House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 Dec 1990

Mr. Newton : My hon. Friend takes me a little wide of the responsibilities that bring me to the Dispatch Box today, but I have no doubt that suggestion will be noted in the appropriate quarters.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : Who will pick up the £5,900 million bill for the Government's error in forecasting the

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costs of switching from the state earnings- related pension scheme to private occupational schemes? Will it be the taxpayer?

Mr. Newton : There is no such error. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell me who in the next century would pick up the bill for the unsustainable promises made by his party.

Pensioners

9. Mr. Beaumont-Dark : To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what was the average pensioner's income from savings over the periods 1974 to 1979 and 1979 to 1990.

Miss Widdecombe : My hon. Friend will wish to note that the latest available data show that, at 1987 prices, the average pensioner's income from savings fell from £10.70 per week in 1974 to £9.10 per week in 1979. But, by 1987, it had more than doubled to £20.90 per week.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark : May I join other hon. Members in welcoming my hon. Friend to the Front Bench? Is not it most important that we encourage companies and all employers to pay occupational pension schemes? Is not one of the most important events since 1979 that private pensions have increased by more than 130 per cent. in real terms? Is not that a way in which to make sure that people are better-off and more self-sufficient? Private pension schemes mean that state pensions will be only the supernumeraries instead of the mainstay of families in the generation to come.

Miss Widdecombe : I thank my hon. Friend for his welcome. He is, of course, absolutely right. The House will wish to note that the average income from an occupational pension has grown in value by 77 per cent. since 1979. In addition, 52 per cent. of all pensioners and 73 per cent. of recently retired pensioners now have occupational pensions. That is testimony to the Government's determination to encourage savings by that route.

Residential Care

10. Mr. Spearing : To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make an official visit to the York house residential home, Plaistow, to meet residents and staff to discuss levels of residential care attendance.

Mr. Newton : I have no plans to do so.

Mr. Spearing : Is the Secretary of State aware that although he will still be welcome there, York house residential home is closed? Is he further aware that that is because the Government have neglected to act on the findings of the Price Waterhouse report, which showed that the income of residential homes from social security is between £40 and £60 a week less than the general requirement? Will he now consult not only Price Waterhouse, but the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and Age Concern over this very important national problem? Does he understand that more homes will be closed, not only in east London but throughout the country, unless he acts quickly?

Mr. Newton : I am, of course, aware of the problems that have been reported in connection with that home. However, I am also aware that it appears that the problem

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in that case and, for all I know, in many others, is somewhat more complicated than the hon. Gentleman allowed in his question. In particular, I understand that of those currently remaining in the home--

Mr. Spearing : There is no one there.

Mr. Newton : I am told that there are still a number of people in the home, not on income support but fully supported by the health authority, which must mean that they are in need not of residential care, but of nursing care. That, in turn, raises questions about whether the home was properly registered. If it had been registered as a nursing home, it would have received substantially more money each week for those residents and they would be facing a large increase next April. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that I do not dismiss his comments out of hand, but he should recognise that some of these problems are a great deal more complicated than is sometimes suggested in the newspapers.

THE ARTS

Royal Opera House

27. Dr. Kim Howells : To ask the Minister for the Arts if he will provide the management of the Royal Opera house with the funds required to undertake remedial construction tasks at that establishment.

The Minister for the Arts (Mr. Tim Renton) : Development of the Royal Opera house will be funded principally from the proceeds of the development of land and commercial properties gifted to it by successive Governments. As my right hon. and learned Friend the former Minister for the Arts recently made clear, the Government are unable to make a further capital contribution. I am in close touch with the Royal Opera house management, which is now reconsidering the phasing and content of the project.

Dr. Howells : Is the Minister aware that although many people in this country admire the work of the Royal Opera house, there is nevertheless the feeling that the additional funds that are being made available for the sort of schemes which the Royal Opera house management wants to pursue will simply mean that additional precious funding will go towards putting some of the best-clad backsides in this country on some very expensive seats for a night out at the opera and that that will be done at the expense of many arts groups and organisations in other areas, especially Wales and the English regions?

Mr. Renton : The hon. Gentleman is being somewhat unfair. The Royal Opera house has increased its revenue both from sponsorship and from the box office sale of tickets in the past year. The amount of revenue that it receives in subsidy from the Arts Council has fallen as a percentage of its total revenue. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is thinking especially of the Welsh National Opera, for which he must naturally have a good deal of sympathy and support, which receives more than £2.5 million in grant from the Arts Council and £1.7 million from the Welsh Arts Council. I do not think that any other major organisation has its funding split in that manner.

