| Previous Section | Home Page |
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman now refers to the Labour party's fair rates document. That document, entitled "Fair Rates : Labour's Alternative to the Poll Tax", is one of 67 different documents and statements from the Labour party that I have had the privilege of seeing in the past few years. It says :
"The existing rates registers will provide a quick and convenient means of getting rid of the poll tax."
Fine. So what does the Labour party think about rates? [ Hon. Members-- : "Answer the question."] I will answer all the questions, but I want the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) to reflect on this. A news release issued by the Labour party's press and publicity department has fallen into my hands. On Saturday 20 September 1980, Neil Kinnock spoke at Pontllanfraith, Gwent. [ Hon. Members-- : "Who?"] The news release says--[ Hon. Members-- : "Answer."] I will answer the points but Opposition Members should not try to drown my remarks. They should listen to the words of their leader.
Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Earlier this afternoon you intervened when a Scottish National Member used the word "Thatcher", and insisted that the proper nomenclature be used. But you have now ignored a similar instance. I ask you to rule on it.
Mr. Speaker : If I did that, I was in error. I must have been thinking of something else. The Secretary of State must refer to the right hon. Gentleman by constituency.
Mr. Hunt : Despite his delaying tactics, I ask the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) to listen to what was said by his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who criticised my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment for increases in "the most unjust of all taxes".
What tax does the right hon. Gentleman describe as the most unjust of all-- "Local rates", the very system that the Labour party proposes to use,
"which take most from those who can afford least."
Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition will eat his words. [Interruption.] Opposition Members ought to listen. The Leader of the Opposition will either have to eat his words or come up with yet another policy.
The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside, describing my proposals, which are one tax, accused me of bribery. I apologise here and now for the record amount of extra money that I have won for Wales in the resources that I am able to announce to the House.
The hon. Gentleman's fourth point was that I had created chaos because of the present billing procedures. After ringing round all the authorities, we have discovered that only 13 of the 37 charging authorities in Wales have started billing. I make it absolutely clear here and now that the Government will provide any additional costs that our announcement has necessitated, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join forces with the Government in pushing through legislation as quickly as possible to bring about a reduction of £140.
The hon. Gentleman then said that independence for further education colleges was a lamentable proposition.
Mr. Barry Jones : Sixth form colleges.
Mr. Hunt : For further education and sixth form colleges.
Column 453
Mr. Jones rose--Mr. Hunt : No ; I will answer the hon. Gentleman's question. If the hon. Gentleman's question related to sixth form colleges, I am quite happy to assure him--
Mr. Hunt : I shall come to consultation in a moment, but I want to answer one question at a time. Sixth form colleges and further education establishments will welcome what I have said.
We have not consulted on the proposals yet because it was right that I should come to the House to announce them first. The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside has been in Neath this week--I am not sure why. He will hear rejoicing in Neath that Neath college now has independence. If he looks at the proposals in the round, I am sure that he will realise that there is general acceptance. I only wish that he had not missed the opportunity to consult me.
Sir Anthony Meyer (Clwyd, North-West) : I never thought that I would live to see the day when the Labour party would complain about the sums of money being made available to ease the plight of the people of Wales. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Labour party is now totally alone, sulking in the corner? My right hon. Friend will understand if I express a certain quiet satisfaction at today's events. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the people of Wales know that they have a Secretary of State who has fought valiantly to obtain for them--against all expectations--as large a reduction in poll tax as the poll tax payers in England have had, even though they started from a much higher base? They are extremely impressed with the flexibility and sensitivity to Welsh susceptibilities that my right hon. Friend has displayed in his consultation process and in his approach to the problem generally.
Mr. Hunt : I much appreciate my hon. Friend's generous remarks. I wonder whether the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside and a Labour Government would have succeeded in ensuring that 92 per cent. of local authority spending was met by aggregate external finance.
Mr. Alex Carlile (Montgomery) : I thank the Secretary of State for meeting my hon. Friends and me in consultation some days ago. I warmly welcome the commitment to unitary authorities, which will benefit Wales, and also the decision to consult on how that should be achieved. I also urge the Secretary of State to give community councils in Wales more responsibility. They should be obliged to take those responsibilities and should not be allowed to opt out of doing so, because they have a considerable contribution to make. Will the Secretary of State explain to a puzzled Welsh population why he--the person who, just over a year ago, described the poll tax as being central to the vision behind which all Conservatives could unite--has now changed his mind? Could it be that he stopped at Ribble Valley for a cup of tea on his way to Damascus? In particular, will he explain why he rejected the notion of a local income tax, which all those Welsh Members who took the trouble to meet him were united in recommending?
