, we shall be letting into the country, by way of substitution, pigmeat that has been produced in a far more inhumane way than any method currently used in Britain? Would not that make a total nonsense of the Bill?

Mr. Hughes : One of the drawbacks of giving way to my hon. and learned Friend is that he puts arguments in a way that I wish I had done. It would be an absolute nonsense if we were to cripple the activities of our own pig farmers, merely to see their products replaced by those of others who are using the methods that we deplore. We must have that very much in our minds before passing legislation that would have the effects described by my hon. Friends on the pig farmers in their constituencies.

Mr. Arbuthnot : One of the topics on which my constituents have also written to me is the transport of live animals. The transportation from the continent to this country of live animals might increase if the proposed legislation is introduced.

Mr. Hughes : My hon. Friend makes a characteristically interesting point, and it is one worthy of research. It should be possible to find out from farmers who produce pigs or other livestock what they would do if confronted with the situation that has been described. If my hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Arbuthnot) is proved right, we would have to consider

Column 601

whether we are doing the right thing. However, there is not that much between the two sides to the argument. No one suggests that tethering under stalls is anything but a cruel practice.

Therefore, I shall finish where I started, and warmly thank my hon. Friend the Member for Holland and Boston for bringing this matter to everyone's attention and for producing the Bill. I hope that the Bill will get into Committee so that the important matters that have been discussed can be further aired during the Committee's deliberations and we can decide whether we are better off with the regulations than we are with the Bill.

I shall add one further point to my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Holland and Boston. The reality of government is that without some pressure, and without the Bill--I do not refer to pressure from lobbying groups but from my hon. Friend and the admirable campaign that he has put together which has culminated in the Bill--I suspect that, at the very least, it might have taken more time to introduce such regulations. The fact that my hon. Friend has been able to campaign, and that my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have responded in the manner that they have, shows that pressure from hon. Members, especially when they are as well informed as my hon. Friend, pays off. That is the way to bring about changes in these important matters.

I welcome the debate and the fact that, one way or another, these cruel practices will be ended. I hope that this is just the start, and that we will begin to consider the enormous cruelties that we impose upon animals in the name of our way of life in this country, and I thank my hon. Friend for introducing the Bill.

12.40 pm

Mr. Michael Brown (Brigg and Cleethorpes) : It gives me great pleasure to speak on the Second Reading of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body) has done a signal service to the country and to the House by choosing this subject for his Bill. There can be few hon. Members who can speak on the subject of pig breeding with more experience than my hon. Friend. I have had to study the Bill carefully. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend), who I see in the Chamber and who represents a constituency similar to mine, I have had to consider this issue from the point of view of a Member of Parliament representing a Humberside constituency which probably contains more pigs than humans. It is probably true to say that, like my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington, I represent more pigs than constituents. Therefore, hon. Members will understand that I have been lobbied by the pig industry on this issue, if not, unfortunately, by the pigs.

I could have made an easy judgment, on the basis that my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) arrived at his conclusions, because there is a large pig industry in my constituency which is an important employer. One would think that, as a result, I ought to be suspicious of the Bill. However, the more that the pig breeders have lobbied him on the issue, and the more that I have studied it, the more convinced I have become that my hon. Friend's Bill is necessary. Of course, I have also received representations from other constituents about farm welfare as it is affected by the Bill. Therefore, I have arrived at a very different judgment from that of my hon.

Column 602

Friends the Members for Bridlington and for Richmond, Yorks. It is unusual for me to be in this situation. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington represent constituencies which are in the same county--north and south Humberside--and which contain a large pig breeding industry. I cannot think of any occasion in the past when my hon. Friend and I have not been on the same side. Perhaps this issue underlines the differences between attitudes on the north and the south banks of the River Humber, and accounts for the reason why the Local Government Boundary Commission for England is seeking a case for the transfer of my constituency to Lincolnshire. Although we both have many pig breeders in our constituencies, we have different views on this subject.

