House of Commons Hansard Debates for 28 Feb 1991

Mr. Hunt : No, I will not. In a debate on agriculture, I would be prepared to discuss a great variety of subjects, including the whole question of pay in agriculture. But I have been going for 38 minutes and I want to complete my speech. I reiterate, however, that I am totally committed to the view that a healthy agriculture industry in Wales in absolutely vital for the future economic, social and environmental well- being of our country.

The rural initiative represents a shift of emphasis in rural policy. Last December, I announced the refocusing of the valleys initiative. For the next two years, I want the valleys programme to focus on partnership with the people. Several valleys communities will have the opportunity to put their own plans for revival in practice, Business in the Community will operate a private project to encourage employee volunteering and the South East Wales Arts Association will run an arts festival in the autumn of 1992, based on eight buildings renovated as part of the programme and timed to coincide with the great national garden festival in 1992. The urban programme has been a source of considerable investment over the years, both within the valleys communities and elsewhere in Wales. For 1991-92, I have been able to allocate nearly £37.9 million to the programme which, according to the local authorities, will result in the creation or safeguarding of 3,500 jobs. More than 65 per cent. of that has been allocated to projects aimed at economic regeneration, including £4.5 million for nursery factory provision, £3.5 milion for industrial infrastructure, almost £2.6 million for grants and loans to projects in commercial and industrial improvement and more than £1.2 million for tourism and tourist-related projects. Only last week, I was able to approve £2.4 million for a number of deserving economic projects throughout Wales.

Tourism is also an essential part of the Welsh economy. The Wales tourist board is determined to promote Wales as a major destination for tourism in conjunction with a number of other agencies and local authorities. That does not just take the form of marketing Wales as a place to take holidays. It can also take the form of direct financial assistance toward tourism projects. For example, since 1971 the Wales tourist board has provided £35 million towards 1,600 different tourism projects and I pay tribute to that work.

The total capital cost of those projects has been in excess of £180 million and as a consequence 7,200 jobs have been safeguarded or created. Perhaps the most prominent project ever to be supported by the Wales

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tourist board is Butlins Starcoast world at Pwllheli. That represents the largest ever investment in a single tourism project in Wales and I understand from Butlins that it is embarking on a recruitment programme for 1,000 people for the summer season.

Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : I am glad to hear that the Wales tourist board is making progress. However, could it not do even better if it was allowed to operate under its own title abroad and so encourage more foreign visitors to Wales? That would be a great advantage.

Mr. Hunt : Then Wales tourist board has objectives in several directions. It certainly wants to increase the number of visitors from the United Kingdom into Wales. It also wants to encourage visitors from abroad. As the hon. Gentleman may know, the WTB has just appointed an officer in the United States and it is working closely with the British Tourism Association to market Wales abroad. The WTB will be closely involved this year in the Cutty Sark tall ships race which is due to take place out of Milford Haven next July. That will be a wonderful opportunity and a super challenge to present Wales to the world and I am sure that it will be a tremendous triumph.

One of the key factors in equipping and sustaining our future economic growth will be our ability to provide our work force with the skills to enable them to compete in the international market place. The way to achieve that, as with so much else, is through partnership that involves Government, business, individuals and the wider community. That partnership should take place at the local level where the needs of employers and individuals are clearly defined. That is why, by setting up training and enterprise councils, we have given employers a major new opportunity to transform training in the communities to meet local needs. Our TEC network will be complete by the beginning of the next financial year which is well ahead of schedule and well before that in the rest of the United Kingdom.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment has announced increased resources for employment training. I am pleased to be able to announce today that there will be an additional amount of money for Wales of just over £8 million for our TECs. That is an increase on the original allocation of just over 15 per cent.

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : With regard to TECs, will the extra £8 million mean that no employment training or youth training places will be lost next year, that no training providers in Wales will go out of business and that no trainers will lose their jobs? The right hon. Gentleman referred to £8 million. Is that supplementary to the £120 million announced by the Secretary of State for Employment earlier this week?

