House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Dec 1990

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hon. and learned Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor), who is now the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, made it clear that he was establishing the fund--about £7 million for each of the next three years--he made it abundantly plain that it would not be available to all the clients of the Arts Council. He said that that could not possibly happen.

It is true that the Welsh National Opera company did not receive anything from the enhancement fund. Nor did the Royal National theatre and the South Bank. On the other hand, the Arts Council has announced an increase of 11 per cent. in 1991 for the WNO's touring expenses. Its grant will increase from £2.8 million to £3.1 million. The Welsh Arts Council announced this morning that from its enhancement fund of £410,000 it will make available £175,000 to the WNO. When those factors are considered together, I do not think that it is realistic to say that the WNO has been treated badly by the Arts Council.

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : Come on.

Mr. Renton : No, not at all. I insist that it is the Arts Council that decides on allocations to individual clients, not myself. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central appeared to be concerned that all the money was going to London. Fifty-one per cent. of enhancement fund moneys will go to Greater London and 49 per cent. to the regions. That is the same split as that which was made of the total Arts Council funding for English revenue clients for 1989-90. Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I have to balance the interests of hon. Members who are waiting for the Christmas Adjournment and Consolidated Fund debates against the interests of hon. Members who are hoping to catch my eye now. I shall endeavour to call all hon. Members, but, as it appears that this will be a fairly long process, I must ask for single questions only. We will have to move on at 5 o'clock, irrespective of whether all hon. Members have been called. Whether or not I can call all hon. Members depends on the hon. Members concerned.

Mr. Toby Jessel (Twickenham) : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his statement. Will he invite the Arts Council to accept that symphony orchestras and concerts play a most important part in the cultural and artistic life of this country, and at least as important as opera? That applies to both London and provincial orchestras. Will my right hon. Friend comment on the position of the South Bank and the Royal Festival hall, as the home of symphony concerts in London and the south-east?

Mr. Renton : I thank my hon. Friend for his supportive remarks. South Bank is to get a 5.5 per cent. revenue increase in the year ahead. I realise that that is disappointing for the South Bank management, but the decision was the Arts Council's not mine. However, there is good management at the South Bank, and it is making good progress in dealing with its deficit. I am told by the Arts Council that it hopes that that 5.5 per cent. increase will be sufficient to enable it to write off its deficit in the year ahead.

Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness and Sutherland) : Is the Minister aware that he inherited a confused position, and that he has confounded it further by leaving until the

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summer of 1992 the point at which the Arts Council must produce its national strategy when it is clear that the Arts Council is having to produce a strategy now, and that it is one of cuts, especially in the funding of companies in the regions? The companies that have been dependent on regional arts association funding will be especially heavily hit by the proposals. How is that gap in time to be filled? Will it be filled by further closures of theatres throughout the country?

Mr. Renton : I am disappointed by the hon. Gentleman. I hope that he will not mind my saying that I saw him in Glasgow at the new concert hall two weeks ago. Glasgow has been a magnificent example of successful arts programmes throughout the year. There has been a great revival in that city. A new concert hall has been built, and there have been more than 3,000 artistic performances in Glasgow this year. To talk in such dire and critical terms is unrealistic-- [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman represents a Scottish constituency, and I thought that he was talking about Scotland. The Arts Council has received an increase of 13 per cent. in its funding from my Department this year. It will receive an increase of 11.5 per cent. in the year ahead, well above the expected rate of inflation. Because of that, the Arts Council was able yesterday to announce favourable decisions about the enhancement fund.

Mr. Richard Luce (Shoreham) : I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend's decision to pursue the principles of devolution of funding for the arts and a strengthening of accountability. Can he make it clear beyond doubt that the Arts Council will continue to have a singularly important role to play, especially in devising a national strategy for the arts, and that there will be no substantial further devolution until my right hon. Friend is satisfied about the standard and calibre of all the regional arts boards?

Mr. Renton : I thank my right hon. Friend for his support. I am aware that it was he who originally commissioned the Wilding report in 1988, which pointed us in this direction. Indeed, my right hon. Friend announced these reforms earlier this year.