Mr. John Townend : I am sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased to learn that I entirely agree with his idea of his constituency rejoining Lincolnshire. For myself, I should like to see the restoration of East Yorkshire.

Mr. Brown : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's support, but I want now to concentrate on the Bill.

I congratulate the Government on their response to the Bill. It is a classic example of the success that my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston has achieved even before uttering the words, "I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time." My hon. Friend was successful in gaining second place in the ballot. It is no coincidence that since then, just two days ago, the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food issued a press release in the name of my right hon. Friend the Minister stating that

"consultation is now to begin on a pig stall and tether ban. The Government issued today"--

on Wednesday, two days before this debate--

"a consultation document which provides details of proposals to ban stall and tether systems for all pigs. Agriculture Minister John Gummer announced on 10th January that the Government intends to ban new installations and to phase out existing systems by 31st December 1998."

So the only point at issue between the Government and my hon. Friend is one of timing. Everything that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has said publicly shows that his attitude is exactly the same as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston, who has thus encouraged the Ministry to accept the principle of the Bill and to come forward with its own proposals.

My hon. Friend wants to phase out in five years this dreadful way of rearing pigs, but the Government have conceded his point already, so it might be argued that the Bill is unnecessary because the Government intend to phase out the system over eight years--there is a difference of only three years between the two proposals. Nevertheless, I have come to the view that we should allow the Bill to go into Committee if only so that other points such as those raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) can be discussed ; and we might want to extend the Bill to include one or two other aspects of pig breeding.

The evidence in support of the Bill is overwhelming at every point of reference. My hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston quoted from a report by the Select Committee on Agriculture, issued in 1980-81. He was a member of that Committee and, as I speak for and on behalf of pigs today, I must remind the House that I am the parliamentary private secretary to my hon. and learned

Column 603

Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), who was also a distinguished member of that Committee--and I am a defender of all hogs, human or four-legged.

The Select Committee categorically recommended that every effort be made

"to develop the alternative small group system and any other which looks promising as quickly as possible to the point where, whilst maintaining its welfare advantages, it is established as practicable and economically competitive. As soon as this point is in sight notice should be given that close confinement will be phased out over a reasonable but defined period, and the tether and stall and tied stall method be abolished."

I have already quoted the following evidence in an earlier intervention this morning. It is the definitive work on this issue--

Mr. Conal Gregory (York) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I notice that my hon. Friend is repeating what he has already said this morning. We have been discussing this important Bill for more than three hours. The House has a long agenda before it, and there is great interest inside and outside the House in the Domestic Smoke Alarms Bill. Therefore, I beg to move, That the Question be now put.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd) : I must inform the hon. Gentleman that, although I understand his frustration, it is my role in this Chamber to safeguard the business before us and to see that Members who are still rising and who wish to participate in the debate are allowed to do so. I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's motion at this time.

Mr. Ian McCartney (Makerfield) : Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I support the Bill, and I am an RSPCA activist and a vegetarian. I am also a sponsor of the Domestic Smoke Alarms Bill, which is about saving the lives of 700 children a year. I am concerned that attempts are being made by way of a filibuster to wreck the opportunity to debate proposed legislation that could save the lives of many people in the United Kingdom. I hope that we shall bear that in mind and that at some stage an opportunity for debate will be provided for those who support not only the Pig Husbandry Bill but the Domestic Smoke Alarms Bill. We must not lose the opportunity to alleviate the misery of pigs, but we must also take steps to save the lives of 700 people who die needlessly each year.

Madam Deputy Speaker : That is not a point of order for the Chair, but I shall see to it that there is no tedious repetition.

Mr. Brown : But for those two interventions, I might have resumed my seat. In an intervention earlier, I did not speak about the Select Committee on Agriculture. I spoke about the notes for guidance which were issued in 1983 by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. My hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Gregory) may not have realised that the first time that I mentioned the Select Committee report was a few moments ago.

In 1983 the then Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, my right hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), said in his guidance notes to pig breeders that sows should not be kept under the system that the Bill

Column 604

seeks to phase out. Alternative systems such as kennels, straw yards or yards and cubicles will more fully meet animals' behavioural and exercise needs.

