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When reflecting the public interest, the Government should be able at least to participate in the benefits that flow from the privatisation of those ports, and the proposal meets that public interest requirement in a fair and acceptable way. The only example where that was not the case was the privatisation of the Trustee Savings bank. That was unique in that it reflected the many millions of people who already had a direct interest in the TSB through their savings. That was a unique form of privatisation. In every other case it has been right and proper for the public, through the Government, to expect a share of the proceeds from the privatisation.Mr. Richard Holt (Langbaurgh) : While we are considering Tees and Hartlepool, will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the additional levy referred to in clause 16 is not part and parcel of the Tees and Hartlepool privatisation and therefore would not be introduced retrospectively for land sales by the Tees and Hartlepool authority which at the moment are excluded?
Mr. Rifkind : My hon. Friend is referring not to the 50 per cent. levy but to the possibility of a clawback on the disposal of any surplus land. Such a proposal is not contained in the Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority Bill which my hon. Friend is helping to guide through the House at the moment.
In the past, the taxpayer has contributed to the development of at least some of the trust ports, although on a relatively modest scale. We consider that it would be right to leave part of the proceeds of sale with the buyer as an additional incentive for privatisation, and we believe that a 50 per cent. levy establishes a fair balance between the interests of the taxpayer and those of the new owners of the port.
Mr. Holt : May I press my right hon. and learned Friend for an answer? I appreciate that he has recognised that I am piloting a private Bill through the House, but he did not answer my question. Quite simply, it was whether the Government have any intention at this very late stage, bearing in mind that the Tees and Harlepool Port Authority Bill will receive a Second Reading in the House of Lords tomorrow, to insert a clause into the Tees and Hartlepool Bill similar to that which my right hon. and learned Friend is introducing into this Bill for all other trust ports?
Mr. Rifkind : We have no intention of making any changes to the Bill that my hon. Friend is bringing forward in connection with those matters. Obviously, as this Bill goes through the House, we shall have to see whether improvements or changes are required, but we have no intention at the moment of making the changes to which my hon. Friend referred.
I draw hon. Members' attention to one difference between the levy provisions in this Bill and those in the Finance Act. Under the Finance Act, the levy is chargeable either on the proceeds of sale or on the market value of the port, whichever is the greater. Under this Bill, the levy will be charged only on the proceeds of sale. That is because, under this Bill, the Government will be able to ensure that the port is sold for a fair price and there is therefore no need for the market price provision. That change will add greater certainty to the sum on which levy and capital gains tax will be chargeable, since it will be on the proceeds that capital gains tax also will be chargeable.
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Clause 13 sets out the arrangements for the payment of the levy. Clause 14 sets out the arrangements for the provision of the information which the Secretary of State will need for the purposes of the levy. Clause 15 provides that the levy paid will be allowable as a deduction against capital gains tax liability, and makes other supplementary provision relating to the levy.Clause 16 provides for the Secretary of State to make an order for a levy of 50 per cent. on any gains from the disposal of land by the successor company within 10 years of the transfer of property to the successor company. The details of the clawback provision to be made under this order, and on precisely what types of transaction it will bite, are still being considered. That clawback provision will be a further element in establishing a proper balance between the interests of the taxpayer and those of the new owners of the privatised ports. It will be some discouragement to anyone who might intend to purchase a port merely for purposes of land speculation. Clause 17 is supplementary.
Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East) : Apart from the point mentioned by the hon. Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Holt), how close is part I to the Tees and Hartlepool Bill and the Clyde Bill? The Secretary of State said that there were similarities. Certainly, in connection with the successor company and the 50 per cent. clause, there is much overlap. The Tees and Hartlepool Bill and the Clyde Bill were encouraged and assisted by the Department of Transport. It seems rather strange that the Bill is making progress in the House of Lords when this umbrella provision could apply to Tees and Hartlepool and Clyde.
Mr. Rifkind : Obviously, this Bill is to ensure that we do not need a private Bill every time one of the 100 ports in the United Kingdom may wish to bring forward privatisation measures.
Mr. Barnes : What is the difference?
Mr. Rifkind : There are two differences between this Bill and the provisions of the private Bills. One is the absence of clawback provisions in the private Bills, and the second is that the 50 per cent. levy in the private Bill falls on either the price received or the market value, whichever is higher. I have been explaining that, in the case of this Bill, the levy falls on the proceeds. We do not need to have the market value consideration, because it is an open competitive process.
