House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Feb 1991

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allow the uninhibited to play up to the cameras, which would be equally damaging to the proper conduct of the case. Although I recognise that none of the proponents of the Bill suggests that television should be allowed to record the most sensitive proceedings involving, for example, children or victims of sexual assault, it is worth stating in this context that the Government have done a great deal to recognise the vulnerability of certain witnesses by making provision for them, for example, to give evidence without the requirement that they be present in the court. There is a significant feeling that any move to televise courts would undermine the thrust of proposals in relation to other vulnerable witnesses who are still required to give evidence in person in court.

The Crown prosecution service has expressed to me its concern about the effect of televising on witnesses and, consequently, on the interests of justice. The Crown prosecution services prosecutes 1.7 million cases a year. It has responsibility for marshalling and, to some extent, caring for witnesses whom it has to bring before the court. The service fears that witnesses might be deterred from attending court because of the expected publicity and it fears that that may be true for defence witnesses just as much as for prosecution witnesses.

The service fears that witnesses may feel unable to give evidence in a fair and proper manner because of the camera. It fears that witnesses may be tempted to tailor their evidence to make it more acceptable to the viewing public. We do not know whether those fears are right or wrong, but they are real concerns, which must be addressed by any legislation permitting the televising of legal proceedings.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend, whose remarks have been helpful to people in favour of the Bill and those against it. Is he right in saying that those fears need to be addressed in legislation? As I understand it, the Bill allows for rules to be written under the legislation and those rules could maintain controls. As my right hon. and learned Friend rightly says, the Crown prosecution service is concerned about the effect that televising would have on witnesses. Indeed, it would be odd if it were not concerned.

An experiment is needed to see whether it is possible to measure the effects. It is possible to allow television by exception into prison and into other places from which it is normally excluded. Whatever the rules and restrictions, the court room is the only place into which it is impossible to take a television camera and in which it is impossible to record for any purpose.

The Solicitor-General : That is an important argument, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) may catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, and expand upon it. I have pondered the issue. Essentially, my hon. Friend is asking whether we cannot deal with it by rules of court. If it is the will of the House that the Bill makes progress, we shall give it a great deal of careful thought. The rules committee is largely made up of lawyers. One of the questions that we must ponder, as this is the first time that we have debated the subject, is whether there might be merit in it not merely being left for the rules committee to deal with, if the Bill makes progress. Perhaps the question should be given wider consideration outside the House. We are much indebted to the Bar for the

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research that it has done, but there is room here, and in the jury aspects of the issue, for research and consideration by people outside the rules committee. If the Bill makes progress, that could happen before we go further down the road.

Mr. Arbuthnot : My right hon. and learned Friend suggests that this matter could be dealt with by rules of court, but the way that witnesses would react cannot be dealt with by rules drawn up by lawyers. Reactions will differ from witness to witness and it is impossible to predict how a witness who has never thought about this problem will react to the introduction of television.

The Solicitor-General : My hon. Friend rightly brings us back to principle. The House and the other place would have to form a clear view about principle, and I agree with him. We have to make up our minds about that and the Government are listening carefully. I recognise that an essential condition of any televised reporting is that it should be fair and accurate, but that is not necessarily easy to achieve and it is not for lack of good will. Such is the immediacy of the impact of television that there is real danger, especially in jury trials, that it may distort the conduct of cases and the process by which jurors arrive at their decisions. I am conscious that the Bill proposes only an experiment but--to take another analogy--it is a live experiment, which is to be carried out on the trials of real people and we must bear that in mind. One of the advantages seen by the proponents of the Bill for its introduction is that television in courts would be valuable and educative. A great deal hangs on this claim, because, in essence, if that were not proved to be the case, there would be little advantage in televising courts at all. I have no doubt that it would, in part, serve such a purpose, and that a good deal of coverage would be balanced and informed. I should welcome that because the more that our system of justice can be understood, the more people will respect it and have confidence in it, and that is an essential feature. However, I must admit to certain anxieties about how matters might develop after the expiry of an experimental period. I am sure that we should see the educational purpose of televising proceedings at its best during the experimental period, but thereafter I am a little less sanguine, although I do not wish in any way to impugn the motives of broadcasters.

Broadcasters would be under considerable pressure to produce vivid, immediate television and it would be easy to cross that fine line between a fair and balanced report--the educative and public involvement aspects--and to drift over into entertainment, if not sensationalism. It is a difficult balance to strike.

