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and 70 per cent. believed that they would work. Given that level of support, the lack of those powers in the Bill is a serious omission. I believe that the Bill is devalued by its failure to tackle fully drink-driving. It is a good Bill that has missed the opportunity of being excellent. The Department must look again at breath testing and, if nothing else, look again at including alcohol-related offences in the retesting procedure.10.50 pm
Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey) : I apologised earlier for not being here for the opening speeches from the Front Benches. I was in a Committee and came as soon as it finished.
The background to the Bill has been well rehearsed, both today and earlier. Many of us must be under threat of being swamped by an excess of road traffic. Government policy in the Department of Transport is like an oil tanker--it heads in one direction and it takes a lot to change its course to another direction. I am hopeful that, if only slowly, the Department's policy will become less one of supporting road traffic and more one of increasing support for traffic by rail and for public transport generally. If so, we shall begin to do things automatically that the Bill specifically seeks to do.
Other Members have given different figures, but the latest figures I have show that in the decade most recently reported there were more than 62,000 road deaths in this country and fewer than 1,000 deaths on our railways. If the Department's projection of a 142 per cent. increase in road traffic by the year 2025 is correct, unless we do more to reverse that imbalance we risk many more fatalities and injuries. It is therefore not surprising that people become emotional about the subject. None of us would be critical of people such as the hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney) for the way in which he addressed the ways that people and their families are personally and collectively mutilated by the results of others' irresponsibility. My colleagues and I welcome part I as far as it goes. Its objective, to summarise it in one sentence, is to prevent and punish drivers who are irresponsible either because they drink and drive or because they are managing vehicles which are mechanically defective and thus a liability to others on or near the road.
When I used to practise as a lawyer, I had experience of both prosecuting and defending people in such cases. Naturally I was vigilant, as I hope we all are, of the civil liberties of all, and careful and wary of the idea that the police should have the right to stop drivers at random in order-- as they would say--to test them for an offence. The reality is that we crossed that threshold a long time ago.
Those of us who drive are all at risk of being stopped for a vehicle check, which is automatically assumed to be an acceptable premise on which a policeman can stop a motorist. The police do not have to have a reasonable belief that a motorist has committed an offence to carry out a vehicle check--it is sufficient that they regard it as an important part of their procedures, and it is carried out on a regular basis. If it is done because police believe it is important that vehicles should be safe, sound and mechanically valid, surely the same should apply, or even more so, if there is a chance that a driver has been drinking and is under the influence of alcohol. The rightful
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argument of civil libertarians is countered by the simple argument that anybody who makes a decision to drive a vehicle must accept the consequences and responsibilities of it and accept that they will be at risk of being stopped by police to ensure that they are driving responsibly.I welcome the fact that the former Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler), whose speech I listened to with interest, and others have come round to that view. A good thing about the Bill is that its long title is so short and general as to permit amendment of the Bill. From what I have heard of the debate and of the arguments--not just figures--of the British Medical Association and others, there is every opportunity for the Bill to be amended either in Committee or on the Floor of the House and I hope and believe that there will be no resistance if it is seen to be the will of the House that we should take the opportunity to legislate for random breath testing. I hope that that view will not be resisted, because if it is widely held by people after careful consideration, we must respond. I entirely accept the view expressed by the hon. Member for Makerfield and others--that we can in that way act to prevent, particularly in the interests of the young, what has become a horrendous and regular carnage on our roads.
The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield made the point that the legal technicalities which allow police to stop motorists are not understood by the public at large and therefore not easily capable of being properly executed by the police themselves. It would be far better to say to the relevant agencies--traffic police, police in general, and others with powers in respect of lesser offences--"You have the power to intervene if you believe that a motorist is acting without the law, whatever that suspected breach may be."
It follows that the law must be enforceable, which is the bridge between parts I and II of the Bill. We can pass all the laws that we wish in respect of drink driving or mechanically inadequate vehicles, or to improve parking restrictions, but unless we have people available adequately to enforce those laws, they are as nothing. All right hon. and hon. Members will have experience of parking controls, covered by part II, which are wonderful in theory but no use in practice, because no one enforces them. To cite one example, when I drive to the House I travel down Grange road in Bermondsey, which is capable of carrying two lanes of traffic, but a goods vehicle is regularly parked outside business premises, converting that two- lane road into a single-lane road for about half a mile just before the traffic lights at the start of Tower Bridge road.
Mr. Corbyn : Is it an old taxi?
Mr. Hughes : No, it is not--it is a relatively old van.
Despite regular representations having been made, the restrictions which already exist are not enforced, with the result that that route into central London is regularly blocked. Unless there is adequate enforcement through the provision of the right personnel, part II will be no use either.