Part II is concerned with the sale by the Port of London authority of the port of Tilbury. Clause 18 empowers the PLA to establish a company to take over the Tilbury undertaking. Clause 19 provides for the PLA to submit to the Secretary of State a scheme for the transfer of the Tilbury undertaking to that company. The Secretary of State's confirmation of such a scheme, with or without modifications, will be given by means of an order made by the Secretary of State. The statutory functions of the authority, to the extent that they relate to the undertaking to be transferred to the new company, will be transferred with it, subject to any exceptions made in the scheme. Clause 20 is supplementary to the provisions in clause 19. Some of the property to be transferred to the Tilbury company would have required a works licence had it been owned by anyone other than the Port of London
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authority. Under clause 21, such licences will be deemed to have been granted to the Tilbury company on the date on which the transfer of property takes effect.Clause 22 empowers the authority to dispose of the securities of the Tilbury company, subject to the consent of the Secretary of State, who will be empowered to give the PLA directions concerning the disposal. Clause 23 enables the Secretary of State to direct the authority to form a company and to submit a transfer scheme for the Tilbury undertaking. That power will be available to the Secretary of State two years after enactment of this Bill.
Part III contains the provisions about navigational aids in harbour authorities' areas to which I referred earlier, together with certain supplementary provisions. Clause 25 confirms that harbour authorities have power to mark and to light their harbours and that they are to be regarded as local lighthouse authorities. The clause prevents the general lighthouse authorities from installing lighthouses, buoys or beacons in the area of a harbour authority unless they are aids to general navigation. Clauses 26, 27 and 28 cover similar detailed matters.
Clause 29 makes provision about the tax treatment of companies formed under parts I and II and of shares and debentures issued by them. Clause 30 makes provision for certain exemptions from stamp duty. Clauses 31 to 36 make various supplementary provisions, including the extent to which the Bill will apply to Northern Ireland.
Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport) : Will my right hon. and learned Friend undertake to bring the merits of the Bill to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland? I am concerned that, with some exceptions, the Bill does not apply to Northern Ireland. There are important ports in Larne, Warrenpoint and Londonderry, but I am particularly concerned about Belfast. When I was responsible for industry in Northern Ireland, the firms of Short Brothers and Harland and Wolff were privatised, and the Belfast harbour board is a substantial landowner, with Harland and Wolff and Shorts as its tenant. We have an anomalous situation in which a trust is the landlord of a privatised company. In that case in particular, it is most important that Belfast should be enabled to take advantage of the privatisation that is indicated in the Bill.
Mr. Rifkind : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for intervening because he enables me to give an answer that will please him and many of my hon. Friends. Although the provisions of the Bill do not apply to Northern Ireland with regard to these matters because they are reserved for the Northern Ireland Office under its own system, it is my right hon. Friend's intention to introduce similar measures for the benefit of Northern Irish ports. Clause 35(3) of this Bill will enable it to apply the levy provisions in respect of any similar measures introduced in Northern Ireland in a similar way. Ports in Northern Ireland will be able to have similar facilities available to them, as my hon. Friend hopes.
The measure should be seen as a further stage in the modernisation of the ports of the United Kingdom. The reforms that were introduced in the 1980s, in particular the privatisation of Associated British Ports and the ending of the dock labour scheme, made an enormous difference to the ability of our docks to cope effectively and impressively with the needs of the late 20th century. It is important that
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the trust ports should also have those opportunities. The provisions in the Bill will not only ensure the public interest but ensure that ports throughout Britain will be able to respond in a way that will meet their aspirations, which will benefit not only the companies but, equally important, all who work for them.5.7 pm
Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East) : The Secretary of State's speech contained much rhetoric but not many facts. I appreciate that a new Secretary of State for Transport is not always able to ascertain the full facts of what has occurred and must therefore rely on the advice of his Department. That may be dangerous in this case, so I shall point out some of the relevant facts of the matter.
There are always grounds for change in the ports industry ; the argument is about the nature of that change and the purpose of it. My maiden speech was about the port of Hull and the shipping and maritime industry, which hon. Members know to be my background. I have heard debates on the docks industry for more than 20 years, and I have seen how the Government's policy has developed.