Mr. Cormack : May I welcome my right hon. Friend to his new post and wish him every success in it? I thank him

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for the answer that he has just given, which showed a greater appreciation of the problem than did the questioner. Will he pay an early visit to the opera house to discuss the plans with the chairman and director, remembering that there is enormous earning potential from that development?

Mr. Renton : I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. I realise that he has had a strong interest in the arts and heritage for many years. One of my first onerous duties as Minister for the Arts was to visit the Royal Opera house, where I had the great pleasure of seeing the Scottish Opera production of "Les Troyens". I was taken backstage after the performance not only to meet members of the cast, but to have pointed out to me how much the backstage area needs repair and redevelopment.

Mr. Fisher : May I welcome the Minister to his new job as the third holder of the office this year? I wish him well in his endeavours on behalf of the arts. He will be aware of the problems that he inherits from his predecessors, not least in general remedial construction--the crisis in our cultural buildings. There are holes in the roof of the Tate, the Victoria and Albert museum needs £100 million spent on it and the chairman of the Arts Council, Mr. Peter Palumbo, guesstimates that at least £1,000 million needs to be spent on our cultural buildings. In that new situation- -at least it is new to him--will the Minister have the courage that his predecessors did not and face up to the evidence and the facts? Will he commission a national audit of arts buildings so that people round the country and hon. Members on both sides of the House can know the real position and how great is the task to be undertaken over the next 10 years?

Mr. Renton : First, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks at the beginning of his questions. Secondly, he may have noticed that I have already answered a parliamentary question on our cultural buildings. I said that I was commissioning a survey to be carried out by a multi-faceted professional company into the building requirements of the major museums and galleries. I have asked for the company to report to me by summer next year. The hon. Gentleman should not underrate the settlements that both my predecessors obtained in the public expenditure rounds. In both cases, the settlements were well ahead of the rate of inflation and were welcomed as that.

I had been warned that in his questions the hon. Gentleman would almost invariably use the word "crisis." I suggest that he takes a leaf out of the book of Corporal Jones in "Dad's Army" and, instead of always throwing his arms in the air and shouting, "Crisis", he shouts "Don't panic!"

Mr. Maclennan : Does the Minister recognise that a commitment to the arts will be met if he takes on board the recommendation of the National Campaign for the Arts on the proportion of public spending which should be devoted to the arts--a modest 1 per cent. of gross domestic product, substantially below that of other European countries with comparable populations and revenues?

Mr. Renton : I thank the hon. Gentleman for asking that. I have looked briefly at that survey and at the campaign. But as a fair-minded person the hon. Gentleman will realise that it is extremely difficult to compare like with like in this matter. As I understand it,

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the comparative figure given for France, for example, does not take into account either the business sponsorship or private patronage that we have in Britain. The matter is well worth close study, but I doubt that whether is a case for leaping ahead in the manner in which the NCA suggests.

Young Musicians

28. Mr. Bowis : To ask the Minister for the Arts what support he provides to encourage young musicians.

Mr. Renton : I understand that the Arts Council, through which Government funds are channelled, supports a number of schemes such as Music for Small Groups to help young musicians, and Youth and Music to encourage young people to attend concerts.

Mr. Bowis : May I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend on escaping to the best possible job in the "House of Cards"? Has he had a chance to look at the quality of music in Britain and the standard of our young musicians, not least on those excellent occasions, the schools proms? Does he recognise that there is some anxiety in that world as a result of the problems in peripatetic music teaching? Will he take an early opportunity to discuss the matter with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science?

Mr. Renton : I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. I am advised that in view of the slightly open-ended ending of the fourth episode of "House of Cards" the BBC is planning a sequel. However, I do not yet know whether the BBC intends to entitle it "Minister for the Arts". I warmly applaud the schools proms season. I hope that that excellent season, organised by Music for Youth, will continue. It is an organisation funded by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. As my hon. Friend clearly knows, it gives schoolchildren a chance to play in the best concert halls up and down the land.

I see no reason why the peripatetic music service to schools should suffer. I hope that valuable positions of that nature will not be threatened if local education authorities decide to delegate funds to schools. Schools might even choose to enhance music provision from their budgets--a move which I would support.

Mr. Tony Banks : I, too, congratulate the right hon. Gentleman. I hope that he manages to last at least until his next Question Time. He is welcome to come to Newham to see what we are doing. We have the Newham Academy of Music, which the local authority supports. I read in the newspapers that the Minister was looking carefully at local authority expenditure on the arts. Will he be prepared to talk to the Department of the Environment to make sure that adequate resources are put at the disposal of local authorities so that they can continue to give the support to the arts which the arts merit?

