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House of Commons
Monday 22 April 1991
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Oral Answers to Questions
TRANSPORT
Rail Services (North-West)
1. Mr. Butler : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on progress in improving rail services to the north- west.
The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Roger Freeman) : British Rail is planning to upgrade Intercity west coast main line services, involving investment of some £750 million in new rolling stock, signalling and track improvements. British Rail recently invited tenders for the new trains.
Regional railways' north transpennine express services from Newcastle to Liverpool have already benefited from the introduction of the latest class 158 diesel units. They were brought into the service in January this year.
Mr. Butler : What provisions will be made for direct passenger services between the north-west and the channel, given that the regional sets that British Rail was meant to produce will not be ready on time? Is there any news about the location of the freight terminals in the north- west, a decision that has been long awaited?
Mr. Freeman : My hon. Friend will know that there are design problems with the trains for daytime through services. It is not a resource constraint on the Government but a problem with the manufacturers designing trains that will be able to run on the lines north of London where there is overhead electricity and a need to split the longer TGV trains which will serve the capitals. I very much hope that those services will be in place as soon as possible. In the interim between the opening of the tunnel and those trains running, we expect that British Rail will run services into Waterloo from the north-west so that passengers can interconnect quickly. As for night services, there is no reason to believe that they will be delayed on the west coast main line.
For freight services, British Rail intends to operate two terminals, one in Liverpool and one in Manchester. I hope that before too long British Rail will have made the final decisions about the precise locations.
Mr. Fearn : Does the Minister agree that an overnight sleeper service is desirable from the channel tunnel to the north-west if for no other reason than that the tourism industry in the north-west and in Scotland requires such a service?
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Mr. Freeman : I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important. If he has not seen the designs of British Rail and of some of the potential suppliers of those services, perhaps he might avail himself of an opportunity to do so and comment on the quality of service that will be available on sleepers and on overnight services from Paris and Brussels, which will run non-stop through London and up the west coast main line.
Mr. Sumberg : Will those improvements in the rail service to the north-west, which I welcome, lead to an abandonment by the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Chope) of the proposed Greater Manchester northern and western relief road? Will the Minister have a word with him to tell him that the rail service is improving and that therefore he need not proceed with the plan, which is much resented and disapproved of by my constituents?
Mr. Freeman : I shall certainly convey my hon. Friend's sentiments to my hon. Friend the Minister for Roads and Traffic, but I am bound to say that road investment in the north-west--especially in the Greater Manchester conurbation--has been significant in recent years, although there is a great deal further to go. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister for Roads and Traffic will deal with the specific point that my hon. Friend has made.
Mr. Snape : May I return the Minister to the question of rail services and especially to rail safety in the north-west? Is he aware that three of the most senior operating managers on the London Midland region have been removed from their jobs at a moment's notice because they were courageous enough to speak out about the impact on safety of present financial policies? Does he accept that in the event of a serious accident on British Rail arising from those policies, we shall hold the Secretary of State and his fellow Ministers responsible?
Mr. Freeman : Safety is the pre-eminent concern of not only British Rail, but the Department of Transport. I am aware of the specifics of the case of the three individuals who have been named. They are not the only guardians of the quality of safety on British Rail. Responsibility rests primarily with the chairman and with the board of British Rail. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of rail safety not only in terms of resource expenditure, but in ensuring that standards on existing equipment are maintained.
Speed Limits
2. Sir David Mitchell : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proposals he has to limit the speed of vehicles on leaving motorways.
The Minister for Roads and Traffic (Mr. Christopher Chope) : It is the responsibility of every motorist to drive safely and that includes observing the speed limit. We are monitoring the use of experimental yellow bar markings on slip roads to make drivers more aware of their speed.
Sir David Mitchell : Will the Department erect repeater 70 mph speed limit signs on the A303 west of the M3? Is my hon. Friend aware of the number of deaths, injuries and other accidents that have occurred on that section of road, including a nine-car pile-up into the back of a farm tractor at the weekend?
