House of Commons Hansard Debates for 4 Feb 1991

Fraud

13. Sir Rhodes Boyson : To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what estimate he has of the cost-effectiveness of staff deployed on fraud work in his Department.

Mr. Jack : The cost-effectiveness of fraud investigation work is measured in terms of staff costs set against the amount of benefit saved. In the year ended 31 March 1990, the most recent for which figures are available, staff costs were an estimated £44 million. In the same period investigators achieved benefit savings of £309 million. In other words, £7 was saved for every £1 spent.

Sir Rhodes Boyson : I thank the Minister for that reply. It shows that the money is well spent because the more money that we spend on genuine unemployed people, the less is spent on the non-genuine. Have the Government any plans to bring back a work test for the so-called able- bodied unemployed, as in 1601 and 1834, so that those who claim benefit and say that they are unemployed can be tested to ensure that that is the case, especially in our big cities?

Mr. Jack : My right hon. Friend has an enviable record in this area. I have noted his contribution to policy development, as outlined in the debate on 28 February 1984 in the House. As a result, my right hon. Friend will know that stringent rules are already in operation which require people who seek unemployment benefit to demonstrate that they are actively seeking employment. The Government have already come under some criticism for the way in which that test was to be applied, but it appears to be working because about 50,000 claimants who have already been advised of the requirements of the test have proceeded to look for work and can continue to claim their benefit.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Perhaps the Minister would also like access to the cat-o'-nine-tails, which I am sure would be equally effective. The Department's reorganisation of benefit offices is resulting in the loss either of civil servants at the top of the scale--whose useful experience was gained at great expense--or of those lower down, who are unable to retain their jobs. What use is that, pray?

Mr. Jack : I thought that we were whipped enough as it was, without a reference to the cat-o'-nine-tails. In terms of the resources employed to detect fraud, which I believe is the point underlying the hon. Lady's question, the Government have doubled the number of investigating officers since taking office, from 1,724 to 3,179.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

Sentences (Appeals)

30. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement about the number of appeals he has made about the leniency of sentences.

The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : Twenty-five cases referred by me have been heard by the Court of Appeal. In 21 of them, a substantially heavier sentence was

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substituted. Additionally, I have referred two cases in Northern Ireland and in each a substantially heavier sentence was substituted.

Mr. Marshall : I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on a success rate of more than 80 per cent., which demonstrates the need for the powers that he exercises. I congratulate him, too, on creating a tariff structure of which judges will take account in future sentencing policies.

The Attorney-General : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's opening words, but the Court of Appeal creates the structure--through the valuable guidelines that it publishes on cases that I have referred under the power that Parliament conferred two years ago.

Mr. Maclennan : Does the Attorney-General agree that the peculiarity of our sentencing compared with that of other countries is not its over- leniency but that many more of our offenders spend much longer in prison than is the case in other western European countries? As to the problem of disparity, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman study with renewed interest the possibility of establishing a sentencing council?

The Attorney-General : The latter point is for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. One can make a number of international comparisons, but it is important to remember that sentencing is an art, not a science--and a very difficult one at that. It calls for sense and sensitivity, learning and not a little courage. Although the new power is valuable, it is reassuring that in only a tiny proportion of cases--about one in every 1,000--does the Court of Appeal feel it necessary to advise a junior court that its sentence was unduly lenient.

Mr. Holt : My right hon. and learned Friend's statement is much welcomed. Does he intend to take powers to stop the current practice whereby courts are allowed to impose penalty points for driving offences concurrently, when topping up would usually result in a ban? Recently in my constituency, a man with eight penalty points on his licence was given an additional three points, but they were imposed concurrently--and that after he had killed someone in a road accident.

The Attorney-General : I shall not comment on an individual case. Sentencing is a matter for the judiciary. The Executive cannot interfere, but the legislature can. Whether it should do so is initially a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Transport.

Mr. Bermingham : Does the Attorney-General agree that, although he has been careful with the sentences referred to the Court of Appeal, in the light of the letters that many right hon. and hon. Members receive from the public asking why a certain sentence was not the subject of an appeal, it might be helpful to have more publicity about the guidelines used by his office in determining which cases will or will not go to the Court of Appeal?

The Attorney-General : I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's opening remarks. We recently exchanged correspondence about a painful and distressing case in his constituency. The guidelines are published in the law reports. I believe that I am right in saying that each time an appeal results in an extended sentence, the result is

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published in the law reports. I must, of course, adhere to the guidelines, because there would be no point in my referring a case that fell fair and square within the ambit. One must also remember that the statute refers not to a lenient sentence but to an unduly lenient sentence.