I endorse the remark of the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield that we are again in a muddle over the differing powers and responsibilities given to those expected to enforce the law. There should be a clear hierarchy in one chain of command--I do not mind whether it is a police or local authority chain of command,
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though the logic is that it should come under the police because we would not entrust enforcement of serious offences to anyone who is not a police officer. Traffic and other wardens should work under a clear hierarchy so that they can deal with all traffic offences, and so that the public can recognise that they have that authority. We then need to deal with the two other problems that part II seeks to tackle. I share the view of the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) that it is anomalous that half of a United Kingdom Road Traffic Bill should be dedicated to establishing a system for London. It is illogical not to allow decisions concerning regional and metropolitan traffic provision to be taken by the metropolitan authorities in the areas in question. The reason in London is that it does not have a metropolitan traffic authority. The Bill gives powers to the Government in London, and to local authorities elsewhere. The sooner we return to a coherent and democratic regional transport authority for London, the better.Mr. Corbyn : An elected authority.
Mr. Hughes : Yes, an elected regional authority for London. A small agency within the Department is no substitute--not least because it does not have the local accountability provided by
democratically-elected transport authorities elsewhere in this country. That is the fundamental objection to part II. We hope that the situation will be reversed as soon as possible, and that the Government will realise that incoherent transport planning in London has produced a nightmare, and not a dream.
The three ways to deal with urban traffic congestion are to increase public transport and reduce the number of private vehicles, to increase the cost of road use--many eminent hon. Members have argued for that today--and to make roads more user-friendly for cyclists and pedestrians, and less user- friendly for motorists. I understand that there is a good precedent for charging people more to use roads. In Singapore, where supplementary licensing was introduced for urban areas, there was a 40 per cent. reduction in road traffic. I know that there are objections--one can always argue that the rich can pay and can therefore afford to use roads in the urban areas while the poor cannot. However, in many countries the evidence shows that some form of congested urban area licensing brings in revenue which can be used for other things, and acts as a disincentive to road use. I hope that we shall soon move in that direction.
We should introduce traffic calming measures. There is a whole range of those. The introduction of red routes in London may alleviate problems on the roads involved, but all the side roads off them will be just as blighted by traffic
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as they were before. Without environmental road improvements with through routes for bicycles only, chicanes, more road humps and differential surfaces--many methods can be used--throughout our urban areas, many residential areas will continue to be blighted. People will use them as rat runs, for short cuts, and for parking. The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield cited examples of non-residents constantly parking in residential streets at no cost, blighting the streets for residents and for other people who may need to use them. The cost of on -street parking has to rise. One can always exempt residential parking, but if people realise that it will be extraordinarily difficult to find a place in which to park and also extremely expensive, it will act as an additional disincentive. That does not work if the public transport system does not provide an adequate alternative. If it does, people will be encouraged to use public transport, and to leave the car at home or outside the urban area--for example, in park-and-ride facilities which seem to have been successfully pioneered in some cities.We have to be fairly tough about the times and circumstances in which deliveries can be made to retail outlets. The times have to be reasonable so that businesses can carry on, but if a main road is the only point of ingress and egress for vehicles, there could be restrictions. It would be perfectly proper to allow deliveries only outside rush hours and the working day--that is, early in the morning or late in the evening--or to allow deliveries in small vehicles. It is perfectly possible for the Government to take such measures. One thing that reduces the amount of money taken from motorists by the local authorities in London is that every borough--there are 33 authorities--has a different meter system and different tariffs, so that one never knows, from one borough to the next, what coins will be required, for what period they will work, or the form of meter. Local authority autonomy is indeed a wonderful thing, and I defend it, but, if we are to maximise revenue, co-ordination of traffic meters in London would be no bad thing. Let us try to encourage local authorities to have a standard form of meter. They can have differential pricing--it need not affect the tariff rate that they impose--but for heaven's sake let us make it easier for motorists to have the right coins to put into the meter rather than park and risk putting nothing in, which results in non-payment on a regular basis and if they get caught or chased for payment they still do not pay. Although the Bill is welcome in some respects, it does not go nearly far enough. I hope that by the time it becomes law random breath testing will have been included and part II will have been improved--as an interim measure, until we have a proper, democratic transport authority for London.
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11.4 pmMr. Alan Amos (Hexham) : I join other hon. Members on both sides of the House in warmly congratulating my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State on his introduction of such a comprehensive Bill, which both rationalises and modernises the law on drink-driving and significantly increases the penalties, while also taking steps to deal with those selfish drivers who think that they have the right to block the public highway by parking wherever and whenever they want. There are, however, some points that I should like my right hon. and learned Friend to consider further. The first involves the creation of a separate national traffic police force to enable regular police officers to be freed from myriad minor traffic duties--I except drink-driving offences--and deployed to perform criminal duties more suited to their training. This is not a new proposal, although it may sound radical. I feel that road traffic policing in general is too important to be left to traffic wardens or local councils. I feel that it would benefit less from an increase in their powers than from the establishment of a small, highly specialist force equipped to deal with the many lesser traffic offences.
