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House of Commons

Tuesday 26 February 1991

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

Standard Life Assurance Company Bill

[Lords] As amended, considered ; to be read the Third time.

London Underground

(No. 2) Bill--

Order for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time tomorrow.

Heathrow Express Railway Bill

[Lords]

Ordered,

That the Committee on the Heathrow Express Railway Bill [Lords] have leave to visit and inspect the sites of the proposed works and areas affected by the proposed works, provided that no evidence shall be taken in the course of such visit and that any party who has made an appearance before the Committee be permitted to attend by his Counsel, agent or other representative.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]


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Oral Answers to Questions

EMPLOYMENT

Employment Training

1. Mr. Jack Thompson : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what measures he will introduce to improve employment training.

12. Mr. Cryer : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what measures he is taking to increase the level of employment training ; and if he will make a statement.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Howard) : I announced in November additional flexibilities to enable training and enterprise councils to increase the effectiveness of employment training. I am announcing today that an extra £120 million will be made available to training and enterprise councils in England and Wales and to Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise in Scotland to ensure that employment training can continue to play its full part in helping unemployed people back to work.

Mr. Thompson : That announcement does not compensate for the fact that since 1988 £1 billion has been taken out of the training bill. Is it not a national disgrace that quality training, which is one of the cornerstones of the improvements that we might expect to see in the British economy, has been greatly damaged by the fact that so much funding for training has been removed? Is the Secretary of State aware that we are going through a catastrophic time for training and that after the present crisis the British economy will be seriously damaged due to the lack of investment in training not just in the past year or two but for the past 10 years?

Mr. Howard : One thing is absolutely clear about these additional resources. In the debate on the autumn statement, the shadow Chancellor reaffirmed that training would not be one of the two immediate priorities for a Labour Government--so what we are devoting to employment training is at least £120 million more than the Labour party would make available.

Mr. Cryer : Can the Secretary of State explain how the sale of 51 skillcentres, accompanied by a gift from the Government of £70 million, has improved the availability of training in this country when the activity of the three insider dealers who bought most of the skillcentres has been concerned principally with sacking instructors, selling off freehold sites and selling the valuable machinery and equipment used by the skillcentres to train people? When will the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain what value this audacious taxpayers rip-off is to the people who want employment training?

Mr. Howard : The hon. Gentleman persists in making entirely unfounded allegations about the sale of skillcentres. The skillcentres were making a substantial loss. It is clear that they can now provide training much more effectively in the private sector, and that is exactly what they are doing.


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Mr. Nicholls : Does my right hon. and learned Friend not find it bizarre to be accused by Labour Members of underfunding employment training when that and every other major training initiative introduced by the Government has been attacked and opposed by them from the beginning? Does he agree that it would be more appropriate for them to support employment training instead of trying to supplant our training schemes by calling for the reintroduction of a training levy on employers, bearing in mind how that failed to produce the goods in years gone by?

Mr. Howard : I agree with my hon. Friend. Nothing remotely comparable with employment training was available when Labour Members were last in office. They have consistently opposed every training initiative that we have introduced, which makes their claim to be the guardians of training entirely laughable.

Mr. Madel : As there is a shortage of people trained in electronics and electronic engineering, will my right hon. and learned Friend ask the training and enterprise councils to make training in that sector of industry a priority, especially as they now have welcome new money?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend will appreciate that the essence of training and enterprise councils is that they should be able to tailor training programmes to local circumstances in order to equip local people with the skills that they need to fill local jobs. I am sure that, in carrying out that remit, the councils will bear in mind the needs of the sector to which my hon. Friend refers.

Mr. Blair : Will the Secretary of State confirm that the £120 million that he has announced is less than a third of the amount that he is cutting from the Department of Employment budget for next year alone? Will he guarantee to save the thousands of training places at risk, the training providers who are going out of business and the training programmes that are being closed? If he will not give that guarantee, are we not justified in saying that the Government, having created unemployment, are now abandoning the unemployed?

Mr. Howard : Why does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that his colleague the shadow Chancellor has made it plain that training is not one of the two priorities on which the Opposition would immediately increase spending if they were ever to form a Government? Until we get a commitment about that from the shadow Chancellor, Opposition complaints about funding are entirely unjustified.

Sir Anthony Meyer : Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that the welcome improvement in training that he has worked out during his period of office is none the less deficient for those with special training needs, many of whose training schemes will be imperilled by the new system of organisation? Has he any word of comfort for those people?

