House of Commons Hansard Debates for 4 Mar 1991

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principally those who are over 70, because, although their gross income is considerable, their special circumstances mean that they come off rather badly?

Miss Widdecombe : As I said in a reply a short while ago, we are aware of the need to target pensioners with special needs, particularly those in an age group in which they could not take advantage of occupational pension schemes. We also wish to target those whose savings were completely destroyed by high inflation during the Labour Administration of the 1970s. In comparison with Europe, we come out well on pensions. A far higher number of pensioners own homes and other assets than is generally the case in the rest of Europe.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : Is it not true that, as a result of the Government's policy of paying low pensions, pensioners want higher and higher interest rates? Is it not incongruous that pensioners' interests are the direct reverse of the interests of the Government's economic strategy?

Miss Widdecombe : As the value of pensioners' income has risen 31 per cent. under this Government, it is a little extraordinary to talk about low pensions. Pensions have kept pace with inflation and we have kept our promises to pensioners to ensure that the value of their benefits is preserved. However, we have encouraged a great deal of other pensioners' income, such as occupational pensions and personal pensions. We believe that through that encouragement, pensioners are now able better to provide for themselves while we concentrate on those who cannot do so. Only certain forms of savings will be wholly dependent on high interest rates, which are not in the general interest of the economy. I do not believe that pensioners in the hon. Gentleman's constituency would, in general, want high interest rates.

Mr. David Shaw : Does my hon. Friend agree that the increased number of pensioners owning homes and other assets has resulted in more pensioners being able to live off their savings in recent years than there were in 1979? Page 18 of the social security expenditure report shows that, in 1979, there was 20 per cent. more reliance by pensioners living off their earnings, with the result that many of them were probably unable to retire.

Miss Widdecombe : My hon. Friend's analysis is right. We have already heard that the value of savings has doubled. The value of income has gone up by 31 per cent. Savings take many forms and the rapid growth in occupational pensions and in the greater provision that pensioners can make for themselves allows them to retire. That is why there are now more retirements at an earlier age and less pressure on people to continue to work, than under the Labour Government of the 1970s.

Severe Weather Payments

13. Mrs. Margaret Ewing : To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security if he will make a statement on the number of applications for severe weather payments which have been submitted since 7 February ; and how many have been granted.

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Mr. Scott : Information regarding the number of claims submitted in February, and the number of payments made is not yet available, but will be placed in the Library as soon as it is.

Mrs. Ewing : Does not the Minister understand that the fact that such information is not yet available shows the shambles that exists in relation to that form of payment? The retrospective nature of those payments is inadequate because people need to be able to turn up the heat at the time of the crisis, not worry about whether they will receive the money. The £6 referred to pays for one bar of an electric fire for fewer than 100 hours. Is it not time that an automatic and continuous provision was introduced?

Mr. Scott : This is exceptional help for use in special cold weather circumstances--a top-up scheme. The income support rates already include provision for heating costs throughout the year. During the recent cold snap, fuel companies made it clear that vulnerable people should feel free to turn up their heating and that companies would be prepared to consider making arrangements for phased payments if bills turned out to be high. In practice, we have had only a short spell of cold weather so far this winter.

Invalid Care Allowance

15. Mr. David Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security how many women are in receipt of invalid care allowance ; and what was the comparable figure for 1978-79.

Mr. Scott : There were 110,100 women receiving invalid care allowance on 31 January 1991 compared with 3,600 in January 1981, the earliest year for which such information is available.

Mr. Evans : Does my right hon. Friend agree that spending has gone up from £4 million to £200 million during the past 10 years? Does he agree that, once again, the Government are concerned with hot money, whereas the Opposition are concerned with hot air?

Mr. Scott : I very much agree with my hon. Friend. This is an excellent benefit that delivers good levels of care to severely disabled people.

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

Disablement Officers

28. Sir David Price : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, whether there are any proposals to fund the employment of a disablement officer for every diocese.

Mr. Michael Alison (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners) : The Commissioners are not aware of any such proposals. The General Synod's board for social responsibility regularly considers issues involving the disabled. Each diocese has a social responsibility adviser.

