| Previous Section | Home Page |
Mr. Page : I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I do not intend to get involved this morning in the libertarian argument about whether the provisions of the Bill should apply to the entire population or should be applied only for the protection of children. In a
Column 687
previous intervention the right hon. Gentleman made the point that the Bill provides for the protection of children until they reach the age when they can make the decision for themselves, and I intend to stick to that argument. The right hon. Gentleman, who sits beside me on the Public Accounts Committee, and I have seen many a report highlighting the cost to this nation of the effects of smoking tobacco on people's health, including coronary heart disease and many other associated illnesses. However, if I were to go down that route we should be here for a long time and it would not serve the purposes of the debate.I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) for supporting my view that parents, schools and everyone else should take part in the moral crusade to prevent children from smoking. Local authorities must, however, provide the sharp cutting edge of enforcement and magistrates must back up the enforcement. Then, I hope, fewer children will smoke and the result will be a healthier nation.
Mr. Robert Banks (Harrogate) : I welcome the amendments that we are debating--in particular, new clause 2 and the amendments to tidy up clause 4. In Committee I made the plea that we should make the language of the Bill understandable and I congratulate the Minister on achieving that aim. On many occasions I have emphasised that the legislation that we pass should be couched in language which makes quite clear what its purpose is.
The hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) said that he had sought consensus. Both he and the Minister have achieved it. One has only to consider the provisions of the Bill before it went into Committee to realise that now they have been honed to a workable form.
I remind my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) that legislation prohibiting the sale of tobacco to children has been in place since 1933, so local authorities already have that responsibility. All that the Bill does is to emphasise their role in bringing prosecutions and ensuring that there is adequate publicity about preventing the sale of tobacco products to children. Much has been said in the debate about the libertarian aspect. My view is this ; smoking is habit forming, and if we permit children to smoke there is the danger that the habit may carry through into later life and seriously damage their health. Nevertheless, we must remember that children will be children. When they mature, they can make logical decisions about what substances to consume--be it tobacco, alcohol or anything else--but during the growing-up process they will inevitably try things that are not necessarily good for them. Therefore, Members of Parliament--including those of us who are parents--have a role to play. Local authorities also have a role to play in ensuring that the legislation is enforced. I sympathise with local authorities when the legislation that we pass leads to additional expenditure, due to the extra personnel that they have to employ, but in this instance we are emphasising a role that they already have under the 1933 Act and asking them to get on with that important job.
Mr. Michael Brown : I do not intend to oppose new clause 2, which will bring the law in Scotland into line with the provisions that we agreed in Standing Committee. I do not intend, either, to oppose the other amendments in this grouping. Before we agree them, however, I should like to
Column 688
refer to some of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Page). I thought that he had gone off his head this morning ; normally, he is so sensible about the role of governmental organisations and local authorities. Therefore, I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) intervened. He made exactly the same point as had occurred to me.As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks) said, it has been against the law to sell tobacco to children since 1933. However the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) believes, and there is evidence to support his view, that, notwithstanding the fact that it is against the law for tobacco to be sold to children, they are nevertheless getting hold of it. Therefore the hon. Gentleman and the Minister have proposed amendments to ensure that the law is enforced. Even though an Act has been on the statute books since 1933, more and more children appear to be buying cigarettes.
The sponsor of the Bill and his hon. Friends support the Bill enthusiastically. I support the Bill's reaching the statute book, but not with a great deal of enthusiasm, because I believe that, in two, three or four years' time when local authorities have produced their annual reports, they will say that the problem is as bad as ever. It might even have got worse.
10.30 am
However much we seek to enforce the law--I agree that it should be enforced, and if there is evidence that the law has been broken it is essential that prosecutions take place, maximum fines are imposed and the penalties are severe enough to be a deterrent--I am concerned that it will not change what goes on in the real world. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles) said, it is quite possible for people to beat the law.