Mr. Howard : I announced some months ago that for the first time those with disabilities would be included in the aim group, which has a high priority in employment training. Those with disabilities now have a higher priority in training than ever before.


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Labour Statistics

2. Mr. O'Brien : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what information he has on the number of job losses in the period 1 June 1990 to 1 February 1991 in (a) the Yorkshire and Humberside region and (b) for the rest of the United Kingdom ; and if he will make a statement.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Eric Forth) : During the seven months June to December 1990, it is provisionally estimated that there were 8,000 confirmed redundancies in the Yorkshire and Humberside region and 62,500 in Great Britain. The estimates are based on the number of redundancies confirmed as having occurred following receipt of a notification under the Employment Protection Act 1975.

Mr. O'Brien : Those figures show that the Government's policy of high interest rates is crippling output and investment and creating unemployment throughout the country. In the Yorkshire and Humberside region over the past few months, bankruptcies have been increasing monthly. There have been more unemployment and more redundancies than ever before, all because of the Government's high interest rates and unified business rate policies. When will the Minister's colleague the Secretary of State create facilities to increase employment and not create further unemployment?

Mr. Forth : I am disappointed but not surprised that the hon. Gentleman should talk his region down. His region has been one of the more robust during this period of economic difficulty. I remind the hon. Gentleman that when he was elected to the House in 1983 there were 3,139 unemployed people in his constituency. The figure is now 2,261. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be grateful for the fact that his constituency has seen such a dramatic fall in unemployment since he was elected. In the Yorkshire and Humberside region, unemployment is down by nearly 100,000 since 1987.

Mr. Riddick : Does my hon. Friend agree that, because of recent investment and productivity improvements, Yorkshire firms are in a much better position to take advantage of the economic upturn when it takes place than they were in the last recession 10 years ago? Does my hon. Friend not find it rather sickening that Opposition Members talk about unemployment only when it is going up and not when it is coming down?

Mr. Forth : Yes. Typically, my hon. Friend has pointed to the strength and dynamism of his region and is rightly showing a pride in the performance of his constituents and the firms in his constituency. What a contrast that is with Opposition Members.

3. Mr. John D. Taylor : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many people are unemployed at present and how many people were unemployed 12 months ago.

Mr. Howard : In January 1991 unemployment in the United Kingdom on the seasonally adjusted, consistent, basis was 1,888,500 compared with 1,615,800 a year earlier.

Mr. Taylor : Does the Secretary of State expect unemployment to increase next year at the same rate as


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during the past year? As the Government have surrendered their freedom to assist industry by reducing interest rates as a result of their membership of the exchange rate mechanism, will the Government now consider assisting employment figures in the kingdom by reducing the taxation burden on business?

Mr. Howard : The key to the long-term performance of the United Kingdom economy is the rooting out of inflation from that economy. Our membership of the ERM has an important part to play in reinforcing anti- inflationary disciplines. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that unemployment in his constituency, which was 4,206 at the last election, is now down by nearly 1,000 to 3,306.

Mr. Gregory : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that unemployment would be considerably higher if it were not for tourism, for which he has departmental responsibility? In view of the growth in tourism since 1979 and the present crisis, will he look sympathetically at the possibility of increasing the British Tourist Authority's budget so that unemployment figures do not rise in that growth sector?

Mr. Howard : I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of the tourist industry, which has made a conspicuous contribution to the reduction in unemployment that we have seen in recent years. My noble Friend the Minister with responsibility for tourism is making an announcement today which will enable the British Tourist Authority and the English Tourist Board to make more funds available for an advertising campaign which will help them to ensure that the industry continues to play an important part in reducing unemployment in Britain.

Mr. Leighton : Is not the present explosion in unemployment the final proof of the Government's failure? Is it not true that in each of the 11 years the Government have been in office unemployment has been higher than it was under Labour? As the economy requires at least 2 per cent. growth to remain stable, and as unemployment is a lagging indicator, is it not true that unemployment will rise for as far ahead as we can see? Will the Secretary of State have the grace to admit in plain English that that is a major failure on the part of the Government?

Mr. Howard : If the hon. Gentleman is making comparisons between what has happened under this Government and what happened under the Labour Government, he should give credit for the fact that there are some 2 million more jobs in Britain now than there were in 1979, that we have one of the lowest rates of unemployment in Europe, and that more than half the people who become unemployed leave unemployment within three months.

Training and Enterprise Councils

4. Mr. Stevens : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment how many training and enterprise councils are now operational.