Sir David Price : Is my right hon. Friend aware that despite what he said, access for people in wheelchairs is difficult or impossible in a significant number of Anglican churches and that some vicars and bishops are singularly negative in their attitude towards trying to solve this problem?

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Mr. Alison : I am aware of the difficulties to which my hon. Friend refers. He may not be aware that more than half our Anglican church buildings are more than 500 years old, which is the starting point of the difficulties involved in ensuring easy access. I am glad to say that all new parish churches are advised to provide access for the disabled. Having been in touch with the rector, I am glad to be able to report that access will be provided at St. James, Piccadilly for the disabled visitor in the foreseeable future.

Mr. Alfred Morris : Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are examples of excellence in terms of access to church buildings? Can we assume that he will do all that he can, in further consultation with those who can help, to lift the general standard up to that of the existing best?

Mr. Alison : Certainly it is the wish of dioceses and parishes to do everything possible to improve access for the disabled. All new churches are advised to provide easy access for the disabled. I repeat the point that I made to my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price) that many Church of England churches are more than 500 years old. Their early architectural design was not intended to accommodate wheelchairs and other such aids for the disabled, even if the wheel had been heard of in those times.

Diocesan Boards of Education

29. Mr. Frank Field : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement on the revenue implications of the Diocesan Boards of Education Measure.

Mr. Alison : This is not a matter for the Church Commissioners, but I understand that the Measure is not expected to have any revenue implications.

Mr. Field : Does the Commissioner accept that, while the Measure may not have revenue implications, it has other effects? The Measure gives the diocese greater power to direct Church schools than local authorities have to direct state schools. The House would take a dim view if any diocese tried to prevent Church schools from expanding their numbers.

Mr. Alison : The hon. Gentleman will know that some of his reservations have been recorded in the ecclesiastical committee's draft report on the Measure. I am hopeful that, when the Measure is introduced in another place, the bishop who introduces it will address himself to the hon. Gentleman's anxieties and will, I hope, reassure him about them.

Archbishop of Canterbury

30. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what will be the salary and perquisites of the next Archbishop of Canterbury ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Alison : The stipend for the next Archbishop of Canterbury will be about £41,000 a year. As is the case for all diocesan bishops, he will be provided with rent-free accommodation and an official car.

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Mr. Greenway : Will my right hon. Friend wish the incoming archbishop every success and happiness in the important task that he is taking on? Will he invite him to dissociate himself immediately from the remarks made by the Bishop of Durham at the weekend and to express strong support for a proper victory parade and service of thanksgiving for success in the Gulf?

Mr. Alison : I do not think that Dr. Carey will be able to make a formal statement on such matters before his official enthronement in mid- April. Meanwhile, I note that at least two diocesan bishops--the Bishops of Chester and Peterborough--have dissociated themselves in the most robust terms from the comments by the Bishop of Durham and have expressed the hope that there should be such a celebration.

Redundant Churches Fund

31. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what is the budget of the redundant churches fund.

Mr. Alison : The maximum budget for the five years beginning on 1 April 1989 is £12.4 million.

Mr. Marshall : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the number of redundant and half-empty churches underlines the need for a more positive message to come from the Church in the 1990s than we heard in the 1980s?

Mr. Alison : I hope that the leadership of the new Archbishop of Canterbury, the decade of evangelism, and the striking growth in independent, charismatic, Pentecostal and Afro-Asian churches will register a significant growth in the next 10 years.

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION

Smoking

32. Mr. Amos : To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, representing the House of Commons Commission, what progress has been made in implementing a no-smoking policy for the protection of the Commission's employees against passive smoking.

Mr. A. J. Beith (On behalf of the House of Commons Commissioners) : No-smoking areas have already been established in the Department of the Library. Their designation in other areas occupied solely by staff employed by the House of Commons Commission is a matter for individual heads of department, who are understood to be willing to establish no-smoking areas where accommodation will allow and where there is evidence of sufficient demand. The co-ordination of policy in this respect is initially a matter for the House of Commons Whitley committee.

