| Previous Section | Home Page |
Mr. Arbuthnot : In the context of that sort of event, I do, because it is a sensible procedure. I did not mean that the chances of a disaster were 1 million to one, but that those were the odds that applied to leapfrogging. The disaster would happen only after that.
Mr. Spearing : So far we have not had a disaster on the Piccadilly line, and I hope that we do not. I mentioned the leapfrogging procedure as one of the hazards inherent in this regulation, but I also mentioned others.
About an hour and a half ago, there was an announcement at South Kensington station to say that the fire brigade had been called and that there was an emergency on the Piccadilly line. I do not know what sort of emergency it was. It could have been some horrible potential incident between South Kensington and Knightsbridge, but it is more likely that it has been avoided purely by chance. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) was a Minister, he had second thoughts. I hope that the present Ministers in the Department of Transport will have second thoughts about operator-only trains on the deep lines of the underground and about increasing risks to passengers by removing guards from Southern region. Some people have said--this is not an accusation-- that, in the search for reduced costs, the Government and the railway operators are indirectly increasing the hazards for passengers by bribing the staff. If that is untrue, the Government must say so.
10.35 pm
Mr. James Arbuthnot (Wanstead and Woodford) : I entirely agree with much of the speech by the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing). However, it is necessary to do our best to save money on the operation of the underground, so that the savings can be put into improved safety procedures and operating practices. The hon. Gentleman and I may disagree on some points of detail, but there are many matters on which we agree.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Mr. Bowis) on doing so well in the ballot, although I am not sure whether that is a matter for congratulate or commiseration. I also congratulate him on choosing an extremely important subject. I apologise to him and to the House as I shall not be able to be here at the close of the debate due to a constituency engagement.
I am one of the Bill's sponsors, although I became conscious of that only at a late stage when my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea wrote to me telling me so. I do not remember agreeing to be a sponsor. I immediately wrote to my hon. Friend saying that I did not remember, but he assured me that I had agreed and, of course, I accepted that. In view of my obvious forgetfulness I can only take comfort from the words of somebody called Elbert Hubbard who said : "A retentive memory may be a good thing, but the ability to forget is the true token of greatness".
On that basis, I am very great indeed.
The Bill is introduced against a background of a decade of disasters--from King's Cross to Purley, from Bradford to Hillsborough. The experience of my hon. Friend the
Column 531
Member for Battersea in the Clapham rail crash will always be in his memory, just as it will always be in the memory of the victims of that crash. I suspect that some people listening to this debate were involved in one way or another in that crash.After each such tragedy the natural reaction is to ask why on earth it happened and whether it could possibly have been prevented. Some accidents are acts of God which cannot be prevented and nothing that we can do will stop them, although we are getting better all the time at preventing disasters such as floods and at minimising the effects of events that were once cataclysmic. However, there is a limit to what humans can do and we should be careful not to be so arrogant as to think that we can abolish all risk or danger, because we cannot. In many cases, neither would we want to, and the Bill makes no attempt or pretence at that.
Having thought about whether a disaster could have been prevented, the next question is whether it should have been prevented. While it is easy to be wise after the event, it is rather harder to be wise beforehand. We are all human and subject to human error, and all mechanisms are subject to mechanical failure. One of the characteristics of being human is that we are able to learn from our mistakes. The comment that we learn history but that we learn nothing from history was clever but untrue. Therefore, we should try to ensure that, when there are lessons to be learnt and actions to be taken, we should learn those lessons and take that action. We shall sometimes fail, because as humans we frequently fail, but we should try to succeed.
We already have a great deal of legislation aimed at ensuring that we learn those lessons. The Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974, for example, imposes quite heavy burdens on employers and on the self-employed, requiring them to ensure that the public are not exposed to safety risks. Yet, despite that legislation, disasters happen. Some disasters appear to be, if not exactly carbon copies of earlier disasters, sufficiently similar as to be ones which with a little foresight could have been avoided. Those are the disasters that not only could have been but should have been prevented. The Bill seeks to make disasters of that type less likely in two ways. First, substantial threats of danger to the public will, in theory, be made known to the public so that they will have the informed knowledge with which they can decide whether to go to places where there are risks. Secondly, the very fact that, in theory, the public will have been informed of those threats and danger will encourage or pressure the owners of premises to act more quickly than they might otherwise have done to reduce the dangers.