Mr. Hunt : The £8 million is extra money for Wales, but forms part of the announcement about new resources made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. However, it is over and above the original budget allocated to TECs. The extra money will enable TECs to ensure that employment training continues to play its part in helping long-term unemployed people and those with special needs back to work.

Our training strategy is ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom. Our TECs are employer-led and locally based and they can identify with the areas they serve. We will

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give them the freedom to develop strategies for training and enterprise to meet the needs of their own areas. The TECs currently operating in Wales are already showing how, working in partnership with the community, they can develop individual approaches to the local labour markets.

I hope that I have said enough this afternoon to show clearly why I believe that the Welsh economy is so well placed to survive the present downturn and take advantage of the upturn as it arrives. Before I finish and before the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside--for whom I have great respect, which is why I think that he may attempt to blackwash what I have said today-- makes his contribution, I have a further series of announcements to make.

I am pleased to announce today my approval for financial support for continued development on nine projects : in north Wales, by Mita (UK) Ltd. at Bodelwyddan ; Kemitron UK Ltd. at Deeside, W. A. Turner at Flint and Label Research Ltd. at Wrexham ; and in south and west Wales by Kysor Europe Marketing Ltd. at Ystrad Mynach ; Ascom Telecommunications at St. Mellons ; Harris Pye (Holdings) Ltd. at Barry Dock ; A. M. K. Plastics Ltd. at Llantrisant, and Slimma (Wales) Ltd. at Cardigan, Lampeter, Fishguard and Swansea. Those projects are diverse and include, for example, the production of accessories for electrical systems, printing of labels for the pharmaceutical industry, car components and steel tube processing. The total investment is £30 million towards which I am pleased to put £5.25 million of taxpayers' money. The projects will create nearly 650 new jobs for Wales. I am delighted that the announcement is tangible evidence of companies' willingness and confidence to invest in Wales, and I am glad that the Welsh Office has been able to support the projects. I am confident of further forthcoming announcements in the coming months that will bring even more job opportunities to Wales.

It is always difficult for a community when its traditional industries and employers decline. However, we should not allow our concern for that to overshadow the prospects for the future. I remain convinced that the medium to long-term prospects are as good for Wales as they ever were, and I invite the House to agree with me. 5.56 pm

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : The Secretary of State for Wales began by referring to our brave soldiery in the Gulf. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman entirely, as do all hon. Members. The Secretary of State may not know that Francis Evans of Flint died in the Gulf. He was a REME lance corporal and a full-time soldier of courage and professionalism. I know his father, Ted Evans, and Francis was a superb son and a fine, professional and very brave soldier. He will be greatly missed in Flint and we pay tribute to what he did and what he was seeking to do.

The Secretary of State also referred to our late colleague Mr. Donald Coleman. He would have taken part in this debate had he been here and we would all have listened to him with great respect because he was a fine constituency Member.

At 3 pm today I was told of the loss of 238 steel jobs at British Steel at Shotton. I must protest about that appalling development, bearing in mind the devastating job losses that my constituency suffered during the 1980s. Why must those jobs be lost? Will the Secretary of State guarantee that no more jobs will be lost? When did he

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learn of those losses? I must express my anger at this development. It constitutes appalling treatment. My constituents at Shotton steelworks break records. They co-operate with demanning and make a great deal of money for the board of British Steel. They are continually increasing productivity. To sum up, anything that the company asks of my steel-working constituents, they deliver, but what have we had in return? An appalling decision, which I must protest about hearing in this honourable House. I repeat my question to the Secretary of State ; when did he know about the job losses?

Hon. Members : Answer.

Mr. Roy Hughes : Does my hon. Friend agree that it might appear to the House--it certainly appears this way to me--that it was deceitful of the Secretary of State not to make an announcement about that great loss of steel jobs? After all, the right hon. Gentleman is our representative, our spokesman, in the Cabinet.

Mr. Jones : My hon. Friend speaks with great authority on steel matters. In the absence of the Secretary of State coming to the Dispatch Box to answer any of my questions, I must assume that he did not know.

Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : What surprised me was the Secretary of State's peroration when he boasted about bringing 600 jobs to Wales. As soon as my hon. Friend rises, he talks about half that number of jobs being lost in one industry alone. It is disgusting that the right hon. Gentleman has refused to answer my hon Friend's questions.

