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House of Commons
Friday 15 February 1991
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Orders of the Day
Badgers Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
9.34 am
Mr. Michael Colvin (Romsey and Waterside) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On the Order Paper for today there are two Bills relating to badgers--the Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) and another Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor). I trust that, when hon. Members discuss the measure immediately before us, the Chair will permit straying into the other Bill, because comparisons between the two Bills will obviously be the key to what is said.
Mr. Speaker : The hon. Gentleman knows that we must deal with the Bill before us. It is not for me to pontificate on what Members may or may not say, but they must stick to what is in the Bill. I understand that the hon. Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor), whose Bill appears lower down the Order Paper today, may also want to participate in this debate, but I have no idea what he will say.
Mr. Colvin : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
On a second point of order, may I say that the Bill that we are about to debate could have been called the Badgers (Amendment) Bill, because to a great extent it amends the Badgers Act 1973. However, I have just been to the Vote Office and I am afraid that that Act is not available. That may be due to my laziness ; I should have ordered it last week so that it could have been brought from the store. However, the same problem confronted us during debates in the last Session on the Protection of Badger Setts Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks)--
Mr. Speaker : Order. That is all as may be, but today we are dealing with the Badgers Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes).
Mr. Peter Hardy (Wentworth) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin) seriously wants to look at the Badgers Act 1973, for which I was responsible, may I point out that there are copies of it in the Lobbies.
Mr. Speaker : Let us get on with it.
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9.36 amMr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
It is my pleasure and privilege to move the Second Reading of the Badgers Bill. Its sponsors are colleagues from the three principal political parties, and Plaid Cymru has also promised me its wholehearted support.
There is one sad mistake in the list of the Bill's sponsors. I refer to my late hon. Friend and colleague, Mr. Donald Coleman. The Bill had gone to the printers before he so tragically passed away. A bit of secret history is that Donald Coleman would dearly have loved to have introduced a measure similar to my Bill. He was pleased when I invited him to be a sponsor and I am sure that he is with us in spirit today supporting this measure.
When I was telephoned and told that I was fifth on the list for private Member's Bills, my immediate response was to say that I wanted to introduce a Bill to protect badgers, first, because I have an affection for these lovely creatures and, secondly, I was concerned about the way in which a most reasonable Bill presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) had been talked out.
Following my decision, I pay tribute to the organisations that have lent me their support, expertise and invaluable assistance. I refer to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the League Against Cruel Sports, the Royal Society for Nature Conservation, the National Federation of Badger Groups and the World Wide Fund for Nature, led by his Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh. I also thank the caring people all over Britain who have sent me letters of support, sometimes accompanied by petitions in favour of the Bill. I hope and trust that they will not be disappointed.
Mr. David Nicholson (Taunton) : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for mentioning the organisations that have helped him to prepare the Bill. I assume that he consulted them closely. He will recall that last year my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh), as a Back-Bench Member, put through the House the Rights of Way Act 1990 which brought together the most amazing collection of environmental, farming and landowning groups. It was a remarkable success for which my hon. Friend has been rightly rewarded by a place in the Government. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not aspire to such a reward. Can he tell the House what other groups he consulted, and will he address the genuine concerns expressed by the National Farmers Union about the difficulties some of his proposals might cause for farmers?
Mr. Hughes : I consulted and spent a good deal of time with a whole host of organisations before presenting the Bill. I can give the hon. Gentleman that clear and specific assurance.