I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea is correct in his belief that those two aims will be achieved if the Bill becomes law. I have questions about both those aims, questions on which I shall touch briefly so as to have my reservations allayed by my hon. Friend in due course. As regards the first intended effect of the Bill--improving the information available to people--there seems to me to be a risk that the Bill as drafted will mean that the statutory authorities that have to be involved in the procedure might well decide to take great care not to determine that there is a substantial threat of danger to the
Column 532
health or safety of the public, as any such determination would bring the authority extra work that it might not be able to afford to carry out.Mr. Bowis : I am glad that my hon. Friend has raised that point, but it is a reflection on the integrity of the safety authorities. I do not believe that they would act in that disreputable way. Moreover, if they did and it was shown after a disaster that they had not taken action under the provisions of what I hope will become an Act, they would be open to severe criticism. I believe that they will be as nervous of that as of any extra work which might flow from these provisions.
Mr. Arbuthnot : I am not sure that I would describe that as a disreputable way to act. Statutory authorities would have to make decisions based on the balance of priorities, and the finance avaiable to them would have to be one of those considerations.
Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham) : I do not have a direct answer, but this may help to illuminate the subject. If there were a transport casualty reduction executive, it might say that, as the 8 per cent. of car crashes caused by mechanical faults get all the publicity at coroners' inquests, it should spend its time trying to work on that minority cause rather than dealing with the majority--95 per cent.--cause of accidents, which is human error. If one got defensive health and safety executive type work, one would be deliberately getting the experts to kill more people rather than save more people. That is one of the problems of working on the publicity approach. I have some things to say later on, but that may help my hon. Friends the Members for Battersea (Mr. Bowis) and for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Arbuthnot) by leaving them sitting on the same shelf.
Mr. Arbuthnot : I was trying not to end up on the shelf. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for clearing that up, at least to some extent. I know that my hon. Friend the Member of Battersea has the support of 200 or more local authorities and, with that support, my fears about the reaction to the Bill may be over-cynical. Nevertheless, I raise the point as a possible reaction to the Bill. If my hon. Friend is right to say that warnings would be served in any event, there is then the possibility--in many cases it would be a probability--that if the notices were put up at the entrances of football grounds, nobody would read them. Some people get tired of seeing notices at the entrances to public places. Nobody ever reads the byelaws of parks or those put up at the entrance to amusement parks. It is possible to have a surfeit of safety sermons. It might even be counter-productive to have too much preaching about safety. However, the very fact of notices gives rise to the second operation of the Bill-- putting pressure on the owners.
The provisions in the Bill for a register that would be open to the public are a little heavy handed because, as I understand it, there are registers of enforcement action already available under the Environment and Safety Information Act 1988. I have been told, and I am not surprised, that few people read them. They are hardly the most riveting of reading.
Mr. Bowis : I am sorry to keep interrupting my hon. Friend, but he has courteously explained that he will not be here for my winding-up speech and I should like to answer his points now. The safety notices may not be read
Column 533
by everybody, but they would be noticed by local journalists, so the case would be raised in the right places. The problem with existing regulations requiring registers to be held by local authorities is that nobody knows that they are there. The Bill, if enacted, would trigger the following sequence : the public would be warned, the press would notice, they would investigate at the environmental safety office and the matter would become public.Mr. Arbuthnot : The Bill operates in two ways. First, notices are put up so that people will read them ; secondly, pressure is put on owners because the newspapers will ensure publicity. I am suggesting that the first way will not be so effective as the second. For example, if there is a notice at the entrance to a football match, one of the last things that a man who has paid a day's wages for his ticket and has queued for hours to get to his place will do is to read the notice and decide to turn round and go home because he has seen that there is combustible rubbish under the north stairs. Most British people take the view that accidents happen not to them but to somebody else. Experience tells them that accidents always happen to someone else--until a disaster actually involves them. Nevertheless, if notices had to be displayed at the entrance to football grounds, for example, at least the public would have the knowledge upon which they could make their own informed choice. The decision to take a risk would be theirs, having had the opportunity to avoid it. At present, that choice is not available. There is something to be said, all other things being equal, for providing it.