Mr. Renton : I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's question. He will realise, probably better than I do, that local authorities' arts spending is discretionary, not mandatory. Certainly, if I received strong evidence that arts budgets were being cut wholly disproportionately, although I have no statutory powers I would seek to

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discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment to see whether he could bring to bear any gentle persuasion.

The hon. Gentleman's first point was his hope that I might be here for a long time. I remind him of the Latin tag, vita brevis est ars longa. I realise that my turbulent life as Chief Whip was short and I hope that with his help my life as Minister for the Arts will be longer.

Business Sponsorship

29. Mr. Butler : To ask the Minister for the Arts if he will make a statement on progress of the business sponsorship incentive scheme.

Mr. Renton : I am delighted to have inherited such a successful scheme which has raised over £37 million in new money for the arts, including £12.28 million in Government awards. Recent research by the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts shows that over 90 per cent. of sponsors contacted intend to continue. That is excellent news.

Mr. Butler : How popular is the business sponsorship incentive scheme outside the great metropolis?

Mr. Renton : I understand that about 75 per cent. of business sponsorship schemes are located outside London. Indeed, one of my first pleasant duties as Minister for the Arts was to hand over business sponsorship awards in Glasgow to Scottish companies.

Natural History Museum

35. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if, pursuant to the answer of the right hon. and learned Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor) of 26 November at column 619, he will make a statement on ministerial meetings with Sir Walter Bodmer in relation to staffing problems posed by the IPMS in connection with the natural history museum.

Mr. Renton : My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor) met the chairman of trustees and director of the natural history museum on 1 November 1990 to discuss a wide range of issues concerning the museum. I share the view that the recent agreement between the natural history museum and the Institution of Professionals, Managers and Specialists should be welcomed. It serves the best long-term interests of the museum and all concerned.

Mr. Dalyell : Will the Minister visit the museum officially and meet IPMS representatives?

Mr. Renton : I thank the hon. Gentleman for suggesting that I should add that to my list of travels and I shall think carefully about it. On Friday I had the opportunity of meeting the director of the natural history museum.

Mr. Dalyell : Members of IPMS.

Mr. Renton : I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I thought that he said the chairman of the museum. I had discussions with the director and he is satisfied with the agreement that has been reached so far, as the hon. Gentleman knows. I know that the hon. Gentleman has taken a close interest in this matter. Only one redundancy is likely to occur. The proper course is for the management to sort out the details of the agreement with IPMS. It is no

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part of my work to interfere in this dispute. Clearly, if I found reason to believe that the agreement was not working, I would consider visiting the museum.

CIVIL SERVICE

Morale and Conditions

36. Mr. Allen : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service when he next intends to meet civil service trade union leaders to discuss morale in the service.

37. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what arrangements he has for discussing conditions with civil service trade union representatives ; and if he will make a statement.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Tim Renton) : I intend to follow the practice of my predecessors and look forward to meeting civil service trade union representatives whenever necessary.

Mr. Allen : I welcome the Minister to his new responsibilities. When he meets civil service trade union leaders, will he consider extending the terms and conditions that apply to their members to those who work in this House but are not members of civil service unions? He will be aware of the campaign led by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) for adequate staffing levels and payment, particularly for staff in the Refreshment Department. Will he discuss changing their terms of tenure to those which apply in the civil service, for which he is responsible?

Mr. Renton : I shall consider what the hon. Gentleman has said. He will be aware, however, that terms and conditions relating to pay in the civil service are not my responsibility but that of Treasury Ministers, particularly the Minister of State. I believe that the specific conditions in the House are more the responsibility of the Services Committee or the Commission rather than mine. I shall bring his comments to the attention of my colleagues.

Mr. Skinner : Will the Minister have a word with the Chairman of the Commission, who sits behind me, the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith)--

Mr. Beith : Mr. Speaker is the Chairman.

Mr. Skinner : I mean the one who speaks in the House. The hon. Gentleman answered the letter that I sent to him and the Lord President of the Council about people in the Refreshment Department who will be paid the paltry sum of £3.50 an hour for working on Christmas eve and new year's eve. They will get no extra payment for that work. Surely they should not have to come in here on days when no Members will be here. If they do come, they should be given unsocial hours payments. Get something done about it and knock their heads together.

Mr. Renton : One of the pleasures of my time as Patronage Secretary was to listen to business questions and I remember that the Leader of the House regularly answered questions much along those lines, usually from the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). No doubt that hon. Gentleman knows to whom to ask such a question, even if the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) does not.

