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Mr. Chope : I had not intended to mention New South Wales in detail. There is a code of guidance there, and my hon. Friend and others will be interested to know that as part of that code says : "A random breath testing station is not to be established in the immediate vicinity of licensed premises."

I do not understand why that provision is included. Many people who support the principle of the new clause may be concerned when they analyse what might be contained in the controls that would be introduced under it.

This has been a high-quality debate. We had moments of passionate intensity and serious deliberation and we had expressions of brotherly love in the Labour party, as exemplified by the exchanges between the hon. Members for Bassetlaw and for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott). The latter called his honourable enemy a twit, which elicted the memorable response from the hon. Gentleman that he was speaking as a working-class Labour voter. On the evidence of tonight's debate, working-class Labour voters may be an endangered species, and we should place a preservation order on the hon. Member for Bassetlaw.

Mr. Ashton : I should put it on record that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) apologised for losing his temper. I accepted his apology and we are now the best of friends.

Mr. Chope : On that happy note, I shall resume my seat.

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Column 866

Ms. Ruddock : I shall delay the House for only a few moments to respond to the debate on the new clause that stands in my name and the names of some of my hon. Friends.

I regret that the Minister concluded his remarks in the way he did, because this has been an extremely serious debate. We should concentrate our thoughts on the main issue involved, that of deaths and injuries. During the debate, a number of myths have been peddled by those who oppose the idea of random breath testing, and they have suggested that the powers to have random breath tests already exist. They do not. What is being used by some police forces in Britain is a combination of the power randomly to stop combined, with the power to test on suspicion. Those two powers have been combined by some chief police officers in a way that has not been authorised by the House and is a combination of powers that many other police forces have chosen not to use.

By tabling the new clause, we seek in no way to remove those powers from the police. We have no intention of trying to end targeted testing, of which we thoroughly approve and which has produced good results by reducing the number of drink-related accidents. We seek to add an additional power to permit truly randomised testing. That testing would be accountable. It would not distinguish between people--types, classes and so on--but would say, in effect, "If your car is passing a random test point and you are a chosen number, you will be stopped for a legitimate purpose," and that purpose would be to deter those who choose to break the law by drinking and driving. This is not, as has been suggested, a response by my party designed to court popularity. I have called in aid the support of the general public. That supports our case, and we cite it because we are convinced that, if our proposal were introduced, it would have public support. So the public would understand what it was all about and would be willing to co-operate in its implementation.

I remind the House that 800 deaths per annum are involved in this argument. My hon. Friends and I believe that if we can do something to help reduce that number of deaths, we should do it. We are convinced of our case. There is room for improvement on all that has been done by the Government to date. For that reason alone, we urge support for the new clause.

Confident though we are of our case, we have allowed our Members a free vote. I hope, with hon. Members anxious to vote on the issue, that those on the Government Benches who support us will have the courage to follow their consciences.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time :

The House divided : Ayes 157, Noes 265.

Division No. 81] [8.9 pm

AYES

Adams, Mrs. Irene (Paisley, N.)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Armstrong, Hilary

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Beckett, Margaret

Beggs, Roy

Beith, A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Benton, Joseph

Bermingham, Gerald

Bidwell, Sydney

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Boyes, Roland

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Cartwright, John

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Column 867

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clay, Bob

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Cohen, Harry

Corbett, Robin

Cryer, Bob

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

Day, Stephen

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Doran, Frank

Douglas, Dick

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Eadie, Alexander

Eastham, Ken

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Fatchett, Derek

Faulds, Andrew

Fearn, Ronald

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

Fisher, Mark

Flynn, Paul

Foster, Derek

Galloway, George

George, Bruce

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Golding, Mrs Llin

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Gordon, Mildred

Gould, Bryan

Graham, Thomas

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Grocott, Bruce

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Haynes, Frank

Heal, Mrs Sylvia

Hinchliffe, David

Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Mo n)

Kilfedder, James

Kirkwood, Archy

Lamond, James

Lee, John (Pendle)

Leighton, Ron

Lestor, Joan (Eccles)

Lewis, Terry

Livsey, Richard

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Loyden, Eddie

McAllion, John

McAvoy, Thomas

McCartney, Ian

Macdonald, Calum A.

McFall, John

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

McKelvey, William

McLeish, Henry

McMaster, Gordon

McNamara, Kevin

McWilliam, John

Madden, Max

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Marek, Dr John

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Maxton, John

Michael, Alun

Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

Morgan, Rhodri

Morley, Elliot

Mudd, David

Mullin, Chris

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

O'Brien, William

O'Hara, Edward

O'Neill, Martin

Pendry, Tom

Prescott, John

Primarolo, Dawn

Quin, Ms Joyce

Redmond, Martin

Reid, Dr John

Richardson, Jo

Robertson, George

Rogers, Allan

Rooker, Jeff

Rooney, Terence

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Ross, William (Londonderry E)

Ruddock, Joan

Salmond, Alex

Sedgemore, Brian

Sheerman, Barry

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Short, Clare

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Spearing, Nigel

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Steinberg, Gerry

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Taylor, Rt Hon J. D. (S'ford)

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

Thornton, Malcolm

Wallace, James

Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

Wigley, Dafydd

Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

Wilson, Brian

Winnick, David

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mrs. Maria Fyfe and

Dr. Lewis Moonie.

NOES

Aitken, Jonathan

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Allason, Rupert

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Ashby, David

Ashton, Joe

Atkins, Robert

Baldry, Tony

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Bendall, Vivian

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Benyon, W.

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

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