Real trials, especially criminal trials, are in no sense a subject for entertainment and no hon. Member suggests that they are. Courts make wonderful theatre and television, but theatre does not deal with the lives of real people. The issues in criminal trials are intensely serious and often involve the need to recount intimate and all too often tragic personal details.

Although there would no doubt be an effort to provide safeguards to prevent the most obvious examples of potential abuse, it is often difficult, from the very nature of the criminal trial, to predict in advance exactly what will

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happen or to foresee all the circumstances that might push the televising of proceedings into prurience and sensationalism. As we debate these matters, our proceedings are televised and they may or may not be shown widely. Consequently, many hon. Members will naturally have regard to a number of the arguments that were made for and against the televising of Parliament. In the event, and after an appropriate trial period here and experience in another place, this House in its wisdom decided that its proceedings should be televised and I do not think that many hon. Members have had legitimate cause to regret that decision.

To some extent, that argument operates in favour of the Bill. Nevertheless, we should be cautious about drawing parallels. As politicians, we come to the House voluntarily and engage in our debates on matters of general principle and public importance. By long usage, we have become reasonably practised in public speaking--indeed, the cynics might say that some of us actually seek out exposure to the media. None of that is true in the process of a trial.

Judges and advocates may of course become used to the cameras, but the witnesses, victims and dependants seldom will. While we are permitted by the nature of our duties to deal in matters of high principle, they will often have to speak of and publicly expose intimate details about their private lives. I do not believe that the televising of Parliament provides a precedent and I am confident that hon. Members will recognise that a different set of considerations largely applies.

Whatever view the House may take about the televising of court proceedings in principle, I think it only right to record that if it is the will of the House to give the Bill a Second Reading, the Government would have to ensure--or do their best to ensure ; this is why we emphasise the principle --that a number of safeguards were introduced to reduce the risk of damage to the fabric of the administration of justice.

It would be necessary to ensure that the cameras were physically as unobtrusive and non-disruptive as possible. Technological advances have made that a much easier process than might perhaps once have been the case. The example of this place is a good one because the cameras here are not obtrusive. However, we must recognise the physical limitations of many of our court rooms and of the older court rooms in particular. As the Caplan report noted, many English court rooms are smaller than their United States counterparts. Very often, particularly in the sort of trials that I suspect would suggest themselves as most attractive to broadcasters, space is limited sometimes even for victims and their families. It would be important to ensure that whatever arrangements were necessary to permit television should not seriously diminish access to the general public. Only a certain number of cameras should be permitted and they should be permitted to show only certain types of shots, so that--here Parliament is a comparable example--the proceedings as a whole were balanced and there would be minimal inducement for people in the public gallery or elsewhere to disrupt proceedings for the sake of additional publicity that television might bring to their antics.

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There are also security matters to be considered concerning the televising of certain witnesses.

Dr. Woodcock : My right hon. and learned Friend has made the telling point that some of our courts are very small and that space is, of necessity, limited. He makes that case in relation to the availability of space to accommodate television cameras and equipment. However, the fact that those courts have limited space is the reason for having television in our courts. In many respects, space is so limited that only very few people can attend the court. The Bill would allow people to see into courts if they cannot gain access because of lack of space.

The Solicitor-General : Up to a point, my hon. Friend has made a good point. The cameras will allow many people to see a little more of what happens in court. However, we may have to be realistic and admit that the viewer will seldom be treated to a sequential view of what happens in court.

Television time is inevitably limited. There has been discussion of whether we should have a permanent channel fixed on the House. Much of such television would be terribly boring, but it would give a true impression of what went on. I do not think that anyone is suggesting that that could be replicated for court television. One would get snippety highlights of real cases affecting real people. Those matters must be balanced.

Only a certain number of cameras should be permitted. As I have said, the type of shots that they should be allowed should be carefully controlled. I have dealt with security for jurors and witnesses and the importance of not exposing them to increased risk of harassment or other interference.

There are certain courts and tribunals from which we should statutorily exclude television. For example, television should not be allowed to extend into magistrates courts or to most tribunals. We shall have to take careful steps to prevent proceedings involving children, whether criminal or civil proceedings, from being televised. It will be agreed on both sides of the House that any public exposure of the traumas and grief of particularly young and vulnerable victims must be avoided at all costs.