Mr. Jones : I ask the right hon. Gentleman for any information that he can give me. I also ask him to receive seriously my deputation early next week when I hope that members of Alyn and Deeside council, Clwyd county council and the affected steelworkers may be able to see him. I look to him for his good offices and hope that he will enable me to meet the chairman of British Steel, Lord Scholey, when I shall be able to tell British Steel of my deep concern at these developments.

Mr. David Hunt : I do not want to turn this into a match in which we bat job losses against job increases. The increase of 650 jobs that I announced are directly supported by the Government's support of £5.1 million. I should like to make it clear that I shall be pleased to receive the hon. Gentleman's delegation, when we can discuss this announcement in greater detail. At the moment, however, I am unable to verify the exact number of jobs involved, although the hon. Gentleman is obviously quoting a figure that he has seen in some announcement.

Mr. Jones : I must move on in my speech, because many right hon. and hon. Members wish to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is clear both to me and to my right hon. and hon. Friends that we do not recognise the Wales about which the Secretary of State has spoken. It is for the right hon. Gentleman to listen to our worries. The right hon. Gentleman rattled the sabre of charge capping, but I challenge him to name one irresponsible local authority in Wales. I warmly welcome the 650 jobs that the nine projects that we have been promised will provide one day. I also

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welcome the £8 million for the training and enterprise councils. The Cynon valley cash is encouraging. However, as the right hon. Gentleman has announced some money for Cynon valley, why will he not meet the Heads of the Valleys Standing Conference? I urge him to do so.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells), I pay a sincere tribute to the president of the South Wales National Union of Mineworkers, Mr. Dutfield, who stands down today. He is greatly respected throughout Wales. He is a fourth generation miner, who has 30 years' experience of face-working himself. His commitment and integrity are compelling. However, I remind the Secretary of State of what has happened while Mr. Dutfield has been president. In 1985, there were 20 pits in south Wales, employing 20,000 men : today, there are only four pits and 2,000 men.

We have had our triumphs in Wales this year. Our technical triumphs include Ford and Bosch, and Toyota in my constituency. We have all welcomed the marvellous news of British Airways' planned expansion at Cardiff airport. I congratulate both the Welsh Office and the local authorities involved--both the county and the city authorities--on their work to achieve that. However, may I also congratulate the Welsh Development Agency and the Development Board for Rural Wales? I advise the Secretary of State firmly that those agencies were created by a Labour Government--often in the teeth of opposition from Conservative Members--[ Hon. Members :-- "They voted against."] Yes, there were votes on the matter and there were votes against those agencies. However, the economic life of Wales during the 1980s would have been a complete disaster without those agencies. I am glad that there are now science parks in Wales at Aberystwyth, Deeside, Bridgend, Swansea, Cardiff and Menai Bridge. They must form the future base of the Welsh economy.

The Welsh Office is entitled to sing about its successes, but it is short sighted of the Secretary of State to come here today and to imply that all is well. I shall put it this way :

"Service industry cannot substitute for manufacturing industry The decline in Britain's manufacturing base has continued This country does not give a high enough priority to manufacturing industry Industrial research and development has been growing at a slower pace than elsewhere."

Those are not my words : they are the words of the current chairman of Imperial Chemical Industries. Furthermore :

"The rumoured large rises in power prices will deal a savage blow to manufacturers Business is being left to carry the can" Manufacturers of steel, chemicals, paper and industrial gases may face increases in electricity costs of up to 25 per cent. Interest rates have been too high for too long. Those are not my views : they are the view of Sir Brian Corby, the president of the Confederation of British Industry.

The claims made by Conservative Ministers only two years ago that they had produced an "economic miracle" now look absurd. In the St. David's day debate two years ago, the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) said :

"Wales is experiencing a substantial fall in unemployment".--[ Official Report, 1 March 1989 ; Vol. 148, c. 306.]