Mr. Howard : Excellent progress is being made in setting up training and enterprise councils. All 82 TECs in


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England and Wales are now in place, with 51 fully operational. By the summer, the full network will be up and running-- a full two years ahead of schedule.

Mr. Stevens : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the enterprise function of the TECs is of great importance and will aid the creation and survival of many small firms in future? But does not he find it regrettable that the Opposition are silent on the TECs' enterprise role?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is right. The TECs' enterprise role is crucial. They attach enormous importance to it. All we hear from the Opposition is that they attach importance to the enterprise role of local authorities.

Mr. Steinberg : Is the Secretary of State aware that since the introduction of the TECs in the northern region many schemes have been cut by between 40 and 50 per cent. and some schemes have had to finish? Is it not a disgrace that many of the trainees who have been made redundant and are now on the scrapheap are the less able ones? When will the right hon. and learned Gentleman do something about it?

Mr. Howard : Trainees have not been put on the scrap heap and the hon. Gentleman should not make allegations of that sort. The interests of trainees are being safeguarded and alternative arrangements made when it is necessary for providers to cease operating. Training and enterprise councils ensure that effective training is provided, which sometimes means that existing providers are no longer able to carry on.

Training Credits

5. Mr. Andrew Mitchell : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement about the progress of the training credit pilots.

Mr. Howard : I was delighted to present the first training credits to young people in Suffolk on 14 February. In the coming months some 45,000 young school leavers throughout the pilot areas will have the opportunity to use training credits to obtain approved training of their choice.

Mr. Mitchell : Are not training credits an innovative and extremely individual approach towards training and very welcome because of that? Do they not mark an enormous contrast with the tired and outdated policies rewrapped by the Labour party which depend, as ever, on compulsion and coercion?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Labour party has learnt nothing. Its reaction is always the same--reach for a quango, impose a new tax and introduce a dose of compulsion.

Ms. Armstrong : Does the Minister not realise that training credit money is coming out of other money for training, which has been so savagely cut that many people--certainly those served by the Durham TEC--will lose any chance of training and that the opportunity to link training with employers is diminishing due to rising unemployment? In areas such as north -west Durham the position is critical. It is estimated that the cuts will mean up to 1,000 more people unemployed by the end of March.


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Can the Minister tell us how the additional money that he has announced today will save the opportunities for those people to continue in training?

Mr. Howard : The hon. Lady is entirely wrong about the funding of training credits, which included a substantial element of new money. I am sure that she will find that the additional £120 million that I announced today will go a long way towards increasing the resources that the Durham training and enterprise council will have available to meet the training needs of the county.

Mr. Favell : Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall how the Labour party objected when the Government introduced the requirement for young people to report for training if they wished to claim income support- -in other words, income support was to be reduced if they did not train? Is he therefore disturbed by the present proposals that the youth training scheme should be abolished?

Mr. Howard : I never know quite what to make of the various suggestions that come from the Labour party about their proposals. Yesterday a new document was produced, which represented yet another change in their proposals. It is such a moving picture that I find it quite bewildering.

Labour Statistics

6. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what has been the number of people registered at the Bermondsey unemployment benefit office for each month from January 1990 until February 1991, inclusive.

Mr. Forth : The information requested for January 1990 to January 1991 can be obtained from the NOMIS--national on-line manpower information system--database in the House of Commons Library. February 1991 figures will be available on 14 March.

Mr. Hughes : The Minister must be too embarrassed to give the figures. Does he concede that there was a 21 per cent. increase in unemployment in the past six months in one of the four docklands constituencies, that there was a 25 per cent. increase in female unemployment, that there is one job vacancy in the local office for every 40 people unemployed and that that is the clearest evidence of the growing recession which is sweeping the south-east, let alone the rest of the country? In a part of the world where the housing service is grossly overstretched, where the health service is pushed to its limits and where the social services cannot cope, is it a sign of success when the Government now tell people that they will lose their jobs as well? Is that a successful economic record?

Mr. Forth : The hon. Gentleman is entitled to put that sort of interpretation upon what is happening if he so wishes, but I should have thought that it would be more realistic to point out that since he was elected in 1983 unemployment has dropped dramatically in his constituency, there are 100,000 fewer unemployed in London than in 1987 and unemployment in this country is lower than the average in the European Community, which I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman supports with great fervour. I might also mention the large number of imaginative programmes that my Department is making


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available to the hon. Gentleman's constituents and others to help them over a difficult period if they should lose their jobs. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has already pointed out, more than a quarter of those who lose their jobs come off the register within the first month, more than half leave it within three months and two thirds of those who lose their jobs are off the register within six months. That is a much more positive way of looking at it.