Many hours of police time are needlessly taken up with such offences, which --although very important--are not criminal in the accepted sense of the word. The police are burdened by the frustration of having to spend so much of each working day dealing with them. If my proposal were adopted, many aspects of road traffic law with which the police have not the manpower or the resources to deal effectively would be properly enforced. I urge my right hon. and learned Friend to consider it seriously : such schemes are operating both in New Zealand--where I was recently able to observe the system at first hand--and in some American states, and they are working extremely well.
My proposed system would also remove a major source of friction between the normal law-abiding citizen and the police. Minor traffic offences often lead to the only occasion on which such people come into contact with the police and I am sure that the police themselves would welcome such a move.
Secondly, I am pleased that the Bill deals in such depth with the problems of traffic management in London and, in particular, that it provides for increased powers to authorise wheel clamping and the removal of vehicles. The statistics tell us that wheel clamping has drastically reduced the rate of illegal parking in the capital. However, as I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will recognise, clamping a car for what amounts in some cases to three or four hours does nothing to relieve that particular section of road from the obstruction, but merely prolongs the problem. It makes far more sense simply to tow away offending vehicles than to leave them obstructing the highway. That can be done by contracting the service out to the private sector.
"Tow-away" should be extended both in the capital and in other areas to help free our roads of badly and illegally parked vehicles. Where tow-away schemes operate in the United States and Canada, they have proved an extremely effective deterrent. Tow-away zones should be extended to all cities and should become the normal way of dealing with the illegal and selfish blocking of public highways. I can vouch for the efficacy of the system : when I was in the
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United States and Canada I did not dare to park in a tow-away zone, although I might have tried it on in other areas.The establishment of red routes in London is an excellent if long overdue measure, welcomed by the Freight Transport Association, the Road Haulage Association and the British Road Federation. It will probably double road capacity overnight in many areas. But why stop with just some of the capital's major routes? Why stop in London? Surely the principle is right and indivisible : selfish behaviour must not be allowed to clog the nation's arteries and create a horrendous cost, which the CBI has calculated to be about £15 billion a year. Please can the scheme be extended to all arterial roads and other cities? If we are serious about encouraging people to switch from private cars to public transport, inability to park one's car and clog the highway will be the most effective method of persuasion--far more effective than ill-conceived road-pricing schemes which are unfair, impractical and unenforceable.
Like many hon. Members, I share the concern expressed over the evil of drink-driving. Society must make it clear beyond any doubt that if someone decides to drive a vehicle after drinking, the punishment will be so severe that he or she will be unable to do so again. I pay tribute to the tireless work that the Government have undertaken to get their message across. I welcome the proposals in the Bill to tighten the penalties for drivers who are convicted of drink-driving crimes. However, I do not feel that they go far enough. Five years' imprisonment for convicted drink-drivers who cause death may seem harsh, but how much harsher life is for the families who are left without a father, mother, a son or a daughter. Five years' imprisonment becomes 18 months with good behaviour. A death in a family lasts for ever.
Three people in Britain will have died today because of a drinking driver-- that is more than will be murdered--and 45 men, women and children will have been seriously injured today, which is more than will be mugged or assaulted. Each fatal accident costs society about £600,000. The total bill for drink-driving in Britain is more than £1 million each day in lost production, demands on the national health service and damage to property.
I am delighted that the figures are falling rapidly, but a more realistic deterrence system would further reduce the figures. That is why I totally support a random breath testing scheme, by which I mean an established system whereby motorists can be stopped at any point on the highway to be breathalysed. Refusal would be an offence. A scheme along these lines has proved to be very successful in Australia and Scandinavia. Road deaths in New South Wales fell by 21 per cent. during the first three years and, more significantly, the number of drivers killed who were over the legal limit fell by 37 per cent.
I urge my right hon. and learned Friend to look at this matter closely during the passage of the Bill. Increased penalties must accompany random breath testing, and imprisonment for at least 10 years for drink-driving offences involving injury or death must be the norm. In Committee we should also consider the deterrent effect of somebody losing his or her licence for a minimum of 10 years. I can do no better than to quote a short letter from one of my constituents that I received this morning. It is from Debbi Piper, aged 15 years, 10 months. She writes from Corbridge in my constituency and says :
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"Dear Mr. Amos,I am writing this letter to express my views on drunk driving. During the month of April 1986, my best friend, Sandra Mitchell, was tragically killed by a drunk driver. She was just eleven years of age and was just settling into a new town after a move from Stockport. She was very well loved by all, family and friends. I have since moved from Formby in Merseyside, which was where the incident occurred, to the above address. Sandra's mother featured in last year's Campaign Against Drunk Driving which brought back many fond memories of Sandra.