Mr. Amos : I am grateful for that reply, but could the hon. Gentleman give me some idea when those people who want to eat and work in a smoke-free environment can do so, bearing in mind that passive smoking increases the chance of lung cancer by between 10 and 30 per cent.? People have the right to eat and work in a smoke-free environment.

Mr. Beith : I fully share the hon. Gentleman's view. Responsibility for such matters extends beyond the House

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of Commons Commission which must have regard only for the staff whom it employs. So far, I am not aware that staff have asked for such facilities but not been given them. The provision of such facilities in areas occupied by Members' staff and Members themselves falls within the remit of the Services Committee.

Mr. Harris : Will the hon. Gentleman have a word with the Chairman of the Services Committee about refreshment facilities for Members? Many of us find it tiresome, to put it mildly, that smoking continues in the Members' Tea Room. Dare I say that a certain hon. Lady from the Opposition Benches, who shall remain nameless and who is not here now, persists in smoking small and acrid cigars in the confined space of the Members' Cafeteria.

Mr. Beith : These are clearly matters for the Services Committee. I have long used the section of the Tea Room which I understood to be a no- smoking area.

Mr. Paice : Will the hon. Gentleman also remember that just as people should have the choice of being where smoking is not allowed, other people should be allowed to exercise the right to smoke? Whatever one's individual feeling on the subject, the principle of choice should be paramount. Both groups of people should have equal opportunities in this place.

Mr. Beith : I have long held to the John Stuart Mill principle that the exercise of liberty should not interfere with the liberty of others. The House of Commons Commission tries to have regard to the needs of both groups within its staff.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Brian Wilson. [ Hon. Members :-- "Not here".] Order. We need to go back to the questions on social security. Mr. Richard Page. Mr. John Wilkinson. Sir Marcus Fox. Mr. Anthony Steen. Mr. Kenneth Hind. They are not here. Mr. James Paice.

SOCIAL SECURITY

Child Maintenance

21. Mr. Paice : To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what proportion of a parent's gross income is estimated to be payable in maintenance under the proposals outlined in the White Paper "Children Come First."

Mr. Jack : The proportion will vary according to the individual circumstances of each case. However, in most cases maintenance payments will represent no more than about a quarter--at most a third--of an absent parent's net income and even less of gross income--nearer one fifth.

Mr. Paice : May I thank my hon. Friend for that answer and stress to him the importance that many people attach to the fact that parents, of whichever sex, cannot forgo the responsibilities of parenthood? Does my hon. Friend agree that the courts should have the power to attach whatever proportion of earnings is appropriate to support whatever family has been left behind by the absent parent?

Mr. Jack : I welcome the spirit and content of my hon. Friend's remarks, but I must correct him slightly on matters of fact. One of the objectives of the Child Support

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Bill, which is being introduced in another place, is to bring under one roof all matters concerning the collection of maintenance, ultimately by 1996. It also aims to remove some of the more costly parts of present maintenance recovery operations from the courts and that is why we plan to establish a child support agency that will do just that job on a consistent and inexpensive basis.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Satellite Television

35. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to improve further the availability of satellite television in the Palace of Westminster.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John MacGregor) : I am seeking to ensure that the satellite television viewing facilities provided during the Gulf conflict will continue to be available to Members. Other improvements must await the outcome of our consideration of last year's report from the Services Committee on computer services for Members.

Mr. Coombs : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. He will be aware that Cable News Network, an American service, has been provided to the House and the other place since the outbreak of hostilities in the Gulf. Does he agree that that sets a good precedent and that right hon. and hon. Members want to see not only American news, but a British- based news service? On that basis, is my right hon. Friend able to say whether he has yet responded to the offer made on 17 January by British Sky Broadcasting to provide a British, 24-hour news service to the Palace on a free basis?

Mr. MacGregor : There are two issues involved--the provision of some television viewing, which was available during the Gulf conflict in Interview Room J and the provision for all Members. The Services Committee has taken a positive attitude to the provision of satellite television in the House, particularly in Members' own rooms. It has recommended, as a matter of urgency, that the type and capacity of the cable needed to supply the long-term needs of the House should be identified. That is what we are in the process of doing.

