House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Feb 1991

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Chris Patten) : I have appointed 50 magistrates since my appointment as Chancellor of the Duchy.

Mr. Wilshire : Does my right hon. Friend share my concern about the amount of time that they and all other magistrates have to spend dealing with councillors who have refused to pay their community charge, while still claiming their allowances? Will he confirm that that applies to more than 1,000 councillors and does he agree that such action shows the true face of Labour politics today?

Mr. Patten : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is estimated that 1,000 Labour councillors are not paying their community charge, although their concern about financial matters does not seem to extend to not claiming their council allowances. They all seem to be pretty good candidates for the supper club.

Ribble Valley

30. Mr. Pike : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he proposes to make an official visit to Ribble Valley when he next visits the county of Lancashire.

Mr. Chris Patten : My plans to visit the Ribble Valley are at present under review.

Mr. Pike : I am sure that they are. The Chancellor may find himself there in the not too distant future and I assure him that he will encounter widespread concern throughout the constituency about the present level of interest rates. That concern is felt by mortgage payers, industrialists and farmers, all of whom are being squeezed unbearably as a result of current Government policy. Will the right hon. Gentleman assure them that something will be done to bring down interest rates as early as possible?

Mr. Patten : Should I be required in the Ribble Valley in the reasonably near future, what I will find is, first, an excellent Conservative candidate ; secondly, widespread concern about the spending of Lancashire county council ;

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and thirdly, I am sure, a widespread understanding of the importance of getting on top of inflation, however difficult that may be in the short term.

Mr. Donald Thompson : Does my right hon. Friend realise that I recently visited Ribble Valley and found the position to be just as he described it? The people there are looking forward to my right hon. Friend's visit and he will be cheered through the valleys.

Mr. Patten : I am always delighted to follow in my hon. Friend's footsteps, larger than mine though they may be.

Dr. Cunningham : Is not it typical of the Conservative party that the Tory candidate for Ribble Valley came third in the Pontypridd by- election, although he is Welsh?

When the Chancellor visits the north-west, what will he have to say to the 19,000 people who have lost their jobs in the past six months in that region as a result of the failures and mismanagement of the economy for which the present Government are responsible? In particular, what will he have to say to the 3,000 workers at British Aerospace in Preston who face redundancy and a bleak future because of the Government's industrial and economic failures?

Mr. Patten : I seem to recall that our candidate for Ribble Valley did rather better than the Opposition's candidate at his last outing with the electorate in the Neath by-election. I am sure that the work force and management at British Aerospace know that they have a much better future under a Conservative Government than they ever would have under a Labour Government, given, not least, the Labour party's plans for defence spending. I shall also be able to point to the large number of jobs and small businesses created in the north-west under this Government during the last few years, difficult though present circumstances may be.

Mr. Hind : When my right hon. Friend visits Ribble Valley, will he draw it to the attention of the people that their local education authority, Labour-run Lancashire county council, is holding back £150 million of revenue money from schools, many of which are locally managed, to the detriment of the education service? Will he also tell the people of Ribble Valley that it is time that Lancashire county council dismantled its central authority so that schools can be improved and the money put where it is needed--in the classroom?

Mr. Patten : I much sympathise with my hon. Friend's remarks. As I recall it, Lancashire county council's spending has increased by over 20 per cent. this year. Heaven alone knows where all that money is going.

Official Duties

31. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how much time he has spent on official duties since his appointment.

Mr. Chris Patten : Up to a quarter of my time is spent carrying out my duties as Chancellor of the Duchy.

Mr. Skinner : Does the Chancellor agree that the official duties get in the way of his other duties as chairman of the Tory party? Is it true that he has told the civil servants for that tiny little job he has got that in this election year they must clear the decks for April, May and June? Is it also

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correct that he has told them to leave things open for a possible date in October and that his official duties will be in inverse proportion to the way in which the Tory Government are able to fiddle interest rates and the other economic indicators?

Mr. Patten : I should like to be the first and perhaps the only Member to wish the hon. Gentleman a happy birthday--although not, I hope he will understand, many happy returns.

I am a very modest fellow, but I hope that, as Chancellor of the Duchy, I make some small contribution to the continuing success of the Government and that I shall continue to do so for many months and years ahead. As for the general election, there are more than 70 Thursdays between now and the time at which we shall have to go to the country. Whichever of those Thursdays is chosen for the next general election, I am sure that we shall win it.

Mr. Mans : During his official duties, will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity to meet the Labour leader of Lancashire county council and ask her why she leaked to the press, before it was published in full detail, a report about Blackpool's beaches which has caused great worry to the tourist trade and to the economy of Blackpool generally?

Mr. Patten : A meeting with the Labour leader of Lancashire county council is not my first ambition in life, but were I to meet her I should draw her attention to the £3 billion which will be invested over the next few years under this Government in cleaning up our beaches and bathing waters. The only threat to that continuing programme would be the election of a Labour Government dedicated to the renationalisation of the water industry.

Office Costs

32. Mr. Corbyn : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what is the annual cost of his office.

Mr. Chris Patten : In the financial year 1990-91, my office has a budget of £78,388.00.