The latest CBI "Welsh Industrial Trends Survey", which was published last month, reports that business confidence in Wales is experiencing its sharpest decline since the survey began in 1978. The Cardiff chamber of commerce and industry stated recently :

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"it is clear that future investment in plant, machinery and buildings--the last bastion of confidence in the near future--has finally succumbed and investment plans are almost universally being revised downwards".

In a memorable speech last year, my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) said that we must pay attention to indigenous Welsh companies, to the industry that is already here. He described--he derided--the supposed Conservative transformation because, as he said :

"we have only 6,000 miners but 60,000 bank employees."

With prescient words, my hon. Friend warned of difficulties if we build

"local economies on the shifting sands of the service sector".--[ Official Report, 1 March 1990 ; Vol. 168, c. 453-55.]

He was right. Today, the banks are shedding labour and we are losing steel and coal jobs. Indeed, the head of Barclays Bank, Sir John Quinton, who is not noted for his support for my party, has suggested that his bank will have to lose a large number of jobs. So is Lloyds. Indeed, Sir John Quinton himself said a few weeks ago that he feared a 1930s-scale problem in the economy. I hope that he is wrong.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot) said in this debate last year :

"We in Wales do not have immunity from the consequences of the Government's hideous and mounting economic problems."--[ Official Report, 1 March 1990; Vol. 168, c. 427.]

They were prophetic words indeed. My right hon. Friend was absolutely right. Even the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones) told in his speech last year of several companies which were on the critical list. He is on the critical list, too, but that is neither here nor there. He warned of a move from loss to liquidation. He warned that an overdose of interest rates might damage the economy. He was right--it has. Government policy errors have put major pressures on Welsh industry.

There is a disturbing trend in jobs. I want the Secretary of State to admit it. May I show him some headlines such as :

"Job losses average 200 a week."

That was a headline from the Western Mail, a daily newspaper in the Principality. Another such headline was :

"Dole total surges up to 100,000."

It is apparent that the worst cases are in Aberdare, Bangor, Caernarfon, Holyhead, Rhymney and parts of Pembrokeshire. In south Wales there have been closures, redundancies or announced redundancies AB Electronics, British Steel, Wolseley Electronics in Pontypridd, Mardy colliery, Deep Navigation Mine, the great company Hoover, the BBC and Harlech Television. Those are white collar and blue collar posts in basic industries and technology industries. The greatest losses are in mid Glamorgan, south Glamorgan, west Glamorgan and Gwent. We are losing and we have lost well- paid, real jobs which required training. They were jobs of status and the very jobs that create wealth. They were jobs for breadwinners and mortgage payers. I remind the House that the Conservatives have been in power for the past 12 years. Now the evidence of recession is all around us. Redundancies in Wales increased in the final quarter of last year by 43 per cent. on the previous year. Unemployment in Wales has risen for four successive months and for eight of the past nine months. Output in the Welsh economy fell by almost 2 per cent. in the third quarter of last year.

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In north Wales the story is similar. Brymbo steelworks has closed with the loss of 1,250 jobs. At Owens Corning and Remsdag jobs have been lost. At Castle Cement 200 jobs were lost. Perhaps 300 jobs at the Laura Ashley clothing company will be lost. At G-Plan Furniture 120 jobs will be lost, and at Style Furniture 60 jobs will be lost. More than 100 jobs will be lost at Pilkington. There will be 70 job losses at J.C.B. Axles and Gearboxes and 70 at Marchwiel creamery. Further west, jobs will be lost at Austin Taylor Telecommunications and Crosville bus company.

North-east Wales has lost more than 2,000 jobs in a short time. I conclude that the new economy that the Government helped to build is not yet sufficiently robust and is suffering redundancies in high technology and manufacturing industry. My excellent local authority of Alyn and Deeside published a report this week which said, even before it knew about the redundancies at Shotton :

"there are substantial deep seated structural inadequacies within the local economy of North East Clwyd and Deeside in particular, and demonstrate that there is still a continuing need for intervention by the Government, its agencies and the European Commission to help to protect, rebuild and restructure the local economy because it has not yet developed the intrinsic strength to successfully complete these tasks on its own."

Of course it has not. The economy will need all the assistance of the Welsh Office and all the agencies at its disposal as well as all the assistance that local authorities can give.