My hon. Friend the Member for York will note that I did not draw attention to the latest work on this matter which was issued by the Farm Animal Welfare Council in February 1988. Studies on the whole issue go back a decade and the only question to be answered is about the timing. The other matter to be addressed is the attitude of our European competitors.

I intervened during the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks to say that there is no point in the House--this body of all bodies-- saying that until Europe makes a move we should not do anything. As I have said, we could lead by example and put before the European Commission a proposal for the rest of the Community. We could say that we have passed legislation on the issue and could use our example in making the case for similar legislation throughout the Community.

It would be wrong for us to say that we will not put right an injustice, whether it is in relation to animal welfare or about minorities. It would also be wrong to say that future injustices will not be put right until we have first ascertained that the lowest common denominator has been reached in the European Community. It is important to establish that matter of principle.

I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston on his Bill. I have had to agonise over my decision. If I had to decide on the basis of immediate short-term interests, I suppose that I would take the narrow view because there are many pig farmers in my constituency. That would lead me automatically to vote in their favour and against the Bill. However, I shall not do that. If there is a Division, I shall vote in favour of the Bill because the clear indication from pig breeders is that they are voluntarily moving away from the present system. That is quite right.

12.54 pm

Mr. Ron Davies (Caerphilly) : I applaud the view taken by the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) on the European dimension, and share that view. I congratulate the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body) on his good fortune in coming second in the ballot for private Members' Bills and on his good judgment in introducing a measure which will command support from both sides of the House, despite some of the speeches that we have heard. I confirm the whole-hearted support of the Labour party for the Bill, which will improve the conditions under which breeding sows are kept.

The hon. Gentleman is well known for his concern about, and advocacy of improvement in, animal welfare. He is well-respected both inside and outside Parliament for his independence of spirit and the determination that he has consistently shown in promoting his cause. The Bill is supported outside the House by many people who have been vigorous in their attempts to ensure that their representatives know of their concern and are present to give the Bill a well-deserved Second Reading. They have been the foot soldiers of the admirable professional organisations that have been supporting the Bill. I pay tribute to the necessary and valuable work that they do. The RSPCA, with which we are all familiar, supports the Bill, but it is principally the creation of Compassion in

Column 605

World Farming. That is a lesser-known, but no less worthy, organisation and it must take much of the credit for the popular support that the Bill enjoys.

According to a public opinion poll published three years ago, 88 per cent. of those questioned supported the Bill. There is no reason to suppose that that overwhelming majority will have diminished. The Bill is timely in that animal welfare is moving rapidly up the agenda of the British consumer, thanks, in large part, to these organisations. A piece in Agra Europe on 4 July shows the way that things are moving. It reports :

"The welfare movement in meat production is gathering momentum and producers in the UK, Ireland and New Zealand are already taking steps to meet the expected change in demand. According to the UK Meat and Livestock Commission (MLC), welfare will become the area in which producers put most effort in the 1990s and will make the production of leaner meat a secondary target. Much of the impetus in the UK is coming from the five biggest supermarkets (Sainsbury, Tesco, Safeway, Asda and Gateway), which by the year 2000 are expected to be selling more than half the meat retailed in Britain. Tesco is retailing "Traditional Norfolk Reared Pork", Gateway is about to launch a similar line in pork and beef, Asda is already selling conservation grade lamb and Safeway is marketing organic beef."

I understand the concern of hon. Members who fear that British producers might be disadvantaged against continental competition. However, the argument that if our modes of production are better, we shall be better placed to compete in 1993 is more convincing. There may be a short-term dislocation in the market, but the combination of the welfare argument and the prospects of a better organised and more welfare-oriented system will give our producers an advantage. The hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce) made that point in a speech that was exemplary in every respect.

Mr. Martin Jones (Clwyd, South-West) : Will my hon. Friend acknowledge that many farmers would like a change in the law on pig husbandry because they can see the possibilities and opportunities created by the efforts of animal welfare promoters, the RSPCA and other worthy bodies, which have led to increased awareness among consumers about animal welfare?