The Secretary of State was correct to point out that all the other measures that have come before the House, including the dock labour scheme and the privatisations, are part of the Government's strategy. It is a ports policy --the Government have not stood on the side. They clearly have a strategy and have seen a need to privatise the port industry, to deregulate it, to break up trade union organisations, to deny workers' rights, and then to proceed to sell off for development the land assets of many ports. The Bill represents the conclusion of that policy.
The Secretary of State has rightly put the Bill into a proper political context. There are provisions on the navigation lights system, which, as anyone who knows anything about the industry is aware, has been a vexed matter for an awfully long time. It is not properly organised. Historically, it has been organised badly. Those provisions will not find much opposition among Labour Members. We think that they will probably represent a better way of dealing with the problem.
It could be argued--indeed, Lord Rochdale said this in his investigation into the ports industry--that the trust ports have certain difficulties. But Lord Rochdale did not conclude that they should be privatised. He said that certain laws could be changed, such as the rule on the ports' borrowing requirements, and that the structure of the companies could be changed. He said that that could be done by order. He did not say that it would necessarily need one big Bill. However, I concede that, if the Government want to make a general principle applicable to all trust ports, it is better to do so in one piece of legislation, rather than by presenting separate Bills to the House.
When the Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority Bill and the Clyde Port Authority Bill were before the House, the Minister said that the Government sought to deal with the matter through public legislation, rather than private Bills. That makes good sense. It is a good argument.
What is the Government's clear intention in the Bill? Is it simply to create a better and more efficient ports industry, as the Secretary of State claimed at a conference
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last week? In his introductory remarks, the Secretary of State was asked why, if it was a historical accident that trust ports were set up, the same principle had been applied to hospitals and port authorities. He did not answer the point clearly. It is the same principle. The new bodies will be appointed by the Secretary of State. They will not be accountable, yet he is breaking up the existing bodies because he feels that they are not accountable. Trust ports did not arise by historical accident. There is one significant difference between what he proposes and what was originally intended when trust ports were set up. Trust ports were seen as a way of serving the community's needs. They were not intended to be used as profit-making centres. They were intended to meet the needs and service requirements of the whole community. They are non-profit-making organisations. The argument is about whether a non-profit -making port or a port that exists solely for profit is better for the community. At the heart of that argument is the desire for access to valuable land on which an awful lot of profit can be made. Indeed, it is possible to make a killing. In the Bill, the Government go out of their way to make sure that they will get a share of the booty when the ports are privatised.Mr. Holt : All the trust ports have different historical backgrounds, so it is not possible for the Secretary of State, to state the history of trust ports from the Dispatch Box. The historical origin of my trust port of Tees and Hartlepool is that the Government of the day wanted somewhere to bunker their ships and needed to ensure that there was a navigational channel as far as Stockton, and that sailors were supplied with the goods and victuals required in the event of war. The hon. Gentleman makes a silly statement.
Mr. Prescott : If the hon. Gentleman believes that that is a contradiction of my view, he simply shows how ignorant he is of the purpose of the ports. He said that his port was set up as part of a public policy to meet a community's needs and to serve a national interest. The motive was not profit but the need to meet the nation's interest. Those who set up the bodies said that the ports should not exploit their position at the expense of others who wished to use the port. What the hon. Gentleman said fits in with the definition that I gave. Perhaps he will carefully examine his own port and determine why it was created. The Secretary of State made another point that I shall deal with in detail. It is a controversial matter. He quoted my speech of--I cannot remember the year.
Mr. Nicholas Baker (Dorset, North) : 1983.
Mr. Prescott : I thank the hon. Gentleman. It was my speech on the dock labour scheme. It could not have been 1983.