The badger has been protected by law since 1973, but despite strengthening amendments to the Badgers Act 1973 in 1981 and 1985, the cruel persecution of badgers persists. My hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) steered a private Member's Bill through Parliament in 1985 to make it more difficult for diggers to escape conviction. He recently conducted a survey of police authorities to find out whether the 1985 amendment has been effective and he discovered that, although initially the conviction rate rose dramatically, it has since dropped
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to a mere 55 per cent. That is a lower rate of conviction than that achieved before the 1985 attempt by Parliament to solve the problem. Badger diggers now know that if they are caught attacking a badger sett they have a 50 : 50 chance of getting off.The National Federation of Badger Groups, which represents about 70 voluntary badger protection groups, produced a report about a year ago which showed that badger setts have been attacked with various degrees of severity by terrier men and badger diggers, as well as by a small minority of farmers and some unscrupulous developers. Such people take advantage of the fact that, despite legal protection for the badger, the animal's home, its sett, is not protected. Early in 1989 a national survey of badger setts conducted by Dr. Stephen Harris for the Nature Conservancy Council supported the claim by the League Against Cruel Sports that up to 10,000 badgers are killed annually by badger diggers. I am sure that hon. Members will realise that when a sett is flattened by a JCB or flooded with slurry it is virtually impossible to obtain prosecution evidence of the injury or death of badgers because the evidence may be deep in an impenetrable tomb. Only last year a farmer was acquitted on appeal because of the absence of physical proof that badgers were present in the sett when it was flooded with slurry. In their eagerness to prevent foxes from using a badger sett to escape from the hounds, some fox hunts use methods of blocking far outside the code of practice of the Masters of Foxhounds Association and that causes severe problems to the resident badgers.
Mr. Colvin : Will the hon. Gentleman therefore acknowledge that the proper earth stopping of badger setts in no way harms the badger if it is carried out in accordance with the code of practice of the Masters of Foxhounds Association? Why did he not provide for that in his Bill?
Mr. Hughes : I hope that, with the co-operation of the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, we can accommodate that point in Committee.
My Bill seeks to block the loopholes in existing legislation by protecting the badger sett, the badger's home. Any reasonable person looking at what is happening would feel that such a measure was vital.
Mr. Ron Davies (Caerphilly) : My hon. Friend has been asked why he did not put in the Bill the concession that he has offered. It is as well to explore that issue for a moment because it would be helpful for my hon. Friend to tell the House that he is under pressure not only from fox hunters but from people who want to see 100 per cent. protection for badger setts. If my hon. Friend makes the concession to fox hunters that he has intimidated, he will encounter some resistance from those of us who do not want such a concession to be made. However, if he agrees to make it we shall agree to it. I hope that Conservative Members will accept in good faith what my hon. Friend said. The matter has to be dealt with in Committee. My hon. Friend wants to present the Bill as it is to accommodate our feelings, but we acknowledge that there will have to be concessions in Committee.
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Mr. Hughes : I appreciate my hon. Friend's point. I am a reasonable man, and from the outset I have approached this subject in a conciliatory spirit and will continue to do so.
Mr. Colvin : I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) for his intervention because it goes to the heart of objections to the previous Bill presented by the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks). I wholeheartedly concur with what the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) said about consultation. He has bent over backwards to meet us and to talk about these issues. However, it was clear from the start that this was one of the sticking points.
I cannot accept that provisions to the end that I have suggested could not have been included in the Bill when it was drafted. They were certainly included in the draft Bill which we let the hon. Gentleman see and which encompassed our suggestions in covering notes. I do not accept the argument that it was not possible. Everything is possible and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the essence of getting private Members' Bills through this place is compromise. Half a cake is better than none, and opponents of what is proposed should accept that a half cake is well worth having.
Mr. Hughes : The hon. Gentleman seems to expect a 100 per cent. concession. As he knows, there are two sides to this argument. I have received a great volume of correspondence from people all over the country who feel strongly on this issue.
Mr. Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare) : I have a different point from that of my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin). On Report I tabled two amendments to the last Bill to deal with the problems of badger setts in sea walls. I had a bad case in my constituency where a sea wall broke as a result of badger activity. I have had many representations from farmers about the problems associated with normal agricultural work. I have studied the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor) on a similar subject and the wording of it is quite acceptable. The hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) did not consult me, but must have known of my interest because I tabled amendments to the last Bill. I share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside that it is not acceptable to put a Bill before the House and then say, "I shall alter it in due course." The hon. Gentleman is the author of this Bill and he must understand that he will get opposition if he does not take account of these points at this stage.