The purpose of this letter is to convey my ideas to prevent many more deaths like Sandra's. If during the Christmas period, which is, as you know, the time when the most heaviest drinking is done, when drinkers enter Pubs and Clubs and other buildings of the same manner, they hand over their car keys to the bar person who would hang them on hooks like at a hotel and when the person comes to collect his/her keys, the bar person would be the one to decide whether or not the drinker is fit to drive or not. If not then a free taxi service would be available to take them home.
I feel very strongly that everything possible should be done to prevent deaths like Sandra's."
That is a constructive suggestion which we should consider in Committee.
There has been much debate in recent years about the fitting, use and effectiveness of rear seat belts in cars for both children and adults. We have now reached a point where it is compulsory for children under 14 to wear seat belts where fitted in cars, and there is no question but that this saves many lives each year. It seems to me to be only sensible and logical, therefore, that the requirement should be extended to school minibuses. However, I would not wish to put any extra financial burden on bus and coach companies, so the requirement should apply only to new minibuses where seat belts will, I hope, have been fitted and to vehicles that already have seat belts. I do not wish to exaggerate the problem, but in 1988 more than 550 schoolchildren were killed or injured in road accidents involving coaches and minibuses ; the vast majority of those children were seated.
My final point concerns the delays that occur before vehicle operators who are in breach of the law lose their operator's licence. Even though irrefutable evidence of wrongdoing and breaches of the law may be held by traffic area offices, illegal operators can continue to trade and may even do so after a court appearance and sentence. That is wrong and is an abuse of the law. I hope that it will be considered and that the loophole that enables operators to continue trading will be closed. I should like the existing powers of traffic commissioners to be extended to enable them to confiscate vehicles of persistent offenders.
Many other details can be discussed in Committee. I believe that there should be a new offence for the so-called courier motor cyclists who weave in and out of static and moving traffic, which is very dangerous and should be stopped. I should like to see a ban on the use of hand-held car telephones, which is also dangerous and should be stopped. I know that the Whips want me to sit down, so I shall do so, but those points should be considered in Committee. 11.15 pm
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) : This debate is obviously important and the Bill is two separate Bills.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney) and others, I very much welcome the
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concentration on road safety in part I of the Bill. I agree that many of the proposals to punish drivers who knowingly drink and then maim people are far too soft. I have no sympathy for such people. They should try to put themselves in the mind of a parent who has lost a child or close relative because some idiot knowingly got drunk and then mowed them down at night in a car. Nothing can bring those people back. The fact that a year or two later they get their licence back and carry on driving is repugnant. I hope that their licences are taken away for a long time and that we consider prison sentences for people who, in effect, commit murder. An analogy is someone who has a licence for a shotgun and uses it dangerously, which results in injury or death, but two years later gets the licence and gun back. That is not acceptable, and something must be done about it. I hope that in Committee the Bill will be strengthened because there is broad consensus that it should be strengthened.There is an annual campaign and constant publicity against drink-driving and school children well understand the dangers of it, but perhaps we should address ourselves to the drink culture. The opposition to drink- driving is well known and well publicised, and long may it stay so, but there is a culture surrounding alcohol--that somehow it is good and grown up to drink a lot. We must consider the advertising techniques that drink companies use and curtail them. Too many lives are ruined by alcoholism as well as by deaths caused by drunken driving.
The wearing of rear seat belts is obviously sensible and important. I spend a lot of time travelling around London by all forms of transport, and I find particularly irritating the number of people who drive quite fast in heavy traffic with a car phone in one hand and who attempt to force their way through traffic. That is extremely dangerous. I do not care for the argument that whenever the phone rings they should pull over to the side of the road and answer the call. The presence of a phone in a car is distracting for the driver. Even if he does not answer the phone immediately when it rings but pulls over and stops, it is still an irritant and a distraction. Strict regulations must be introduced on car phones.
In Committee, we should consider how good the driving test is. There are no repeat tests ; hon. Members who passed their test 20 or 25 years ago have not had to take another test. A case can be made for refresher tests or probationary driving, whereby someone who passes a test has a probationary period of perhaps six months, as in France, during which time he can gain experience of dual-carriageway and motorway driving. It is not sensible that a person can pass a driving test and on the same afternoon head out in a sports car up the M1. There should be a form of probation.