Mr. Prescott : Yes--1989. I should have known not to rely on Whips, or at least Conservative Whips. That is not divorced from the matter with which I am dealing. In my speech in 1989, I said that the circumstances of workers would deteriorate if the Dock Work Bill was passed. The Bill was about workers' conditions. The workers' conditions have deteriorated. Casualisation has taken place in the industry, as people predicted. I know of 25 ports where casualisation has occurred since the dock labour scheme was abolished. Several of them are in
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Scotland, so I should have thought that the Secretary of State would know about them. They include Dundee, Greenock and Leith. There was a switch from the registered dock labour scheme to casual labour, sometimes at the rate of £2.50 an hour. People are hired by the day or half day. I expressed the fear that that would happen. I also said that workers would not be represented by trade unions in negotiations. That has happened in most ports around the country. According to the law, apparently an employer can recognise a trade union but he is not required to negotiate with it. That is what Associated British Ports has done throughout the industry. There are many examples of where conditions have deteriorated. Under the dock labour scheme, training and health and medical facilities were provided. Such facilities are no longer provided in many ports. I said at the time that that would be one of the consequences of repealing the dock labour scheme. I was correct. The Secretary of State claims that what has happened contradicts what I predicted. He is wrong. If he tours the ports and asks questions, he will find that what I told him was correct.I do not want to leave the Secretary of State with the impression that we do not concede the argument that some reform is needed. We conceded that the dock labour scheme needed some changes. As the Secretary of State must be aware, the Labour Government attempted to reform it. Two Labour Members abstained, and the reforms and the legislation fell.
The Minister for Shipping and Public Transport (Mr. Patrick McLoughlin) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way
Mr. Prescott : No. I want to put this on the record.
As Opposition spokesman on transport I was involved in discussions with Mr. Finney--one of the notorious people involved in the matter. He was then director general of the British Ports Federation and director of the National Association of Port Employers. I sought to tell him that there was room for negotiation and discussion. I suggested that we should put the deal on the table. I was prepared to talk to all parties. I understood that he was prepared to talk to the employers, but he said that no one would talk. I believe that they were prepared to talk.
I heard no more from Mr. Finney. Clearly, it was not necessary for him to communicate further because he was carefully planning to abolish the scheme. As he said in his document, he
"masterminded the highly successful campaign to end the Dock Labour Scheme, co-ordinating political activity"
for it. Yet he was telling me at the time that he did not intend to abolish the scheme. I shall come to Mr. Finney in a moment. He was one of the architects of the Government's abolition of the scheme. The Government are set to make an awful lot of money out of it, but I shall come to that point later.
I have not argued and the facts do not suggest that the Labour party does not concede the need for some change. In many of my speeches I have called for a ports policy. The Government do not believe in a ports policy. They do not believe in planning in the ports or any other industry. That is their position. Yet the inquiries conducted by Lord Devlin and Lord Rochdale concluded that it was necessary to have a consistent investment policy to meet the national interest, and that that required some planning framework, whether for investment or the development of ports.
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Mr. Janman : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Prescott : No. I have no desire to give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Prescott : He is such a small man. He will be out at the next election, so I do not want to waste any time.
I have always advocated some form of change in the ports, but the Bill must be seen against the background of the past 10 years of Government policy for the ports industry. The first approach was made by the former Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler). When he became Secretary of State, he argued that there would be no interference with the ports. He said that he was not prepared to make any money available to the industry and did not intend to throw money at the problem. He said that there would be no public subsidy whatever. Then the Government began to dismantle the National Ports Council, which was set up by a Tory Government after the Rochdale committee report.
The Secretary of State began to notice the problem of increased capacity in the industry and of shipowners playing off port against port. There were many examples of that, but I do not have time to go into the details. The Government then proposed privatisation and to do away with public ownership, as they did with the British Transport Docks Board. It is now readily agreed that the Government sold it off for a song. If the Bill contains any evidence that the Government have learnt any lessons, it is the clause that allows them to obtain at least some value from the betterment of land whichwill take place at a later stage. That is one improvement. At least the taxpayers--the Government claim to act on behalf of the taxpayers--will now receive some of that value instead of losing hundreds of millions of pounds as they did in the price that was set for the British Transport Docks Board.
The Bill is concerned largely with the trust ports. I hear that there is no legal definition, although there is a qualification about that. No doubt we can discuss that in Committee. The problem is similar to the old one with the Trustee Savings banks. They are a special form of bank, as we said in our debate on their privatisation, just as trust ports are a special form of port. There are publicly owned ports, privately owned ports and trust ports. The argument is that they could be kept that way.