Mr. Hughes : The hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin) has already said that I have consulted widely, so there is a difference between him and the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin).
I have here a report in The Independent, dated 26 August 1990, of a court case in mid Wales involving badger baiting. A gang of badger baiters was trapped by an anti-blood sports undercover agent, who made a video film of the cruelty. The report said :
"The men dig up a set and a terrier is sent down to drive out the first badger. It writhes and flips as four dogs tear into it, pinioning the animal so tightly that it can barely move its head and bite.
The excited dogs yap constantly. Their owners stand in a circle like children egging on a playground fight. The men's language complements their behaviour".
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There follows a series of obscenities which I do not wish to embarrass the House by repeating. The report continues :"The badger wiggles backwards and forwards, trying to throw the dogs off. It is an impossible task.
The digging out of the second badger begins. As it is forced up, a hunter helps it on its way, throwing it through the air with the dogs hanging off it. The pack is briefly called off and a shotgun is fired twice into the badger. The shots do not kill it so the dogs renew their attack. Fight' is an inappropriate description of the killing. The tormented badger does not have a chance
The third badger is pulled out and puts up the strongest resistance. Five dogs, terriers, tear into it. One of the men stabs the badger, to weaken it, not to kill it. The dogs are pulled off so the badger thinks it can escape. But when it gets a few yards, the dogs are unleashed and swarm over it again.
As the struggle drags on, one man casually walks up to the badger and stabs it six times. It survives, so he slits its throat. It takes a minute or so for the dogs to realise the badger is dead and they carry on jerking the body. The hunters are delighted Badger baiting is a crime, but the laws are not tight and successful prosecutions are rare. Mr. Barrington"--
of the League Against Cruel Sports--
"said that the league was pressing the Home Office to make it an offence to dig up the badger sett."
This is what I hope to achieve with my Bill.
There was a sequel to the court case. The five badger baiters were forced to run for their lives after the court hearing. The report said :
"The cowards fled from court after enraged animal lovers had watched a sickening video.
It showed badgers screaming in agony as they were shot, stabbed and baited by terriers."
Reading such gruesome details, it is difficult to believe that we living in a civilised society, let alone a Christian one. Clause 1 proposes to amend the Badgers Act 1973. It provides : "( ) If any person shall interfere with a badger sett by doing any of the following things, that is to say,
(a) damaging a badger sett or any part thereof ;
(b) destroying a badger sett ;
(c) obstructing access to or any entrance to a badger sett ; (
(d) causing a dog to enter a badger sett ; or
(e) disturbing a badger when it is occupying a badger sett intending to do any of those things or being reckless as to whether his actions will have any of those consequences, he shall be guilty of an offence."
In view of the episodes that I have just read out, I feel that such measures are ever more urgent.
In addition, the Bill protects farmers. If the National Farmers Union is not satisfied with my wording, I am prepared to look at a more acceptable formula. I have no wish to interfere with the legitimate functions of the farmer.
Mr. Colvin : I understand that the hon. Gentleman proposes that farmers be allowed to apply for a licence to interfere with badger setts. Has he thought through the bureaucracy of that? I am a farmer and I know that instant decisions have to be made and one cannot afford to go through a long, tangled bureaucratic process to get a licence to interfere when one is managing a farming operation. Will the hon. Member elucidate the licensing arrangements?
Mr. Hughes : I have had discussions with the National Farmers Union and it seems to be adopting a more reasonable approach than that which the hon. Gentleman is adopting.
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Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda) : Is it not a bit much for Conservative Members to make these excuses and apologies for not supporting the Bill? Would it not be better if people put their views forward honestly and allowed my hon. Friend to amend the Bill in Committee? At this stage of the game, it is a bit sickening to have apologists for the hunting and shooting set raise pathetic excuses such as the problems of bureaucracy so as to impede the progress of the Bill.