Perivale Skillcentre

7. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he has any plans to replace the training undertaken at the Perivale skillcentre ; and if he will make a statement.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Jackson) : The Perivale skill centre ceased to provide training in mid- 1989 because there was ample alternative provision in the west London area. I am satisfied that the position is unchanged and that training is available, as required, under my Department's schemes.

Mr. Greenway : Is my hon. Friend aware that the nearest skillcentre to Perivale is now in Twickenham, which is a long way from Ealing, where skill training has been provided for many years? Does he realise that there are many manufacturing jobs in Ealing, and that training is urgently required--on the spot, in Ealing?

Mr. Jackson : I shall look into what my hon. Friend has said. West London is, however, served by ample public transport networks and there are many providers of training in the west London area. There are 11 major providers of employment training there, with 1,055 trainees contracted locally, and a further 95 with national providers. There are no fewer than 57 major providers of youth training in the area, with some 2,700 young people receiving it. That, surely, is a considerable concentration of effort in west London.

Training

8. Mr. Patrick Thompson : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what was the total number of young people undergoing training on Government programmes in (a) 1978 and (b) 1990.

Mr. Jackson : In 1978 there were about 6,000 young people on Government training programmes, and in November 1990 there were about 350,000.

Mr. Thompson : I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Will he remind hon. Members, especially Opposition Members, that the youth training scheme introduced by the Government, which guarantees training for every 16 and 17 -year-old who needs it, has been an outstanding success and has helped many young people in Norwich? Will he confirm that extra money will be available in the coming year?

Mr. Jackson : The figures that I gave in my earlier answer speak for themselves--there has been a vast increase in youth training under the present Government. I will, however, give a few more figures. Since 1983, 2.7 million young people have benefited from YTS and YT. Currently some 350,000 are receiving training, of whom 88


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per cent. then go into jobs, further education or further training. According to the latest figures, 67 per cent. of those who complete the course acquire vocational qualifications. That is a considerable achievement on the part of the Government.

Mrs. Mahon : What advice would the Minister give Jason Hanson, a 17- year-old in my constituency who has become so desperate that he has written to the local press saying, "I have been made redundant twice and I am only 17"? The reason for those redundancies is the high interest rate imposed by the Government. Jason has tried to get on to a Government training scheme, but has been turned down because of his age ; he is also unable to draw any income.

Mr. Jackson : I am, of course, concerned about the individual case that the hon. Lady has raised, but the young man to whom she refers falls fairly within the guarantee of places on youth training that the Government offer.

Mr. Simon Coombs : Does my hon. Friend agree that far too many young people are still being put off youth training by Labour party propaganda? Will he take this opportunity to ensure that all young people are made well aware of what they will be missing if they do not grab the opportunity offered by this successful programme?

Mr. Jackson : My hon. Friend is quite right. We must repeatedly draw attention to the availability and advantages of YT. My hon. Friend is also absolutely right about the Opposition's attitude. They like to talk big about their commitment to training, but when they were in power they were useless at it, with only 6,000 on Government training programmes. No doubt it is that bad record that lies behind the continuing refusal of Opposition spokesmen to give any commitment to funding priorities for training, as compared with increases in consumption expenditure.

Mr. Fatchett : If the new training scheme is as successful as the Minister claims, will he explain to the House why he is prepared to preside over cuts that will reduce the amount of money spent per trainee and reduce the overall budget by more than £130 million over the next two years?

Mr. Jackson : The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Government are increasing expenditure on YT in the coming year by £38 million over the plan. We are the first Government in British history to provide a guarantee of training to any young person under the age of 18 who is not in full-time education or in work. With the training credits scheme, which is now being piloted, we shall be extending those facilities to young people who are in jobs.

Labour Statistics

9. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement about trends in unemployment in Barnet since 1983.

Mr. Forth : In June 1983 unemployment in the Barnet local authority district was 9,477 ; in June 1987, when my hon. Friend was elected to this House it was 9,633 ; but in January 1991 it was down to 7,144.

Mr. Marshall : Does my hon. Friend agree that that dramatic improvement is due to the fact that, since 1983,


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there has been an increase of 500,000 in the number of people in jobs in Greater London? Does he agree that that illustrates how the social market economy creates jobs? Does he further agree that minimum wage legislation would destroy all those jobs?