At present, any Health and Safety Executive warning relating to a public venue is confidential. There may be a good reason for that, but I cannot imagine what it is. It is only after a major fire, or some other disaster, that the public become aware of the risks that they have been running. It is hardly surprising that they then take the view that there must be a better way of avoiding such tragedies. The Bradford City stadium disaster in May 1985 provides a classic example, because in that case warnings had been given by the Health and Safety Executive before the disaster, in which 50 people died. The dangers were known, but they remained confidential.
Some supporters of the Bill make the argument that the public have the right to know, but that phrase somehow makes me uneasy and I think, instead, of a presumption in favour of a well-informed choice. Whether or not the Bill is the right vehicle for creating that presumption and choice is for right hon. and hon. Members individually to decide. But that choice ought to exist.
The second purpose of the Bill, and that upon which my hon. Friend mainly relies, is to shame owners into reacting quickly to notices served on them. Although the average football supporter may not read notices, the local journalist certainly would, and such a notice could be a constant source of embarrassing headlines. There would be no question of warnings being tucked under the carpet and of nothing happening. There is nothing like the fear of bad publicity to spur owners into action.
The Bill is one of many ways of trying to increase safety levels, but one can go too far. Safety should be the first consideration in respect of passenger trains and football grounds--but it should not be the only consideration. Safety should be a hugely important factor, but far from all -consuming. We lead immensely complicated lives, and many aspects of them must be taken into account.
Column 534
In the past, many activities have been undertaken without any thought being given to safety. The King's Cross underground fire is but one example of the possible consequences. It was obvious to all that underground safety needed to be dramatically improved, and since that tragic fire occurred safety has risen to a very high place on London Underground's safety agenda--so high that it is beginning seriously to disrupt the service.My constituents in Wanstead and Woodford--stuck at the end of the Central line--are among those who suffer as a result of that serious disruption. Two days ago, I made a tour of the Central line with London Underground officials and discussed safety requirements, particularly those imposed by the fire brigade. I learned that the fire services must be called and a station evacuated at every report of the smell of smoke. That may sound sensible, but it takes away from station managers discretion, where that could be valuable. Time and again, station managers find that smoke reports have no foundation, but, until the fire brigade has arrived and completed its investigation, the station has to be closed and train services are disrupted. It is time that the fire brigade and London Underground got together to work out a sensible balance of safety as I am not sure that such a balance currently exists.
Mr. Hugo Summerson (Walthamstow) : My hon. Friend is absolutely correct in his remarks, particularly as the smell that some people think is smoke is only the consequence of a train's brakes being applied.
Mr. Arbuthnot : My hon. Friend, whose constituency is also served by the Central line, knows that only too well. The huge investment to be made in the Central line will, I hope, reduce the frequency of such reports, and my constituents will certainly welcome that. It is interesting to contrast the attitudes of British Rail and London Underground in respect of reports on safety precautions. Reports relating to British Rail stations are kept secret, whereas London Underground makes such information available to the public. Perhaps the best aspect of my hon. Friend's Bill is that it would create greater openness in bodies such as British Rail, and help to establish a better atmosphere of open information.
British Rail instituted a safety management system following the Clapham disaster, with the aim of achieving total safety, supported by systematic auditing. British Rail felt that maximum safety could be attained only by sustained effort at all levels of its organisation and through effective monitoring. The railway inspectorate's latest annual safety report on British Rail commented :
"No one should underestimate the practical difficulty of achieving total safety in a large and scattered organisation, where so much depends on individuals."
I do not believe that total safety can be achieved. Yesterday's incident in Whitehall showed us how fragile is our safety and that there is little that we can do to achieve total safety. That is not an argument for not trying to achieve it, but an argument for setting realistic goals.