Mr. Davies : That is very much so. Those who oppose the Bill have overstated their case. We have to recognise that the Bill is supported by a large number of producers, principally those who have already voluntarily changed to using methods that do not involve the tethering system.

I understand from the producers that the system is unacceptable and will have to be phased out and that it is in their interests to move as quickly as possible away from it voluntarily. They recognise that British agriculture will be better if this measure is on the statute book. There are differences of opinion about the European dimension, and the lead-in period is causing concern. The Government have expressed reservations about the measure. They believe that it should be dealt with in a different way. However, that need not excite hon. Members who have expressed strong opposition to the Bill. The quotation from Agra Europe will have gladdened the hearts of all those who are concerned about farm animal welfare. There can be no arguments against the Bill on welfare grounds. It appears from what was said by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), who is not here at the moment, and by a few other hon. Members that there is confusion about what the Bill covers. It relates

Column 606

only to dry sows, not to sows that are farrowing. Farrowing crates will continue to be used. Therefore, piglets will not be suffocated, due to the removal of dry sows. The argument that the Bill will reduce welfare considerations is not valid.

The debate continues in pig breeding circles about the welfare implications of dry sow stalls and tethers. There can be no argument that in this measure we are balancing what most experts agree is an improvement in animal welfare against a slight temporary economic dislocation. Animals should have the benefit of the doubt every time. We can do no better than refer to the Government's Farm Animal Welfare Council if we wish to obtain independent expert opinion. Reference has been made by several hon. Members to the 1988 assessment of pig production. The FAWC's fourth report says : "Both stall and tether systems fail to meet certain welfare criteria to which we attach particular importance. As a result of their design, the animals housed in them are prevented from exercising and from displaying most natural behaviour patterns ; in the wide range of systems seen by members there was little scope to reduce the continuing stress which can be caused by confinement in these systems We recommend that future trends in housing the dry sow should be away from the use of stalls and tether systems (both girth and neck types) and that the Government should introduce legislation as a matter of urgency to prevent all further installations of units of these designs We recommend that the Government should do all it can to encourage the adoption of alternative systems, whether new or traditional, and the improvement in husbandry skills needed to avoid welfare problems. As soon as it is satisfied that the necessary skills are available, the welfare-related problems have been eliminated from the emerging systems and that they are commercially viable, it should introduce immediate legislation to phase out stalls and tethers."

All those conditions have now been met. The Government acknowledge that they have been met, because they say that they accept the principles of the Bill and that they intend to phase out dry stall systems with tethers.

Unfortunately, in 1988 the Government could not find the time to implement the recommendations of the Farm Welfare Animal Council. However, they can keep good faith with the recommendations if they agree to support the Bill. If they feel that, for whatever reason, they cannot support it, I earnestly hope that they will not use their best endeavours to block it. The Government's acceptance of the Bill would be in line with the recommendations of the Farm Animal Welfare Council and those of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whose welfare code states :

"The keeping of sows and gilts in stalls with or without tethers raises serious welfare problems. It inevitably places severe restrictions on the animals' freedom of movement, denies them normal exercise, can give rise to patterns of abnormal behaviour and very commonly causes injury and leg weakness. Alternative systems, such as kennels, strawyards or yard and cubicles in which animals behavioural and excercise needs can be more fully met, are therefore strongly recommended".

That is the Ministry's code on the welfare of pigs. We could not have a clearer condemnation of the dry stall system.

I am disappointed and surprised that, following the introduction of the codes in 1983, eight years later we are still arguing about whether we should pass a minor Bill which will put into legislative practice those principles which have been endorsed by not only the Government, their scientific advisers and all the animal welfare groups but the overwhelming majority of public opinion. The attempt to frustrate the Bill's intentions is disgraceful.

Column 607

I know that the Government have some difficulty with the measures because, in a press release on 23 January, they said :

"Confining pigs in small stalls on a routine basis cannot be justified under any circumstances".