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Mr. Chope : I am well aware of the excessive speed at which many motorists travel on that stretch of road and of the number of accidents that have been occasioned. I know that the police take the issue of enforcement seriously. Earlier this month, they booked 59 drivers on that stretch of road ; the average speed at which they were travelling was 94 mph. I do not think that the speeding is so much inadvertent as deliberate and that is why I am sceptical about the idea of putting up repeater 70 mph limit signs. I have asked the Transport and Road Research Laboratory to look at that section of road to see what can be done to increase compliance with the speed limit. Largely as a result of the pressure from my hon. Friend, we have in the roads programme a major improvement to the part of the road between Bullington Cross and Andover, where many of the serious accidents have occurred. I hope that we shall be able to implement that soon.Fishing Vessel Losses
3. Dr. Godman : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many United Kingdom registered fishing vessels have been lost in each of the past four years ; and what was the number of fishermen drowned in such vessel losses.
The Minister for Shipping (Mr. Patrick McLoughlin) : Figures for 1990 are not yet available. For the years 1986 to 1989 inclusive, the numbers of United Kingdom fishing vessels lost were 19, 14, 22 and 22. The numbers of related deaths of fishermen were 11, four, 18 and 16.
Dr. Godman : Since I tabled the question, the Portsmouth trawler Wilhelmina has been lost, with its six-man crew, as the Minister will know. He and his officials need to do far more to enhance the safety of fishermen. When will he acknowledge the need for the provision of immersion suits on every fishing vessel over 10 m long? The carriage of such suits would save the lives of some fishermen. When will the Minister come to terms with that need?
Mr. McLoughlin : The hon. Gentleman will know that an investigation is continuing into the Wilhelmina. It is always sad and unfortunate to have to record the loss of a fishing vessel. Over the past 20 years, the number of losses each year has not changed very much, although in each case it is a particular tragedy. I will look at the question of immersion suits.
Mr. David Martin : My hon. Friend will recall that I raised with him last week the loss of the Wilhelmina J, a Portsmouth vessel, over Easter. There was a memorial service last week in Portsmouth, where the incident was taken very seriously. We all have sympathy for the relatives of the six people who lost their lives on board that vessel. My hon. Friend has assured me that an inquiry is proceeding as fast as it can and I do not wish to anticipate its findings. Can my hon. Friend confirm that the Zulfikar, the Cypriot ship involved, was stopped off Lisbon, earlier than it was at first thought possible to do as it sailed to Egypt, and that evidence will be gathered as soon as possible? Perhaps the lessons that can be learnt are--
Mr. Speaker : Order. Let us have not the lessons now, but the question to the Minister, please.
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Mr. Martin : Perhaps the lessons once the inquiry has reported could be that technological devices can be improved. Should not the application of radar transponder devices and collision avoidance for smaller vessels also be covered by legislation?
Mr. McLoughlin : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. The whole House shares in the sympathy for those involved in the tragic accident of the Wilhelmina. It is always tragic when fishing vessels go down because they are usually from small communities and the effect on such communities is substantial. I confirm that the inquiry is taking place and that the inspectors have already interviewed the master of the ship involved. The application of transponders will be brought to the attention of the inspector and he will probably address it when he makes his recommendation. I hope that we shall have an interim report in the next few days. When we shall be able to publish any of it remains to be seen.
Mrs. Ray Michie : The Minister will recall the sinking of the fishing vessel Antares, which sailed from Carradale in my constituency, in which four of the crew were lost. Does he agree that in view of the special circumstances and evidence surrounding that tragedy, the Ministry of Defence should take responsibility for funding representation for the families at the forthcoming fatal accident inquiry? If the Ministry of Defence continues to refuse to do so, will the Department of Transport consider helping those families, who have suffered a great deal already?
Mr. McLoughlin : The inquiry into the loss of the Antares is in progress. The points that the hon. Lady makes are first and foremost for the Ministry of Defence, but I shall bear in mind her comments and consider possible solutions.