Mr. Hughes : I can understand my hon. Friend's feelings. As I said earlier, many people have written to me expressing equally strong feelings.
Clause 4 gives a definition of a badger's sett :
"any structure or place occupied or used by a badger for shelter or protection."
In a letter to me dated 29 January, the hon. Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor), who is the chairman of the British Field Sports Society, said that the Bill proposes protection for vacant badger setts, which are often occupied by foxes and rabbits. However, he is not allowing for the fact that badgers often return to a former home and may have vacated the sett only temporarily. Nevertheless, I give him my word that, in Committee, I shall attempt to reach agreement with his organisation. In other words, I shall seek a compromise. I trust that the British Field Sports Society will approach this matter in a conciliatory way. That is the method by which legislation can be enacted to tackle and stamp out this evil practice of badger baiting. My Bill is not a back-door attempt to curb fox hunting.
Mr. David Nicholson : I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say that. I shall revert to farmers' interests because farmers, especially those in the south-west, have land that in some instances is criss-crossed with setts and tunnels, many of which are empty. This has happened because of an increase in the badger population. When the setts and tunnels are empty, they are inhabited by rabbits, which do considerable harm to crops. On occasions, tunnels have collapsed beneath the weight of a tractor or during the disturbance of ploughing, causing injury and damage. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has said that he will consider these matters in Committee.
Mr. Hughes : The appropriate provisions are already in the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman reads the Bill, he will find the answer to his intervention.
In Northern Ireland, the badger and its sett are protected by law. It is time for the anomaly on the mainland to be corrected. I want all badger setts to be properly protected from the minority who continue to persecute a beautiful and harmless wild animal. 10 am
Sir Charles Morrison (Devizes) : I share the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) about the late Donald Coleman. Secondly, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on having been fortunate enough to secure a high place in the ballot. Having also done that, I know that a great deal of work was required. I know that, because over the years I have introduced two private Member's Bills. A great deal of background work has to be done before such Bills can be introduced on the Floor of the House.
At this early stage in my brief remarks I shall say something that may cause surprise and shock. I shall be
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supporting the Bill's Second Reading. I know that that will surprise those who wrote to me following my opposition to the detail, not to the principle, of the Protection of Badger Setts Bill, which was introduced last year by the hon. Member for Newham, North- West (Mr. Banks). These writers were clearly convinced that at best I was in favour of badger baiting and torture, which I am not and which I consider entirely repellant in every respect. At worst, they give the impression in many of their letters that for refreshment I had badger for lunch, tea and dinner, varying my diet only occasionally by turning to baby seals or hamsters.Some of the 2,000-odd letters that I have received were not unreasonable, but many were entirely unreasonable. That is my view, however, and perhaps I am wrong. I shall quote one which I consider to be unreasonable. It reads :
"I hope all your family die of cancer, you badger-hayting bastard."
That letter was wrong in fact. Almost the worst feature about it was that the spelling was not such as to enable the writer to obtain an O-level in English. Hating was spelt hayting, and perhaps that reflected the ability of the writer to think. The alleged affection of many writers of the letters to which I have referred towards wild animals seemed not to stretch so far as to include affection for homo sapiens. They did not appear to be the caring people to which the hon. Member for Newport, East referred.
I hate to disappoint those who wrote the sort of letter from which I quoted. They believe that I was determined to destroy badgers in one way or another. They must now exercise great intellectual agility to force themselves to believe otherwise.
We could and should have had a badger sett protection Act last year. Such a measure would now be on the statute book if it had not been for the obstinacy of the hon. Member for Newham, North-West and his unpreparedness to meet the legitimate arguments and amendments that were advanced and tabled by a number of hon. Members.
Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Sir Charles Morrison : I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, but before I do so I tell him that I shall not necessarily reply to his intervention. I say that because I am still waiting for him to answer a letter that I wrote him after his Bill was defeated last year.