I wholeheartedly agree with my right hon. Friend that the Arts Council should continue to have a central role, not least in developing a national arts strategy, the aim of which will be to set out our medium and long-term objectives for support of the arts, against the charted objectives of the Arts Council itself. That will be an important role for the Arts Council.

One of the reasons for the phasing of the delegation is to give me time to make certain that the new regional arts boards are capable, confident and properly staffed to take on further responsibilities before we ask major clients to move across to them.

Mr. Donald Coleman (Neath) : Will the Minister confirm that, despite what he has said about the Welsh National Opera company, that part of the company's grant which is applied to touring in England is to be cut? Does not he realise the adverse effect that that will have on audiences so successfully built up in England and on the survival of the company? Will he seek to have the matter reopened by the Arts Council, to reassess the situation and

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to recognise the value of the Welsh National Opera company not only to Wales but to the whole of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Renton : I am delighted to give the hon. Gentleman the categoric assurance that he is wrong. I repeat, because the hon. Gentleman does not seem to have heard me, that the Arts Council of Great Britain has already announced an increase of 11 per cent. in the grant for 1991-92 to Welsh National Opera for touring in England, taking the total grant from £2.8 million to £3.1 million, an increase well above the rate of inflation and nothing for the Welsh National Opera to complain about.

Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South) : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his vigorous and imaginative approach, but will he look again at the position of Welsh National Opera? Is he aware that I was told by my noble Friend Lord Crickhowell, a former Secretary of State for Wales, that this morning the Welsh National Opera company's finance and general purposes committee decided that the company may have to close? Will he, therefore, as a matter of urgency, call in Mr. Peter Palumbo to discuss the matter? I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree with me that the Welsh National Opera is an international asset of priceless worth.

Mr. Renton : It would be wrong for me to pretend that my noble Friend Lord Crickhowell has not been in touch with me as well, because he has. I repeat that the Welsh National Opera's touring grant has been increased by 11 per cent. The Welsh Arts Council announced this morning an enhancement fund of £175,000 for Welsh National Opera, information which may not have reached the finance and general purposes committee when it met. The revenue funding by the Welsh Arts Council is still to be announced, but against that background, Welsh National Opera's management may, on reflection, have second thoughts about its initial reaction. We all recognise the superb quality of the Welsh National Opera's productions, which we have all enjoyed in the past.

Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon) : Two thirds of Welsh National Opera's touring work is in England, and it is the major touring company in England, yet Opera North and English National Opera are receiving £600,000, while Welsh National Opera is receiving no enhancement at all. Notwithstanding any increase in inflation, that is biting into the company's financial plans for this year, so much so that it announced this morning that, unless a decision is made on further funding by 21 January, it will have no choice but to close in July.

As the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor came to an agreement that there would be joint funding of £175,000 from the Welsh Arts Council and £350,000 from the enhancement fund, why has the right hon. Gentleman allowed that agreement to be reneged on and the settlement to go forward with such devastating effect?

Mr. Renton : The hon. Gentleman misunderstands the position. I have checked it with my right hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce), the former Minister for the Arts. Arts Ministers do not decide on individual applications, and the reaction of Welsh Members this afternoon makes me glad about that. If they did, we would be constantly pressurised by one hon. Member or another asking why Y had done badly when X had done well.

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I repeat that the Welsh Arts Council, out of its total enhancement fund grant of £410,000, is giving £175,000 to Welsh National Opera. The Scottish Arts Council has received an enhancement fund grant of £700,000 or £800,000, and doubtless out of that it will give something to Scottish Opera. Scottish Opera has not received anything directly from the enhancement fund either.

I have been told that no immediate decisions to make cuts were taken at this morning's meeting of Welsh National Opera, and I am sure that the whole House will be delighted to hear that. It intends to discuss the position further with the Arts Council of Great Britain--which is quite right, if that is what it wants--and they intend to meet in late January. I fully share the hon. Gentleman's wish to achieve a satisfactory resolution that will enable Welsh National Opera to run a full programme during 1991.

Sir David Price (Eastleigh) : When all the changes have been implemented, what alteration in the balance of expenditure in the Arts Council vote does my right hon. Friend foresee? What will be spent centrally, and what will be spent regionally? Within a typical regional budget, what percentage will be Arts Council funding, and what percentage will come from the local authority? That is germane to the question of the balance of representation in regional arts.