The argument that trust ports should be kept to meet community needs, rather than used for profits and their assets exploited to the advantage of those who own them, is legitimate and should be considered. The Government do not want to put the emphasis on service. They believe that the community's needs will be met through the pursuit of profit and competition. The case has not been proven, either through the privatisation of the bus service or some railway facilities, that competition, privatisation and the pursuit of profit meet social and community needs. That is at the heart of the difference between this side and the Government on these matters. It has been useful to have a copy of what I thought was the Secretary of State's Second Reading speech at the Waterfront conference a week ago. He spelled out what he considered to be the Bill's aims. In his speech today he confirmed that the policy is to promote and develop the viability of competition in the industry. He feels that that is the best way forward. Therefore, the Bill is to remove the
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constraints on the trust port status. What are those constraints? I hear that these ports have difficulty raising money, and I read what Rochdale said about it.I should like to have more evidence from the Secretary of State this is probably best dealt with in Committee--about the kind of constraints that have prevented them from developing. Many have grown to become large ports and have been able to meet much of their investment requirements. Therefore, the Secretary of State must show us that they were effectively constrained. I am far from accepting that point. Nevertheless, we should perhaps deal with the constraint which Lord Rochdale depicted. It could be dealt with in different ways. Rochdale gave some examples, and the Minister acknowledged that there was an alternative path.
The Government's philosophy is to leave the way open to competition, price and the market system. Anyone who has read the Rochdale and Devlin reports will know their analysis that competition led to the ports competing so much on price that they did not invest. Port investment was run down to such an extent that Tory and Labour Governments had to pump millions of pounds into the docks industry to modernise it. That had nothing to do with labour conditions ; it simply had to do with investment in the ports industry. That is admitted by all the reports that are there for everybody to see--reports which resulted from inquiries set up by Tory Governments.
Mr. Roger Moate (Faversham) : The hon. Gentleman seems to be relying a great deal on the Rochdale and Devlin reports. Although his memory for dates is a bit wobbly today, can he remind us when those reports were published? I have forgotten, and I should like to see whether he is up to date with this industry.
Mr. Prescott : The Rochdale report came out in 1966. The inquiry was appointed by a Tory Government.
Mr. Janman : That was a quarter of a century ago.
Mr. Prescott : Well, at that time the argument was whether we could simply leave the matter for the market to decide, and Rochdale said no, it was against the national interest. So Tory and Labour Governments invested a lot of money in the industry. That is why the Secretary of State is claiming that he wants to take 100 per cent. from the PLP because a lot of money was given to the PLP. The debt runs to about £145 million. Nevertheless, the argument has been waived and the Government have moved from that position.
Mr. Ward : Wrong again--not the PLP, the PLA, the Port of London Authority.
Mr. Prescott : Great. The hon. Gentleman will for ever last on that seat.
The debt is a problem which the Secretary of State acknowledges. The very policy that the Secretary of State advocates will be based on the same philosophy that created such problems before. The Secretary of State said today that if the ports were released, they could expand capacity. The problem in the British ports industry has always been excess capacity and how to deal with it. The problem has been how to deal with not having to reproduce the investments in the ports or,
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indeed, introduce expensive infrastructure into each of the ports. It is a real problem. In Europe there is no problem about planning the industry and making sure that only certain ports develop and fit in with regional and economic development. That is normal for Governments of the left and right in Europe. Over here, there is an ideological difference about whether there is a role for Government. Here, the Government's only role is to intervene and try to get the money. Our dispute with the Government is that their approach could lead us to the same problems to which that philosophy led us before. I have given the example of the dock labour scheme. It was introduced to end casual labour. As soon as it was abolished and everything about maximising profit and cutting wages came in, we ended up with a casualised scheme.The explosion in the industry came when everybody was forced down to poor working conditions. That is what led the Government to set up the Devlin commission. The Tories have always set up these commissions into what is going wrong, things have always gone wrong because of the private sector's handling of the situation, and the commission always come up with recommendations that the Government must intervene to put the industry on a proper footing.
Mr. Barry Field : Can the hon. Gentleman explain to the House why dockers who were previously registered under the scheme, at Southampton now say that they do not wish to return to the scheme as they are better off working at Southampton in enhanced financial circumstances?
Mr. Prescott : The BTDB, which is now Associated British Ports, came to an agreement that there could be a labour co-operative in that area. The co-operative decided to provide the labour because the port authority decided to get out of doing that. That is another feature of the privatisation of ports which Rochdale pointed out. The port authorities did not do anything about hiring labour. It was all left to private companies, which led to many conflicts.