Mr. Banks : The hon. Gentleman had an unpleasant experience and I share his concern and the concern of the entire House that people write such letters--I have received many similar letters on matters not connected with badgers--but we must not get over-sensitive. Those who write such letters destroy the validity of the case for the protection of badgers. It is as simple as that. For the hon. Gentleman to make great play of the loonies who write to him--there cannot be that many of them--is to undermine any serious points that he wants to make.
It was unfair of the hon. Gentleman, and untrue, to suggest that I was obstinate. Many concessions were made when my Bill was considered in Committee. It was the determination and selfishness of the fox-hunting lobby that caused the Bill to go down. That is the truth and the hon. Gentleman should recognise it.
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Sir Charles Morrison : That is complete rubbish. I was not a member of the Standing Committee that considered the hon. Gentleman's Bill. I understand, however, that fox hunting was debated in considerable detail during those proceedings. But on Report a number of amendments were tabled, such as the one which has been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin), and were not debated. Time did not permit that, because of the nature of the passage of private Members' legislation. In most instances the amendments were reasonable and would not have undermined the basic intention that lay behind the Bill.
Mr. Wiggin : I recall that I was on the mailing list of the League Against Cruel Sports, which published a pamphlet that included a photograph of my hon. Friend, under which there was an extremely abusive personal attack that was based on prejudice, not fact.
Sir Charles Morrison : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am glad that the hon. Member for Newport, East has decided already to try to meet legitimate concerns. Clause 2(2) states : "A person shall not be guilty of an offence if he shows that his action was unavoidable and was an incidental result of a lawful act."
That is helpful. Nevertheless, the subsection will need amending to meet some of the worries that have been expressed by the National Farmers Union. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman may have received the same letter that was sent to me by the NFU since his negotiations with it. In that letter the NFU raises what appear to be several legitimate concerns. None the less, the hon. Member for Newport, East has taken a considerable step in the right direction and I am grateful to him for that.
We should be as clear about what the promoter and sponsors of the Bill are not attempting to do as we are about what they are trying to do. There are some, not necessarily in this place but outside it, who are somewhat confused. As we all know, the Bill is not an attempt to protect the badger as a species. I think that the hon. Member for Newport, East will agree with me about that. It is important that that is understood, as many of the letters that I have received are from people who, no doubt genuinely, believe that the species is in danger. It is not, and that is why the Bill is specific.
The concept of protecting the species is covered adequately by the Badgers Act 1973, for which the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy) must take a good deal of the credit, together with a late cousin of mine, who introduced the Bill in another place. That legislation can also be credited to some extent for the current state of the badger population. Whether that is increasing or decreasing nationally is not certain. However, every opinion expressed or census taken so far implies that badger numbers have increased over a long period. I make that claim on the basis of information provided in the Nature Conservancy Council publication, "The Badger in Britain" and I shall base my remarks also on the views expressed to me by one of the scientists who wrote that report. It states that as long ago as 1846, the early extermination of the badger was predicted. It was thought to be practically extinct in England. During the late 19th century, many people expressed a similar sentiment. None the less, by 1905, although badgers were somewhat scarce, they were generally distributed, though they were still
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thought to be uncommon or rare in many areas of England, and sparsely distributed in Scotland. They were certainly thought to be rarer than 100 years earlier.In 1948, Ernest Neal, who has probably studied badgers more than anybody else, expressed the opinion that the badger was well distributed and was numerous in parts of Britain. Even so, within a few years there was a setback because of the use of organo-chlorine insecticides, which may have seriously affected badgers, just as they did other forms of wildlife.
Mr. Ron Davies : As the hon. Gentleman said, the badger enjoyed no legal protection prior to 1973. Despite its declining numbers, it was considered a legitimate quarry of many fox hunts, which would include their tally of badgers in their annual reports. Does the hon. Gentleman think in retrospect that that was appropriate behaviour for fox hunters to adopt?