Will the Secretary of State join me in praising Powys county council for its considerable success in creating
Column 454
Coleg Powys, which is an excellent college of further education, and will he assure us that that institution will continue--albeit perhaps under other governance?Finally, will the Secretary of State assure the House that he will do his best to preserve the good sixth forms and comprehensive schools that exist in rural Wales?
Mr. Hunt : I appreciate the comments of the hon. and learned Member about consultation. The Labour party ought to reconsider its inflexible stance and stop hurling party political invective and insults. The people of Wales do not understand why the Labour party is the only political party in Wales that refuses to discuss its proposals with me. I believe that that is because those proposals will not stand the test of cross-examination. I promise the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside that, if he wants to avoid
cross-examination, I am quite prepared to listen to him, without interrupting or asking fundamental questions. I am prepared to meet the hon. Gentleman anywhere in Wales. I would merely ask him not to continue to impose new preconditions on consultation, but to get round the table with the rest of us to work out a solution that will endure for generations to come.
I confirm that Coleg Powys will be given independence under my announcement, and the move will be widely welcomed among the other 30 further education establishments.
I recognise the importance of the community councils, and find myself in agreement with all but three of the propositions voiced by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Mr. Keith Raffan (Delyn) : I join in the congratulations that have been offered to my right hon. Friend on achieving the same reduction in the community charge for Wales as for England. Will he take this a step further and adopt England's community charge reduction scheme, which is much fairer and will remove such absurd anomalies as have occurred as betwen Rhyl and Prestatyn? Is he aware that the only time the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs--with Members of all four political parties--ever broke into unanimous applause was when a witness passionately put forward the case for unitary authorities? Is he aware that there will be wide support for the policy of moving towards unitary local government in Wales? Thank God the word "devolved" was used by a Government Front-Bench Member today. Will he consider the need for a tier of government covering the whole of Wales? In my view, that should be a Welsh assembly or senate.
Mr. Hunt : I appreciate my hon. Friend's comments, I realise that he has very strong views about transitional relief and about the community charge reduction scheme. He has made those views very clear to me in private and in this Chamber. The reduction of £140 applies to every community charge payer in Wales. That will mean a drop of 55 per cent. in community charge bills, whereas in England the figure is 35 per cent.
My hon. Friend raised the question of a Welsh assembly. The local authorities association and others have pressed upon me the case for such an assembly to perform executive functions in the Principality. I have not reached a final decision on this question, but I have to say that the suggestions that have been put to me pose very considerable problems, not least because of the uncertainties and ambiguities about the respective responsibilities of the Secretary of State and of the
Column 455
assembly and about the powers of the assembly. I am not at present persuaded that the creation of an assembly along these lines would be in the best interests of the people of Wales.Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East) : Does the Secretary of State appreciate that it was a Conservative Government who reorganised local government in 1972, causing administrative chaos? In financial terms, it just about broke the Bank of England. What the right hon. Gentleman has said today suggests that the Government intend to try to repeat that exercise. Why does not he realise that the Conservative party is unrepresentative of the people of Wales? To realise how unrepresentative, he has only to look behind him. Does not he think that it would be better to leave it to a future Labour Government to make these difficult decisions? The Labour party truly represents the people of Wales, as is shown time after time in general elections.
Mr. Hunt : I am just not prepared to wait that long. The big issue in the next election will be whether Wales wishes to go forward under the progressive policies of our Prime Minister, or to go back to the failed and discredited Labour policies of the 1960s and the 1970s. Several Hon. Members rose--
Mr. Speaker : Order. As the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Mr. Bruce) was called on the last two statements, I shall give him a chance to recharge his batteries. He need not rise until towards the end.
Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore) : The Secretary of State referred to remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock). I should like to refer to a remark of the Secretary of State. Replying for the Government on a debate on local government finance on 25 July 1989, he referred to the Opposition's amendment to the motion :
"It says that the community charge is unfair, bureaucratic and difficult to collect."--[ Official Report, 25 July 1989 ; Vol. 157, c. 901.]
We all know that the right hon. Gentleman is a "Heseltini". In his statement this afternoon, the Secretary of State for the Environment said that we must alter the system so that it will be possible to collect the tax without difficulty. The Secretary of State would be wise to reread what he said and, perhaps, make a further statement. The poll tax payers in the Garw valley are jubilant because they will not have to pay anything if they get a rebate of £140. The poll tax figure there is £137, so they wonder whether they will get a refund of £3. [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker : Briefly, please.
Mr. Powell : This is a very complex problem, and some hon. Members have sat here for three hours.