Most evenings at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock or midnight a group of teenagers who have nothing better to do hang around the war memorial in the village where I live. Some of them are over 16 and some are under 16. I know jolly well that, notwithstanding the intentions behind the Bill, those over 16 will go into the village shop and legally buy cigarettes and those under 16 will smoke them. No law will have been broken because the cigarettes will have been purchased by those over 16. They will probably have done exactly what was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East in Committee and sold them singly for 10p a throw. Ultimately, it is the duty of the House to do all that it can to prevent illegal sales of cigarettes to those under 16--and it has been illegal since 1933--of course and to ensure that any changes in the law are enforced by the agencies outside. The Bill clarifies that it is the duty of local authorities to enforce the law and clears up the doubt over whether is is the duty of the police or of local authorities.
The rumours in the papers regarding the announcement to be made by the Secretary of State for the Environment leaves my constituency in some doubt. The Minister will clarify today whether it will be the district council or the county council, through its trading standards office, that enforces the provisions of the Bill. I should point out that I represent a constituency in the county of Humberside. According to "Newsnight" last night, apparently the county of Humberside is not much longer for this world. In the event that the county is abolished--I hope that it is--how will the Bill's provisions apply to my constituency?
Column 689
Will the legislation relating to the reorganisation of local government which is likely to be introduced later this year have to be amended, or will the Bill have to be amended to deal with the fact that later this year I will represent a constituency within a county that does not exist? Will the Minister tell me what is likely to happen?In conclusion, let me summarise some of my misgivings about the Bill. Ultimately, for all the enforcement agencies and local authorities which may or may not exist, we come back to the parents. I am glad that the organisation is called Parents Against Tobacco as parents are the most important group of people who can do something about children smoking. What I should like to happen around the country and in Ulceby, the village where I live, is for parents and responsible people to say to the parents of children who smoke, "Your son is not 16 yet, is he? I could have sworn that I saw him smoking outside the Spar shop in the village the other day." That is what used to happen in the 1950s and 1960s when I was a schoolboy. I knew jolly well that if I were ever tempted to smoke the lady who lived across the road from my family would speak to my mother and say, "I could have sworn that I saw Michael smoking the other day. He is not 16 yet, is he?" That is the most effective way to deal with the problem.
Mr. Page : Did that actually happen to my hon. Friend and did it stop him smoking?
Mr. Brown : Yes, it did. I can honestly say that I never had one puff of a cigarette and I admit that I was a pretty dreadful child, as I am sure all hon. Members would expect. I was intimidated by my parents, the neighbours and, most of all, by my teachers who regarded the idea of anyone in their charge smoking--that also applied to those aged over 16 as I stayed at school until I went to university--as unacceptable. At my secondary modern school, the penalties for anyone between the ages of 16 and 18 caught smoking on the school premises were extremely severe. I only regret that it is not possible for the Bill to contain provisions for teachers to spend a little more time, effort and energy on enforcing the ideas behind it, as teachers are letting the side down. In the average comprehensive secondary school today, teachers do not recognise the crime of smoking under the age of 16 in the same way as we do. The rules should be toughened up through the education system.
Parents and teachers can have a far greater impact than any legislation. That is not to say that I do not accept and understand the need for legislation. I agree that if it reaches the statute book the Bill will improve matters. I hope that my hon. Friend's Department and the Department of Health will start keeping statistics as soon as the Bill reaches the statute book and that in a year or two years' time we can have an Adjournment debate on the issue to see whether there is any change for the better. I have a shrewd suspicion that although there may be some improvement, we need to get the message through to parents. Parents Against Tobacco needs to get the message through.
I have an interesting critique of the Parents Against Tobacco campaign written by Mr. Chris Cooper. He suggests that some of their statements should be reworded. He writes :
"Did Des Wilson perhaps in the early stages of drafting his denunciations of the buying of cigarettes by children ever blurt out anything indiscreet, such as, You negligent, improvident, irresponsible parents let your children run wild
Column 690
without thought for their health and now we, the right-thinking, energetic, caring parents are going to have to do your job for you.' If he ever did, squads of PR people stepped in to soften the message without moderating the excitable prose. The parents of this country will not allow the heath of their children to be threatened and their lives to be potentially curtailed by the activities and products of a ruthlessly cynical industry."We must acknowledge that there is an element of buck-passing. We pass the buck to the House of Commons, to the courts, to the police and now to either the district councils or the county councils. We are now saying that all of them have a responsibility, but, ultimately, we shall not get a grip on the problem until there is a greater sense of parental and teacher discipline on children, which is lacking not only on the question of smoking but on a range of other issues. Smoking is only the symptom of a breakdown of teacher and parental discipline. Although we, as responsible citizens representing our constituents, are right to try to do what we can to put the Bill on the statute book, parents must exercise greater discipline.