Mr. Renton : My hon. Friend asks precisely the same questions that I have been asking since I took up the job of Minister for the Arts. The answer to his first question is that the figures are not yet available, and I have postponed moving to delegation until a detailed plan of costs and administrative structure is available to me. My hon. Friend's second question follows from his first. I cannot say now what the balance will be between the money that goes to the performing artist and that which is spent on administration. I do not want to move forward wholeheartedly until I am certain that a lower proportion of the money available will be spent on meeting administrative costs.

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : I want to express my pleasure that the Theatre Royal, Stratford East, which is in my constituency, is to receive £75,000, which is well deserved. I hope that the Minister will come to Newham to see what the borough is doing to support the arts, and that he will have discussions with the Secretary of State for the Environment to establish what additional resources can be made available to local authorities--perhaps recognising their support for the arts through the standard spending assessment. A number of local authorities are under great pressure, because, as we know, the arts are not a compulsory area of expenditure for them. What discussions are the Minister prepared to have with the Secretary of State for the Environment on that important matter?

Mr. Renton : I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. It is always nice to receive support, even if it is from an unusual quarter of the House. I was particularly pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman's support for the grant decided upon by the Arts Council for the Theatre Royal, Stratford East. I read in the newspapers this morning that its director was rather surprised at receiving a grant at all, so presumably it made a very good Christmas present for

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him. I know from that theatre's work that the grant is very well deserved. If an opportunity presents itself, I shall be delighted to visit that theatre with the hon. Gentleman.

During Question Time a few days ago, I told the hon. Gentleman that if there is clear evidence that local authorities are unnecessarily or excessively cutting arts spending, I would certainly consider that question and seek to discuss it with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. I have no statutory responsibilities in that regard, but, with the hon. Gentleman's help, I will gladly keep a close eye on the situation.

Dr. John G. Blackburn (Dudley, West) : Will my right hon. Friend accept my warm and generous personal congratulations on his appointment, and on his infinite wisdom in selecting my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden) as his Parliamentary Private Secretary?

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is no cultural or artistic desert north of Watford, and that that is particularly true of the west midlands, where the arts are flourishing? The arts world will welcome with acclamation my right hon. Friend's statement, for which I applaud him, that 49 per cent. of the funding will go to the provinces.

Mr. Renton : I thank my hon. Friend for his supportive remarks, and can only endorse his comments on my wisdom in appointing as my Parliamentary Private Secretary my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden), who is well known for his interest in the arts. I was glad that he accepted.

Mr. Frank Haynes (Ashfield) : I get the awful feeling that we have been conned again. I can read this Minister like a book. I want to know what help will be given to the east midlands--never mind the first division that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher), or even the second division. We are a non-league club, and I want to know what the Minister is going to do about it.

Mr. Renton : If, from my quick reading of the list, I have interpreted the acronyms correctly, I suspect that the Firebird trust is in the east midlands, and I note that it is receiving an enhancement award of £24,000. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity of visiting that trust during the Christmas holidays to establish how it is planning to spend that money.

Mr. John Bowis (Battersea) : Does my right hon. Friend agree that a balance must be struck between the benefits of delegation and those of devolution, and that the companies concerned must have confidence in their funding bodies? Will he take great care not to devolve responsibility for companies having national and international reputations until, and unless, they confirm that they have confidence in the regional body as opposed to the national body?

Mr. Renton : My hon. Friend makes the point extremely well. It is precisely the case that I want the regional arts boards to be known and respected in their areas--as a consequence of their chairmen, staff, and the professional advice available to them--before major delegation takes place.

Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : Is not the Minister being a bit complacent? He is failing to acknowledge the

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consternation that he has caused to supporters of the Welsh National Opera throughout the country. Will he make whatever representations are necessary to end the confusion and to secure WNO's future?

Mr. Renton : I stress that the decisions in question are taken by the Arts Council, not by the Minister for the Arts. I do not want to repeat the figures, but I acknowledge the proper feeling of caring and love for the Welsh National Opera that is shared by the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies. I hope that, when he reconsiders the figures that I mentioned today on the increased touring grant, and the enhancement money and increase in revenue funding from the Arts Council, he and the company will arrive at the conclusion that, in all the circumstances, the Welsh National Opera has done quite well. Naturally it would have liked to receive more--but which arts customer in this country would not like that?