In Southampton, a co-operative deal was struck with the workers, who set up their own company. There is no consistency about that, of course. In Hull, the authority dismissed most of the workers from the scheme. Many of the workers got together and offered a co-operative arrangement, but the authority refused to reach agreement with them. The policy is not consistent, but I presume that that is why the workers in Southampton feel that they have got a better deal. I am not against workers wanting control over their working conditions. It means that they work a scheme and try to deal with their labour conditions. The Bill supposedly suggests that the shares might go to workers in some sort of employee share ownership plan. That is a bit of icing on the cake. At the end of the day, the sale of the trust ports will be determined by the Secretary of State. He has already said that a fair price will be determined and that bidding will be competitive. That will create problems. The corporate structures, the corporate raiders, the big companies, will come in to buy the ports because they can see the land value involved. They will probably just want to take the assets and leave the rump or whatever is left of the port. Under the Secretary of State's formula, it will be possible to do that.
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Anybody who has looked at management-worker buy-outs knows that the problem for them is that they cannot raise enough money to purchase the company. Many corporate raiders come along and offer much more than the value of the company because they see the advantage of that. That does not lead to worker co-operation and worker shareowning ; it leads to big companies owning more of the ports and eliminating the competition.Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) : Does my hon. Friend remember that, when we were involved in the privatisation of the Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority Bill, Mr. Hackney, who was the director of the port, said that, once it was privatised, he would buy other ports on the same coast?
Mr. Prescott : I am sure that that is so. Ports are bought mainly to ensure that they do not provide competition. Anyone who has looked at the evidence from the deregulation of aviation in America will see that a few big companies have taken over the small ones. Big companies dominate the industry. The Secretary of State might believe that it is against the national interest to have big corporations taking over more and more of these ports and perhaps we should hear his policy on that in Committee. Once one holds a view on that, it is a policy of national interest--a Government policy to have an idea of what sort of port industry is wanted.
The Bill is solely about selling to those who will pay most. That may well undermine the Government's alleged intention that a lot of ports providing competition is the best way forward. That kind of policy causes us concern. A lack of thinking about port policy dominates most of the Government's approach to the Bill.
The dock labour scheme has been mentioned a great deal, and I am sure that we will hear a great deal more about it. What makes me particularly annoyed about the Government's approach to the scheme is not that the Bill makes similar promises to what was promised on the Dock Work Act 1989. I am thankful for the paper produced for the Waterfront conference that points out that in one of the clauses the Government guarantee that trade unions will be recognised, that there will not be any unfair dismissals, that there will be the right to consultation and that the Bill is not anti- union. Frankly that is what was said about the dock regulation scheme. It did not mean a damn thing. The guarantee in the Bill will be no more protection for the workers in the industry than that given when the dock labour scheme was abolished. If the Government claim to be concerned about conditions in the industry they should address that problem. There is a conspiracy against the port industry motivated by those who want to make an awful lot of money. The Waterfront conference, which was addressed by the Secretary of State, was set up by the Waterfront Partnership. It was organised by Nicholas Finney, Iain Dale and Peter Cropper. It is interesting to note that each of those men claims with pride to have been the architect of the "successful" campaign for the abolition of the dock labour scheme. One of them used to be director of the Conservative research department, and another worked as a researcher for Tory Members of Parliament. What we have is three Tories out to make a few bob from the industry.
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At one time, Mr. Finney was the director general of the British Ports Federation. He acted in bad faith when he told me that he was prepared to talk about the renegotiation of the dock labour scheme when, at that time, he was actively involved with Ministers in its abolition. Two weeks before its abolition, the then Prime Minister made it clear that she had no intention of so acting, and its abolition appeared to be a surprise to her.It is interesting to compare the then Prime Minister's statement with the evidence given by the Department of Transport to the Public Accounts Committee. The Department was asked why the assessment of the costs of the abolition were five times greater than the Department had estimated. The Department replied that it had had to hurry the thing through. I do not know why the Department gave that reason for having to pay so much. All three previous Secretaries of State attended lunches with representatives of the port industry and made it clear that they agreed to the abolition of the dock labour scheme within five years. That was said despite denials issued in the House.
We now know that there was close co-operation between the Department of Transport and the three gentlemen of Waterfront Partnership. They were involved in the abolition of the dock labour scheme, but they now appear to have become involved in the privatisation of the trust ports. Those three gentlemen are now about to set up a consultative organisation to tell people how best to deal with the trust ports. No doubt that will be a remunerative exercise and they will make a lot of money. I, as the Opposition spokesman, have sought the views of the PLA and the British Ports Federation, but I have received no response. Perhaps I should go to the Waterfront Partnership to discover the views of the owners in the industry.