Ms. Walley : Does the Minister agree that we need a complete overhaul of safety in all aspects of shipping? In respect of the incident about which we have just heard, does he agree that the failure of the Department of Transport and the Ministry of Defence to get together and resolve the matter is matched by the failure to approve and test the specification for the pinger devices which could do so much to improve safety when submarines are around? Was not that research interrupted because of the Gulf war and when will the Minister reach agreement with the Ministry of Defence so that our fishermen can fish in safety?
Mr. McLoughlin : I am fed up with the Opposition attempting to make party political points on what is a serious matter. If we are to start making party political points--I have tried to avoid doing so--we can look back and see that total losses were 37 in 1975, 35 in 1976, 37 in 1977, 38 in 1978 and 42 in 1979. Those were far greater losses than take place now. How dare the Opposition make cheap party political points?
British Rail Pay
4. Mr. Gregory : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether, in the British Rail pay round, consideration has been given to a share participation scheme ; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind) : I regret that a share participation scheme would
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not be possible for British Rail while it remains a nationalised industry, but this will become an attractive option once British Rail is in the private sector.Mr. Gregory : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that if it were possible for British Rail to be denationalised, the employees could benefit from a share option scheme? Indeed, those parts of British Rail that have been denationalised already benefit from such schemes. Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm, for example, that at British Rail Engineering Ltd. in York, people with the same qualifications as employees of British Rail are offered a pay differential of between 23 and 36 per cent? Does not that show the way forward for British Rail, as opposed to the old-fashioned trade union policies adopted by the trade union barons?
Mr. Rifkind : My hon. Friend is correct. Indeed, in 1990 BREL made a free allocation to employees of some of the 20 per cent. of shares bought by managers. Clearly, it is part of any privatisation to increase the opportunities available to employees. In previous privatisations employees have always come forward enthusiastically. That is one of the main advantages of introducing an industry to the new environment of the private sector.
Mr. Speaker : Mr. David--Mr. Dennis Skinner.
Mr. Skinner : That is my brother ; he is younger than me.
Mr. Speaker : I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. He slipped my memory for a moment!
Mr. Skinner : Is the Secretary of State aware that the employees of British Rail are not interested in share participation schemes? They are not interested in the offer that has been made by British Rail for their wages. They are not interested in what the Tories have to offer in respect of privatisation. They want the same kind of treatment as is being handed out in wages and conditions to the head of British Rail, who is picking up more than £200,000, and the other top directors who pocketed a 22.7 per cent increase last year. The Government should give the employees that treatment.
Mr. Rifkind : The chairman of British Rail is a man of exceptional ability. If we are to expect British Rail to achieve the progress that has been made in many other industries, it is crucial to ensure that the person who is attracted to take over responsibility for the industry is paid a salary commensurate with such ability. The current pay negotiations are primarily a matter for British Rail and I hope that British Rail employees will take into account the fact that inflation is now falling rapidly. That is increasingly recognised throughout industry as well as in the public sector.
Channel Tunnel
5. Mr. Gerald Bowden : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he plans to meet the chairman of British Rail to discuss the channel tunnel rail link.
7. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to be able to make an announcement on the route for the channel tunnel high-speed link.
Mr. Rifkind : I expect to receive British Rail's proposals for the channel tunnel rail link soon and will want to
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discuss them with Sir Bob Reid. The Government will reach their conclusions on the project as speedily as possible, but it is too early to say when announcements may be made.Mr. Bowden : In his discussions with Sir Bob Reid, will my right hon. and learned Friend impress upon him the benefits which will come from a route that is aligned on a junction at Stratford, as that will offer not only direct through trains from Stratford through King's Cross to the west country, but the opportunity for through trains, freight and passenger, to the whole of the United Kingdom?
Mr. Rifkind : Yes, I am certainly aware of the advantages that it is often suggested the Stratford connection would bring. I certainly expect British Rail fully to have considered that option with the other options in its current survey.