Mr. Richard Alexander (Newark) : Will my right hon. Friend put some flesh on his comments about local authority representation on the regional boards? Will he ensure wherever possible that each county has a representative on the regional authority? For example, it would be deeply unacceptable if Nottinghamshire were to be represented by someone from Leicestershire or Derbyshire. I refer to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) my right hon. Friend's remarks about the grant to the Firebird trust. Neither the hon. Member for Ashfield nor I have ever heard of its activities in north Nottinghamshire, and that concerns us.

Mr. Renton : Perhaps my hon. Friend will also want toi inform his ignorance during the Christmas holiday, and will tell me the result of his investigations when we meet again in January. To allow more flexible local authority representation on the boards, I moved on from the decisions taken by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor). I decided that, although the membership of the boards should be kept as small as possible, they could be increased to 18 if necessary ; and that if local authorities really considered that number unsatisfactory and still too small, they could make representations to the Arts Council and to myself to increase it up to 24 members, of which one third could be local authority representatives.

How the local authorities choose those representatives is up to them. I do not want to impose a rigid arrangement, because the situation will differ from area to area. One way would be for all local authorities to meet together in the consultative forum that I mentioned, and there elect their representatives on the arts boards. It will be better for them to decide for themselves rather than have the selection method imposed by me, from the centre.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : What about money for libraries--and for books in particular? What is the situation in respect of the natural history museum, where, for the sake of £80,000 to £100,000, a very important scientific reference section is in crisis, and of the British library, which cannot even afford subscriptions to some of the scientific periodicals that it most certainly ought to be able to afford?

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Mr. Renton : I hope that the hon. Gentleman, whom I have known for many years, will not fall into the trap into which the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) falls of always using the word "crisis" whenever he talks about arts or library funding. As to the natural history museum, as the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) knows, precise allocation of funds within the museum is a matter for its director and trustees ; it is not a matter for me. As the hon. Gentleman also knows, the recent public expenditure settlements gave museums and galleries an average 8.5 per cent. increase in running costs.

I met the chairman of the British library this morning, and we had a long talk about the development of the British library building. I cannot say that he pointed me in the direction of the crisis in running costs that the hon Gentleman has just mentioned.

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale) : Is my right hon. Friend aware that today's news that Opera North is to receive £650,000 from the enhancement fund has been warmly welcomed in Leeds and the north of England? It should also be welcomed in the east midlands, as Opera North tours regularly to Nottingham. Without that extra money Opera North, and not the Welsh National Opera, would have folded. It is already having to cut its current Christmas and new year programme. Does he agree that, if we are to move towards more devolution to the regions--and perhaps if one day Opera North devolves to the Yorkshire region--it is crucial that we have a fair distribution of resources? Despite this welcome news, will my right hon. Friend ignore the special pleading of Welsh National Opera, as it is still the best-funded regional opera company in Great Britain, and we must move towards greater parity of opera funding?

Mr. Renton : My hon. Friend's comments again make me glad that I have the Arts Council as a filter between me and representations made by hon. Members. I am pleased with his comments about Opera North. It is true that it has received a substantial sum from the enhancement fund and that it does not confine its activities to the north of England. In conjunction with the Royal Shakespeare company, it put on the extremely successful performance of "Showboat" in London this year. The only trouble was that it was such a sell-out that many people who wished to see it could not get tickets.

Dr. Kim Howells (Pontypridd) : I hope that the Minister will not ignore the representations made on behalf of the Welsh National Opera company. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price) spoke about the way in which moneys were to be divided up after the reorganisation. I make a plea on behalf of writers, artists and potters and others who should be receiving money that it does not go into the pockets of the professional aesthetes and fat cats who sit on the quangos which so often govern the arts in the regions.

Mr. Renton : I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall not ignore the points put to me about Welsh National Opera. In answering a number of serious questions on that subject this afternoon, I have pointed out that the balance of the funding to be made available to Welsh National Opera in the year ahead is rather better than it seemed at first sight. I hope that their initial reaction will be slightly different after they have thought a little more about it.