There are speed limits, although they are not enforced on the motorways. Is it right that cars should be advertised for sale as capable of going at 140 or 150 mph? Why are such cars sold when there is no road on which a driver can go over 70 mph legally? The idea that a car can travel at 140 mph may seem attractive and clearly the temptation is to drive at that speed.
The Bill does not provide an opportunity to consider transport and traffic policies. Traffic is predicted to increase by 142 per cent. as we move into the next century. No roads, and certainly no roads in urban areas, can cope with that. We must consider restraining car use, particularly in urban areas, and consider the availability and accessibility of public transport. There is a widely
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believed myth that the more people have cars, the more mobile the population is. That is not so. It is true that people become more mobile if they have a car, but the quid pro quo is that villages lose their bus services and urban areas lose their public transport facilities and that for the people who cannot afford to drive, do not own or want a car, life becomes less, rather than more, mobile. We should consider what we are doing.Only 10 days ago, the Department of Transport announced enormous expenditure to create a fourth, fifth and possibly sixth lane in each direction on the M25. That motorway is already the largest car park in the country. I should have been more interested if the Department had proposed putting parking meters all the way round it--at least some income would have been derived from the traffic jams. It is ludicrous. There should be proper transport planning that encourages people to use public transport and provides public transport that people can use. If there is enough orbital traffic around London to jam up the six lanes of the M25 most of the time--three in each direction--that leads me to believe that there are enough people and enough freight vehicles travelling on the M25 that could use trains. I hope that we shall consider those points rather than calmly predict an ever-increasing number of private cars and the ever-increasing damage that they will do to the environment.
Clause 6, which deals with the fairly new offence of dangerous cycling--it was dealt with in earlier legislation--is extremely subjective and is hostile to the interests of cycling. I hope that the Minister will clarify it. Far from cyclists being implicity dangerous people who go around causing accidents, the vast majority of accidents involving cyclists are caused by motorists driving dangerously or by the lack of proper cycling facilities in urban areas. Too often, cycle lanes start and finish at road junctions but do not go through those junctions or across traffic islands. I feel strongly about part II, which is really a separate Bill. I represent an inner-London constituency and have been involved in and campaigned on local transport matters for a long time. My constituency suffers from a high degree of traffic penetration--for want of a better word--and the level of car ownership is low. That is common to most of inner London. Impossible amounts of traffic come through our areas every morning and evening. That causes high levels of air pollution and gives rise to great danger to people living there. It needs to be dealt with and it can be dealt with only on the basis of regional or London-wide planning ; it cannot be dealt with on a London borough basis.
Ever since the GLC was abolished, there has been no London-wide body. At least the Bill admits that there ought to be such a body, albeit the Secretary of State, who happens to represent a Scottish constituency. I mean no disrespect to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that, but is it really on for him to be appointing a London traffic director who will decide the traffic policies for London as a whole?
The Secretary of State reminded us of the history of the red routes proposal. There have been some misconceptions about red routes. The then Secretary of State first announced red routes as an alternative to the motorway-building plans then envisaged for London--the south London assessment study, the west London environmental improvement route, the east London assessment study, the south circular route and all the rest of it. All were the subject of massive opposition in London.
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In my constituency, 17,000 people wrote letters, signed petitions or sent postcards to the Department expressing their opposition to the road-building proposals. That is an enormous number. As a result, the then Secretary of State finally abandoned the road -building scheme and came up with the idea of red routes instead.Red routes are, in a sense, priority routes. Their stated aim is to get more traffic through London on existing routes. They are, in effect, major roads by another name. They are designed to increase the use of existing road space and to speed up traffic. In the consultation exercise, they have been dressed up as favouring cyclists and buses. It is true that the proposals contain some improvements in bus routes and cyclists' facilities. But the powers to introduce new bus and cycle routes already exist. We do not need a traffic commissioner for London to bring in more bus routes. I fear that the red routes are a means of forcing major routes through my area and through other parts of London. The Department of Transport has been highly disingenuous during the consultation exercise. First, it announced its intention to introduce red routes and produced a red routes plan. Then it announced that it intended to consult on the proposals. A large number of public meetings were held, some of which were attended by representatives of the Department, some by the consultants, some by the local authorities and some by all three. No public meeting held anywhere along the red route said that it supported the principle. There was overwhelming opposition to the proposals and there were overwhelming demands for better public transport and smaller volumes of traffic going through London. What did we get? Virtually the same principle has now been put forward by the Department.
I can tell the House that, in Committee, we shall table a lot of detailed amendments on the whole question because many of us believe that there is only one way in which to solve London's traffic problems. We must recognise that public transport provides the key. That means larger amounts of public money invested in public transport, more bus priority measures, the better use of existing rail facilities and the development of light rail rapid transit systems throughout London.