I have expressed my anger about Shotton. I counsel the Secretary of State, in the light of the evidence that I have given and the latest redundancies at Shotton, not to issue news releases entitled : "Brighter future for North Wales economy, says David Hunt." Such notices are misjudged. The Secretary of State must have a finer sense of what is happening in Wales than to make crudely optimistic statements as he did today. It would be far better if he told us other things and said, "We look to you to give us assistance. I acknowledge that there are defects."

It is clear to all of us that the redundancies and the shake-out will continue for some time yet. The deep recession might, with bad luck, be even worse than we expect. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent was right in his speech last year and so was my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. Job losses of such quality and in such amounts are serious. They denude our manufacturing, wealth-creating base. The Government's economic mismanagement is undermining the hard- fought, indeed, brilliant gains of inward investment. It is hurrah' for Sharp, Brother, Toyota, Ford and Bosch. That is well done. But it is also goodbye to Brymbo, south Wales collieries, Castle Cement and the Hoover plant jobs at Merthyr. It is serious.

I remind the Secretary of State of the recession in the construction industry. The Building Federation in Wales warns that 4, 000 jobs could be lost in Wales. Its state of trade survey is the worst for 10 years. In response to a parliamentary question, I was told, incredibly, that only nine of Wales's 37 district councils made new housing starts in 1990. Such building is the best spur to the construction industry. No starts were made in Blaenau Gwent, Cynon Valley, Islwyn, Lliw Valley, Merthyr Tydfil, Neath, Newport, Rhondda, Rhymney, Swansea or Torfaen. That is incredible.

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Homelessness is not exclusive to the great cities. It is in every town and larger village in Wales. It is a horrendous feature of Welsh life. The waiting lists are extensive. It is for the Government to solve the problem because the Government created the problem and they have been in office since 1979.

It is so wounding to families when they cannot find affordable tenancies. Mortgage rates are sky high. They cannot rent homes from their local council. The problem is the Government's fault and the Government should implement policies to deal with it urgently. The fact that so many of our young people are sleeping out in our towns and villages in Wales, even in the coldest weather, is a scar on our communities. It reflects nothing but ill on the Government. The Government, having created unemployment, are abandoning the unemployed. They are cutting their training budget and putting hundreds of employment training and youth training scheme places in Wales at risk. They are putting training providers out of business and closing training programmes. I want the cuts to be reversed. The employment training centre at Pentre in Deeside in my constituency will close at the end of March with a loss of nine full-time jobs and 115 ET training places.

In the north-east Wales area alone, 700 ET places are to be axed, a cut of over 40 per cent., and the 17 operating training organisations will be reduced to nine. Community Activities and Training in Ogmore--CATO--in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) should be allowed to continue. I recently accompanied my hon. Friend to see the Secretary of State, who was kind enough to see us. We argued for the continued existence of CATO. My hon. Friend made out an excellent case for CATO, which has a good track record. It has a farm, it assists those who need adult education and it serves an area which has lost its collieries. It is a fine organisation which should remain intact. Following a ministerial visit, it was given a good bill of health, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore has given CATO good leadership. I must refer to the predicament in Ferndale of the Ferndale-Rhondda home improvement service. Although it is instructive and has a Rhondda reputation, it fears the loss of staff, perhaps 15 of 33. It deals annually with perhaps 50 trainees and it does only good. It helps pensioners, providing them with new floors and windows. It rectifies, for example, damage done by frozen water pipes. It is currently helping an 87-year-old blind resident and aims to rewire a terrace of homes in Ferndale. It is professionally successful, socially necessary and economically beneficial. Rather than going out of business, it should not be at risk in any way.

The Observer on Sunday reported that 6,000 experts who have been training the unemployed face redundancy next month. That cannot be right. As Britain's unemployment rises, why put 6,000 trainers out of work? Is it wrong and poor government. It is tragic that Britain should be advancing-- rather than use the word "advancing", I should say "reversing"--in that way, and I urge the Secretary of State to fight in Cabinet to rectify that wrong. Government expenditure on regional

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preferential assistance to industry has been cut. That must be labelled a foolish policy. Welsh Office spending is to be cut by 35 per cent. in real terms over the next three years.