Mr. Michael Brown : My right hon. and learned Friend has mentioned some of the Government's concerns, in the event that the Bill is read a Second time, and the safeguards that he would want to introduce. For example, he said that he would not wish cameras to be in magistrates courts. Does not that fact alone show our difficulties with the Bill? There is already enough pressure on innocent people sometimes to plead guilty in a magistrates court because at least there is the certainty of a more minimal fine or prison sentence, whereas they are disinclined to expose themselves to the risk of going to a Crown court.

Does not that prove that even more innocent people will be inclined, on the advice of their legal advisers, to plead guilty in a magistrates court because they would be exposed to the rigours of television cameras if they take a chance and plead not guilty in the Crown court?

The Solicitor-General : There is something in my hon. Friend's point. I should not want to carry it too far, because one does not need to plead guilty in a magistrates court in order to avoid going on to the Crown court. One could plead not guilty and have one's case tried out, and not go on to the Crown court. My hon. Friend would have

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a point if that were to prevent somebody from taking trial by jury, which otherwise they would wish to do. That is a factor to be weighed, but I would not put it much higher than that.

We should also have to ensure that no televising could take place without the express consent of the trial judge. That is one of the suggestions that have been made. The trial judge is responsible for the conduct of proceedings in the court over which he presides, and his own assessment, from a uniquely knowledgeable position, of whether in a particular case the risks of allowing televising would outweigh the possible educational advantages must be decisive. I do not think that it would be right in any circumstances to permit the televising of proceedings in circumstances in which the trial judge did not consent to it.

There are also other questions relating to consent, some of them touched on by the Caplan report--whether, for example, the consent of the parties should be required. The Caplan report concluded that it should not, but I should like to reflect carefully upon the matter if the Bill were to make further progress. We are talking about experimentation.

I think also that it would be an important safeguard to give the Lord Chancellor a final decision on whether any particular proceedings or class of proceedings should be televised. Only he, as the Minister responsible for the provision of the higher courts, can take an overall view of the effect of television and, again, I am sure that the House would think it right that he should have the final say in those important matters.

Mr. Lawrence : Does my right hon. and learned Friend consider it remotely likely that any television company worth its salt in this country would want to go in for something requiring such expensive investment which was dependent on the whim of judges, Lord Chancellors or anyone else?

The Solicitor-General : The answer is probably yes, someone might very well want to do it. If not, no progress would be made one way or the other. There would be expense and those involved would argue, with some force, that, having gone to that expense, they should be allowed to show a reasonably wide range of television. That forces us to say that we cannot hedge this around with too many safeguards, because that would be unreal. We must weigh up such matters before deciding on the matter of principle. However, I cannot agree with my hon. and learned Friend that no people will come forward to ask for that.

I do not pretend to have exhausted either the full range of safeguards that would be required or, more importantly, the full range of issues of principle that should be considered before the House decides upon this important proposal, but I hope that I have said enough to indicate how seriously the Government take these proposals and how carefully we have sought to evaluate the potential advantages and disadvantages of this aspect.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston rightly emphasised that the proposal was to be only experimental and that there must be strict safeguards, but before we proceed, we must remember that these would be live experiments on the cases of real people. Before we proceed, we must be satisfied that the safeguards have a real chance of of being effective and that we do not have to hedge the privilege about so tightly that any

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benefits are outweighed by distortion. The Government wish to know the views of the House on that matter and, as I said, approach it with considerable caution.

The second aspect of this interesting Bill relates to jury research, I should like to ask the House to consider a number of interesting questions relating to whether the deliberations of the jury should be laid open to academic, and, thus, public scrutiny.

I have no difficulty in starting from the premise that the institution of jury trial is one of the great protectors of our liberties--I believe that passionately--and a means by which we can ensure public involvement and, therefore, public confidence in the trial of important criminal cases. I go as far as to say that, for serious offences, the right to jury trial must be high on anyone's list of those rights which underlie our system of the administration of justice.

I should like to quote the words of Lord Devlin in his book on this subject. He is a most distinguished judge, whose name, I am proud to say, is still the top name on my own chambers. He wrote : "In a democracy law is made by the will of the people and obedience is given to it not primarily out of fear but from goodwill. But just as important as the frame of the law is its application. The jury is the means by which the people play a direct part in the application of the law. It is a contributory part. The inter-relation between judge and jury, slowly and carefully worried out over several hundred years, secures that the verdict will not be demagogic ; it will not be the simply uninhibited popular reaction. But it also secures that the law will not be applied in a way that affronts the conscience of the common man. Constitutionally it is an invaluable achievement that popular consent should be at the root not only of the making but also of the application of the law. It is one of the significant causes of our political stability."