Mr. Speaker : I call Mr. Chris Smith.
Mr. Tony Banks : No, Mr. Speaker. I tabled Question 7, which was linked with this one.
Mr. Speaker : Yes, it should be Mr. Anthony Banks first.
Mr. Banks : Thank you, Sir. You obviously had a good weekend. It would be more helpful if the Secretary of State could give us a more precise date instead of "soon" for receiving British Rail's decisions. As he will know, all of London is waiting for this decision, not least his colleagues who have marginal constituencies and who have more than a passing interest in the line that will come through London. Will the Secretary of State bear it in mind that there are strategic implications and that the whole future prosperity and economic welfare of the east end is bound up in his decision? Will he give an undertaking to the House that he will consider the decision in terms of its strategic significance and importance?
Mr. Rifkind : Some time ago British Rail made it clear that it expected to make its recommendations to the Government this month. That may still be the case, but, obviously, that is a matter for British Rail. I fully appreciate the hon. Gentleman's points in the latter part of his question. Indeed, I would go further and say that British Rail's recommendations and the Government's decision on the high-speed link have potential national significance. It has implications not only for London and the south-east, but for the country as a whole. Therefore, I assure the hon. Gentleman that not only British Rail but the Government will address these matters with all the seriousness that they deserve.
Mr. Dunn : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many hundreds of people and many institutions and firms are awaiting anxiously the announcement of the final route? When he considers the route will he bear in mind the fact that we have been waiting for many, many months? Will he confirm that when he has made his decision on the route it will be reported to the House in the first instance and will not be announced during the summer recess?
Mr. Rifkind : I have indicated the seriousness with which I view these matters and, clearly, it is important not only to reach a decision but to do so as expeditiously as possible. I cannot anticipate when a conclusion will be
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possible, but I certainly appreciate the desirability of the House's being given an opportunity fully to consider any conclusion that the Government may reach in due course.Mr. Rees : To follow the Secretary of State's comment about national implications--this is a matter for us in Leeds, Yorkshire and the north in general--is not one of the problems to do with signalling arrangements? At the weekend I was informed of a serious problem arising from cheap, shoddy, signalling arrangements in Leeds. Will the Secretary of State consider that carefully? It is no good talking about a high-speed link, if the existing basic signalling is not up to standard.
Mr. Rifkind : I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that signalling is crucial to the smooth and acceptable operation of a railway service and I shall be happy to consider his points. I again emphasise the importance of the channel tunnel to areas north of London as well as to the south- east. Many would convincingly argue that the benefits of rail freight are all the more substantial the further north one goes, because of the longer journeys involved.
Mr. Wolfson : Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that proper consideration needs to be given to the strategic implications of a high-speed link to the channel tunnel? Does he agree that good rail links, comparable with those of the TGV in France, are generators of economic growth and prosperity? Will he give due weight to that in his deliberations?
Mr. Rifkind : Yes, I agree that good rail links are highly desirable. The public debate on these matters is somewhat different in north-west France, where there is great enthusiasm for any such proposed rail connections, from that in the south-east of England, which has a quite different economy and much more congestion because of the burden of population and where such matters are conducted differently. However, the basic principle remains the same ; rail links are crucial to the benefits of the channel tunnel on both sides of the channel.
Mr. Chris Smith : When the Secretary of State meets the chairman of British Rail will he make two essential points to him? First, it is important to ensure that there are fast and direct links from the channel tunnel to all parts of the country, not just to London. Secondly, in order to achieve that, it is not necessary to place an intolerable burden of extra congestion on King's Cross and its immediate area. Will he ensure that British Rail looks seriously and carefully at alternatives to King's Cross and does not dismiss them out of hand?
Mr. Rifkind : I expect the survey being undertaken by British Rail to consider the points that the hon. Gentleman has made. The implications for King's Cross and the alternative option of Stratford have been suggested by a number of quarters. British Rail's conclusions will carry additional weight if it can be seen to have considered all options fairly, objectively and responsibly.