When I see people in my village and tap them on the shoulder--which I do as a responsible Member of Parliament--to draw their attention to one or two things that their children are doing and suggest that their children should not run riot through the village a 11 pm, midnight, or 1 am, that they should perhaps not get drunk and should not smoke if they are under the age of 16 and that they get up to no good, the parents do not like it. Little Johnny can do no wrong. Until we break through that attitude, we shall make no progress, whatever legislation is on the statute book.
I welcome the new clause in so far as it relates to Scotland--it merely repeats what we wrote into the Bill in Committee--and although I also support the other amendments, I urge a note of caution. Until teachers and parents recognise their responsibilities, we are unlikely to change some of the statistics which were given by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East.
Miss Lestor : We know now that the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) was a model child and was never tempted down the path followed by so many other hon. Members. I was also a model child and never smoked.
I recently heard an hon. Member describe something that had happened and say, "I slept like a baby." I remember thinking that that man had never been involved with one. I now say to the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes--that paragon of virtue--that I am certain that he has never been a parent. If he had, he would know that although all parents have responsibility, we cannot hold them solely responsible for the actions of their children. Parents are often fighting against an ethos in society which encourages their children to go in the opposite direction to that which they would have wanted. It was not parents who, in the 1960s, encouraged their children to smoke cannabis. Parents have a responsibility, but so do we all. That does not mean that the House should not try to enact legislation that makes it easier for parents to carry out their responsibilities and not have them undermined by irresponsible shopkeepers and irresponsible advertising.
Column 691
When talking about passing the buck, we can make a contribution by saying that the buck stops here. I was going to take up what my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) said--Sir Trevor Skeet : Is the hon. Lady suggesting that parents should abdicate their responsibilities and that society should be run by the House or by legislators who, of course, always know best?
Miss Lestor : I thought that I said the opposite, but I repeat that parents have responsibilities. Often what they try to do is undermined by other agencies and by the ethos of our society. That is what has happened with smoking.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East on the Bill and on the way in which he has accommodated many hon. Members, especially the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes. I would not have been so generous. My hon. Friend almost described the Committee as a love-in and I was going to take him up on that. However, having listened to the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes say that although he disagreed with the Bill he would go along with it, I believe that my hon. Friend was right : those of us who believe in the Bill influenced hon. Members who had doubts to say that they would support it.
It is important that we clarify who has responsibility. I, too, believe in deterrents. We can now publicise the fear of detection of those people who sell to under-age children and shopkeepers will now be aware of their responsibilities. We cannot stop youngsters over the age of 16 or adults giving cigarettes to children, but we can try to create an atmosphere in which they believe it to be undesirable. We do not have the power to go around our constituencies poking people and saying, "Look, we know what you are doing." We do not have such powers and some of us might get strange responses, but we can make it more difficult for children to smoke.
10.45 am
One important issue that has not been raised is that, whatever freedoms may exist in society for adults, the medical profession is concerned about the effect of smoking on young girls who can become addicted at an early age. There is a danger not only to their health but to the health, well-being, survival rates and weights of the babies that they produce. Anyone who knows anything about children's health is worried about that. One of the first questions that hospitals and doctors ask a pregnant woman--especially a young woman--is whether she smokes and they advise her not to do so. Smoking during pregnancy has an effect on the weight of a child and on the way in which it thrives. A motion was tabled on that issue during the previous Session.
Women's magazines offer a temptation or invitation to smoke. Many young girls read such magazines and we must do our bit to counter that by saying that there is another argument. We must create an ethos in which smoking is unfashionable and try to stop people selling cigarettes to children.
The hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes introduced a red herring by asking who would be responsible if a local authority was abolished. I am sure that the Minister will deal with that issue. There are transfers of schedules and ways to deal with such issues. The hon. Gentleman introduced the red herring to raise doubts and to say that the Bill would not work. Until
Column 692
legislation is on the statute book, we do not know whether it will work. Sometimes we must return to legislation to refine it and to deal with further difficulties, but if we all agree that we do not want our children to smoke, we must ensure that whatever parents, teachers and others do, people are not allowed to tempt our children and get away with breaking the law.Mr. Peter Lloyd : I wish to make a few comments in answer to points that have been made. As I said in my opening remarks, I understand the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Knowles), who does not want unnecessary and expensive duties to be placed on local authorities. However, clause 4 would require local authorities to decide how best to enforce powers and responsibilities that they already have. We ask them to think carefully about how best to use them and put them into effect. I hope that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) will agree that time spent on reconnaissance is never wasted ; that is equally true of local authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East said that he was not minded to press his amendment and I am glad that he came to that conclusion.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North was right to stress that cigarettes are harmful. Local authorities will have to take stock of how they use their powers and use them as effectively as possible so that children cannot buy cigarettes as easily as they have been able to do in many places.
I was glad that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) welcomed the Government's new clause 2. He was right that Scottish local authorities do not prosecute, but they are best placed to provide the evidence to the procurator fiscal on which prosecutions may be based. I hope that those local authorities use their opportunities effectively and fully. That is the view and hope of my ministerial colleagues in the Scottish Office.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) was in a sombre--indeed, almost pessimistic vein for most of his speech. He spoke about the difficulties of enforcement. Because this is a difficult area to enforce, we spent much time in Committee considering how to do that. The Government will assist by issuing a full and helpful circular and by ensuring that local authorities include in their annual reports information on what they are doing so that local people know what is happening in their area and can take the action that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes suggested that parents and teachers should take. I am glad that my hon. Friend accepted that we should do all that we reasonably can by legislation and I am grateful to him for that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes asked who will enforce the law in his local authority area if the position changes. I am not sure what the possibilities are for his area, but I imagine that the authority may become a single-tier body. In that case, it is simple--those responsibilities that belong to the local authorities which are abolished will pass to the single-tier authority and responsibility for enforcing the Bill's provisions will belong to the local authority that has all the responsibilities for local government duties in my hon. Friend's constituency.
I was impressed by the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes revealed that he was
Column 693
intimidated by his parents when he was a child. I am not sure that he has ever been intimidated by anyone in the Chamber, as he repeatedly proves in his speeches. My hon. Friend was right to emphasise the disciplinary role of parents, teachers and other adults. I hope that that message will not be obscured by our concentrating on what we can do in legislation. I am sure that that will not happen, because my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North put that message before us constantly in Committee and again pithily this morning. His view found agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East and other hon. Members.I am grateful to the hon. Member for Eccles (Miss Lestor) for her support for the further changes that I have asked the House to make to the Bill. She rightly said that smoking is particularly bad for pregnant woment and can do much damage to their children. That should be widely known. The hon. Lady referred to advertising seen by young people. I draw her attention to the voluntary agreement that excluded advertising in a range of magazines that are particularly read by young women. Perhaps we shall return to that point later. It should be emphasised in concert with the hon. Lady's important point about young women.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
Clause 3
Sale of unpackaged cigarettes
Sir Trevor Skeet : I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 2, line 24, leave out clause 3.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : With this it will be convenient to consider Government amendments Nos. 3 and 4.
Sir Trevor Skeet : The title of the Bill is the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Bill, but the primary concern of clause 3 is not children but adults--adults, not children, will be penalised. Under the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 and subsequent Acts, it is illegal to sell a packet of 10 cigarettes to a child of 16--I would be very much against that. It is also illegal to sell one cigarette out of a packet of 10 to a child, because the greater covers the lesser, so why repeat the point?