The right to trial by jury, to trial by our peers, is a very ancient right and is regarded by many, myself included, as one of the foundations of our liberties. It commands great public confidence. It seems to work well. In those circumstances, many who have misgivings about jury research warn strongly against meddling with a successful system. They argue--with force- - "If it isn't broken, don't mend it." This does not mean that we can be complacent about the institutions that serve as the basis of our liberties, and I do not criticise my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston for raising this subject. Their continuing good function and health should be the proper subject for scrutiny and the Government have not been slow to make alterations to the working of the system to ensure that the interests of justice are secured. Changes have been made, for example, to the age eligibility of jurors. That is right because people live longer, remain alert longer and have longer in their lives to play an active part. Changes have been made to the right to peremptory challenge and to the proper reasons why citizens should or should not be disqualified from jury service.

Nor should we expect, in the context of some 50,000 jury trials a year, that the workings of the jury in every individual case will always be perfect. There will be occasional lapses. There is anecdotal criticism of the way in which the jury system works. Some of it, no doubt, is misguided or based on prejudice or partiality of one form or another. Most research will be well placed, but it is an essential part of our system that, where juries convict in circumstances that are unsafe or unsatisfactory, those errors can be rectified by the appellate process.

My hon. Friend and those who promote this Bill do so from the very best of motives. They argue that it is

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essential that an institution of such importance should be subjected to rigorous scrutiny and that scrutiny can be sound in its method only if it is based on an ability to look at exactly what happens in the jury room. Those arguments were summarised incisively by my right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Chancellor in 1981 when, as Lord Advocate, he said :

"The jury system, great institution that it is, surely can stand up to properly conducted research".

A similar point was made by two English academic writers, who said :

"An institution which represents the very cornerstone of the English legal system and is central to the protection of the liberty of the subject ought to be open to reasonable scrutiny and public accountability, one part of which is responsible research." So, is the rule of confidentiality of jury room discussions as important as we believe? Secondly, could it be maintained in the face of research? Today, the answers to those questions are not really in dispute. It is fair to say that it is accepted by the House and supporters of the Bill as well as by opponents that confidentiality of the jury room is important and that, even if research is allowed, "publication of any fact or opinion relating to any matter which occurred or was alleged to have occurred in the course of the deliberation of the jury in any legal proceedings in such a manner as to identify the particular case, any party, witness or circumstances"

would remain prohibited and a contempt of court.

I have no doubt that this is wise, because I equally have no doubt that confidentiality is profoundly important. It enables frank discussion. It allows a full consideration not only of the broader issues but of the nuances that are so important to the administration of justice. The confidence of the jury room allows jurors to express and perhaps thereby to exorcise prejudice and views or to ventilate anxieties that they might well not wish to raise or discuss publicly. No worry of libelling anyone even begins to arise. It makes it easier for a juror to change his or her mind, an essential attribute in the give and take of the jury room, and it makes it easier to draw upon and give instances from one's own experience to influence one's fellow jurors.

The question is how far would research inhibit or damage these benefits of confidentiality. How successful would be the strict proviso about non- disclosure and non-publication of any identifiable fact, person or detail? Much would no doubt remain entirely confidential, but it is hard to believe that there would not be leaks. If high-profile cases were the subject of jury research, it might be surprising if there were not leaks and if some were not used to cast doubt on the verdict or on the system. Fears that views and attitudes may become public may themselves hinder and distort the juries' deliberations. Those are the important questions on which we must focus and form a view.

Those who support the Bill will argue that if the jury has flaws, it is better to know of them than to allow them to remain concealed. There may be advantages in learning the view of jurors on a number of matters in order to be able to assist the operation of jury trial. For example, are cases presented generally in a way that is clear and accessible to jurors? Are documents of assistance to the jury? Are visual aids of value? By and large, can the jurors hear witnesses and counsel clearly? That is a fundamental question. To what extent are they helped by the judge's summing up? Should summings up be longer or shorter?