Mr. Corbyn : Will the Chancellor draw to the attention of his officials the answer that he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)--that he spends about a quarter of his time on his official duties and that the rest of it is a sinecure on behalf of the Tory party? In that respect, I should have thought that he would be repaying a considerable amount of money to the civil service, such as three quarters of his travel expenses, and office costs which are spent solely on Conservative party duties. Can we be assured that his appointment as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is not a backhanded way of subsidising the Tory party? His job has nothing to do with the duchy, but is solely to administer the Tory party.

Mr. Patten : Ours is a humble little enterprise and it is very cost effective. It is certainly no sinecure, any more than it was when Labour Ministers discharged such responsibilities in the past.

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Official Visits

33. Mr. Burns : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many official visits he has made as Chancellor of the Duchy.

Mr. Chris Patten : Four, Sir.

Mr. Burns : Does my right hon. Friend agree that, notwithstanding the official visits that he has already made to the duchy, in the coming weeks he will visit that part of the duchy in the Ribble Valley? When he visits Ribble Valley, will he explain fairly and squarely to the tenants whom he meets the cost of a future Labour Government and the fact that no one in this country could ever afford that cost?

Mr. Patten : I shall certainly attempt to discharge that undertaking if I am able to visit Ribble Valley in the next few weeks--it may be possible. I am sure that all hon. Members, including Labour Front-Bench Members, will want to try to explain to the electorate in the next few months and years precisely how the promises that were made by the shadow Chancellor--for example, that the Labour party will not increase spending or taxes--equate with everything that is said by every other shadow spokesman.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Parliament Square Traffic

38. Mr. Michael : To ask the Lord President of the Council what assessment he has made of the effect of schemes to speed traffic past the House to and from Parliament square on the case for consequent measures to offer hon. Members an opportunity of safely crossing the road on the way from outlying offices to the House.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor) : The effectiveness of the traffic control measures recently installed in and around Parliament square is still being assessed. Preliminary conclusions indicate, however, significant improvements in the flow of traffic and the safe control of pedestrians. I am advised that the existing crossings are considered to provide the best arrangements for Members crossing to the House from outlying buildings.

Mr. Michael : I suggest to the Leader of the House that the latter part of his brief was written by somebody who has not had to run the gamut of the speeded-up traffic. I assure him that the likelihood of by- elections, mainly for the Conservative Benches, is increased by those traffic measures, because the improvement in traffic is generally for the benefit of the general public and does not appear to be to the general benefit of hon. Members. No reference is made to the importance for all hon. Members who have to cross the road for the benefit of television appearances. It is not only those of us who have offices on the other side who have an interest in this. Will he promise to keep the matter under review and consider measures that will protect hon. Members going about their business?

Mr. MacGregor : It is no small thing that the changes have been to the benefit of the general public in terms of safety and the free flow of traffic. We must take that into

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account. As to the problems for hon. Members, the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee has requested the provision of traffic refuge islands. The matter is under active consideration by the traffic authorities and I understand that a report on their conclusions is expected in the near future.

GP Service

39. Mr. Butler : To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he has undertaken any assessment of the demand among hon. Members for a general practitioner service to be provided in the Palace of Westminster ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. MacGregor : On the basis of professional medical advice, successive Services Committees have accepted that it would be inappropriate to establish a general practitioner service in the House. For any medical matter, apart from an emergency, for which special procedures exist, hon. Members are expected to consult their own doctors.

Mr. Butler : I note that my right hon. Friend has not consulted hon. Members on this matter, but, in assessing demand for such a service, will he remember that many hon. Members are not registered with general practitioners in London and that the peculiar hours that we work would often preclude us from attending surgery?

Mr. MacGregor : As for assessing Members' views, the Services Committee accepted advice that a general practitioner service is not appropriate for the House, but of course it is always open to Members of Parliament to make their views known to the Services Committee. On my hon. Friend's second point, as he knows, facilities are available in the House and provisions exist to ensure that in an emergency Members are conveyed without delay to a hospital in the immediate vicinity.

Palace of Westminster (Access)

41. Mr. Corbyn : To ask the Lord President of the Council what action he is taking to ensure that the Palace of Westminster becomes more accessible to the public.

Mr. MacGregor : I can only add to what I have said recently on this subject that I expect that the studies on access for the disabled to which I referred on 31 January will be considered by the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee before Easter.

Mr. Corbyn : I am pleased that they will be studied before Easter. But why has it taken so long even to produce a report on the lack of access to this building for people with disabilities? It is a disgrace that this building, where the laws are set for the rest of the country, including laws on disabled access, does not provide access for the disabled. Will the right hon. Gentleman make it his personal priority to ensure that before the summer, when many tourists and others will visit the building, we have full disabled access to every floor of the House so that people in wheelchairs do not go through the humiliation of being brought in via the back stairs, so to speak, and taken up in the service lift to attend meetings on the upper floors? It is a disgrace and I hope that the Leader of the House will make sure that it is put right quickly.