It is extraordinary that the Bill not merely dots the i's but crosses the t's. There is a refusal to accept that when something is already illegal it is not necessary to make it illegal a second time. This provision is not necessary. What will happen if it is illegal to sell cigarettes individually? Small tobacconists face a 2.5 per cent. increase in VAT and a recession. They also face the possibility of higher penalties--I understand that scale 3 penalties will be imposed--such as a £1,000 fine if they make the great mistake of selling one cigarette to an adult. Seen in that light, it is ridiculous. It deprives a low-income person of the right to go into a shop to buy a single cigarette.
We had an interesting debate on this matter in Committee. My hon. Friend the Minister said :
"On the clause stand part debate I shall advise the Committee to drop clause 3".
Nothing could be more specific than that. My hon. Friend also said :
Column 694
"It is a piece of self-indulgent rhetorical legislation that we should eschew. It is already illegal to sell cigarettes to children."--[ Official Report, Standing Committee C, 13 February 1991 ; c. 99-100.]My hon. Friend the Minister gave clear guidance in Committee and dealt adequately with the points that were raised. I hope that he will also consider the points that I raise today and that we can find a way round some of the difficulties.
I should like to make a point about the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds). On our trips to the middle east, old friendships were restored. I am delighted that the Bill will go on the statute book. It deserves to be called the Faulds (No. 1) Bill. It will contribute to the long line of legislation dealing with children. No hon. Member wants children under 16 to smoke, but the means by which we propose to achieve that differ.
The hon. Member for Warley, East believes that legislation should be supreme in this case. It is all very well to ask local authorities to prosecute. They can beaver away every day of the year trying to find a way to prosecute, but, unless they have evidence, there will be no convictions. In 1990, there were about 30 minor convictions for such offences.
Ultimately, we must have confidence that people will abide by the law, and more than 90 per cent. of retailers recognise their responsibility and want to comply with the law. What evidence exists of abuse of the law against selling cigarettes to children under the age of 16?
11 am
The Minister has tabled an amendment to deal with enforcement. It recommends that the penalty be raised to scale 3, which seems rather tough. Formerly, the maximum fine was about £400, which was imposed by clause 15 of the Criminal Justice Bill 1991. Under scale 3 it will go up to £1,000. I understand why, in certain circumstances, courts should impose the full fine. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South- West (Mr. Page) recognised the fact that a severe punishment should exist, but I cannot see how the £1,000 fine would be appropriate unless a series of offences had been committed. Will my hon. Friend the Minister explain that point?
Another Government amendment goes some way toward helping us and says that cigarettes should include cigars. However, cigars cannot be broken in half and handed around in that way. Therefore, they would have to be excluded because their inclusion would cause serious difficulties.
This country is now part and parcel of the European Community. How does the Bill stand with regard to European legislation? The EC wanted to place an order that would be binding on the United Kingdom. Would clause 3 be acceptable to the Council of Ministers? Would it survive the microscope of Europe or would it have to be modified? As the matter has been partially dealt with, that is where we should deal with it finally. If the EC is about to legislate on the subject we should be cautious about legislating in the Chamber.
Mr. George Galloway (Glasgow, Hillhead) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Have you had any notification of the Government's intention to make a statement today on this morning's publication of the Amnesty International report on the position of Palestinians and others in Kuwait? Twice in the past few
Column 695
weeks and three times through letters to the Prime Minister, I have raised the issue of the imminent danger of a murderous pogrom against Palestinians in Kuwait, where British forces are situated. The current Government of Kuwait, which Amnesty International accuses of being involved, through their armed forces, in murder, torture and abduction, were reinstated to power partly with the help of the British armed forces. If a Sabra or Chatilla occur in Kuwait city under the shadow of British armed forces, it will have serious consequences.Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I have heard what the hon. Gentleman says, but I have received no such request. The matter will no doubt be dealt with by the Government.
Mr. Hugo Summerson (Walthamstow) : May I say how much I support the amendment? I am extremely worried about clause 3 for several reasons. I was not on the Standing Committee but, in principle, I agree with the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) about the need to protect young children from tobacco. However, I have read clause 3 carefully and see no specific reference to young people. It states : "it shall be an offence for any person carrying on a retail business to sell cigarettes to any person other than in pre-packed quantities".