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I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman's second point. Indeed, to make certain that there is no increase in administrative costs, I have asked to receive the report by April 1991. In all fairness, it must be said that there are many people who sit on such quangos, or non-governmental bodies, to help us with advice about the arts

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : The Government were going to get rid of quangos.

Mr. Renton : I suggest that the hon. Gentleman waits a minute. Those people give their service free of charge, and we are grateful that they do so.

Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside) : If a regional arts board wishes to supplement its income by running a lottery, will it be allowed to do so, or would that cut across any plans that the Government might have for running a national lottery to supplement the arts?

Mr. Renton : My hon. Friend will know that that question should be directed to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary rather than to me. The Home Office has overall responsibility for policy on lotteries. At the moment, if the lottery had a limited prize it would be within the law, but if it were substantial, it would not be. I will certainly bring my hon. Friends remarks about lotteries to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Mr. Robert Banks (Harrogate) : Can my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that the granting of public money to the regions will be fairly balanced so that areas such as Yorkshire compare favourably with Wales, Scotland and elsewhere, taking into account the size of their populations?

Mr. Renton : That is an extremely interesting point. At the moment there is a great imbalance between what London receives, in pounds per head of population, and what some of the regions receive. I am sure that, as we develop the national arts strategy, that is one of the aspects which should be considered. If it is in order, Mr. Speaker, may I say that, when I looked at the figures this morning, I realised that my region, South East Arts, gets the lowest grant per head of population in the kingdom?

BILL PRESENTED

Welfare of Animals at Slaughter

Sir Richard Body, supported by Sir Nicholas Bonsor, Mr. Andrew Bowden, Mr. Bill Walker, Mr. Christopher Hawkins and Mr. Jerry Wiggin, presented a Bill to make further provision for the welfare of animals at slaughter : And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 25 January and to be printed. [Bill 52.]

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Elimination of Poverty in Retirement

4.55 pm

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) : I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require local authorities and health authorities to monitor the condition of their retired population ; to eliminate standing charges on gas, electricity and water ; to exempt pensioners from licence charges and telephone rental ; to extend pensioners' concessionary fare schemes ; to make provision for the calculation of old age pensions by reference to average earnings ; and to appoint a Minister with responsibility for retired people.

This Bill is very timely. Throughout the past few weeks, the country has been shivering in the grip of Arctic weather. Yet, as of 9 December, no cold weather payments had been made. For cold weather payments to be made, there have to be seven consecutive days with a temperature below freezing point, and the wind chill factor is not taken into account.

Pensioners are living in greater poverty than in any other country in western Europe, and the situation is deteriorating. The lot of many pensioners is to see local hospitals close, local health services curtailed and social service facilities cut because of local government expenditure cuts. In many of our cities, there is a possible threat to the concessionary fares scheme which, in London, allows free transport for pensioners. Pensioners feel that some of those services are under serious threat.

The value of the pension is the crucial issue and is at the centre of the Bill. In November 1979 the average single state old-age pension was 20.4 per cent. of gross earnings. As of next April, with the increase that the Government have announced, it will be 16 per cent., and 25.6 per cent. for a pensioner couple. Quite simply, the reason is that, in 1980, the Government broke the link between the state old-age pension and average earnings and instead linked it to average prices, which meant that the amount of money taken away from each pensioner is now the astronomical figure of £14 a week for a single pensioner and more than £20 a week for a pensioner couple. That is an awful lot of money--it adds up to more than £6 billion taken away during that period.

Contrast that with the billions of pounds which have been handed out in tax relief to the super-rich, who can use it to buy second cars, third homes and fourth holidays each year. The property boom in London is the beneficiary of those tax cuts, and the pensioners have paid for them.

The Bill seeks to restore the link as soon as possible. We must remember that pensioners lose out because the link with earnings has been broken and pensions are linked to prices instead, and if one considers how the retail prices index affects low-income households--the majority of those on the state old-age pension are low-income households--there are some interesting statistics. In the third quarter of this year, the retail prices index showed a year-on-year increase of 7.4 per cent. For a pensioner household the figure was 8 per cent. The year-on-year figure for the whole year was 10.6 per cent., and 12 per cent. for pensioner households. Pensioners lose not only because of the break of the link with earnings, but because they are small households. They shop at corner shops, where prices are higher, and they buy smaller quantities. The benefits of going to

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hypermarkets on ring roads and bypasses are not available to them. They have to shop in more expensive places. The state old-age pension should reflect old people's needs.