On the provision of some television available to Members, we must decide exactly on which television supply in relation to the kind of facilities we were providing in Interview Room J. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee took the view earlier that it would not be right to accept free offers from individual companies.

Mr. Ray Powell : Can the Leader of the House explain whether it would be possible for the Government to consider acquiring the lease of the London county council building opposite the House for a short term? The requirements for television facilities, Members' accommodation, a children's creche and everything else could be adequately covered if the Government considered acquiring such a short-term lease on that building.

Mr. MacGregor : I do not think we need that building to provide satellite television, the problem is the provision of cable and we are considering that and the cost thereof.

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On space for the House, the hon. Gentleman will be especially aware that phases I and II of the Bridge street site are being pursued. I hope that Bridge street phase I will be complete by the end of the recess.

Recycled Stationery

36. Mr. Rathbone : To ask the Lord President of the Council when House of Commons writing paper and envelopes made from recycled paper will be made generally available to hon. Members.

Mr. MacGregor : A limited quantity of recycled writing paper and envelopes was ordered from HMSO on an experimental basis and has been available for issue to hon. Members from the Serjeant at Arms' stores since October last year. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee will be considering the results of the experiment before Easter.

Mr. Rathbone : My right hon. Friend will be aware that we knew that, but is he aware that I was hoping that he would encourage bringing forward the date when that paper will be readily available, partly because it gives a good lead to others in the country and partly because of the practical fact that such paper happens to work much better in modern machines?

Mr. MacGregor : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to that point. I understand that, so far, 95 hon. Members have requested and been issued with recycled writing paper and envelopes. I was not in this post when the experiment was introduced, and I must confess that I was not aware that that paper was available. Since my hon. Friend tabled his question, I have examined that paper and it is very good. I am therefore happy to endorse what he said.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : Will the right hon. Gentleman use it before Easter?

Mr. MacGregor : Yes, before Easter. The experiment will be reviewed before Easter, which is very soon, so I hope that we shall be able to reach conclusions before long.

European Standing Committees

37. Mr. Teddy Taylor : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the operation of the European Standing Committees.

38. Mr. Spearing : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement concerning the operation of Standing Committees considering draft legislation or other documents originating from the European Community.

Mr. MacGregor : There have now been five debates in the European Standing Committees, three in Committee A and two in Committee B. A number of suggestions have been made to me on ways in which the operation of the Committees can be improved and I have taken steps to act on some of them, for example by giving Committee members more notice of meetings wherever possible.

Mr. Taylor : Can the Leader of the House explain why one Standing Committee has not met on three occasions in the past four weeks when there are urgent issues which the Select Committee asked us to consider? As one issue is the

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report on export rebates, is not it a matter of huge urgency since the European Community will clearly break its legal limits? Is not it sad that when there are obvious and growing strong feelings in the House about smoking, the Committee is not even able to express a view on the fact that British taxpayers and others will contribute £900 million this year simply to dump high-tar tobacco on the third world and eastern Europe?

Mr. MacGregor : The tobacco issue has been raised many times in the House. On the procedure point that my hon. Friend raises, he will know that we endeavour to ensure that Standing Committees, as indeed the House, whenever recommended, discuss those issues in good time, normally before the European Council of Ministers takes decisions. Quite often, an item that is recommended for debate may not be right for a proper discussion because of the way in which progress has been made in the European Community. We endeavour to ensure that Committees debate such issues well before decisions are taken.

Mr. Spearing : Does the Leader of the House agree that some difficulties at least have been caused by Ministers' actions, the timetable of the European Council, and the nature of the proposals? Does he agree also that, as some documents now going into Committee are of great significance, for example the MacSharry proposals on the common agricultural policy, a matter that was not discussed in previous debates might be, for instance, the possible extension of a Committee session, as indeed was possible in one and a half hours on the Floor of the House, if the matter was of such importance and the attendance was such that the Chairman thought that there should be a carry-over motion? In particular, I refer to the forthcoming important debate on the common agricultural policy.

Mr. MacGregor : As I have said before, we need to review how Standing Committees are operating. Perhaps I shall wish to present specific proposals for change from time to time. We need to see how it goes, but I shall certainly bear the hon. Gentleman's suggestion in mind.