The Bill has good points and less good points, points with which I agree and several with which I do not. I have strong reservations about whether the Bill will achieve its aims, modest though they are. I am not even sure that if its provisions had been in place at the time of the disasters that have been mentioned it would necessarily have prevented them. The Bill places some burdens on industry,
Column 535
and some on the statutory authorities to which it refers. However, at least my hon. Friend is having a stab at the problem and for that he should be congratulated.10.58 am
Mr. Simon Hughes : (Southwark and Bermondsey) : I anticipate that my speech will not be far gone before this debate is interrupted for the private notice question, so I will deal with the preliminaries now, and make my substantive points afterwards.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : The hon. Gentleman means that he will ramble on later.
Mr. Hughes : No, I shall not ramble on.
I am grateful for the invitation to serve as one of the Bill's supporters. Unlike the hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Arbuthnot), I remember being asked, and assented willingly. I do not make any deductions in terms of memory, other than that.
I am indebted to the hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. Bowis) for taking the opportunity of gaining a place in the ballot to debate a subject which we are all at times made aware--if we are not aware already--is one of massive significance to large numbers of people. I also pay tribute to the community rights project which has done the work. That organisation is a constituent of mine, as it has always been since 1983, and has been assiduous throughout various staff changes to ensure that the House is confronted with the opportunities and given the support to bring forward legislation like this Bill.
My final tribute is to the British Safety Council, which, as the hon. Member for Battersea said, is always there trying to encourage good practice and the opportunities for the House to do its bit. I am delighted that at last we are getting an opportunity to--
It being Eleven o'clock, Mr. Speaker-- interrupted the proceedings pursuant to Standing Order No. 11 (Friday sittings).
Column 536
Sleeping Rough (London)
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) (by private notice) : To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what emergency action can be taken to deal with people sleeping rough on the streets of London during the inclement weather.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tim Yeo) : Five hundred extra bed places have been made available inemergency shelters which were operating last night. Those will remain open while the very cold weather continues, and 200 of the places, at the Paddington Green and Soho Square hospitals, will remain open until the beginning of March. These shelters are being funded by the Department of the Environment and the Department of Health, but I should like to pay tribute to local authorities and voluntary bodies which have responded very quickly to the cold weather by organising these shelters.
Mr. Campbell-Savours : I thank you for granting a private notice question on this important matter, Mr. Speaker.
Last night, along with many of my colleagues from the north of England and Scotland, I found myself snowbound at Euston. While returning to the House, we witnessed some of the most appalling sights imaginable--ill-clad people shuffling through the streets with nowhere to go, and people sleeping rough in indescribable squalor, caked in snow, lying on pavements and in shop doorways.
I understand that people in London this morning have been expressing the deepest concern over what has happened. I understand that deaths and innumerable cases of hypothermia have been reported in the capital. Something has to be done--not next week, not tomorrow, but today--now. I am afraid that 500 places are simply not enough. We are dealing with thousands of people. We need action now. The bad weather has been forecast for as long as a week. Not one of the thousands of people whom it is estimated are sleeping rough should be left to sleep on the streets of the capital tonight. Will the Minister announce a state of housing emergency in London, with the requisitioning of a number of major public properties? Will he get the police to set up an emergency rough sleepers' search programme in the capital and instruct them, where possible, to collect those people in need and ferry them to locations such as school premises, empty Government buildings, church halls where available and whatever public buildings can be found to take these people off the streets? Can he ensure that hot food and bedding are made available? Most of all, people need a roof over their heads tonight. We are confronted with a real crisis in the capital today. Something must be done, and it must be done now.
Mr. Yeo : I entirely share the hon. Gentleman's concern about the fact that, during the past few weeks, people have been sleeping rough in central London. As it happens, we have asked the voluntary organisations, which are in the front line of contacting rough sleepers in the streets, to conduct a careful count for us of those people sleeping rough at present. There are a number of organisations which specialise in different parts of central London. The
Column 537
count, which was conducted towards the end of last month, showed that just over 1,000 people were sleeping rough at that time. The voluntary organisations, which have a great deal of expertise in this field--I am glad that we have Mr. Nick Hardwick on secondment to my Department, since he has considerable experience in this field--have agreed with us that the programme that we have put in place is sufficient to meet the needs as they see them on the ground.Our aim is to ensure that there is no need for anyone at all to sleep rough in central London during this very cold weather. There is no need for anyone to go without food, because it is available, both in the night shelters and day centres, whose location is well known to outreach workers for the voluntary organisations and the police in central London--who have also been very co-operative. I can assure the House that my Department is reviewing the situation not just every day, but every hour, and if we find that it is necessary to make additional places available, we shall do so. Additional places may be made available even before this evening.