My hon. Friends and I say that the injustice of Government policy has found no better expression than in the poll tax, which is unfair, unpopular and inefficient. It is clear from experience that the inefficiencies, the cost and the waste of the poll tax are multiplying rather than diminishing with time.

I find, talking to professionals, that the poll tax is difficult and costly to collect. In Alyn and Deeside alone, there have been more than 27,000 changes in the poll tax register since April. About 25 per cent. of staff time in the poll tax section is occupied with the registration process. The system costs £9.95 per charge payer in Alyn and Deeside.

Labour policy for a system of modern rates is clear. The same cannot be said of the Government. They are in a mess on the poll tax and the Secretary of State for the Environment is said to be "fretting at the poll tax muddle"

according to an "unnamed senior Tory MP" quoted in The Sunday Times last weekend. According to that paper, he said :

"We are totally at sea. Ask half a dozen MPs what we should do and you get totally different answers."

What is the position of the Secretary of State for Wales? As Minister for Local Government, he said in July 1989 :

"I welcome the community charge system, to which I was committed at the last election and to which I remain committed".--[ Official Report , 25 July 1989 ; Vol. 157, c. 900.]

In March 1990, only a year ago, the right hon. Gentleman said : "the community charge is a much fairer and simpler system".--[ Official Report , 21 March 1990 ; Vol. 169, c. 1109.]

Tell that to the marines. We do not believe it.

Without a doubt, the Conservative party is divided over the poll tax issue and hon. Members who represent marginal seats know that it is an electoral albatross. At the same time, the Government do not seem willing or able to admit what everyone else has known for years--that the poll tax is a colossal, costly criminal blunder and that the only way forward is to abolish it. That we shall do. The Secretary of State for Wales earned his promotion to the Cabinet for the efficient and enthusiastic manner in which he embraced and proposed the poll tax, improved its bite and defended it. So I look forward with interest to hearing him explain, as he surely will, why the poll tax must be abolished. I predict that soon the Minister who perfected the poll tax, tooled it up and oiled it to perfection will be disowning it for reasons not of conversion but of potential, hoped-for electoral gain.

The poll tax is destroying local government, so difficult is it to administer and collect. It has not been accepted or acknowledged by the people of Wales, because they know that it is unfair and unjust. At every electoral opportunity the people of Wales have rejected it, and that goes for Euro-elections, county elections and parliamentary by-elections. It has been rejected with contempt in Wales. Today, more than ever, we must think about the future and Wales--the whole of Britain--has a clear choice. Either we build a strong, competitive, high-skill economy or we resign ourselves to becoming a low-paid, second-rate economy with all the implications that that has for unemployment, the standard of public services and our quality of life.

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A Labour Government will be elected and, when that happens, we shall address ourselves to the problems of the people of Wales. Several Hon. Members rose--

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : Order. A large number of hon. Members wish to take part in the debate. Brief speeches will avoid disappointment.

6.27 pm

Mr. Ian Grist (Cardiff, Central :) The speech of the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) was revealing. He urged us to face up to what he called reality and we were assured that the policy of the Labour party towards rates was clear. He then passed to another subject without explaining his party's policy. Presumably it would take us back to where we started, with revaluation thrown in. If so, people would be in for a nasty surprise.

The hon. Gentleman's speech was typical of the activities of the last Labour Government. Indeed, it is almost 17 years to the day that the hon. Members for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas), for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) and I came into the House, following the election of 28 February 1974. The Labour party then had to wait till the October to get something like a workable majority, after which that Government produced the Welsh Development Agency. The wording of the measure that introduced the WDA was all part of the idea of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) for an expansion of state power. It was in line with the proposed nationalisation of port-related activities, which Mr. John Mackintosh and Mr. Brian Walden managed to overcome only by refusing to support their then party.