Dr. Cunningham : The House has debated Standing Committees on two occasions. The Government must be breathing a sigh of relief that they did not proceed with their original proposal to have three of them, especially as Ministers seem to be getting the runaround from the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) and from my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing). Just because Ministers are in difficulties, that is no excuse for saying, "We are going to have yet more changes in Standing Committees." If the Leader of the House envisages further changes will he ensure that they are published and that the House has a chance to consider them properly before they are put in place?

Mr. MacGregor : I have made it clear throughout that I am prepared to look at short-term changes and that we shall certainly have a review at the end of the summer. Some hon. Members are pressing me to make changes now. I have to strike a balance, but I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that if we come forward with further proposals for change we shall give the House time to consider them.

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The Gulf

39. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will set up a Select Committee to consider military action in Kuwait.

Mr. MacGregor : I have no plans to do so.

Mr. Dalyell : Before the Government reply in the debate on 15 March that I have been lucky enough to draw, will they reflect whether, in the light of the Al Sabah family's not returning to Kuwait as yet, in the light of the photochemical smog from the burning oil wells, which is becoming a desperate health problem, causing respiratory and other difficulties, and in the light of what appears to be happening to the Palestinians--the Kuwaitis are saying publicly that the Israelis know how to deal with the Palestinians, and are treating them very cruelly--there is not a serious case for a Select Committee? It looks as if we shall have to be in Kuwait for a very long time.

Mr. MacGregor : I do not think that it would be appropriate to have a specific and separate Select Committee. It is possible for individual Select Committees to look into aspects of the issue if they wish to do so. Indeed, I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence will give evidence to the Defence Select Committee on Wednesday of this week. The hon. Gentleman knows that Select Committees can take up these issues. From what he said, it is clear that more than one Select Committee may be involved.

Mr. Jessel : As we normally set up Select Committees to discuss what is going wrong, and as the military action in Kuwait plainly went absolutely right, ought we not to set up a Select Committee to determine what went so disastrously wrong with the policies of the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Ms. Short) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr. Heath)?

Mr. MacGregor : My hon. Friend makes a number of fair points, which speak for themselves.

Mr. Dalyell : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I confess that I was indeed wrong. I forecast that only 300 oil wells would go up ; actually, 900 are burning.

Mr. Speaker : Order. This matter may be discussed on Friday 15 March, since the hon. Gentleman has wisely chosen it as the subject for debate.

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Point of Order

3.34 pm

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You may recall that on 30 January the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment told the House that he estimated that there were 2,000 to 3,000 people sleeping rough in central London. On 22 February, the same Minister told the House that these figures were based on the whole of London--17 London boroughs. Do you, Sir, recall giving me an opportunity, by way of a private notice question, to raise this matter? On that occasion, the Minister said :

"It was because we felt our figures were out of date that we asked the voluntary organisations most experienced at dealing with rough sleepers in London to carry out a more recent count. The estimate that they produced came to 1,046 ... We shall therefore use that figure to replace the earlier and out-of-date estimate."--[ Official Report, 8 February 1991 ; Vol. 185 c.542-43.]

Have you seeen the reply, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker : I have not seen the reply, but, clearly, replies given by Ministers are not matters of order. They may be matters for disagreement, but what does that have to do with me?

Mr. Campbell-Savours : I wondered, Mr. Speaker, whether you had received a request for permission for a statement by a Minister in the Department of the Environment, in view of the fact that the revised figure related only to seven locations in central London.

Mr. Speaker : Order. This is an abuse of the points of order procedure.

AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY(FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL Ordered ,

That the Agriculture and Forestry (Financial Provisions) Bill be referred to a Second Reading Committee.-- [Mr. Patnick.]

Statutory Instruments, &c.

Mr. Speaker : With the leave of the House, I will put together the Questions on the four motions relating to statutory instruments. Ordered,

That the draft Department of Transport (Fees) (Amendment) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) (Amendment) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Vehicle Inspectorate Trading Fund Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. That the draft Central Office of Information Trading Fund Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Patnick.]

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