It says nothing about persons under the age of 16. If it did so, I would support it, but as it does not I oppose it utterly. In certain parts of the country there has long been a custom of tobacconists selling cigarettes singly, particularly in my part of the world in the north-east. It would cause great resentment if that practice were stopped. In my constituency there is a specialist tobacconist, to which people come from miles around, to buy and sample products. It would make life difficult for such specialists if they could not sell cigarettes singly.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) said that children in his constituency were buying packets of cigarettes and selling them singly at 10p each. As I believe that a packet of cigarettes now costs more than £2, my hon. Friend should teach those children a little about business matters.
Mr. Geoffrey Dickens (Littleborough and Saddleworth) : We should bear in mind the fact that the tobacco industry supports the non-sale of cigarettes to persons under 16 years of age. However, Government figures suggest that some £70 million worth of cigarettes are being sold to juveniles. By the same token, it must be recognised that the tobacco industry spends £1 million advertising the fact that shopkeepers should not sell cigarettes to those under 16. The clause deals with selling cigarettes singly. In disadvantaged areas, many people like to take advantage of buying one or two cigarettes, especially at the end of the week. I fear that the clause will deprive them of that facility. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) clearly stated, a law already exists covering the sale of single cigarettes to children. As it is already unlawful for children to buy cigarettes, the clause is unnecessary and its removal would not undermine the current sound legislation.
As a non-smoker who supports the tobacco industry, I feel that the industry has a difficult job to do. I support the withdrawal of the clause as it is unnecessary and hits disadvantaged people.
Column 696
Mr. Maclennan : Hon. Members who have spoken on the clause have shown little common sense. The section of the community which is most likely to--and, according to the only evidence that we have, does--buy cigarettes singly in any great numbers, is that of children.
Mr. Maclennan : The hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) did not produce a scintilla of evidence that there was large-scale purchasing of single cigarettes by adults, and nor did the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens). If the evidence had been available it would have been brought before us by the tobacco lobby, which clearly has an interest in stopping as much of the Bill as it can. I do not believe that any such evidence exists.
Mr. Michael Brown : The specific point is that if a shopkeeper has been selling single cigarettes to children, that shopkeeper has already committed an offence under the 1933 legislation. Therefore, the only people who can possibly be affected by the introduction of clause 3 are people aged over 16, to whom the Bill does not generally apply.
Mr. Maclennan : That is not quite my point, but I will deal with it later. I was dealing with sales of single cigarettes to adults. I do not believe that there is any evidence of extensive sales of single cigarettes to adults. If there had been, I have no doubt that it would have been brought before the House during the passage of the Bill.
Mr. Dickens : I said that there was £70 million worth of sales to juveniles, which represented just 1 per cent. of all sales in the United Kingdom. If the hon. Gentleman wants evidence, he should ask who is buying all the other cigarettes.
Mr. Maclennan : Cigarettes are normally sold in packets. The evidence is that single sales relate to children. The most persuasive evidence put before the House was that of the 1985 Bristol survey. That evidence also showed clearly the extent to which children who smoke when aged 14 to 15 are hooked on the habit by buying single cigarettes. More than half of those children bought single cigarettes over a period. That is a problem.
The fanciful suggestion that we are depriving adults of the possibility of smoking because they cannot afford to buy more than one or two cigarettes at a time seems, when weighed in the balance against under-age smoking, to be seriously flawed. I well remember the words of the Tom Lehrer song about today's young innocent faces being tomorrow's clientele.
This is one of the Bill's more important clauses because one of our great difficulties in enforcing the ban is producing the evidence. Clearly, evidence of cigarette packets that have been partially broken into to obtain single cigarettes could be compelling evidence when seeking to enforce the rigours of the law.
Mr. Robert Banks : I supported the clause in Committee when we had a long and intricate debate on it. I received publicity in my constituency for my stand on banning the sale of single cigarettes. I have not received any letters from anyone complaining that they buy single cigarettes and would be deprived of doing so under the clause.