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Mr. Jessel : As the question on the Order Paper refers to morale, can my right hon. Friend tell us why it is that, whenever people in the public sector want to be paid more money, they always talk about their morale?

Mr. Renton : I suspect that the same applies in the private sector. I assure my hon. Friend that, from my office, I have seen no sign that there is anything wrong with morale in the civil service. The introduction of the executive agencies and, in many cases, pay related to performance and bonuses following good performance have been welcomed by the civil servants involved. I am responsible for the Civil Service Commission and applications through its competitions for fast-stream vacancies are 75 per cent. up on the same time last year. The European fast stream that we launched recently has proved extremely popular with applicants. I believe that morale in the civil service is fine.

Mr. Dickens : Does my right hon. Friend agree that morale in the civil service is extremely high? We have a dedicated staff who are courteous and efficient and who obviously represent the best civil service in the world. Does my right hon. Friend also agree that those who are asking questions and shedding tears for people in the Refreshment Department should study closely what contribution they made to the Christmas bonus fund for the staff this year because many people have given little money?

Mr. Renton : I note with great pleasure what my hon. Friend said. No doubt colleagues on both sides of the House will follow his observations and rush promptly to make certain that they have made a good contribution to the staff fund.

Dr. Marek : Why, after all these years, will official Government advice to new entrants to the civil service no longer say that they should join a union to ensure that their views are represented and heard? Surely the Minister should put such puerile, Thatcherite games behind him. Does he at least recognise that a good and efficient union is in not only his interests, but those of the country?

Mr. Renton : I do not understand the background to the hon. Gentleman's question. After all, we have moved away from the closed shop. Union membership has become more and more voluntary and discretionary in the past 11 years of Conservative Government and we intend to continue in that direction in the civil service as in the private sector. There is no problem for me, because, as the hon. Gentleman might know, I have been a member of APEX--the Association of Professional, Executive, Clerical and Computer Staff--for the past 11 years. I am always delighted to meet other members of that union. The hon. Gentleman's comments are surprising, because we are not in the business of enforcing closed shops either in the public or the private sector.

Private Industry (Secondments)

38. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service how many civil servants were seconded to private industry in the last two financial years.

Mr. Renton : The figures on a calendar year basis are 432 in 1989, up from 311 in 1988. I welcome that trend and look for it to continue.

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Mr. Marshall : May I join my hon. Friends in welcoming my right hon. Friend to his new post? I also welcome the trend, because such cross-fertilisation can only be mutually beneficial.

Mr. Renton : I thank my hon. Friend for his kind opening remarks. I wholly agree with his comment about cross-fertilisation. The figures have risen well. Secondments to industry have increased from 63 in 1977 to 432 in 1989. I am sure that much can be gained by both sides from the interchange of experience and knowledge of working practices. I share my hon. Friend's view that the trend should be greatly encouraged.

Press and Information Officers

39. Mr. Beith : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service whether he has any plans to co-ordinate the work of press and information officers in the civil service.

Mr. Renton : The existing longstanding arrangements will continue to operate.

Mr. Beith : Now that there is a new press officer at No. 10 who does not have the service-wide responsibilities acquired by his predecessor, will we enter a new era in which the line between Government policy and party matters is clearly drawn and the press office at Downing street does not blacken the character of, and put the knife into, Ministers, or will old habits come back quickly?

Mr. Renton : I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman asked that supplementary question, although I thought he might because he has a gift for turning a silk purse back into a sow's ear. I have no doubt that both the gentlemen who have been appointed--Mr. Devereau as head of the

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profession, as he is technically called, and Mr. O'Donnell, as No. 10's press officer--will fulfil their duties and responsibilities very well.

Race Relations

40. Mr. Peter Bottomley : To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if his office has circulated the race relations employment advisory service report on the Department of Employment to other Departments.

Mr. Renton : The report was circulated to Departments in 1986. More recently my office has published a programme for action on race to ensure equality of opportunity throughout the civil service.

Mr. Bottomley : Will my right hon. Friend make sure that there is regular monitoring? One of the best things that the civil service can do is to show how to overcome indirect as well as direct discrimination.

Mr. Renton : I appreciate what my hon. Friend says. As he knows, the aim of the programme for action on race is to ensure that we recruit, develop and retain the best available civil servants totally regardless of race or colour. We regularly monitor the figures, which show an increase in ethnic minority staff at senior grades over the past year--from 1.5 to 1.7 per cent. I hope that that trend continues.

BILL PRESENTED

Reform of the House of Lords

Mr. Graham Allen presented a Bill to abolish the House of Lords as presently composed and to provide for a new directly elected membership based on Parliamentary constituencies : And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 49.]

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