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Are lengthy reviews of the evidence by the judge of value to the jury? It may be illuminating to have answers to more fundamental questions, such as how seriously, carefully and rationally most jurors approach their task, even if the answers to such questions are awkward.

I have never sat on a jury--some hon. Members will have done so--but I have frequently addressed juries, both for the prosecution and the defence, as an advocate and, as a recorder, I have watched them intently, guided them and given them my summing up. It is my impression that the great majority of jurors take their duties very seriously. They appear to listen carefully, to demonstrate considerable alertness to the key points and to do their very best to be just and fair. They appear, rightly, to dislike prosecutions for trivial matters, even if the evidence is sufficient. That is of value. Above all, they are genuinely good judges of the key matter of honesty and dishonesty.

On the whole, to express a personal view, I am inclined to think, with the Lord Chancellor, that the system would not be seriously threatened by properly conducted research. There would need to be strict guidelines, which would need to be argued through. That brings us to the question : what is properly conducted research? Here we know less than we are entitled to, which to some extent makes me think that the Bill is premature. What evidence is there that sufficient ground work has been done by way of other aspects of jury research to justify the prize of the secrets of the jury room? Forbidden fruit is often the most enticing, but, until information drawn from jurors themselves is placed in the context of more general research, it may be premature.

It is worth focusing on what kind of questioning should be permitted. The Bill proposes that the research may be conducted in "a manner approved by the person giving authority, into any specified matters affecting trial by jury".

The matters are no doubt to be specified in the rules, which it is suggested should be rules of court. If that is followed, the issues will be considered by the rules committee.

There may be an advantage in having the kind of rules appropriate to the proper control of research considered by more public discussion, perhaps by careful consideration by a committee similar to that which has considered the matter of televising the courts either by the Bar, the Royal Society or a committee of academic researchers interested in this subject. I do not want to go on too long, so I shall draw my remarks to a close and illustrate just one aspect of that.

An article in The Independent of 1 July 1988 by Mr. Sean Enright, a barrister, raised some genuine questions. He suggested a searching line of questions to be carried out by researchers :

"We need to know, for instance, how well juries are applying legal directions relating to proof, corroboration, previous convictions and accomplice evidence. And if necessary we need to know what steps we can take to better communicate legal concepts to jurors." The last matter about good communications is a comparative general point, but the earlier questions would need to be explored in considerable depth if the answers were to be of any value. I ask myself whether the jury are the right people to ask about the way in which they have applied directions about proof, corroboration and so on. If there is genuine doubt on those matters, is not the place for such doubts to be explored the Court of Appeal? In a case where corroboration is required, a jury will have been directed by

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the judge about what was capable of being corroboration and what was not. If the jury find the case proved, they will presumably have been satisfied that there was corroboration.

That type of question would seem to be better researched by an examination of the transcript of the hearing, considerations in summing up, discussion perhaps with the prosecution and defence lawyers, and a consideration of any proceedings in the Court of Appeal. To ask a juror after the event to look back and to analyse his mind on such a matter would seem to require extremely detailed and intrusive questions, the answers to which might not be easy to evaluate and might lead to misleading conclusions.

In the United States there are no such restrictions. Jurors, in a sense, can be asked questions by almost anybody. The judges much disapprove of it, but there is a conflict in United States law concerning the first amendment, which allows publicity and publication of almost anything, unless there is a clear and evident danger, which virtually means danger of military attack almost related to the Gulf, or something of that nature.

The Americans have suffered from juries being considerably harried by litigators, parties to the case and, to some extent, researchers. Little research has been carried out, but there was an occasion in 1955 when the Senate judiciary committee castigated some researchers for the use they made of their research. Yet careful and balanced research, which would be available in the United States, does not seem to have been carried out, and that raises questions about how quickly we should proceed in the matter.

Dr. Woodcock : We have not suggested that the type of questions to which my right hon. and learned Friend referred are necessarily the right questions to be asked when doing research with jurors. We think that it would be appropriate to address those questions that would enable the juryman to perform his role better. We object to the absolute ban on jury research. We are not suggesting that there should be a free-for-all in jury research, but simply that it is inappropriate to say that never for any reason should a juryman be questioned.

The Solicitor-General : I appreciate my hon. Friend's point and I have indicated a certain personal sympathy towards it. It is an important subject and it is right that we should not be afraid to address the difficult questions to which I referred.