Mr. Janman : The hon.Gentleman keeps on talking about making money and Mr. Finney. As a result of the abolition of the dock labour scheme, the only things that are making money are British ports and, therefore, British industry and our country. That has happened because the turnround time in the ports has been reduced by half. Tilbury in my constituency has had similiar success. The productivity of its container division has increased by 87 per cent. The ports are making money not only for themselves and their workers but for Great Britain plc.
Mr. Prescott : I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman is quite happy for people to be paid £2.50 an hour for eight hours on the docks. He would not work for that money, but such pay is one of the consequences of the abolition of the dock labour scheme.
In Hull, I spent a long time arguing with the BTDB. Stupid Treasury rules deployed by Labour and Tory Governments did not allow the ports to use their land as they wished. They were also subject to external financial limits that prevented them from borrowing to develop. Labour and Tory Governments made a mistake by listening to the damn Treasury civil servants and they did not have the intelligence to change the system. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Janman) should understand that it is only because of subsequent changes that the ports are making money.
I have never argued that there is no room for change in the industry--in the past, I was involved in trying to reach new agreements on such changes. There were unacceptable
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practices in the industry. I made my dislike of those practices known when we discussed the dock labour regulation scheme. I did not like the fact that dockers' sons always got a job and with preferential treatment. I have always made my criticisms known. One of the benefits of the document produced by the Waterfront Partnership was that it enabled me to read the paper produced by Mr. Prebble of the New Zealand Government. He is a Transport Minister and he came to see me to talk about problems associated with docks. When the New Zealand Government sought to deregulate the port industry they declared their intention for change and entered discussions on how best to achieve that. Despite the controversial nature of those changes, they were made with agreement.It is also interesting to note that the New Zealand Government were able to bring about a 50 per cent. reduction in the dock labour force, but that it cost them just £20 million. When our Government made similar changes, it cost £135 million. The Public Accounts Committee, not surprisingly, has attacked the Government for being so stupid with taxpayers' money and throwing it at people.
The Government should have negotiations with the unions in the industry and others who are willing to talk, but they have got together with people who want to get to the cash. It is all about getting access to the land and the booty. The Bill has nothing to do with ports policy or fairness and justice in our industry. It is simply about how to rob trust ports of their money, land and associated assets.
The port employers may have got the Government to agree to the repeal of the port trusts, but now they are shocked that the Government want to take a share. I agree with the Secretary of State's suggestion that the Government should get some of the cash--I would prefer to suggest that it should be the community that gets the cash. There is no reason why the rewards from the sale of a particular port should not go to its local authority. That money does not necessarily have to go to the taxpayer ; the local community has a right to some of the cash. I do not suggest that those local authorities should receive 50 per cent. of the cash--I should be happy to see them receive 100 per cent.
In the formula announced by the Secretary of State, the share received by the Government slides about from 50 up to 100 per cent.--that is what is worrying the employers. Those employers thought that they had done all the work and would get all the booty. They have done various deals, but the Government have now introduced a levy by which they will take 50 per cent. of the cash.
The Secretary of State has gone even further, however, by taking reservation powers. He does not want to be involved with the tiddlers ; he wants to deal with those ports that have a turnover of £5 million. He is interested in the 12 biggest ports, which command 63 per cent. of the trade--that is where the money is. If those ports do not want to change willingly, the Secretary of State will impose those changes. Now we have a port policy.
The Government's policy is not directed towards achieving the best investment and standards in the country's interests ; it is directed towards getting the booty and a share of the land. The Government are committed
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to that policy because the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has told us that he wants £5 billion a year from privatisations. That is Government financial policy up to 1994, and they have lined up all manner of public sector facilities to be sold off. The Bill has nothing to do with port policy. Yet again, Treasury policy is being imposed on the ports. That policy has done more damage to our ports, under Labour and Tory Governments, than anything else.The Bill is an attempt to reach the £5 billion target. The Government talk about giving the workers shares, but what a load of nonsense. Workers and managements will be unable to bid against P and O and BTDB--they want to buy up the ports. They will succeed, and then they will cut out the competition. What will be Government policy then? Perhaps we shall find another Lord Rochdale in the 1990s who will tell us what to do with our port policy. That is the future offered by the Government.