Sir Robert McCrindle : Whereas my hon. Friends who represent constituencies in Kent and south-east London have varying degrees of apprehension about the fast link, is not it at least as important to remember that the people of east London, north London and Essex, by and large,
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support the Stratford option? Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear that in mind in his consideration of the matter?Mr. Rifkind : The points made today by my hon. Friend and by other hon. Members will emphasise to British Rail, if it needed reminding, that the House and the country expect that the study should look at all the options in a credible and objective fashion if British Rail's conclusions are to command the level of national support for which it hopes?
Mr. Prescott : Does the Secretary of State accept that this is not a matter entirely for British Rail and that the Government have the overriding responsibility to see that there is a high-speed rail link from the tunnel not only to London but to areas beyond--the midlands, the north, Wales and Scotland? When he makes his decision, on receiving the report from British Rail, will he consider making a statement before the summer recess, or will his judgment be based on electoral considerations?
Mr. Rifkind : I must await British Rail's recommendations. On the routes north of London, I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that, thanks to Government approval and support for British Rail, the electrification of the east coast line will be completed in the very near future. That will make a dramatic difference to rail services on the east coast. It will enable British Rail to continue to say that, apart from the networks of France and Japan, its railway network, especially inter-city, is one of the fastest in the world. That requires on-going investment of the sort that I have outlined and it is right to emphasise that British Rail today has one of the fastest rail networks in the world, other than those in France and Japan.
Transport Infrastructure (South Cumbria)
6. Mr. Franks : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to improve the transport infrastructure in south Cumbria.
Mr. McLoughlin : The current road programme for south Cumbria includes major improvements costing some £50 million. These proposals represent a very substantial investment and should greatly improve the trunk road network in south Cumbria.
I understand that British Rail is currently looking closely at options for improving the rail service between Preston and Barrow.
Mr. Franks : My hon. Friend will be aware that the south-west corner of Cumbria, particularly the town of Barrow, is probably one of the least accessible parts of the country. In view of the area's need to broaden its economic base following cuts in defence expenditure, will my hon. Friend give urgent priority to improving the local infrastructure, and particularly to an early commencement of a bypass at Dalton-in-Furness on the A590?
Mr. McLoughlin : I understand my hon. Friend's point and what he said about the A590. Those matters are currently being considered by my hon. Friend the Minister for Roads and Traffic and I hope that we shall soon be able to help my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Franks).
Mrs. Dunwoody : Is the Minister aware that west Cumbria would be greatly assisted by rapid improvements
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to the west coast line, which will require a certain amount of investment over the next five years? Will he undertake to discuss with the chairman of British Rail how the state can help to improve those services?Mr. McLoughlin : We are always willing to consider, with the chairman of British Rail, any proposals or investment programmes that British Rail wishes to pursue.
Mr. Jopling : Is my hon. Friend aware that, if the most serious and urgent problems of Barrow and the surrounding area are to be dealt with, as they must be, Ministers must apply their minds and their time to making special efforts to ensure that road communications are improved, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Franks) said, including the Lindale to Newby bridge stretch of road and the railway line to Barrow, where connections with the main line are haphazard, to say the least?
Mr. McLoughlin : I understand my right hon. Friend's concern. As I said in my original answer, British Rail is currently considering the matter.
A69
8. Mr. Martlew : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for improving the A69 road between Carlisle and Hexham.
Mr. Chope : We are improving the A69. I had the pleasure of opening the A69 Brampton bypass on Thursday. The preferred route for a bypass of Haltwhistle was announced on 10 December last year and we are now proceeding towards publication of the statutory orders. Other recent improvements include the provision of climbing lanes, and more will be done as required.
Mr. Martlew : Was not a political decision taken by the Minister last year to transfer responsibility from the Manchester regional office of the Department of Transport to Newcastle, and have not the consequences of that decision, which was taken without provision for extra manpower at Newcastle, been longer delays in projects to improve the A69, the Dalton bypass in the south of Cumbria and, most important to my constituents and to me, the proposed north-west bypass at Carlisle?