The House will recognise from what I have said that the Government keep an open mind on both issues, but that there are real questions to be answered by the proponents of the Bill before they can clearly be said to have established the principle of change. The Government wish to listen carefully on these matters to the views of the House. 1.9 pm

Mr. John Fraser (Norwood) : This is a short Bill, but as is often the case, the length of the speeches has been in inverse proportion to that of the legislation.

I support the Bill. This is not a matter on which we take a party line, but my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), my fellow legal affairs spokesman, agrees that we should adopt a

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constructive and helpful attitude. The Solicitor-General claimed to be neutral on the matter, but it seemed a rather obstructive kind of neutrality.

I shall speak as briefly as I can. The hon. and learned Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) argued that television trivialised and sensationalised the facts and would therefore be inappropriate in the courts. It does, of course, trivialise on occasion, and is sometimes in extraordinarily bad taste. It could have other damaging effects : the mere fact that about two thirds of our population get their news from television tells us something about the decline in reading standards.

None the less, when it comes to examining human rights and freedoms, television has much to commend it. I do not think that the recent peaceful revolutions in eastern Europe, and the trend towards democracy and freedom which, although tragically halted in China, is still progressing in the Soviet Union, would have been possible without television : it has provided both a projection of human rights and the advancement of democratic and just institutions. It has played an invaluable part in the emancipation of eastern Europe and other parts of the world. We should consider the positive aspects, as well as the negative aspects mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Burton.

Televising the courts would, of course, be an experiment. There is a precedent in the televising of the House of Commons. I was a member of the Select Committee on televising as long ago as 1967 ; some 22 years elapsed between the publication of our report and the launching of the experiment. Even 24 years ago, we saw no insuperable technical problems. Cameras could be small, unintrusive and unintimidating--as they have turned out to be. Lighting, which is frequently complained about, need be no stronger than the lighting required in offices, factories and other premises to comply with the law.

Nor have there been any problems in relation to editing restraint and balance--and the courts will have much greater powers than the House of Commons over editing and exclusion of material. Much as I respect you, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is not open to you to edit any part of this morning's proceedings or to complain about balance or about what can be broadcast ; it is, however, open to a judge to exclude evidence when conducting a trial. It is extremely unlikely that any trial will be carried live ; that would involve great dangers, and I do not think that anyone has advocated it. The power to edit and exclude, however, is inherent even in existing legislation.

The most important reason for allowing the televising both of Parliament and, experimentally, of the courts is that people are entitled to observe the workings of the institutions that govern their lives and liberties. They have the right to be present--if only electronically--to assess those institutions and to change them if need be. No matter how high and grand such institutions may be, they are not ultimately intended to be sacred or mysterious ; they are intended to act as the servants of the population, not the masters. The same sentiments apply to television, but that is another matter. For centuries, the axiom has been that justice should not only be done but be seen to be done. In practice, few people would want to sit through the unedited proceedings of a court. I must declare an interest as a lawyer. Unless I have been an advocate in a case, I have never had any great interest in attending a trial. My boredom threshold is

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quickly reached and most members of the public would find it difficult to withstand the boredom of a trial. However, they have a right to see a balanced and edited version of how our institutions work.

Television can illuminate the working of the courts, as it has illuminated the working of the House. It can increase people's respect and understanding of our legal system and bring a public lay focus to bear on its workings. It will enable the public, in appropriate cases, to witness matters of interest and concern to them and how the law is being administered.

If I have the right to walk into a court and view its proceedings, why should I not have the right, subject to proper safeguards, to view that through a camera? I should have that right, unless my exercising it diminishes the rights of others, principally the defendant whose case is in issue before the court. I have a right to view, but the defendant has more right to a fair trial without his or her rights being interfered with by the cameras or by my viewing the case. That balance must be struck. In the long term, however, the exercise of my right to view and to reach a judgment may enhance the effectiveness of the administration of justice and the rights of others.

We cannot judge whether televising the courts will, in practice, diminish or enhance the rights of others or remain, like the Solicitor-General's speech, neutral until there has been an experiment and research--hence the justification for the Bill. If research shows that televising the courts is unviable, it can be dropped, but it is worth while to begin research under the rules of court and under the supervision of judges and the Lord Chancellor. Those are immensely powerful safeguards against abuse of such research.