Crown Prosecution Service

31. Mr. Hind : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on the number of cases prosecuted by the Crown prosecution service in 1990.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : In the 12 months to the end of September 1990, the Crown prosecution service completed 1, 729,282 cases, of which 140,326 were in the Crown court.

Mr. Hind : I am grateful for that answer. Is my right hon. and learned Friend now satisfied that the Crown prosecution service has settled into its task? It has attracted a great deal of criticism from various parts of the country, but does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is now doing a fine job, prosecuting and dealing expeditiously with many cases?

The Solicitor-General : I am grateful for my hon. Friend's remarks about the Crown prosecution service. It is settling in well. It conducts a great many cases with skill and confidence which is recognised by courts and the public throughout the country.

Mr. Fraser : Will the Solicitor-General compare the resources given to the Crown prosecution service with those given to the legal aid service and say why he thinks that it is right that the rate of remuneration for those prosecuting criminal cases should go up more quickly than the rate for those defending them?

The Solicitor-General : I am not sure that that is by any means always, if ever, the case--the rates should be broadly in balance. The amount of money spent on legal aid has been going up very fast this year.

The Gulf

32. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Attorney-General what legal advice he has sought recently from academic international lawyers on legal issues affecting developments in the Gulf.

The Attorney-General : I give advice on my own responsibility. The question whether I have sought the views of others is normally confidential.

Mr. Dalyell : As a member of the War Cabinet, what advice has the Attorney-General received on the percentage of bombing of military targets in Kuwait, which is significantly less than the pounding of Iraq? What advice has he received about which United Nations resolution justify the bombing for 18 days of Iraq? Has he received any advice on whether certain animal species, such as the dugong, the sea cow and the green turtle, have a right to exist, not to be annihilated by human Front Bench folly?

The Attorney-General : The hon. Gentleman knows that any advice that I give and any advice I receive as a Law Officer is, for good reasons, confidential. Throughout this affair, Britain has committed itself to acting strictly in accordance with international law. In that context, the

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principles of international law require that account be taken of two factors when planning attacks on military objectives. First, civilian losses, whether of life or property, should be avoided or minimised as far as practicable. Secondly, we should not cause civilian losses that are disproportionate to the military advantage expected from the attack as a whole. The hon. Gentleman will know, because it has been frequently stated by the Prime Minister and others, that British military commanders have been instructed to comply with those principles.

On the wider question with which the hon. Gentleman concluded his remarks, regrettable though environmental damage is, the responsibility for it lies with President Saddam.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that we wish that the conflict had never been started, but that, as it has been started, it must be finished? Does he further agree that the United Nations resolution on which the war is fought is one of humanity--finishing the war as soon as possible? If we continue with the attitude shown by some-- luckily a minority--in the House, all tyrants will always prosper and justice will never be done.

The Attorney-General : My hon. Friend recalls accurately that the Security Council's operative resolution, No. 678, calls on member states to take such measures as are necessary to implement resolution 660, which calls for the immediate and unconditional withdrawal from Kuwait of the Iraqi forces, and to restore international peace and security in the area. That is what this country, together with its allies, are about.

City Fraud

33. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Attorney-General whether he has any plans to meet the director of the Serious Fraud Office to discuss City fraud ; and if he will make a statement.

The Attorney-General : I expect to meet the director again shortly to discuss matters of departmental interest.

Mr. Skinner : At those meetings with the director, does the Attorney -General raise with him the question of the £600 million fiddle at Harrods? Do they discuss the ways and means of how to resolve the matter, or do they say, "Well, we will give it a nod and a wink and reckon it has not happened", because some of the participants were too close to the Tory Government? If they do not deal with that, what will the Attorney-General do about the recent report on Blue Arrow which suggests that action should be taken against the executive and non-executive directors of that firm? What action will he take--or do the Government want to concentrate on the working-class people who might be caught with a bit of social security fraud at £15 a week? Are those the double standards in which the Attorney-General believes?

The Attorney-General : It may not make much difference to the hon. Gentleman, but when I consult the director I consult her, not him. As for Blue Arrow, among the cases in which preparatory hearings are already in progress is that of County NatWest, which embraces the other matter. The hon. Gentleman should perhaps give credit to the fact that,

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since its inception, the Serious Fraud Office has prosecuted 43 cases and 95 defendants, of whom 60 have been convicted.

Mr. Skinner : Are they all in open prisons? The Kuwaiti royal family --

Mr. Speaker : Order.