I remember that period well. It was only after losing constituencies such as Ashfield in the most catastrophic by-election reverses that Labour lost its ideological edge and had to go to the IMF. That was after the hon. Member for Merthyr-Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) had told Welsh councils to spend, spend, spend. They did, but things came to a grinding halt when the A470 reached Taff's Well, and it remained there until we were elected in 1979. The Labour Government had knocked all capital expenditure on the head. They were bust and had to creep around asking to be bailed out. Labour could not understand mathematics and the simple facts that he who spends too much goes bust, and that there is no magic source of money. It the Opposition were to cost their current proposals they would see that they would be back to the IMF very quickly, oil or no oil.

The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside welcomed a host of modern companies. He compared them with three older forms of company and could not see that the new companies were essential for the end of this century and the beginning of the next. One might be nostalgic about older companies, but out-of-date methods have bedevilled Wales. The slowness of the Labour party in backing Monty Finniston to modernise our steel industry gave us much later heartache. We now have a profitable and, therefore, safe steel industry rather than the one that the right hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot) saw closing in his constituency. The closure of the East Moors

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plant in Cardiff has left the shadow of unemployment over older people in my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael).

The Opposition have the extraordinary idea that if they do not like the game they can change the system. The hon. Member for Caernarfon may part company with me on that. When the Labour Government could not put through some of their more ideological ideas on the economy, they made a pledge about devolution and assemblies in Wales and Scotland. We spent a great deal of time on the two relevant Bills. They could not keep matters to one Bill because they lost the first vote. We were occupied with that for many nights, but that was helpful to a Government who could not get anything else through. However, in the end devolution also failed. There was a pledge for a referendum and it was on that that they crashed so badly in 1979. Now the Opposition say that they will not have a referendum but that devolution will be contained in their manifesto. It was in their 1974 manifesto, so I cannot see the difference.

The Opposition bleat about democracy, but do not seem prepared to have a referendum on devolution. However, there is little chance of their winning the next election. They never learn. They underestimate the necessity to reduce and keep down inflation. The right hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent served in a Government who presided over 16 per cent. average inflation. That rotted savings, because interest rates were lower than the loss in the value of money. There was a negative interest rate. The right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) knows that, and he also knows that it was quite unpardonable because it robbed people who were thrifty enough to save for their old age.

This is my first speech from the Back Benches for about three years. It was a privilege to serve in the Welsh Office and it was a joy to meet many people throughout Wales, such as chairmen of local authorities or health authorities and people in voluntary service or housing associations. They underlined the fact that in Wales people at local level are all trying to work together. That gives us a great advantage over some parts of England, which seem to be in a permanent state of strife. I pay tribute to the staff who worked for me in the Welsh Office. They were greatly respected and looked upon as friends by the groups with which they had dealings. People in health and social services and housing knew personally those who were carrying out the building and administration in Wales. Those dedicated people were mostly Welsh or had chosen to work in the Welsh Office. The Secretary of State gave many statistics about the health service. Such statistics can be rolled out to prove that there are no cuts, but I used to get rather fed up with that claim, because it is patently untrue. The Opposition should welcome the work of the Health Promotion Authority for Wales in promoting health rather than dealing with the consequences of ill health. We all have a part to play in that. They should welcome the publication of the agenda for action which shows the way forward for the administration of the health service.

Targets have been given to administrators and doctors and to all of us in our various roles to further the health of the people of Wales which, for a variety of reasons, has not been good. By the end of the century we could be among the healthiest people in Europe. Wales is in the lead

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with its mental handicap and mental illness strategy, not just in the United Kingdom but in Europe. We have set a standard of which we can be proud.

Dr. Kim Howells : I agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman says about Wales's record on looking after patients who have been in long-stay mental hospitals. Is he satisfied with the funds that have been set aside for the care of long-stay mental health patients who are released from the hospitals into the community ? I am sure he agrees that this issue is a great source of worry to many hon. Members.

Mr. Grist : The hon. Gentleman would be reassured if he appreciated that people will not be released from mental hospitals or homes unless they are capable of dealing with their new environment, in which they will need strong support and help. I hope that they will be close to their homes so that relatives and friends will be able easily to meet them. Because of the distances, that has a real meaning in places such as north Wales. They will be released only if funds are available to make that possible.