Column 697
Mr. Maclennan : I am extremely grateful for the hon. Gentleman's helpful intervention. I am sure that his common sense attitude is the one which the House should display towards the clause. The provisions of the clause seem to be a sensible attempt to bolster the Bill's purpose. Those who argue against it must address the clear evidence that young people buy cigarettes singly and there are unscrupulous shopkeepers prepared to sell them singly, repeatedly, until children are hooked. That is one of the main causes of under-age smoking. The Bill tackles it effectively and I hope that the House will support it.
11.15 am
Mr. Peter Lloyd : Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North (Sir T. Skeet) who has just moved the amendment in a vigorous, common -sense and slightly teasing style, I had considerable misgivings about the relevance of the clause to the rest of the Bill, for a number of reasons. As he said, I put those reasons fully in Committee.
First, it is already an offence to sell cigarettes to children. Therefore, the clause partly duplicates the existing law. Secondly, in practice or in theory, depending on whether one believes that adults buy cigarettes singly, the clause limits adults' rights, albeit in a small way. As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson) said, it is not the Bill's specific purpose to prevent cigarettes from being sold in ones or twos to adults. I was also concerned that the clause might contravene article 30 of the treaty of Rome as an unnecessary restriction of trade. The Government have given that matter further consideration and do not consider that they need to oppose the clause on the ground of the risk of challenge under the treaty. Apart from what has been said by one or two of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, we are not aware that, at present, cigarettes are sold in packets of less than 10, and are not often sold singly to adults. However, there is evidence that they are sold singly to children. Unless such facts were to be introduced, we consider the risk of challenge under article 30 to be very small.
Hon. Members who were members of the Standing Committee will recall that we had a robust debate on the clause, which was ordered to stand part of the Bill by the casting vote of the Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill). In voting in support of the clause, my hon. Friend was following tradition and precedent, and I have no quarrel with his decision. However, I noted carefully the views of the supporters of the clause on both sides of the Committee, and I understood their special concern about children picking up the smoking habit by initially buying cigarettes in ones or twos. We want to put a stop to that, as I believe do all hon. Members.
The Bill's main purpose is to stop the supply of cigarettes to children under 16. We are addressing that problem in several ways. The Bill strengthens the law on illegal sales and increases the penalty for such offences. It also clarifies the role of local authorities in enforcing the law. However, I recognise that there is a strongly held view that some errant retailers contrive to believe that there is nothing unlawful about selling single cigarettes to children or, where they do understand that it is unlawful, they believe that they can get away with it.
Column 698
Therefore, I understand the attraction to many hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), the Bill's sponsor, in having a specific provision on the face of the Bill to prohibit the sale of single cigarettes. I have also been influenced by my ministerial colleagues, particularly those at the Department of Health, who are in favour of the clause, and by representations that I have received from local organisations and members of the public.Last, but certainly not least, I have considered the views of the Government's chief medical officer, who has told me of his support for the clause. Having had the opportunity to reflect on the matter and weigh up the strongly held views on both sides, and then having reflected again, particularly during this debate, my conclusion is that the clause should be left in the Bill.
Sir Trevor Skeet : My hon. Friend has the interests of children under 16 at heart, but he will have seen the figures produced by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys showing that, in 1982, the percentage of boys who smoked at least one cigarette a week was 11 per cent. By 1988, the figure had dropped to 7 per cent. It is well down, so boys are smoking less. In the same period, the figure for girls dropped from 11 per cent. to 9 per cent. If the trend is in the right direction, do we require this hammer to deal with it?
Mr. Lloyd : If there are opportunities to reinforce that welcome trend, it would be irresponsible of us not to take them.
The Government no longer wish to oppose clause 3. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, North, who advanced some powerful and extremely familiar arguments against the clause, will likewise decide, on balance, not to press for its deletion. He quoted me as saying that there was something of self-indulgence in the clause. I used those words, and I think there is, but occasionally it is right for the House to indulge itself, and if it does so on this matter, children will be the beneficiaries.