I do not deny that there are problems and that the worst problems will occur in criminal trials. There is bound to be disproportionate punishment and injury to a defendant, regardless of whether he or she is convicted or acquitted. If proceedings relating to a minor case of indecent exposure were televised, the damage done to the defendant would be the same, regardless of whether he was convicted or acquitted, and his suffering would be disproportionate to the gravity of the offence. That is a good argument for not televising magistrates courts.

Juries are told by judges that they must not be influenced by other people or discuss the case, but if it has appeared on television there is a risk of discussion. There is a risk to jurors if their faces are seen on television. However, those matters can be dealt with. The jury should never appear on the television camera. Moreover, the problems of televising trials can be compared with those experienced by jurors when a trial is discussed extensively in the newspapers. I have no problem about imposing reporting restrictions, because widespread restrictions on the press already exist. Without the consent of the defendant, it cannot report on committal proceedings, and there are restrictions on reporting trials for rape, blackmail and other matters.

Although I could list the difficulties involved, there is a strong case for experimenting with cameras in court and not concentrating too much on televising criminal trials. It is possible to exaggerate the difficulties involved in allowing the public access through television cameras, but in many judicial venues it would be almost impossible to

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imagine interference in the conduct of justice. For instance, I do not see how there could be prejudice in the occasional televising of the Judicial Committee of the other place. If the Chamber of the other place is televised, I see no problem about televising members of that Chamber when sitting in a committee room giving judgment or deciding an appeal. After all, they give their judgment in the Chamber. It would be ludicrous to say that there is no prejudice when the Law Lords are seen legislating, but that there would be prejudice when they were seen passing judgment in a Judicial Committee case.

Mr. Lawrence : The hon. Gentleman's remarks touch on an important question, which I asked my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor- General, but to which I received the wrong answer. First, does the hon. Gentleman consider that television companies will have much enthusiasm for televising the courts if everything is to be "cabin'd, cribb'd, confin'd" by all those restrictions and limitations?

Secondly, the difference between televising the courts and televising Parliament is, I believe, that the state pays for the televising of Parliament. I doubt whether television companies will want to invest in the expenditure required for permanent coverage in the courts.

Mr. Fraser : My answer is exactly the same as that of the Solicitor- General--yes. However, to take the matter a little further, the Bill is not an exercise for the benefit of televison companies. They must decide whether televising court trials will be commercially worth while. They may decide that it is not, just as running a newspaper may not be commercially worth while, but that is a question for them and not for us.

The Judicial Committee of the other place deals with some fairly important matters. That would have been appreciated if the conduct and judgment in the Hammersmith swaps case had been recorded on television. That case was not merely of municipal importance but of massive financial importance for this country and internationally. I happen to believe that the legal precision of the judges in another place was not preferable to the Court of Appeal's rather more pragmatic and common-sense approach, but other people might have looked at an edited version of that trial in the Court of Appeal and the conduct of the appeal in another place and formed their own judgment. I mention that case because it is one of worldwide and not just municipal importance. There will be considerable interest in recording such a case as it would show how our courts work. Such coverage would not mean any possible prejudice to the people involved.

What about judicial inquiries into the building of nuclear power stations? Most members of the public would find it impossible to attend an entire inquiry, which would take many months, but such inquiries are of major importance to specific localities. Why should people not have the opportunity to see an edited version of the conduct of those proceedings? Such inquiries may also cover subjects such as whether county hall should be a municipal building or a hotel. I see no prejudice in those events, particularly if the proceedings are edited. I can think of many other examples of non-criminal proceedings which could properly be recorded for television.

On criminal proceedings, I recognise that there is a danger in having trials of first instance televised, but what about the forthcoming appeal of the Birmingham Six?

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That case generates transnational interest and the workings of the appeal system are under scrutiny. I shall say no more about that case, as it is before the courts now, but the televised proceedings not just of that case but of others on appeal would generate great interest as they would highlight the workings of the appeal system. We shall not know whether I am right or, indeed, whether anyone else is until we have had an experiment. However, there are many instances where the cameras could go into a court unobtrusively to reveal the workings of the legal system without prejudice or embarrassment to those involved in that process.

At present it is impossible to interview juries even for the purpose of helping them to do their job better. I believe that there should be a controlled, supervised, anonymous and confidential mechanism to enable questions to be asked of jurors. That would reveal how well they follow the evidence and the documents presented to them. One could also learn how effective was the summing up on their decisions. The Solicitor-General gave a list of questions that could be asked in the course of research on juries.