Yesterday, as a resident of Westminster, I received a poll tax bill for £350. I pay double poll tax--twice £175. When I phoned the council to find out whether I would get a double rebate, I was told, "I very much doubt it, but, if so, you will owe us only £70. In view of the fact that collection costs £68, it might be better if you didn't pay any poll tax at all."
Mr. Speaker : Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman's comments would have been more appropriate following a
Column 456
statement by the Secretary of State for the Environment. The statement with which we are now dealing relates to Wales.Mr. Powell : You did not call me, Mr. Speaker, to put a question on the statement of the Secretary of State for the Environment. I understand that to be because a statement on the situation in Wales was to follow almost immediately.
Mr. Speaker : I would have called the hon. Member to ask a question relating to Westminster.
Mr. Powell : As I live in both places, I ought to have been called on both occasions.
Despite all the support that the Secretary of State for Wales has given to the Secretary of State for the Environment, the poll tax is in a mess. He is doing all he can to get Tarzan out of the jungle, but can he get the jungle out of Tarzan? That is what we want to know.
Mr. Hunt : Now we know why the Labour party is in such chaos over these proposals. The comment that I repeated was made not only by the leader of the party. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett), who is the party's spokesman on local government, said of a local income tax :
"I have been an advocate of this as an addition to--not a replacement for-- the rating system for a long time."
Those words are from the 16th of the 66 statements. No wonder we do not know what the Labour party stands for. The hon. Gentleman is fortunate not only to have more than one home but also to be able to expect a double dose of £140 in Westminster. The £140 comes off the community charge headline figure, not only in Wales but also in England.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Garw valley. Let me tell him that a lady from that area contacted my office and said, "Mr. Hunt, we all want you to come to the Garw valley and increase your popularity by distributing the money yourself." Sadly, there will be no refund, but people in the Garw valley will pay no community charge.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarvon) : Is the Secretary of State aware of the very great welcome that we give to the ending of the poll tax? It is an iniquitous tax, and the people of Wales have wanted to see the end of it. However, we should have much preferred to see it replaced by a local income tax, and we have some doubts about the practicality of a head count in each household.
Will the Secretary of State, in the light of what has been said by the Secretary of State for the Environment, confirm that the local government commission for England that has been announced will have nothing to do with the situation in Wales? We in Wales have a tradition of doing these things ourselves. Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to set up a local government commission for Wales? He is considering the establishment of unitary authorities. This is something that appears to unite all four parties in Wales. Comments made by the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan) a few moments ago suggest that there may be room for consensus also on the creation of an elected upon tier of democracy in Wales. If the Secretary of State were able to get representatives of the four parties together at this level, he would be doing a tremendous service for the people of Wales.
Mr. Hunt : Those who argue for a local income tax have not thought through the implications of what they
Column 457
propose. I am not persuaded that it is administratively feasible. It does not accord with the fundamental principle that almost everyone should pay towards the cost of local services, and it is contrary to the Government's commitment to keep taxes on income to the lowest possible level. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I carefully thought through all the arguments that he put to me. As for the commission, I agree with him that it is important for us to do these things ourselves in Wales. I was not proposing to set up a commission. But, of course, I am happy to listen to representations from those who think that we should. I adhere to the view that we do these things much better ourselves in Wales.Mr. Gareth Wardell (Gower) : Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the inclusion of the poll tax in the 1987 Tory party manifesto was a mistake? Does he further agree that, when Ministers and hon. Members go abroad, they should preach the gospel wherever they go to the effect that any Government who introduce a poll tax do so at their peril?
Mr. Hunt : I believe that it was right to get rid of domestic rates, and I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that it was the most unjust of taxes. I also believe today that it would be wrong to continue with the community charge, and I have made that clear from the Dispatch Box. I intend to abolish it at the earliest opportunity. I understand that Gorseinon college is in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. I hope that he will rejoicce with all at that college being independent, and that is a result of my decision today.
Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) : If the Secretary of State had a little more integrity, he would have said, in making his statement, that he had made a modest contribution to the turmoil in which Welsh finance has found itself in the past two years as the result of imposing a totally unpopular and unfair tax. If, according to the right hon. Gentleman, he has an open mind on the major issues with which we are now concerned, will he now state that if it emerges from the consultations that there is a justifiable demand for a Welsh assembly, above the unitary authorities, neither he nor the minority group in the Tory party who represent Wales will stand in the way of that demand?
Mr. Hunt : I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman is not trying to rewrite history. It is within my recollection--I was in the House at the time--that in 1979 there was a referendum on the question of an assembly in Wales. By a four to one majority, the people of Wales voted against it. We must be careful before we ignore that decision.