That was the latest Government pronouncement. It was a green light to accept the Bill.

The Government's position on the Bill is slightly different. They say that they have difficulty with it because they propose a ban on new installations, which will go further than the Bill. I accept that, but I cannot imagine anyone in his right mind, having seen the House of Commons accept the Bill, next week voluntarily committing himself to capital expenditure to introduce a new system which he knows will be phased out. We welcome the Government's intention to introduce a ban, but it is a ban that will not take place anyway.

Mr. Andrew Bowden : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Davies : I shall give way in a moment.

Mr. Bowden : It is on that point.

Mr. Davies : In that case, I shall give way.

Mr. Bowden : I heartily approve what the Government said about banning any new stalls. Would not it be possible to introduce an amendment to the Bill in Committee dealing with that?

Mr. Davies : I was about to draw that conclusion. My instinct was not to give way to the hon. Gentleman, but courtesy caused me to do so.

The Government say also that they will extend the provision not only to dry sows but all pigs, which is clearly welcome. They also say that the phase- in period should be two years later than the time scale envisaged, and justified, by the hon. Member for Holland with Boston.

Those are three minor differences. Given the overwhelming agreement on the principle of the measure, it is sensible to agree to the unhindered passage of the Bill, get it into Committee as soon as possible and, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Mr. Bowden) suggested, consider in which ways it needs to be amended to provide any additional measures that the Government wish to introduce. My hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy) and the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes talked about the European dimension. If the House agrees to the measure, that will considerably strengthen the Government's hand. It will reflect endorsement of the Bill's principle by the House of Commons. The Government will have to go to the European authorities on this matter. I congratulate them on their efforts in arguing for improved welfare standards. Their case will be strengthened immeasurably if they can say to the European authorities that the House has agreed to the measures, that the Bill is on the statute book and that we should ensure that the measures are adopted at European level. That would be a sensible, straightforward position to adopt.

I am delighted that the Government have accepted the principle of the Bill. We look forward to participating, in government or in opposition, in a considerable number of

Column 608

such welfare improvement measures in coming years. The public's appetite for them is increasingly evident, no doubt whetted by welfare considerations and the human health implications of some modern intensive practices.

I do not propose to raise the spectre of the various food scares of recent years, but there is no doubt that modern intensive farming methods have made a major contribution to those problems. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Holland with Boston who has followed the logic of his argument and has done much to warn us of the impending dietary and environmental disaster from locking our livestock away in cages. At last the tide is turning and thanks are due to people such as the hon. Gentleman who have set great store by the welfare of their livestock throughout their farming lives. There are many alternative methods of keeping dry sows and such methods already accommodate nearly half of them. I know that there is some dispute about the figures and no doubt the Minister will tell us what his information has revealed. Many of the dry sows live in the most profitable and productive units. Loose-housed, dry sows on straw, if kept in small groups, have few welfare problems as do the large and growing number of sows kept on free range. The hon. Member for Holland with Boston has acknowledged, however, that neither of those systems is without some welfare implications.

Contrary to some of the propaganda from the Ministry and the manufacturers of intensive housing--clearly they have a vested interest--the alternative systems are tried, tested and successful. They are just as successful now as they were before the introduction of the dry sow stall and tether.

I recognise that there is some opposition to the Bill from certain sectors of the pig breeding industry. They argue that the Bill will discriminate against them in comparison to their European competitors who will be able to continue to use the sow stall and tether in their housing units. It is true that it is important that, on this matter, in common with all other farm animal welfare measures, action is taken on a European level. I urge the Minister to continue his efforts to raise this issue with his European colleagues, armed with the knowledge that United Kingdom consumers are demanding that action should be taken.