Mr. Spearing : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, but does he agree that the nub of the case that the promoters of the red routes scheme will have to prove is this : given the legitimate needs of local people in terms of safety and trade, what additional flows can the schemes achieve that cannot be achieved by the use of existing powers, particularly at critical road junctions?
Mr. Corbyn : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. All the powers that are sought for the improvement of road safety and for bus priority measures and so on already exist. It seems to me that the only purpose of the proposals is to get a traffic director for London who will have powers of veto over what individual borough councils do and who will, in effect, become the appointed traffic authority for London. He or she will have power not only over the red routes but over the routes feeding into them and affected by them and over proposed new red routes throughout London.
I am extremely suspicious about that denial of local democracy. Instead, I want to see the election of a planning authority for London through a system of elected government under which people are representatives and are not told what to do by the Secretary of State's
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representatives. As I explained earlier, far more resources should be devoted to public transport through subsidies, priority measures and a reduction in car travel into and out of central London. All that can be achieved in several ways. It can be achieved by reducing the number of parking spaces in central London, instead of increasing it. It can also be achieved by physical means. I should prefer a reduction in the number of car-borne commuters travelling into and out of central London. Why should fewer than 15 per cent. of all commuter journeys into and out of central London cause chaos for the other 85 per cent.?Such a change in approach would make London a nicer place in which to live. It would also make it a more mobile and safe city ; and above all it would make it a much cleaner city. We are living in a highly congested, highly polluted, highly dangerous city because there is no serious planning to control the apparently irrepressible growth in the use of the motor car. The Department of Transport sees itself as presiding over the growth in the use of private cars in urban areas. It is not trying to control their use or to encourage investment in rail and public transport.
The Secretary of State kept on saying how much the Government are promoting an investment programme in the railway and public transport systems. That is extremely misleading. In reality, British Rail has been authorised to sell large amounts of its property to finance new rail developments. Exactly the same applies to London Regional Transport. We should be putting new money into our public transport systems and to do that we could end the subsidy on private cars. We could also do it by carrying out an environmental impact assessment of the cost to all of us of the ever- increasing use of cars in urban areas. We should assess how much our lives could be improved by improving public transport.
In many ways the Bill is a missed opportunity. I hope that the issues will be raised again in Committee. Londoners, in so far as they have been consulted on traffic and the red routes, were in favour of public transport, but they came out very strongly against urban road building, against route priority measures and against the imposition of a traffic director for London. Those latter aspects will be opposed strongly throughout the remaining stages of the Bill.
11.33 pm
Mr. Andrew Hargreaves (Birmingham, Hall Green) : My constituents, and road users generally, welcome the Bill and particularly clauses 1, 2 and 5 relating to dangerous driving, careless and inconsiderate driving and causing danger to road users.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State will be aware that my constituents are particularly concerned about the arrival of the M40, which is shortly to be completed close to the border of my constituency. They are concerned about the implications for the quality of life of the huge increase in the volume of traffic and particularly of the increase in the number of heavy goods vehicles thundering through residential areas. The increasing size of lorries is also causing my constituents concern as those vehicles pass by their houses.
I am only too aware of the strength of the transport lobby represented on the Opposition Benches and in
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particular the strength of the Road Haulage Association and the Freight Transport Association. I also acknowledge the interest of some of my colleagues in those matters. However, I want to make one or two points specifically about heavy goods vehicles.The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) made a serious point, about which many of our constituents are concerned, when he referred to the number of fatalities caused by heavy goods vehicles. As he said, the number is increasing and gives rise to serious concern.
An extremely serious accident, about which I have written to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, occurred in fog on the M42 last month and claimed the lives of several people from Birmingham and elsewhere. The principal cause of those fatalities was heavy goods vehicles. Fatalities on west midlands roads in the past two years have predominantly involved heavy goods vehicles. I should like my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State also to take note of the concern expressed by some of my constituents as well as by myself about the increasing incidence of people being maimed or killed by heavy goods vehicles mowing them down on the emergency lane of a motorway or dual carriageway. I refer especially to an incident earlier this year when an entire family was wiped out by a lorry on the A38 in Staffordshire. The number of such incidents has grown significantly over the past few years.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) said that not only lorry drivers but the companies involved should be considered. Earlier today, I informed my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State of my concern at an illustration in the Daily Express of part of the difficulty that was caused on the M6 at the weekend. The difficulty was largely caused by lorries blocking all four lanes, including the emergency services lane. It is a matter of concern that the behaviour of the drivers of heavy goods vehicles is pressured by contracts placed upon them by their employers. When it can be proved that employers have ignored tachograph readings or placed unreasonable strains or responsibilities on drivers, the law should take action against the employer. However, it should also take action against irresponsible lorry drivers.