The Attorney-General : We all know that the hon. Gentleman is tortured by self-doubt, but I am afraid that I must continue to intrude on his soliloquy.

Mr. Skinner : They will not understand that outside.

The Attorney-General: "To Beast or not to Beast" is the hon. Gentleman's question ; my question is the one that he originally asked, and I am answering it.

Decisions about whether to prosecute are made on the basis of the code for Crown prosecutors, which has been scrutinised by Parliament and which takes no account whatever of the partisan considerations that the hon. Gentleman has at the very heart and core of his being.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Namibia

36. Mr. Pike : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what developments have there been in aid to Namibia since independence.

The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : On Namibia's independence last March, we announced £10 million of aid for commitment over three years. We have agreed with their Government that education should be the first priority. A number of initiatives are already under way. We are also helping with police training, public-sector reform and the resettlement of returnees, and we are exploring the possibilities for assistance in other sectors, including agriculture and health.

Mr. Pike : I thank the Minister for that answer. Does she, however, recognise the importance to Namibia of development of its fishing industry, which provides employment prospects and also increases public revenue? Will she consider giving aid for the development of that industry, and confirm that she recognises the associated problem of Walvis bay and what it means to Namibia?

Mrs. Chalker : I have just returned from Namibia. While I was there, I was able briefly to discuss the whole question of fisheries. The hon. Gentleman may remember that, just before independence, Dr. John Beddington of Imperial college, London undertook a study and made some preliminary recommendations on fisheries management. We want to explore the scope for further support in that regard ; we have offered the Namibian Government further assistance, but they have yet to respond.

As for Walvis bay, we voted on Security Council resolution 432, advocating its integration into Namibia. We continue to believe that the issue can best be dealt with by means of low-key bilateral negotiation, but we have offered to help and have put in the right words in the right places.

Mr. Burt : Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us believe that our development aid has been very well spent in Namibia, helping to fashion the possibility of

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success from a near-disaster? Does she feel that there are any lessons to be learnt that will be helpful in the development of the new South Africa, where aid and assistance will also be needed to help the people emerge from another near-disaster into success?

Mrs. Chalker : I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He knows that we began English language teaching for Namibians long before independence. In South Africa we have been providing teacher training for English language and other subjects through the Molteno project for about four and a half years. By giving English language and other educational training, we are laying the foundations, but we must build on that through projects such as public sector reform, which we are carrying out in Namibia. We must also ensure that each programme is tailored to needs. I assure my hon. Friend that I shall be looking at the projects in South Africa which now amount to about £10 million of aid to black South Africans.

Cambodia

37. Mr. Allen : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the current position in Cambodia.

Mrs. Chalker : We are providing humanitarian assistance to Combodians by supporting the activities of British non-governmental organisations and United Nations agencies inside Cambodia and in the camps along the Thai border. We are ready to consider with other donors how Cambodia's reconstruction and development needs can be met in the context of a comprehensive political settlement.

Mr. Allen : I thank the Minister for that reply. In the light of today's reports about renewed fighting between the Cambodian Government and the Khmer Rouge, and the comments in the current Jane's Defence Review on the strength of the Khmer Rouge, may I ask the Minister once again to state in the clearest possible terms for the public record that this country has never given assistance to train the military of any description fighting against the Phnom Penh Government?

Mrs. Chalker : I do not know how many times I have said this before, but I shall say it again. We have never given and will never give support of any kind to the Khmer Rouge. I much regret it if fighting has again broken out because, as I think the hon. Gentleman knows, we have repeatedly called on all parties to stop fighting and reach a comprehensive settlement. The formal ceasefire and an end to outside arms supplies are integral parts of the draft comprehensive settlement document. The Cambodians have already shown that a ceasefire isolated from a settlement just will not work. Therefore, it has to be ceasefire and settlement under the terms negotiated by the permanent five.

Mr. Lester : Will my right hon. Friend use her considerable talent to try to persuade her colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to enable the Phnom Penh regime to understand the details of the United Nations plan? There are difficulties in the military and in the supervision concept. It would be helpful if my right hon. Friend were able to make contact through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office with the Phnom Penh

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regime so that it could have a much clearer understanding of the value of the United Nations plan and the fact that it is a real hope for Cambodia.

Mrs. Chalker : I shall be very pleased to talk to my noble Friend who takes the political responsibility for that, but, of course, we are both in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I hope that the co-chairman of the Paris conference, who visited Hanoi last weekend and put pressure on the Vietnamese to accept the draft settlement document, will persuade Hun Sen to do likewise. I know that they had a long conference, but so far we have not had reports of its outcome. I shall be in touch with my hon. Friend when I have anything to tell him about that weekend conference.