Mr. Hugo Summerson (Walthamstow) : While my hon. Friend's response is very welcome, will he ensure that all steps are taken to publicise the availability of these beds? Will he continue to keep the matter under review and does he agree that our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's statement yesterday on cold weather payments is very welcome and shows that the Government are prepared to take action where necessary?
Mr. Yeo : My hon. Friend is quite right about the very rapid response announced by the Prime Minister on the availability of cold weather payments. As regards publicising the additional places that we have made available in the past few days--we have increased the number of places by 250 since the beginning of this week--we are confident that the most effective way to do so, in a manner which will reach potential rough sleepers who will need the places, is through the voluntary organisations' outreach workers and through the police.
Steps have been taken to ensure that, where additional places have been made available, as they will be from 9 o'clock tonight, people likely to come into contact with potential rough sleepers are aware of the location. Indeed, if someone who is on the point of sleeping rough on a very cold night arrives at one of the shelters where places are fully occupied, we are trying to make arrangements for them to be tranported to another shelter where space is available.
Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey) : Of course what the Minister has said is welcome, but it does not go far enough. When I was dropping off my colleague, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) at Hyde Park underground station at 6 o'clock this morning, people were sleeping there. People are liable to be sleeping rough in every tube station, railway station and road in central London.
Would it be a good idea, first, to ensure that the Red Cross and the St. John Ambulance--whose workers are indentifiably people who care--are asked to go out tonight in uniform, supported by the outreach workers, who may be unknown and therefore may arouse more suspicion in those sleeping rough, as might the police? As angels of mercy, they would identify the people who are sleeping on
Column 538
the streets and say to them, "Come with us and we'll take you somewhere safe." They could be backed up by the ambulance service. Secondly, could a phone number be provided which is commonly available in the capital, which could be used either by anyone in need or by anyone who indentifies someone else who is in need? It would not merely be for those sleeping rough but for the elderly and the sick, who may be vulnerable because their homes are not sufficiently heated.Mr. Yeo : The hon. Gentleman's last point goes rather wider than the original question, but I shall draw that matter to the attention of my colleagues.
As regards the people that the hon. Member and his colleague may have seen last night, we are advised that spaces were available in the increased places that we have made available this week, and were not taken up. If we are not communicating the message sufficiently well to people who are still sleeping rough I shall consider his suggestions about other voluntary organisations and find out whether there are any other ways in which we can publicise the existence of places. I reiterate that our aim is to ensure that no one needs to sleep rough. Perhaps, although we are making extra capacity available, we need to review how that message is being communicated to people on the streets.
Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North) : Is my hon. Friend aware that I have frequently gone out on the Salvation Army soup run to those people who sleep rough, and that the Salvation Army should be praised more than any other organisation in our nation for the wonderful work it does? Is my hon. Friend aware that we need to persuade some rough sleepers who have no confidence in the authorities to come into shelter and that we must make sure that that shelter is provided? The Salvation Army has the confidence of those people, who will willingly talk to Salvation Army officers and confide their needs. Will my hon. Friend therefore do everything he can to back that organisation and ensure that it has the extra support that it will probably need to do its wonderful work?
Mr. Yeo : I gladly join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the Salvation Army's work, which is of immense value. I also had an opportunity of touring the streets before Christmas, in an entirely unpublicised study of the problem on the ground. I was impressed that the voluntary organisations concerned not only commanded the confidence of many of the people who were sleeping rough but had a detailed knowledge of the problem. They seemed to know the background of many individuals concerned. We see the interface where the voluntary organisations act, and we are providing resources. It is clear that the immediate problem has nothing to do with financial resources ; it is purely a matter of making sure that we have the physical capacity, that we are able to staff the extra places that are being made available and that the people concerned who might want to use them are aware of them. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that the role of the voluntary organisations and their workers is critical in that function.
Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South) : The Minister mentions voluntary organisations and says that it is not a matter of financial resources. Is he aware that the various financial restrictions that the Government have placed on
Column 539
London borough councils, including poll tax capping and the restriction of expenditure, have forced some of them unwillingly to cut the grants to some of the very organisations that are trying to address the problem? Will he now give an assurance that any expenditure by such affected councils will be made, and will be made legally, by them without risk of prosecution and going against the restrictive and anti-social legislation that he and his hon. Friends have imposed on the people of London?Mr. Yeo : I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman should demonstrate such complete ignorance of the subject. This matter has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the excessive community charge that is levied in many parts of London. Although I recognise that many local authorities have been very helpful in the past few days, organisations that are in the front line of dealing with rough sleepers are not under-resourced in terms of meeting the needs of the next few days of extremely cold weather.
To the extent that people were still on the streets last night, it is, as far as I can tell, the result of those people not being aware of the additional spaces that we have made available and resourced.
Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East) : May I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for what he and the Government are doing in this matter? As he rightly says, it involves a relatively small number of people, which means that it can be solved with determined and co-ordinated action. Once one has the proper estimate of the figures, which should not take too long, bearing in mind the fact that we anticipate, unfortunately, that the cold weather will last for some time, surely the Government can bridge the gap. Only the Government have the strength and financial resources to bridge the gap between voluntary bodies and their own determination.
Will my hon. Friend seriously discuss with his colleagues in the Government bringing in the Army, the Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve and the police, who have installations and buildings that could help to meet the gap? It is unacceptable in our prosperous society that even one person should be on the streets in these conditions. Has my hon. Friend any estimate--I know that it is difficult to say--of people who are suffering from mental disabilities? The full horror of that problem will come home to all hon. Members.
Mr. Yeo : My hon. Friend is entirely right. The problem is relatively small in terms of numbers and therefore can be solved. I believe that the programme that we have in hand will not only solve the immediate difficulty of this cold weather, but, over the next few months, through the extra hostels, medium-term hostels and the move-on accommodation that we are making available during 1991 will be sufficient to ensure that none of the people who are currently sleeping rough need still to be doing so, even in crisis shelters, by the end of this year.
On the possible role of the Army and the TAVR, at the moment the voluntary organisations and volunteers are best placed to meet the immediate need in terms of sweeping up people off the street. They know where they are most likely to be found. As has been said, they are more likely to command the confidence of people who
Column 540
might be deterred from making contact with someone who appeared to be an authority figure. Nevertheless, we shall consider the suggestion.As I have said, financial resources are no part of the problem. It is a matter of finding physical accommodation, and the volunteers and staff to operate it, and making sure that the people who might want to use it are aware of it.
Several Hon. Members rose --
Mr. Speaker : Order. I remind hon. Members that the private notice question of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) concerned people sleeping rough in London. I have no doubt that many of them may have come from Scotland, Wales and elsewhere, but questions should be directed to London, please.
Mrs. Audrey Wise (Preston) : Does the Minister accept that we are astounded by his statement that voluntary organisations are not under- resourced, but are actually satisfied with the Government's actions on this issue? It does not tally with our messages from voluntary organisations. Will he further accept that the problem in London is exacerbated by physical and financial under-resourcing in the regions, which then has a direct effect on the London situation? Will he assure us that local authorities in London and wherever else necessary are given all encouragement--indeed, direction if they are reluctant--and financial recompense for any actions that they take in this emergency?
Mr. Yeo : I can only reiterate that, following the meetings that my hon. Friend the Minister of State and I have had with the main voluntary organisations dealing with the problem--the ones that are experienced in meeting the needs of people on the streets--for the purpose of actually providing crisis accommodation in this period of extreme weather, they are not under-resourced. Such organisations may have wider aims and longer-term ambitions for which they would like additional resources, but, for the purpose of actually providing accommodation tonight and for as long as the period of extremely cold weather lasts, I do not believe that the organisations have a financial problem.