The National Pig Breeders Association has expressed particular concern to me and to a number of colleagues that discrimination against domestic producers will result in consumers exercising double standards. They will not be able to be sure whether their rashers of bacon come from United Kingdom farms that do not have any stalls or tethers or from continental farms that still use such methods. That particular problem was raised with my hon. Friend the Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley), who is one of our Front-Bench spokesmen and is unavoidably absent today, by a large-scale pig producer in his constituency, Mr. Jackson of Jackson Farms, Appleby. I acknowledge that fear and I believe that it reinforces the argument for action at a European level. However, I agree with the hon. Member for Holland with Boston that that does not invalidate the need for action at a British level--the hon. Gentleman made that point with force.

When starting from scratch it makes good economic sense not to incorporate stalls and tethers in dry sow housing. Therefore, in the long run there would be no advantage to those who continue to use them.

Column 609

If we develop a consumer-oriented system of welfare labelling, to which we are committed, the days of the sow stall will be numbered, even without the Bill. In the event of change, our pig producers might be at a disadvantage and British consumers may be unable to exercise choice by choosing pig products obtained from alternative systems. In that event we must accept the logic of a labelling system that identifies the method of production. British consumers may then ensure that there is no unfair advantage, because I am satisfied that even if there is a premium price, British consumers will be prepared to pay it in the knowledge that they are supporting a production system that meets the animal welfare needs that they have requested. I know that the Government accept the general principle of labelling according to the method of production. I do not want to use this opportunity to criticise the Government in any way. I want to encourage them in their good work-- sometimes I wish that they would go a little faster. The Opposition will support the Government when we believe that they are right and we shall urge them to go further when we believe that they have not gone far enough.

Not only have the Select Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Farm Animal Welfare Council and the Government's welfare code all highlighted the welfare implications of stalls or tethers ; those systems have been implicitly condemned by the Brambell report and by the important European convention for the protection of animals kept for farming purposes. Now, we have the biggest single step forward yet. On 10 January the Government committed themselves to abolishing the sow stall in Britain. The point at issue between the Government and the hon. Member for Holland with Boston essentially concerns the time scale--the phasing-out period. I regret to say that the Pig Breeders Association has argued that the Bill is premature. Nothing could be further from the truth and I am surprised that anyone can seriously argue that line. For the manufacturers and users of the sow stall and tether, the writing has been on the wall for years. The Select Committee produced its report in 1981 and reflected opinion that had been current for many years previously--not only were stalls and tethers inadequate on welfare grounds ; they were questionable in economic terms given that, at that time, the capital expenditure on a breeder's fattener unit was roughly £1,000 per sow place, compared to a tenth of that for a free range unit and a figure somewhere in between for a straw yard. Far from being premature, the Bill is more than a little overdue. In 1988, the Farm Animal Welfare Council spoke authoritatively on sow stalls and tethers. If its advice had been taken by the producers then, we should not be in this position. Let us not forget that the council was set up to advise Ministers on precisely these matters. If its advice had been taken then, the eight-year phase-out period now proposed by the Government would end in 1996 and that is precisely what the Bill proposes.

Anyone who has installed tethers or stalls in the past few years has taken a calculated risk, knowing the potential consequences. Many producers will have had more use out of such systems than they expected when they installed them. The Government always say--we must bear it in mind that what they say and what they do are sometimes very different--that they take the advice of the Farm Animal Welfare Council very seriously. The council

Column 610

recommended abolition three years ago, so the Bill is not premature but at least three years late. Anybody who believed the Government's protestations must be very thankful that they have already had so many years' use out of their stall or tether systems. By 1996, they will have written down the cost and can then move on to using a less expensive dry sow housing system.

I realise that there are differences between the Government's intentions in the legislation that they propose and the provisions in the Bill. As I have said, they are not major differences, and the hon. Member for Holland with Boston is a sensible and eminently reasonable man and I have no doubt that if the House gives the Bill its Second Reading, he will happily discuss the implications and consider such matters in Committee. For those reasons, I hope that the Government will allow the Bill its Second Reading today. We can iron out our differences in Committee.

I assure the House that the Bill has the wholehearted support of the Labour party and I shall urge all my hon. Friends who are present today to support it in any Divisions that may be called.

1.13 pm

Next Section

Home Page