Joint planning is essential. One of the advantages of the Welsh Office is that it is able to co-ordinate housing, social services and the health service. In that context, we were disappointed by the postponement of the community care proposals. We in Wales are a little more advanced than the people in England and more capable of putting such proposals into operation. However, the speed with which we could have put them into operation would have tripped us, even in Wales, and the breathing space may have given us a good chance to put matters in order before the whistle is blown for the start. It was essential for England to have a delay.

The slogan that our intent is to add years to life and, more important, life to years is a good one. It is not just a matter of lengthening life, which is a problem that western countries now enjoy and endure. It has two sides to it, because it is essential to add life to years. We can all agree on that.

Because the Welsh Office is multi-functional, it can operate effectively in a co-ordinated way. For instance, the last Welsh house condition survey was extremely encouraging and showed the improvement in the aged housing stock compared to similar property in most of the United Kingdom. At last, we are getting on top of the problems of those rows of dilapidated former coal board houses. Although enormous sums have been spent--some £900 million--on repair and improvement of council and private housing, some people, sadly, still did not receive grants, largely because certain local authorities were less efficient than others in ensuring that their citizens knew their rights and that the money flowed where it was most needed. When I was first in the Welsh Office, I was invited to look at housing in Islwyn. I agreed, firmly believing, in my ignorance, that I would be shown all the problems of that area, and told myself, "Steel yourself for a difficult day." In fact, it was the reverse : I was taken to see what the local authority was doing with the various Government schemes and what a tremendous fist it was making of those schemes. When the house condition survey was published,

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only 3 per cent. of its housing was shown to be unfit. That is the lowest percentage of all the local authorities in Wales.

Mr. Gareth Wardell : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a major step forward could be made by expanding agency schemes whereby, for old people in particular, the contract for improving property is made not between the builder and the client but between the housing association or local authority and the builder? That would eradicate the problems and worries that elderly people frequently have with so-called cowboy builders.

Mr. Grist : Yes, that is Government policy. TIPAS and other agencies exist for that purpose. Nobody wants to encourage cowboy builders, who have been a blight on some old people. The new system, which is designed uniquely for Wales, ensures that the poorest people--who experienced difficulty in finding the necessary contribution under the old scheme and were sometimes missed--can get a 100 per cent. grant. That will be one of the defences against cowboy builders. A properly costed proposal must be presented and approved before the money is released, so the new scheme should protect people more effectively than the old one.

Another reason why it will be better is that those who will benefit from the increased value of their homes should make a greater contribution. I was always surprised that people received a present of a lump sum of money from the taxpayer and ended up with a house, the capital value of which had increased. Such people received a double present. Many of my constituents enjoyed such a gift because, of the 12,500 houses approved under the enveloping scheme, my constituency had the most.

Hon. Members who went on the Rhondda, West by-election campaign in the mid- sixties will remember people saying, "Why on earth are they building that estate up in the mountain? Nobody will want to live there, it is too cold and windy." All those who criticised the council then were right. It has been an utterly cataclysmic disaster for Penrhys in the Rhondda. Fortunately, through the priority estates project, we are spending many millions of pounds to put it right. I welcome the recognition of housing difficulties that were caused in the past.

I draw the attention of hon. Members to two issues that highlight the future of Wales. First, the Cardiff bay proposal, which will illumine the capital city and will reflect on the whole of south Wales, it should be welcomed by all those who have an interest in the area, as it will beautify part of the west of the country. All hon. Members will recognise that Wales, together with Portugal, the Western Isles and Ireland, has the difficulty of being slightly on the fringe of the EEC. Those who live in the hub of the EEC will enjoy the most heat, if I may draw an analogy between the EEC and the sun.

Secondly, we should welcome the Ebbw Vale garden festival. It will show many people who did not already realise it how beautiful the valleys are, how close and well connected they are to the midlands and the south-east, and what a tremendous welcome companies would receive if they brought their business to the valleys. At the head of the valleys, in the Ebbw Vale garden festival and in the development of Cardiff bay, Wales has something going for it.

I have two worries. First, I agree with the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside in some respects. For some time,

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