I agree with the hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney) that in the tragic circumstances in which a drunken motorist or motor cyclist maims or kills a child, the penalties currently imposed appear insufficient if not derisory. Nevertheless, in the west midlands and other areas recently there have been occasions when lorry drivers have maimed or killed and have not even been charged. There have been times when they have driven into stationary cars parked at the side of the road in the emergency lane, not on the highway, and have not been charged. The Bill should deal with reckless and dangerous driving of that kind.
I place specific emphasis on the fact that the driver of a 38-tonne lorry is significantly more likely than a car driver to maim, injure or kill not just one but up to a dozen people. Such a driver has extra responsibility. We expect the master of a large vessel, the captain of an aircraft, or the master of a large transport vehicle to take special care, so we should start to look seriously at the role of lorry drivers. I hope that that matter can be investigated in Committee.
There is good reason to ask that life bans on the driving of heavy goods vehicles or coaches should be imposed on
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those who have been convicted of careless or reckless driving on more than one occasion. Many lives are at stake. I am seriously concerned by the high speed at which such vehicles travel on the motorways. Hon. Members who live in constituencies distant from London, including one or two of my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench, will share the experience of driving at the legal limit on the motorway and being overtaken not only by buses and coaches travelling at significantly more than the limit, but also by articulated lorries, some of which belong to well-known haulage companies. There should be greater insistence and greater co-ordination with police forces to ensure that the speed limits relevent to those vehicles are observed.Mr. McCartney : It is not just a question of some drivers driving dangerously--when they drive loads containing toxic chemicals and other highly dangerous materials, the community living alongside the motorway also becomes affected when the load is spilled or there is a breach in the tank. The speed at which heavy goods vehicles travel is important to road safety, especially when they carry substances which, if they spill out of their containers or cylinders, can affect a wider group than the drivers on the motorway at the time.
Mr. Hargreaves : I accept the hon. Gentleman's point entirely. It speaks for itself and requires no further comment from me. I hope that that matter can be dealt with in Committee.
I have one final, small point to make about random breath testing. Having heard what a number of colleagues have said today, and having discussed the matter with a number of constituents and people in Birmingham generally, in all honesty I must point out that some people are suspicious of random breath testing. Although we all understand the right and proper motive for its introduction, it may well be misunderstood outside, and it may be counter-productive to the police forces. If we consider such a measure, and if my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State admits to its being included in the scope of the Bill for consideration at a later stage, I nevertheless urge colleagues to think carefully and to consult their local police forces before taking too high and moral a view before the public is ready for it.
11.42 pm
Mr. Terry Lewis (Worsley) : I intend to make only a short speech and to refer only to part I of the Bill. The Secretary of State said that the purpose of the Bill is to save lives. I agree with much of what is in the Bill and many of my hon. Friends have also expressed their agreement. I am one of those--perhaps--incautious people who travel more than 20,000 miles a year on the motorways. I travelled down the M1 and M6 today from Lancashire. Driving down, I saw things that I have seen at normal times but which appeared worse as today is abnormal because some of the results of the recent bad weather are still evident.
I agree with the new definition of "dangerous driving", but should like to draw the Secretary of State's attention to some of the things that should be further considered in Committee. I have no doubt that my right hon. and hon. Friends who serve on the Committee will table amendments about some of the things that I shall mention.
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As I have said, today was one occasion when it was more dangerous than usual to see some of the things on the motorway that give me heart murmurs while I am driving. Today I witnessed tailgating, an offence which should be punished hard. Even if it only intimidates the driver in front, it could cause a small shunt, but, at the worst, the driver in front could panic, run into some obstruction and put on his brakes. He will not have a snowball in hell's chance even of surviving the crash. As a member of the Transport and General Workers Union, I regret to say that some of my colleagues who drive are culpable. However, some employers put pressure on drivers in terms of time, weight, unfit wagons and other matters which have been mentioned today. They are as culpable as the driver behind the wheel. Some of us are surprised that when trade unions break the law they quickly have their funds sequestered, but when employers break the law in ways such as I have suggested, there is a marked reluctance by the courts, the police and the Crown prosecution service to do anything about it.Mr. Corbyn : Is my hon. Friend aware that the problem of speeding coaches on motorways is a serious one? Is he aware that the timetables for some coach routes between London and other places make it impossible for coaches to make the journey without consistently breaking the speed limit on the entire motorway part of the journey? Should not something be done to companies that force drivers into trying to keep to those timetables?
Mr. Lewis : I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I was coming to coaches, which are one of the main culprits of the motorway offences to which I have briefly referred.