No one in the House doubts that juries are the cornerstone of our criminal justice system. We do not know how long we have had juries. Some people argue that juries existed before 1066, but it is certainly beyond doubt that they were introduced for criminal trials in 1166 by Henry II. They have the enormous advantage of giving the public confidence in the verdicts delivered. It is odd that people have more confidence in the judgment of laymen than ever they have in the judgment of experts. It is when an expert tells us that something is safe, or something cannot happen, that we need to be on our guard.

There is great confidence in the judgments and verdicts of our peers, and long may that be so. As the Solicitor-General said, juries provide a safeguard against trivialising the law and against unjust laws--in that context, perhaps, one is allowed to mention section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911. Certainly juries provided protection at a time when people could suffer capital punishment for the most trivial offences because in those circumstances juries refused to convict. I am sure that that led to a change in the law when less punitive offences were introduced for those engaged in what would now be regarded as minor acts of dishonesty. At one time causing criminal damage to trees was subject to capital punishment.

It is extraordinary that no one has ever been able to carry out research into the way in which juries function. Some may say that the function of the jury is not in doubt and the Solicitor-General said that there is no need to mend something that is not broken. However the report of the Roskill committee, which looked into serious fraud, posed many questions about the function and effectiveness of juries. Although its remit was in relation only to complex fraud trials, many of its remarks about questioning the effectiveness of the function of the jury have equal application to other complex cases involving, for instance, complex scientific evidence as opposed to complex accountancy evidence.

The Roskill report states :

"We doubt whether the public at large appreciates the characteristics of a complex fraud case"--

one could substitute the words "complex criminal case" for "complex fraud case"--

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"or the difficulties which face an average juror. World financial markets are becoming more complex, more integrated and interdependent, more competitive and more automated We see now a few cases of fraud where the evidence is so complex and the alleged dishonesty so deeply buried, that even a trained business mind cannot easily encompass the case and all its ramifications."

The report concluded that some fraud trials should have not a jury but a special kind of serious fraud tribunal. I am glad that the Government and the House rejected that proposition, but that does not take away from us the responsibility--as we have chosen to say that even in the most complex cases juries should continue to govern the verdict--of ensuring that juries are better able to discharge their functions. We have confirmed and ratified that responsibility.

Mr. Andrew Mitchell : I hoped that the hon. Gentleman would say that some trials are so technical that a lay jury is not the right body to adjudicate upon them. That is completely different from questioning whether juries should be put through an inquisition to find out whether they are up to the job, which undermines the principle of having a jury.

Mr. Fraser : I am not arguing, and I did not argue during the Roskill inquiry, that there are cases so complex that a jury is not fit to discharge its present function in them. I have never argued that. The verdict of the House is that we should continue with the jury system and I do not want to undermine that. Having decided that juries should continue to give the verdict in serious fraud trials, we need to sustain their ability to understand and properly to discharge their function. If we do not, there is a danger that guilty men will go free simply because the jury cannot follow the proceedings. If that is so of fraud trials, it must be so of other trials. My argument would be sustained if one removed the word "fraud" from the Roskill inquiry and considered just the word "complex". A passage in the Roskill report sums that up : "When the case eventually comes to trial the juror is faced with many difficulties. He is initially likely to be unfamiliar with the procedure. There may be many defendants, and multiple charges against each."

That goes for other than fraud trials. The report states : "He may have difficulty in remembering who's who and who is accused of what. The background against which the frauds"--

one could say other crimes--

"are alleged to have been committed--the sophisiticated world of high finance and international trading--is probably a mystery to most or all of the jurors, its customs and practices a closed book." That is true of other crimes. The report continues :

"Even the language in which the allegedly fraudulent transactions have been conducted will be unfamiliar."

The report states :

"A knowledge of accountancy or book-keeping may be essential to an understanding of the case. If any juror has such knowledge, it is by chance."

The Roskill committee considered the problem of examining documentary evidence and said :

"The evidence before the jury may run to hundreds, or even thousands, of documents. Sometimes these are presented in huge, ill ordered bundles. Little attempt may have been made to summarise or simplify the evidence."

That criticism is true of many other trials. The report continued :

"Sometimes the tactics of the lawyers will seem designed to obsecure rather than to evince the truth".

I am sure that that will interest the hon. and learned Member for Burton.

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