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Mr. MacGregor : A number of steps have been taken over the years to improve access for the disabled to the House. I share the view that we should do everything possible to improve on what we already have. The Parliamentary Works Officer is actively studying suggestions, some of which were made just before Christmas, to improve access to various parts of the House. I am keen that the report should be ready and should be considered by the Accommodation and Administration Sub- Committee as quickly as possible. That is why I asked that the deadline be set before Easter.

Mr. Andrew MacKay : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that in the light of the terrorist attack on Downing street last week, public access to the Palace of Westminster will not be reduced in any way? Does he agree that if that were done as a security measure we should be playing straight into the hands of the terrorists?

Mr. MacGregor : I agree entirely with my hon. Friend that it is extremely important for parliamentary democracy that access to the House continues to be available to the general public. However, he will agree that in the current circumstances it is right to take all appropriate security measues in the light of security advice. That is why several steps have been taken recently to improve security.

Dr. Cunningham : The majority of Members--indeed, I hope, the whole House--recognise the urgent need to review security. The measures taken certainly have my support and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends.

To revert to the original question of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn), the right hon. Gentleman said that a number of steps have been taken. It is the number of steps which is the problem. If the House really intends to resolve the problem of access for disabled people, it should show the same urgency in dealing with that problem as it has shown on security.

Mr. MacGregor : The hon. Gentleman will agree that there is nothing between us on the issue. I have been grateful for his support on security matters. Sometimes reports such as the one on the disabled take rather longer than any of us would wish. I have tried to expedite the report because I understand the concerns.

The Gulf

42. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps towards the establishment of a Select Committee to consider the ecological disaster in the Gulf.

Mr. MacGregor : I have no plans to do so.

Mr. Dalyell : Should not an emergency Select Committee be set up to consider the entreaties of the Bahrainis, who are faced with the oil slick, and to consider the mangrove swamps and sea grasses which are the nurturing grounds for fin fish and shrimps? Does not the Leader of the House consider it odd that, instead of considering Qaruh, Ummal Maradin and the coral islands which are the nurseries for the larvae that are so vital to life in the Gulf, the House will spend six hours discussing the Natural Heritage (Scotland) Bill, a controversial measure which is not nearly so urgent as the ecological catastrophe in the Gulf?

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Mr. MacGregor : I should have thought that there would be widespread support for the measure that we are to debate this afternoon. It would be entirely appropriate.

The hon. Gentleman knows that the United Kingdom Government responded quickly to requests for assistance in environmental and pollution control in the Gulf. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is taking steps to assess what more the public, private and voluntary sectors can do, when it is safe to do so. However, the matter is not an appropriate subject for a special Select Committee. If it wished, the appropriate departmental Select Committee could hold an inquiry in due course.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : As the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has pointed out on several occasions, is not the underlying problem that Saddam Hussein has been not just an ecological threat to the Gulf, but a chemical and biological threat to many of his neighbours? He has already invaded two other countries and poisoned many of his own people. We would be far better off if he could be put into balk. Then we could get on with discussing the natural heritage in Scotland without worrying about his impact on the Gulf and the world in general.

Mr. MacGregor : I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. He is right to make it clear exactly where the criticism should lie.

LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL

Privy Councillors

43. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Lord President of the Council how many Opposition Members have been appointed to the Privy Council in the last 10 years ; and what proportion this is of total new Privy Councillors.

Mr. MacGregor : In the past 10 years three leaders of Opposition parties--the right hon. Members for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) and for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock) in 1983 and the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) in 1989--have been made members of the Privy Council. This represents 3.5 per cent. of the number of hon. Members of the House so appointed during that period and 2 per cent. of the total number of new Privy Councillors.

Mr. Cohen : I expect that the Lord President will not agree that this feudal, undemocratic body of Privy Councillors should be abolished. Does not the proportion to which he referred show that it is even less democratic and less fair than the House of Lords, which is saying something? Does he agree that we will need a Labour Government if we are to redress the balance?

Mr. MacGregor : If the hon. Gentleman looks at the party composition of Privy Councillors in the House of Commons and at those appointed in recent years, he will see that over the years, not just recently, there has been, inevitably, a heavy preponderance of appointments from the party in government. The figures for the past 10 or 11 years reflect the fact that, fortunately for this country, we have had a Conservative Government. I hope that that will continue.

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HOUSE OF COMMONS

Chamber Lighting

44. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the current lighting in the Chamber of the House.

Mr. MacGregor : Following the agreement of both the Select Committee on Broadcasting and the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee, a prototype of the proposed permanent chandeliers is to be installed at Easter. Subject then to early approval of the design and the availability of funds, the plan is to replace the temporary chandeliers during the summer recess.

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Mr. Greenway : Does my right hon. Friend accept that we shall all be glad to see an end to this lighting, including the heat that comes from the lights? Will he arrange for Members to be consulted on the future programme of lighting in the House?

Mr. MacGregor : When my hon. Friend sees the prototype, he will agree that it is a considerable advance on what we have now and an attractive design. We hope that it will be available for all Members of the House to look at and that it will be possible for them to comment on the design before the chandeliers are installed and decisions taken on them.

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