Mr. Alan W. Williams (Carmarthen) : When replying to my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell), the Secretary of State said he thought that the community charge had been a mistake. Will the right hon. Gentleman now apologise to the people of Wales for the leading part that he played in formulating that piece of legislation? Will he in particular apologise to the many hundreds of thousands of people in Wales who suffered severe hardship as a result of the introduction of the poll tax?
Mr. Hunt : The operation of the community charge has been remarkably successful in Wales compared with the
Column 458
situation in England. Just before coming into the Chamber I was given figures showing that local authorities in Wales have now collected more than 95 per cent. of the money due under the community charge. I readily admit, and said so to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell), that just as I believe it was right to abolish the rates, so I believe it is now right to abolish the community charge.Mr. Win Griffiths : It was apparent from the Secretary of State's announcement that, beyond saying that there would be a property tax with a poll tax element of some sort, he had little idea of precisely what we would end up with. In that connection, several questions must be answered. For example, will all houses in Wales be revalued? If they are revalued for the purpose of the new tax, will all house owners and tenants have the right to appeal against the new valuations?
Problems are likely to arise over the definition of "adult" in a household. The allowance for the number of people in a household may be as little as 1 per cent. Whatever the percentage, will any weighting be allowed for each adult, depending on whether they are or are not earning money? In other words, will there be a zero rating in that situation? Many other questions will have to be answered, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will answer those at this stage. Finally-- [Interruption.] We also had a statement on further education. Bearing in mind the ballot decision for schools, will there be a ballot in sixth form colleges, and will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the situation in Coleg Powys--
Mr. Speaker : Briefly, please.
Mr. Griffiths : I do not know whether the Secretary of State realises that Coleg Powys is on the same site as Brecon high school. How will the boundaries be defined for the purpose of this public limited company?
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman is a walking example of the fact that the Labour party should now rethink its whole approach to local government and come in and engage in the consultation process. Some of the questions that he asks are precisely those on which I shall now be consulting.
From the Labour party document on rates, it is clear that Labour Members have already decided that they will use the existing rates registers and will rely on them
"for as long as is needed to undertake a complete revaluation." In other words, Opposition Members are committed. I want them to back away from that commitment and to come in and discuss matters on the basis that I have announced this afternoon.
Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East) : It is astonishing that the Secretary of State has not thought fit to apologise. He is claiming an alibi, though his fingerprints have been all over the poll tax from the start. Will someone in central Government, notably in the Cabinet, be surcharged for the cost to Swansea city council this week of sending out 140,000 poll tax bills? Someone is responsible for that and someone will have to pay. Will it be the taxpayer? The new two-tier tax will require a head count. Will it involve a register analogous to that of the poll tax? Will that not involve the same sort of administrative costs and burdens as the poll tax? In Landore ward in my constituency, £7.40 will be the total charge for those with
Column 459
full exemption under the poll tax system. It costs Swansea city council £11 to collect that sum. What is the Secretary of State's advice to that city council--to collect or not to collect that £7.40?Mr. Hunt : Against a background where Wales--I pay tribute to the local authority officials involved--has achieved more or less the same collection rate as was achieved under the old rating system, I see no need to apologise. Indeed, there is need to praise local authorities in Wales for having achieved such a commendable result.
The question of collection is for the local council, and the hon. Member for Ogwr-- [Interruption.] The hon. Member who represents Ogwr, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), will know the situation in Westminster, where apparently it is not thought to be worth collecting. The question of collection is for each individual council.
On the totality of what has been said, I wonder what the Labour party is so scared of. What is it so worried about that it will not follow the example of the Conservatives, Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Liberal Democrats? Are the Labour Members scared because they have not thought through their proposals and do not know the figures, and are not prepared, therefore, to put them on the table? They ought to be ashamed of themselves.
Dr. John Marek (Wrexham) : If the Secretary of State accepts my charitable assumption that the education changes that he has announced have more to do with education than with the survival of the Conservative party at the next general election, can he spell out what is wrong in his eyes with the present governance of the north-east Wales institute and its links with Clwyd county council? He must know that the county council was to spend £11 million on tertiary reorganisation. Who will provide that money now?
Mr. Hunt : I made it absolutely clear that approximately £100 million is being spent in Wales on tertiary education. It is my intention to have the same amount of resources available for further education colleges and sixth form colleges. There are no problems on resources. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek), who talks to me positively and constructively about problems in his area, should say to his hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones), "Go and see the Welsh Secretary, just as all the others have done. Sit down and talk through the problem with him." The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside cannot duck the issue of consultation any longer.