In 1987, 25 per cent. of pensioners' incomes were less than half the average, and the figure has increased rapidly since : state pensions are in a worse position as a percentage of all pensioner incomes. Pensioners are becoming progressively worse off. The Social Security Act 1986, for example, damaged the state earnings-related pension scheme by removing consideration of the best 20 years and substituting the entire working lifetime. That has made the prospects of many people in work particularly bad. The 1988 social security reforms made 2,090,000 pensioners worse off immediately. It should not be forgotten that the Prime Minister pioneered the introduction of the social fund, ending the system of automatic payments under the single payment scheme and substituting an arrangement allowing loans or grants.

During the last full year in which single payments were made, 12 per cent. of all single payments went to pensioners or pensioner households. In the latest year for which figures are available, only 0.1 per cent. of crisis loans and only 4.5 per cent. of budget loans were made to pensioners. That was not because pensioners did not need such loans ; it was because the present culture, and the present evaluation of society, mean that people receive grants if they are entitled to them, but will not take out a loan knowing that in the future it will have to be reclaimed from pensions or benefits. The loan system is one of the most disgraceful aspects of the current social security legislation, and I believe that it should be abolished.

My Bill contains a series of comprehensive measures that would dramatically change society's attitude to elderly people. We should remember, that one day, every Member of Parliament will be a pensioner. One day, everyone will need help from someone else. The idea that everyone can take care of himself is arrant nonsense : everyone requires health facilities and support, and it is about time that we recognised the enormous debt that we owe to the pensioners who have put so much into our society.

First, the Bill provides for the appointment of a Minister responsible for co-ordinating pension policy throughout Government Departments--policy on housing, transport, health education and the environment. All those matters affect pensioners. I do not believe that, for example, education should be available only for those receiving job-related training or attending college or university ; education should be available for life, including the adult education classes which have been so drastically cut. The Minister for Pensions would have a wide brief.

Secondly, local authorities would be required to produce an annual report on all their activities as they relate to pensioners. The report would list, for instance, the advice services that authorities provide, the day centres in the area and other facilities that they already offer or for

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which they are campaigning : in other words, it would constitute an audit of what is available to pensioner households throughout the community.

Thirdly, health authorities would be required to produce a statement on the condition of the elderly people in their communities, containing details of, for instance, life expectancy, the health facilities that are available, the effects of local hospital closures and the centring of facilities on remote general hospitals, and the need for specialised services--chiropody, for example--and for health centres for the elderly, on the same principle as well-woman clinics.

Over the past few years, we have witnessed the privatisation of many utilities. Over the past few weeks we have seen the obscenity of the sale of electricity boards, enabling vast profits to be made by those fortunate enough to get hold of a few shares in a service that should never have been sold in the first place. The Bill proposes the abolition of standing charges for gas, electricity and water in pensioner households ; the profits made by the companies concerned could easily cover such charges without any increase in unit costs for other consumers. The Bill also seeks to abolish television licence fees for pensioner households, a matter in regard to which my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) has acted decisively in the past. The same applies to telephone rentals ; moreover--this was brought forcefully to my attention today--why should pensioner households now be expected to pay for calls to directory inquiries?

The Bill would also introduce a national scheme to restore free travel on public transport and the earnings link. Above all--this is crucial--it seeks to meet the demand by the National Pensioners Convention that the state old-age pension be set at half the amount of average earnings for couples, and at a third of that amount for single people. That would mean a pension of about £75 a week, which is no more than the pensioners of this country deserve.

I hope that the Bill will receive support.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Jeremy Corbyn, Mr. Harry Cohen, Mrs. Alice Mahon, Mr. David Winnick, Mr. Dennis Skinner, Mrs. Audrey Wise, Mr. Bob Clay, Mr. Tom Clarke, Ms. Dawn Primarolo, Mr. Bernie Grant, Mr. Chris Smith and Mr. John Hughes.