I forgot, in answer to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes), to respond to his point about how many of the rough sleepers may have a history of mental illness. When the voluntary organisations conducted their recent survey, they tried to establish the different reasons why different groups of people on the streets actually got there. It is quite true that a number of people who are sleeping rough or who have been sleeping rough have such a history and that is something about which we shall talk to our colleagues at the Department of Health and the Department of Social Security.
Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham) : Does my hon. Friend accept that, whatever the reason, people are roofless in London and they should not be at this time? The House gives a great welcome to my hon. Friend's announcement today and to the announcements that have been made during the past few weeks about arranging for emergency shelters. Will my hon. Friend pick up the point that was made by the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) and encourage local newspapers and local radio to give out the telephone numbers
Column 541
of social services departments, so that those who are not presently roofless but who are in great need can be referred to those who can give help?Will my hon. Friend recognise that we are concerned not only about the established contacts of charitable organisations that night after night pay attention to the needs of roofless people on the streets, but about people from overseas and others who come to London for the first time, who are not yet in established places where the voluntary services can make contact with them? It is worth doing extra work to sweep those people into a system in which they can have a roof and warm food during this exceptionally cold period.
Mr. Yeo : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks on the initiatives that my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning and I have taken in the past few weeks. We shall do all we can to encourage the local press and radio stations to give as much publicity as possible not only to the location of direct access accommodation but, equally important, to the statutory and voluntary organisations that can counsel people who have not reached the point where they face the prospect of sleeping rough. My hon. Friend made the important point that a number of rough sleepers and potential rough sleepers may have recently arrived in London from abroad. There are advice centres that are specially able to counsel people in that position, but I shall follow up the point and see what else we can do.
Mr. Jimmy Wray (Glasgow, Provan) : Does the Minister agree that Scotland will need some extra cash during this crisis weather--
Mr. Speaker : Order. I remind the hon. Member of what I said a moment ago.
Mr. Wray : Irrespective of where they are, the Government have had 11 years to clear up the problem, and there should not be one person lying out in the street. Does he agree that the social fund has created dire poverty? There were record refusals in October and November--60 per cent. in loans, 50 per cent. in grants and 10 per cent. in crisis loans. Will he speak to the Minister responsible to obtain extra resources?
Mr. Yeo : That question did not bear even a tenuous relationship to the subject that we have been discussing for the past 20 minutes. However, as the hon. Gentleman has ranged more widely, I am glad to say that in England, London and Scotland the quality and quantity of the nation's housing stock has never been so good.
Mrs. Llin Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme) : Will the Minister listen to his colleagues on the all-party parliamentary group on housing, of which I am chairman? Will he listen to the voluntary organisations about their inability to cope and their lack of funding? Is he aware that the Salvation Army is facing a £7 million deficit this year, that a housing trust has lost five schemes this year, that Centrepoint says that it is in real danger of running into difficulty because it has too many responsibilities, and that Stonham housing association will carry a large deficit this year amounting to two thirds of its funding? When will he listen to his colleagues and to the voluntary organisations, which cannot be expected to cope with these crises?
Mr. Yeo : It is precisely because we do not expect the voluntary organisations to cope on their own that we are
Column 542
resourcing through my Department and the Department of Health this rapid and flexible response, which we have demonstrated this week, to meet the needs of rough sleepers in cold weather. I recall running quite a large voluntary organisation before I came to this place. My then colleagues in the voluntary sector and I were skilful in putting across a constant image of tremendous financial crisis.The voluntary organisations have wide-ranging aspirations, which I do not denigrate, but it is not for the Government to meet all those needs. The question is on the problem of people sleeping rough in extreme weather in the past two or three nights and possibly over the weekend. I am confident that, if there are any constraints on our ability to respond to this distressing situation, they are imposed by the difficulty of finding accommodation, whether it be in disused hospitals or schools, and have nothing to do with money.
Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East) : The severity of the current weather has been forecast for up to a week. To what extent was machinery put in place in preparation for that? Although one must concede that this is primarily a metropolitan problem, with your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I must say that people are sleeping rough in all the major cities of this country. To what extent will analogous provision be available through local government and voluntary agencies in those other major cities?
Mr. Yeo : My Department's ability to respond to the forecasts of cold weather has been demonstrated by the fact that last weekend we made available 250 additional places, on top of the existing 2,100 direct access places in London. Since last weekend, as we have observed the weather getting colder and have read the forecasts, we have made available a further 250 places, making the total of 500 to which I originally referred.
The possibility is that, following the check that we are making this morning on occupancy levels last night, we shall make additional spaces available tonight. Although the question is confined to London, the problem in central London is different from that in other cities, because people are coming into London from other parts of the country. The Department is playing a co-ordinating role, but in other cities it is a matter for the relevant housing authority to respond to.
Ms. Dawn Primarolo (Bristol, South) : I refer the Minister to column 926 on 30 January, where the Minister for Housing and Planning said that the Department's estimate of homeless people in London alone was between 2,000 to 3,000 people. That shows how Government policy has failed, particularly with direct access hostels, for which the Government are offering little help.
How do the Government intend to deal with the current scale of the crisis, because 500 places is not sufficient? If the Government expect voluntary groups to take the major pressure of this crisis, what resources will be made available to them and what proposals will the Government bring before Parliament to ensure that homelessness is dealt with and that we recognise that there is a crisis not just during the cold weather but all the time?
Mr. Yeo : The hon. Lady refers to the estimate that my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning quoted in response to a parliamentary question. It was because we felt that our figures were out of date that we asked--and
Column 543
we received full co-operation from them--the voluntary organisations most experienced at dealing with rough sleepers in London to carry out a more recent count. The estimate that they produced came to 1, 046. We may have to give or take a few here and there, but that count was conducted by people who have been working in the front line of the problem for some considerable time. We shall therefore use that figure to replace the earlier and out-of-date estimate quoted in the parliamentary answer.If the hon. Lady had paid any attention to debates and Question Times when this problem has been discussed in the past two months, she would know full well that the 500 places to which I referred have been an emergency response to an emergency situation. We have a bigger and far wider-ranging programme to deal with the problem. This year, we have 500 longer-term hostel places coming on stream, of which 250 will be available within a month. We have 800 places in move-on accommodation and in shared and self- contained flats and houses, which will come on stream this year, of which 500 will be available by the end of next month. We are spending £15 million in the current financial year and £81 million more over the next two years to deal with the problem.
Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) : I share the concern and anger felt by my hon. Friends. I am amazed by the Minister's complacency. His estimate of the number of homeless people sleeping rough in central London does not square with the parliamentary answer that was given by the Minister for Housing and Planning. On 30 January 1991, he said :
"My Department estimates that there are about 2,000 to 3,000 people sleeping out in central London, and up to 2,000 in other cities."--[ Official Report, 30 January 1991 ; Vol. 184, c. 926.]
Why is there an enormous gap in the statistics between the estimate of his hon. Friend, the Department's estimate and the estimate that the Minister has given today?
The daunting problem of London's homeless has been raised by my colleagues on many occasions. The Government cannot shelter behind their late and puny action. This is a crisis of the Government's own making. What action are they going to take to tackle the root causes? We heard no answers from the Minister today. The root causes include the Government's failed community care policy, which means that people leave long-stay hospitals for the streets. They also include the economic failures, which mean that unemployed young people are driven away from their homes to search for work in London. Those unemployed young people come from Scotland, Wales, the north-east and all other parts of Britain. They include the Government's social security policy, which denies 16 and 17-year-olds money to support themselves. They include also the Government's housing policy, which denies young people and poor people affordable housing. The Minister has failed to address those matters today.
The main problem facing us today and over the next few days is the 2,000 to 3,000 people who are sleeping out in London in this bitterly cold weather. What is going to happen to them tonight, tomorrow night and the night after that? The fact that thousands of old people, young people and mentally ill people are forced to sleep rough is a national scandal which surely even this heartless
| Next Section
| Home Page |