Amendment No. 3 makes it an offence to sell upackaged cigarettes. Its purpose is simply to provide a penalty for that offence at level 3 on the standard scale. The maximum fine under level 3 is £400, but it will rise to £1,000 when the Criminal Justice Bill is enacted. A level 3 fine seems the right maximum penalty for the offence. We agreed in Committee that level 4 was the correct penalty for the main offences under the Bill of selling cigarettes to children under 16 and for failure to comply with a court order on vending machines. I cannot accept that it is right to set a similar maximum penalty for selling one cigarette to an adult. That is surely a less serious offence, and the penalty should reflect that. Where a retailer is accused of selling cigarettes to children under 16--even a single cigarette--he can be prosecuted under clause 1 and face the higher penalty under level 4 of £1,000, rising to £2,500 under the Criminal Justice Bill. If a retailer sells a single cigarette to a child, there is nothing to prevent him from being charged under clause 3 and under the principal provision. We shall give guidance to local authorities in the circular that we propose to issue when the Bill is enacted.
Sir Trevor Skeet : There appear to be two levels of penalties--one for selling to a child and another for selling to an adult. Should not the clause say so?
Column 699
Mr. Lloyd : It is perfectly clear. If someone is charged under clause 1 for selling cigarettes in packets of 10, in boxes of 200 or only one, the higher penalty is available to the court. If someone is charged under clause 3, only the lower penalty--level 3--is available to the court. If a single cigarette is sold to a child, a prosecution can be brought under both clauses and the court will decide what the fine should be. I believe that it is clear what is available to the prosecution. If evidence shows that someone has sold cigarettes to a child in ones, 10s or 200s, they should speedily consult their solicitor. If someone sold a single cigarette, he would have to plead hard at court to avoid substantial fines on both counts.Mr. Faulds : I am very pleased that, since Second Reading, we have managed to achieve a consensus, in Committee and with the Minister, on the important point concerning single cigarette sales. Clause 3 was designed to end the practice of breaking open packs and offering cigarettes for sale singly, and often at an inflated price. The House should be in no doubt that my motive is to help bring smoking by children and young teenagers to an end. Hon. Members sympathetic to the tobacco industry may declare that I intend more--that I really want to prevent adults from smoking. That suggestion has leaked through, but I must simply deny it. Adults who are smoking are to be pitied for their costly addiction. Let their doctors urge them to stop. Such advice is the province of the medical profession, which has offered it strenuously over decades. Only yesterday, the Townswomen's Guild conference on drug and alcohol abuse heard from doctors that smoking is far more dangerous than hard drug addiction. That may appear odd, but apparently it is the case. It causes overwhelmingly more deaths and fills many more beds in our hospital wards. Dr. Claire Gerada, talking of the impact of drug addiction during pregnancy, said that a pregnant mother who smoked 20 cigarettes a day would do far more harm to her unborn child than a pregnant woman who injected heroin every day with a fresh needle.
But if we can stop smoking in childhood, we should make enormous inroads into the whole range of adult problems associated with tobacco. Most people take up the habit before the age of 18. At root, tobacco use is caused by addiction begun in childhood. I am sure that the whole House will share my ambition to choke off this life-denying habit before it takes hold.
Unscrupulous traders who seek to make an even higher profit from children smoking will break open packs and sell a cigarette singly, often with a match, to children who cannot afford the price of a packet. The argument-- of course, it is plausible--was that the law already forbade the sale of cigarettes to children under 16, and thus a law preventing the sale of single cigarettes was unnecessary. The Minister explained his conversion, and the Committee looked at further evidence, including a recent paper published in the British Journal of Addiction, showing that the habit of selling cigarettes singly to children is particularly prevalent in poor areas, and that the more cigarettes a child smokes the more likely the child will be to buy them singly.
Clause 3 will make it illegal for retailers to sell cigarettes except in the original pack of 10 or more. It is most unlikely that it will have any effect on the trade in cigarettes to the adult market. One retailer who wrote objecting to the clause admitted that he never sold
| Next Section
| Home Page |