Elimination of Poverty in Retirement

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn accordingly presented a Bill to require local authorities and health authorities to monitor the condition of their retired population ; to eliminate standing charges on gas, electricity and water ; to exempt pensioners from licence charges and telephone rental ; to extend pensioners' concessionary fare schemes ; to make provision for the calculation of old age pensions by reference to average earnings ; and to appoint a Minister with responsibility for retired people : And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 15 February and to be printed. [Bill 53.]

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Points of Order

5.6 pm

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. One hour and 36 minutes after Question Time, it is a bit difficult to raise a point of order arising out of questions, but that is what Mr. Speaker asked me to do.

On Scottish questions, we reached question 20. Question 21 concerned provision in Scottish hospitals in relation to casualties who may return from the Gulf. That may be happening in a horrendous way before our next Scottish Question Time. I simply wanted to ask whether the Scottish Office has inquired about the possibility of a statement being made, or of a question being answered orally.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd) : I understand that Mr. Speaker suggested to the hon. Gentleman that he raise his point of order after the statements. I can, however, answer his point by saying that Mr. Speaker has not been informed that a statement is to be made.

Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you advise me? Between now and the rising of the House there will be little time or opportunity for hon. Members to ask about the advice that should be given to traders throughout the country about Sunday opening. Last Thursday, I asked the Leader of the House--who, I am glad to see, is present now--to arrange a debate this week so that the matter could be highlighted and traders might not infringe the law.

In Prime Minister's questions yesterday, the Prime Minister might have been expected to repeat what his predecessor had often said about the law. Can you tell me, Madam Deputy Speaker, what course I should pursue to ensure that a debate is held so that all retailers may be informed of the law and how they should act?

Madam Deputy Speaker : That is barely a point of order. I think that the hon Gentleman is trying to hijack the next debate. I am sure that he is a wise enough parliamentarian to know that he may well have an opportunity to raise his point during the Christmas Adjournment motion debate. As he has pointed out, the Leader of the House is present in the Chamber.

Mr. Frank Haynes (Ashfield) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. On the front page of today's Evening Standard --right on the front page--is a picture of the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), who has apparently moved into new accommodation not far from the House of Commons. We are supposed to believe in security in this place--and out there. But the name of the street where the house is situated and the number on a pillar outside the door are clearly shown in the picture. Can something be done about security? We all have to take responsibility for it. The media must also act responsibly. They have failed the nation.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Both the Chair and the House take very seriously what the hon. Gentleman has said. Though it is not a point of order, I hope that his comments have been noted in all quarters of the House.

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Adjournment (Christmas)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That this House at its rising on Thursday 20th December do adjourn until Monday 14th January.-- [Mr. Patnick.]

5.9 pm

Mr. John Biffen (Shropshire, North) : It is customary to use the Adjournment debate to reflect upon matters of political immediacy, even though one realises that the Government cannot give an authoritative answer at the conclusion of the debate. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will convey to the Treasury, with Christmas good will, the hope that it will reflect seriously on points that are of considerable and growing moment. I refer to the deepening recession that is evident now throughout the economy and which, in my judgment, has been made that much worse by the inflexibility of a fixed exchange rate system that inhibits an interest rate policy.

A modest roll call of honour accounts for about a dozen Tory Back Benchers who were not seduced by the arguments for membership of the exchange rate mechanism. They represent an unrepentant set of Davids against the Goliaths of the Confederation of British Industry, the City and the occupants of the Treasury Bench, but I do not believe that the Goliaths won the argument in the recent developments. The debate was conditioned by the belief that membership of the exchange rate mechanism would confer great benefits. With the strength of continental currencies, it was believed that we could go for lower interest rates without prejudicing the parity of sterling, because it would receive support from our neighbours and friends. That view was reinforced by the gesture of British membership, which was accompanied by a 1 per cent. cut in interest rates. Whatever expectations were encouraged during those early hours have not been fulfilled since.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : It is over 15 weeks ago.

Mr. Biffen : I know that I shall have the vocal, and perhaps even further, support of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). He is a very good ally. The very fact that he comes alongside a Tory radical allows me to understand his point.

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