Mr. Forth : Yes. I add to what my hon. Friend has rightly said by pointing out that there are now 100,000 fewer people out of work in Greater London than there were in 1987. My hon. Friend is right to point out that some of the proposals that we believe may be emanating from the Opposition Benches--although we can never be quite sure--such as a minimum wage, levies, taxes and compulsion, would all conspire to increase the level of unemployment. The Opposition would be disgraced if they admitted to that.

10. Ms. Short : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on current levels of unemployment and the projections of future unemployment made by economic forecasters.

Mr. Howard : In January 1991 the level of unemployment, seasonally adjusted, in the United Kingdom was 1,888,500. In line with the practice of previous Governments, we do not forecast the level of unemployment.

Ms. Short : Will the Secretary of State admit that unemployment is rising rapidly--particularly in the south-east, where people face the tragedy of losing their job and then losing their house, which is a terrible experience for any family? Is the Secretary of State aware that many people in this country still have not recovered from the enormous growth in unemployment in the early 1980s? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman now apologise for the incompetence of his Government which has damaged the British economy and so many people's lives so badly?

Mr. Howard : I should have thought that the hon. Lady would point out that, in her constituency of Birmingham, Ladywood, unemployment was 10,319 when she was elected in June 1983 ; it was 8,892 in June 1987 ; last month it had come down to 5,940.

Mr. Ashby : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, in 1983, unemployment in my constituency was 16 per cent. whereas today it is 4.6 per cent. and that the number of jobs becoming available is increasing?

Mr. Howard : My hon. Friend's experience is characteristic of what has happened to the United Kingdom economy : we have 2 million more jobs now than when Labour left office in 1979.

Mr. McLeish : Does the Secretary of State agree that the £120 million announced for the unemployed is woefully inadequate when measured against the forecast of 2.5 million unemployed this year--the fastest rising unemployment rate in Europe--and a cut of £360 million in the ET budget? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman intend to introduce a temporary work programme for the unemployed?

Mr. Howard : It is no use Opposition spokesmen coming to the Dispatch Box and complaining about funding for training when the shadow Chancellor consistently refuses to make training one of the two


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immediate priorities on which Labour would increase spending. Opposition Members should have a word with the shadow Chancellor.

Mr. Simon Hughes : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : Points of order take up time. I have not heard anything out of order. What is it?

Mr. Hughes : There have been five questions about unemployment. In the answers to four of those, Ministers gave figures. Why were no figures at all given in reply to the question about inner London? Is that in order?

Mr. Speaker : I am not responsible for the answers that are given.

Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : The Secretary of State is now to be informed for the third time that the sector of the unemployed who need urgent help are those with special needs. He must be aware that training and enterprise councils are reducing the numbers of places for such people as a result of substantial cuts in their funding. Will he now reply to the question that was put to him from the Labour Front Bench by stating that the funds lost as a result of those cuts will be restored following the announcement that he made today?

Mr. Howard : I repeat that, as a result of their inclusion in the aim group, people with disabilities have higher priority for employment training than they have ever had. I hope very much that the additional £120 million that I announced today will help training and enterprise councils to make more provision for those with special needs.

Mrs. Maureen Hicks : Many unemployed people are hopeful that they will gain places in training schemes, or will secure jobs, as a result of attendance at the very successful Government-sponsored job clubs. Those who attend these clubs testify to their success. Will the Secretary of State consider providing, in addition to the benefits that are already available, assistance with the travelling expenses of those attending interviews?

Mr. Howard : I shall certainly consider my hon. Friend's request. She is quite right to draw attention to the success of job clubs. We plan to create up to 100,000 extra opportunities in job clubs and through the job interview guarantee scheme next year.

Training

11. Mr. Roy Hughes : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he has made any recent comparison of facilities available and the percentage of people trained in the United Kingdom and in Germany and France.

Mr. Howard : I visited France last month, and Germany last year, to look at their training arrangements. Despite the differences in approach, which make accurate statistical comparisons difficult, I found general agreement that successful competition in the 1990s will depend on employers' improving significantly the level of skill in their labour force.

Mr. Hughes : Does the Secretary of State recognise that Britain has an annual trading deficit of £15 billion to £16 billion and that many shrewd economic observers put this down to poor training facilities and the lack of skilled people? In these circumstances, and despite the sweetener


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that he has handed out today, is it not the economics of the lunatic asylum to contemplate the provision of £500 million for training over the next two years?

Mr. Howard : If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about the funding of our training programme, I am surprised that he did not welcome the very substantial additional funds that I announced today. We have in place the right training framework to ensure that our people will have the skills they need to compete effectively in the markets of the 1990s, and there is abundant evidence that our policies are working extremely effectively.


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