Mr. Ian Bruce (Dorset, South) : I listened carefully to the statement and to the questions. I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for calling a Welsh-born Member who represents the English taxpayer. I cannot understand why my right hon. Friend, on the one hand, is saying that he is pleased to get rid of the community charge and, on the other, is making an enormous reduction in the bills. Will he be able to justify to the people of Wales doing away with a taxation system that would charge only £95 to someone in full work who could probably pay a great deal more? What will he put in its place? Because it is fair that
Column 460
people in England should pay a particular percentage, should not exactly the same conditions apply in Wales in regard to the money given from central taxation?Mr. Hunt : I did make an apology before ; the apology was for securing what has been described to me by some local authority leaders as an astonishingly excessive amount of Government support for local authority services in Wales. I plead guilty, but I will never stop fighting for the best possible deal for Wales. If it means that community charges in Wales come down by 55 per cent. whereas in England they come down by 35 per cent., I plead guilty, and I apologise to the House for winning too much money for Wales. I see no reason why the introduction of a new system should lead to a reduction in resources for Wales. It did not do so when we introduced the community charge, and it should not if we decide to introduce a new system. The real question is, would the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside win as much for Wales in a Labour Cabinet as I have done in a Conservative Cabinet?
Mr. Barry Jones : May I again invite the right hon. Gentleman to apologise to the people of Wales for his role in imposing the poll tax upon them? Does he agree that he was guilty of a monumental error of judgment for which he must apologise to the people of Wales?
Mr. Hunt : I do not accept that. I said before, and I say again, that I believe that it was right to abolish the most unjust of all taxes-- the domestic rating system--and I believe that it is right now to abolish the comunity charge. The hon. Gentleman cannot keep ducking the issue--
Mr. Jones rose--
Mr. Speaker : Order. No interventions on an answer.
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside is shouting at me. He should come into my office--
Mr. Jones rose--
Mr. Hunt : He should come into my office and sit down, in the same way as Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives have sat down. Why is he running scared?
Mr. Jones rose--
Mr. Speaker : Order. We cannot have interventions in the middle of an answer.
Mr. Hunt : I shall speak to the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside again when he provides an explanation of why he has come to the Chamber and yet at the same time is running scared.
Mr. Jones rose-- Mr. Speaker : Order. Has the Secretary of State finished?
Mr. Hunt indicated assent.
Column 461
Local Government Review (Scotland)
7.10 pm
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang) : With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the Government's community charge review as it affects Scotland. These are our preliminary conclusions on local government finance, functions and structure, on which we will now have further and detailed consultation.
A vitally important part of our conclusions is the step change in central Government funding for local authorities announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget statement on Tuesday. That is a major shift in the balance between central and local funding of local authority expenditure, and it recognises that the burden of local authority services has borne too heavily on the local tax base, not least because of the failure of local authorities to keep their spending at levels which it is reasonable to ask local taxpayers to support. For example, in the first year of the community charge, Scottish local authorities increased their budgets in real terms by 5 per cent. and, for the coming year, they have increased charge levels by an average of 30 per cent., despite a generous grant settlement. The Government have now tackled that aspect of the problem head on, by reducing local tax bills substantially.
We have nevertheless considered how best the reduced tax bill should be met, in a way which is fair, which is easy to administer, which spreads the burden as widely as possible, and which enables councils to remain accountable to their electors. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has announced, we now propose to replace the community charge with a new local tax which will have elements based both on the value of the house and on the number of persons living there. We will be issuing a consultation paper on the new tax soon.
The details of the new tax and the options for the personal and property elements, and the relationship between them, will be set out in the consultation paper. For Scotland, that will take account of distinctive Scottish circumstances. I can reassure the House, however, that the new tax will not suffer from the defects of the old domestic rating system. Most obviously, it will take account of the number of people in the household. People will also, rightly, expect us to ensure that disproportionate tax burdens are not placed on a small minority of households and that there are no large fluctuations following periodic revaluations. There will also need to be effective transitional arrangements when the new tax is introduced, which we plan to be in 1993-94 if possible, in Scotland as in England. We will also ensure--if need be through rigorous capping of local authorities' expenditure plans--that the now reduced burden which local taxpayers will face is not increased once again to unacceptable levels by local authorities' spending decisions.
There is no change to the Government's policy on non-domestic rates, where we retain our aim of harmonising rates in Scotland with those in the rest of Great Britain.
It does not, however, make sense to look at the financing of local government in isolation from the functions which it discharges, and the burden thereby
| Next Section
| Home Page |