Sir Charles Morrison : I do not know whether it was appropriate for fox hunters to do that prior to 1973, but fox hunters abide by the law and the Bill is aimed at trying to close a loophole in current legislation. That 1973 Act can take some of the credit for the current healthy state of the badger population.
In 1973, the hon. Member for Wentworth estimated that there were 40,000 to 50,000 badgers in Britain, which represented a decline of between 10,000 and 20,000 over the previous four years. The hon. Gentleman's figures were based on the Mammal Society's survey, but he expressed the opinion that the population was probably twice as high as that at the beginning of the century. In 1975, the hon. Member for Wentworth, perhaps on the basis of further analysis by the Mammal Society, estimated that the badger population had declined further, to about 35,000.
The latest survey by the Nature Conservancy Council, initiated with the support of the Mammal Society, estimates that there are approximately 250,000 adult badgers, with an annual production of about 105,000 cubs. It is clear that, in general, there has been a steady increase in badger numbers over the past 150 years. None the less, I emphasise that, although there may be population increases or decreases in various parts of the country, it is not certain whether the national figure is increasing or decreasing. The best scientific methods of assessing numbers are now used, but until they are applied more than once, comparative figures cannot be produced. However, it is clear also that there is no immediate need to worry about the status of the badger population--and, anyway, that is not the subject of the Bill.
There is a tendency for many people to assume that badgers are rare, simply because they are not often seen. Sadly, often the only badgers that we see are dead at the side of the road. It is forgotten that they are largely nocturnal animals. It should also be remembered that badgers are bad colonisers. Whereas an area cleared of foxes outside the breeding system will be populated again within a few weeks, an area made bare of badgers may take years, or even decades, to contain them again.
Against the background of a secure badger population, today's Bill or Bills --because that of my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor), the Protection of Badgers Bill, has the same objective--are aimed at protecting badger setts specifically. My hon. Friend's Bill seeks to safeguard them
"against acts likely to cause bodily harm to badgers."
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The NCC survey estimates that Britain's 250,000 badgers live in no fewer than 42,891 social groups, occupying 165,000 setts. Of those, the council estimates that 9,000 setts are dug each year. It is thought probable that most of the observed cases of digging relate to digging for badgers, not foxes.Scientists have categorised four different types of sett--main, annex, subsidiary and outlying. The number of main setts is equivalent to the number of social groups. The use of setts by foxes is mostly, though certainly not exclusively, of subsidiary and outlying setts. While I agree totally with the objective of protecting badger setts, a definition could exclude the very smallest type, thus reducing the problems that the Bill might otherwise create for farmers, foresters, fox hunters and other country users. The scientist partly responsible for the NCC report, to whom the hon. Member for Newport, East referred, informs me that it is not necessary, from a conservative standpoint, to protect every sett, and suggests that an appropriate definition would be
"a structure consisting of three or more entrance holes, and which is currently, or has been, occupied by badgers."
I am interested to note that my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster does not think that such a definition, which slightly reduces the scope of the Bill, is necessary, but I believe that it could meet some of the worries of the National Farmers Union. On the other hand, clause 4 of the Badgers Bill includes a definition, but it is much more comprehensive than my suggestion, which stems precisely from the views expressed by Dr. Stephen Harris. Doubtless we can return to that matter in Committee.
I am struck by the fact that the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster, in two major respects, appears to be much tougher than the Bill that we are debating this morning. First, it suggests a sharp increase in penalties for offences under the Badgers Act 1973. I believe that that is an important provision and I am surprised that the hon. Member for Newport, East does not refer to penalties. Secondly, clause 5 provides in principle to allow courts to disqualify those convicted of offences under the 1973 Act from keeping a dog. That is a pretty tough provision. Those two provisions provide an extra and a major deterrent to badger baiters or diggers, and I am sorry that they are not in the Bill. I hope that the hon. Member for Newport, East may be prepared to include them.
Mr. Roy Hughes : Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the Criminal Justice Bill contains certain new provisions--perhaps the Minister could enlighten us about them--that cover his remarks about penalties?
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