Sir Russell Johnston : Does the Minister agree that many of us believe that to be effective there is no point in simply calling on both sides to have a ceasefire, but that we must, in view of the terribly poor condition of Cambodia, reopen direct bilateral aid to Phnom Penh, because failing to do so gives an economic weapon to the Khmer Rouge?

Mrs. Chalker : Unless there is a ceasefire and an end to hostilities, we shall not be able to carry out in practical terms what the hon. Gentleman asks for. As he knows, we already give humanitarian aid. We also give aid through UNICEF, the World Health Organisation and the World Food Programme, but until there is a ceasefire and fighting stops, there is no way in which we can be more active and more helpful to the Cambodian people, however much we might wish to be so.

Mrs. Clwyd : Month after month the Minister comes here and talks about the humanitarian aid that we provide--very little through NGOs. Does not she realise that it is a fleabite compared with the amount of assistance that Cambodia, devastated by war and economic isolation over the past few years, needs? Does not she realise that one in five children dies from waterborne diseases? The water reconstruction project in Phnom Penh has come to a halt because the Soviets have withdrawn their aid. Does not the Minister know about the $49 million in the United Nations Development Programme account that is ready to be spent in Cambodia? Surely it is not beyond the wit even of the present Government and of the Minister to do something about this dreadful situation.

Mrs. Chalker : Sometimes I wonder whether the hon. Lady lives in the real world. I should be happy to see the United Nations money spent-- [Interruption.] If the hon. Lady will listen for a moment she will get an answer. The Government are fully ready to consider requests from the United Nations agencies, from the NGOs and from Voluntary Service Overseas in respect of 1991. We are prepared to help, but in the absence of a ceasefire--while hostilities continue--it is not practicable to undertake what the hon. Lady asks for.

Aid Programmes

38. Mr. Ian Taylor : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what weight is being given to sound economic management as a criterion for aid programmes to any country.

Mrs. Chalker : Sound economic management is a very significant factor in assessing whether our aid can be used effectively in any country.

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Mr. Taylor : Is my right hon. Friend aware of the contents of the International Monetary Fund report on the Soviet Union which indicates that, with the failure of perestroika and the failure of the Soviets to introduce proper market mechanisms, giving aid to the Soviet Union is almost like throwing money into the Volga? Does she realise that this report has principles in common with our aid programme elsewhere in the world, including Africa? Is it being studied carefully?

Mrs. Chalker : I believe I am right in saying that Jean-Michel Camdessus, the president of the IMF, has set up a committee to consider the report's conclusions and recommendations. Our assessment is that it is a very valuable report.

In answer to my hon. Friend's second question, I recommend that he looks at the World bank's special programme for Africa proposals for the second phase. These show how, when due allowance is made for the statistics, the countries that follow a strong economic reform programme perform rather better than those which do not bother to do so. It is a lesson for all concerned that sound economic recovery programmes do bring success, even though slowly.

Baltic States

39. Mrs. Margaret Ewing : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further consideration has been given to changes in technical aid to the Soviet Union in light of events in the Baltic states.

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Mrs. Chalker : With our partners, we are watching developments in the Soviet Union closely. We have suspended EC technical assistance, although emergency and food aid may continue where we can guarantee delivery direct to those in need. There is no

Government-to-Government aid to the Soviet Union.

Mrs. Ewing : Although I welcome the Minister's response on the ending of technical aid to the Soviet Union, may I ask her to assure the House that the British Government will be in no way complacent in ensuring that pressure on the Soviet Union is maintained with a view to securing a peaceful resolution to events in the Baltic states? As there have been 20 deaths in the Baltic states in just three weeks, she must agree that there is no room for complacency. Can she assure us that no deal whatever will be done and that a blind eye will not be turned for the purpose of securing continued Soviet Union assistance in the Gulf?

Mrs. Chalker : As I said during previous Overseas Development questions, we deeply deplore the actions of the Soviet troops in Vilnius and Riga and their tragic consequences, which the hon. Lady mentioned. The behaviour of those troops is totally unacceptable and we have made our concern very well known to the Soviet authorities. The hon. Lady may like to know that the Foreign Secretary summoned the Soviet charge on 21 January to underline our concern, and in every forum in which we have encountered the Soviets we have made those concerns known. However, it may still be necessary for us, where possible, to help people directly through humanitarian aid.

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