I wholeheartedly support the Secretary of State's contention that new or existing technology should be used to detect offenders. Today we have discussed briefly the use of cameras to detect red light jumping and speeding. I suggest that the Standing Committee should discuss the possibility of using cameras to detect and prosecute tail- gaters and those who overtake on the inside. Some drivers do not overtake only once on the inside. Often, particularly on the M1, one can see them overtake on the inside, on the outside again and tear off into the night. One Conservative Member mentioned car telephone users. I saw some today. We came through the worst of the weather in Birmingham where there was snow on the ground in the fast lane--which we parochially call the outside lane--and as soon as we reached a stretch where the weather had bucked up and it was dry and reasonable to drive at 60 or 70 mph, drivers were using mobile telephones. I saw not only one but about four of them with telephones clutched to their ears as soon as they hit a stretch of open road. The worst thing that I saw today was a small hatchback car with three youngsters between the back seat and the tailgate. That is criminal in anyone's language and that is the sort of thing that I would like to see detected by photographic equipment. I should be the first to argue that it is a reasonable way to bring to prosecution people who put children in such danger.
I am disappointed that the Secretary of State has not grasped the nettle on random breath tests. On January 22 I shall test the mood of the House on random breath testing in a ten-minute Bill. I shall propose the introduction of random breath testing. I am confident that
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it has the overwhelming support of our constituents. I hope to test the mood of the House before the Bill reaches Committee.On the subject of drinking and driving, I cannot resist referring to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott). He said that lemonade cost 35p for a small bottle.
Mr. McCartney : Eighty-five pence.
Mr. Lewis : Even worse. Publicans and brewers--I suppose that the publicans are the victims of the brewers--are even more culpable when it comes to the cost of low-alcohol and non-alcoholic beers. I drink such beers from time to time. In many of the pubs that I use the price is almost double that of ordinary beer. There can be a temptation to the weak-willed motorist, who feels that he is being ripped off, to drink when he should not and then drive his car. Such pricing positively encourages people to consume too much alcohol and then to drive a motor vehicle.
The Bill is defective in some small respects, but I believe that some safety measures could be added to it without much difficulty. For example, I consider that coaches should be banned from the third lanes of our motorways. There is no reason why a 42-seat coach should use a lane that is barred to heavy goods vehicles. There is no reason why 42 passengers should be put at risk in that way. I hope that the Secretary of State will take up that suggestion.
I suggest that there should be some bad-weather containment of HGVs. In the midlands, there was ice and snow on the third lane today and, effectively, it was blocked off. The HGVs were nose to tail on the centre lane. Private motor cars and motor cyclists were being driven or ridden into the spaces between the lorries, which were far too small to enable that to be done safely. The highway code tells us that even when travelling at slow speeds we should allow a space between us and the car in front that is sufficient for another vehicle to enter safely. That was not being done today. In severe weather conditions, we should confine HGVs to the inside lane. Where there have been debates on EC regulations, for example, I have talked about the spray from HGVs when the roads are wet. It is monstrous that we allow them to fog off sections of the motorway with spray. As some HGVs have well designed and superbly constructed anti-spray equipment, why cannot all HGVs be fitted with it? Why cannot manufacturers be forced to include it in the specification of their products? That should be done. If we have to go beyond the demands of EC legislation, so be it. That is what Parliament is supposed to be about and that is what it should be about. We should insist on proper anti-spray equipment.
I understood that anti-jackknife equipment was fitted as standard on all articulated HGVs. During the weekend, however, I saw at least three such vehicles that had jackknifed on one or other of our motorways. They were almost brand new. If anti-jackknife equipment is available, it should be fitted to all articulated vehicles. I thought that it was, though I may have been mistaken. I plead ignorance.
Mr. McCartney : What about caravans?
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Mr. Lewis : I do not want to talk about caravans. I could bore the House all night with what I think about the towing of caravans. The cause of many serious non-motorway accidents lies with the mismanagement of traffic in urban areas. It is as simple as that. I am afraid that the motor car has taken over the thought processes of many individuals and that problem should be tackled. Some people in my constituency, when confronted by double yellow lines, park their vehicles on the pavement--to blazes with anyone who is blind or otherwise disabled, and children going to and from school. Such people should be subjected to serious collar feeling by the police. They should be banned from driving, as that behaviour is ludicrous. If that is how they behave when their vehicles are stationary, heaven knows what they do when driving. The practice of parking vehicles opposite road junctions should also be subject to rigid policing. That practice is endemic in my constituency and many others. The Bill, like the curate's egg, is good in parts. I hope that the Secretary of State has listened to this well-ordered debate and will act before the Bill goes into Committee on some of the suggestions made.
11.55 pm
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