Mr. Chope : I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The transfer was made to put more resources into the major programme of road infrastructure and investment in Cumbria, amounting to £186 million. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will ask the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) which of the schemes in that £186 million programme in Cumbria would be cut in the event of there being a Labour Government. I am writing to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East today to ask which of the 53 schemes that we are announcing for the coming financial year would be cut in the event of his being responsible for these matters.
Mr. Amos : Does my hon. Friend agree that the north-east has been treated fairly with regard to new road construction. If my hon. Friend considers the characteristics of and the accident record for the various types of vehicles which use the A69, especially heavy lorries and caravans, I am sure that he will agree that that stretch of road needs to be dualled urgently.
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Mr. Chope : I understand my hon. Friend's point. That is one reason why I spent a lot of time last Thursday considering the A69 to see what possible further improvements could be added to the programme, in addition to the £186 million already in it.
Rail Services
9. Mr. Burns : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has any plans to introduce legislation to provide for compensation for rail users on lines such as the Chelmsford-Liverpool Street line who suffer from poor quality of service.
Mr. Freeman : Not at present, but the best way to improve quality of service is by investment in new rolling stock and infrastructure. That has happened for example on the Northampton route and will happen, in May, for the Chiltern route.
Mr. Burns : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. In the light of the speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the Conservative party central council in Southport, can my hon. Friend the Minister say how the possibility of a citizens' charter would benefit commuters on the Chelmsford-Liverpool Street line and other lines in the British Rail network?
Mr. Freeman : I think that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's speech is relevant to British Rail in that it requires quality targets to be set and communicated to customers, and for there to be some form of redress where appropriate. It is certainly appropriate to British Rail, particularly where there are monopolies--one thinks, for instance, of Network SouthEast. British Rail is already moving towards setting fare increases directly related to the achievement of quality on individual lines-- [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) laughs, but he will know that there is a distinction between the service from Southend to Liverpool Street--where a real fare increase followed an improvement in the quality of service--and the service from Southend and Fenchurch Street, where there has been no real fare increase because there has been no improvement.
Ms. Abbott : Does the Secretary of State accept that, as well as the plight of Chelmsford to Liverpool Street commuters, he should consider the plight of commuters in London generally? It has been revealed today that London is the most expensive commuter city in Europe-- [Interruption.]
Mr. Tony Banks : I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. It was my fault.
Ms. Abbott : We pay more in general and more for single journeys. Why should London commuters continue to pay astronomical fares for an increasingly shabby and sub-standard service?
Mr. Freeman : The hon. Lady should ask the Labour party spokesmen on the subject. I suspect that they would not agree with her, and neither would I.
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Mr. Freeman : If the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) will restrain himself, I will answer the question. I am sure that neither the Opposition spokesmen nor the Government would agree that it would be a sensible course of action now to cut fares on Network SouthEast. Investment would be a much better use of resources. Would the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms. Abbott) cut fares and, therefore, investment?Tyne Valley Rail Service
10. Mr. Amos : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what has been the extent of achievement of the performance targets set by his Department for the operation of the Tyne Valley rail service ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. McLoughlin : British Rail recognises that the quality of service on some lines in the north-east is lower than the customer is entitled to expect and it is taking steps to improve its performance.
Mr. Amos : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he give the lie to those mischief makers in my constituency who say that the Tyne Valley line is to be closed? Will he confirm, first, that British Rail has no plans to close the line and, secondly, that when British Rail is privatised, as I hope that it soon will be, the line will continue to receive a large subsidy from the Government?
Mr. McLoughlin : I can certainly confirm that there are no plans to close the Tyne Valley services.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has made it clear on a number of occasions that the fact that we are seeking to privatise British Rail does not mean that we would not continue to offer subsidies to provincial rail services.
Mr. Flynn rose --
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