I warn the Secretary of State--this will send shivers down his spine--that there will be a clawback. He reserves the right to do more, and says that it must be done in the first two years, which brings us within reach of the time of the next Labour Government. If I am appointed Secretary of State for Transport--who knows?--the right hon. and learned Gentleman will have left me great flexibility to deal with these ports. The Secretary of State will leave me tremendous powers to deal with all of them. I warn him that those powers will be used to go much further than he anticipates.
I have said nothing about harbours and navigation--we can discuss them in Committee. The same goes for the Port of London Authority, which is treated separately in the Bill. My experience of that authority shows that it is still savagely anti-union and that it has worsened conditions in the industry. That does not inspire confidence in an improvement in working relationships in the industry. The authority does not bother to communicate with Opposition Members or to tell us what it thinks about a Bill such as this.
There has to be an alternative. We shall scrutinise the Bill and what we inherit when we come to office. We believe that the Bill has nothing to do with port policy, and such a policy must be developed. Most European countries have one, after all. The policy must integrate our infrustructure : roads, railways and the gateways to the water must be linked with the rest of the country. The whole system must be co-ordinated ; decent labour practices must be introduced ; we must recognise the International Labour Organisation obligation that we are supposed to recognise, and the EC social charter.
We shall look into all those aspects when we come to power. All that the Bill does is allow the Government access to the wealth in the land involved. It will worsen the conditions of the workers. I have predicted that correctly before and I predict it again now. On all these grounds, Opposition Members will vote emphatically against the Second Reading.
5.41 pm
Mr. John Ward (Poole) : Unlike the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), I remain confident that my right hon. and learned Friend will continue to issue regulations to the ports for some years to come.
I want to express the concern of my constituents about the possible effects of this Bill on the port of Poole. It is
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perhaps inevitable that the Government should adopt a blanket approach to privatisation of the ports, but I hope to show that the ports covered by the Bill are not all the same, and to persuade the Minister that account should be taken of local variations and, above all, of the wishes of local people.The port of Poole has been described as a textbook trust port. A port of some sort has been there since Roman times, and its fortunes have varied. Sometimes, as in the days of the great sailing ships, it has prospered due to the north American trade. At other times it has declined, as when deep- water ports such as Southampton were built to take the new steam ships.
In 1895, an Act of Parliament set up the Poole harbour commissioners to
"conserve, regulate and improve the Port and Harbour of Poole". This they have done for nearly a century, and I pay tribute to the way in which they have balanced the needs of industry, leisure and fishing over the years.
The commissioners have followed a programme of modernisation and development, not always uncontroversially but always after consultation, and with a sensitivity which could act as a model for any such authority.
We now have a successful cross-channel-style port with regular scheduled freight and passenger roll-on roll-off ferry services to the Channel Islands and Cherbourg, as well as a conventional cargo operation which handles bulk cargoes and steel. But to many of us who live in Poole, that is only a relatively small part of the story. The present harbour commissioners also protect the environment of the second largest natural harbour in the world. It covers some 10, 000 acres and is a haven for many waders and wildfowl. The whole harbour is designated a site of special scientific interest. Brownsea island and a large area south of the harbour in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Mr. Bruce) are owned by the National Trust, and there is an on-going management plan agreed by the local authorities and other bodies concerned with the harbour.
Up to 10,000 small boats and windsurfers are estimated to use Poole harbour during the year, and it is the present harbour commissioners who agree the reasonable mooring rates with the various yachting organisations.
In and around Poole harbour, we have western Europe's largest onshore oilfield. The operator, BP, has spent a tremendous amount of time on scientific studies to establish how to carry out the development of Wytch Farm with the minimum of disruption to the environment.
The House will shortly be asked to consider a private Bill to establish an artificial island near Poole to recover oil from a large area, and the present harbour commissioners are accepting even now new responsibilities in conjunction with the local authorities to ensure that the oil operations are suitably supervised and controlled.
Poole harbour is also the base port for a thriving commercial fishing fleet, and it provides landing and marketing facilities for boats from the surrounding area. Currently, there are 138 registered vessels based at Poole, whose port benefits from its central position, coupled with good communications, particularly for the export of fish to the continent.
Besides the usual catches of fish, Poole is the base for a thriving and expanding shellfish industry, which is providing employment opportunities for younger fishermen. Poole harbour was recently designated as one of the
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