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Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) : The poll tax in the Wirral is high not because we have a profligate Labour administration. Indeed, in all the discussions between central Government and the local authority, on no occasion has anyone been able to produce any table of heads of major local authority expenditure that would put the Wirral near the top of the expenditure league. No, the reasons why our poll tax is high are as simple as they are deadly.
One of the reasons has already been touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South (Ms. Primarolo). She said that in Bristol, as in Wirral, if there were the same level of Government support as is given to Wandsworth, far from receiving poll tax bills, the poll tax payers would be picking up a cheque from the local authority or the Government. When the Under-Secretary
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of State responds, will he say whether next year will bring justice to Wirral, as it has brought justice to Wandsworth in the past few years?That is not the only reason why our poll tax is high. Another reason is that our level of grant is so much below that set for other districts such as Wandsworth. The budget for the previous year was set by a Tory-Liberal administration and had two peculiar aspects. First, the Tory leader thought that the budget should be set by telephone. With the help of a local newspaper, a phone-in was conducted and people were asked to pick figures out of the air for the level at which the poll tax should be set. The Tory leader then took a figure at which the poll tax could be set if all the local authority reserves were used up, and the poll tax was set at that level. We therefore enter the current financial year with no financial reserves and a false budget from which this year's calculations have been made.
The Tory leader knew that the authority could not run at a modest level of services, let alone a generous level, at the figure at which he had set the poll tax without using the financial reserves, so the level of the authority's spending is last year's budget minus those reserves. [Interruption.]
Mr. Jimmy Dunnachie (Glasgow, Pollok) : My hon. Friend can continue until 11 pm.
The second reason why the poll tax is high is therefore the Government have taken last year's fixed budget levels to work out what we should be spending this year.
There is a third reason why our poll tax is high, and it has nothing to do with the current Labour administration. There is overspending on the Merseyside police and the transport authority. In both cases, Wirral council has to levy the poll tax required by those two organisations to raise their budgets. If their budgets had been set at the level at which the Government said that they should have been set, there would have been no question of overspending in the Wirral.
Therefore, my third question to the Under-Secretary of State is this : next year, will he allow authorities such as the police and transport authorities, over which the council has no control, to set budgets way above their SSAs and thus throw Wirral's budget into confusion, or will he take some restraining measures?
I am mindful of the fact that Opposition Members wish to sum up fully, so I shall conclude on the following point. When Warwickshire Members asked if they could come to talk to the Secretary of State and his colleagues about the budget in their constituencies for next year, he quickly turned and nodded. I hope that the same facilities will be provided for Wirral Members. We are debating an authority with one Labour seat and three Tory seats, so the confusion into which Wirral's budget has been thrown affects far more Tory voters than Labour voters. Sometimes one needs to be political in the House, but I am concerned about all the charge payers.
I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will answer the three questions that I have posed. First, why has Wirral been treated as it has? Had we had anything like the deal secured by Tory Wandsworth--and three out of four of our seats are Tory--we should have been picking up cheques, not paying poll tax. Secondly, given that a
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near-crazy regime governed the setting of our poll tax by telephone and the raiding of reserves last year, will some adjustment be made to what the Government believe Wirral should spend to keep within its budget, even if it were the most responsible body on earth? Despite all the pressures, had we not had to levy a poll tax for the regional transport authority and the police, we should still have been within the target that the Government had set us. My third question is therefore this : will the Government let those bodies levy whatever charges they choose, with the mayhem that that will bring, or will the Government take measures next year to ensure that the brave efforts made by the new Wirral administration, and the skill shown by our new leader in his negotiations with the Government, are able to bear fruit?There was some confusion a moment ago, but I think that I was being told that I could speak until 11 pm. Having asked my three questions, however, I shall sit down early in the hope that in the extra four minutes people in the Wirral will be given some clear, positive and encouraging answers by the Under-Secretary of State.
10.56 pm
Mr. Lewis Stevens (Nuneaton) : I am grateful to the Environment Ministers for the courtesy that they showed to Warwickshire Members by listening to their case, and for the easement of nearly £3 million that they granted the county. That takes it to within nearly 1 per cent. of the budget figure that was set and should allow the proposed cuts in services to be considerably modified. My hon. Friends the Members for Warwick and Leamington (Sir D. Smith) and for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) put Warwickshire's case forcefully and in some detail. Much of that case has been repeated several times to Ministers, and I have backed it at various meetings.
In the three minutes available to me, I should like to return to the standard spending assessment. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth mentioned a figure of £13 million, which originated in the changeover from rates to community charge. That seems to be the missing figure and it is one that crops up time and again. If we compute the difference between the SSA set by the Government and Warwickshire's proposed budget for this year, we again encounter the figure of £13 million. On both sides of the House, questions remain about that SSA. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said today that he would extend the capping to many other councils, according to their budget figures, and I welcome that. Capping is inevitable ; it is also the only way in which to control local government in the present circumstances.
My hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities made the point forcefully. Had it not been for capping, it would have been almost impossible to contain local government spending in total for the year. Within the SSA mechanism, however, there is a danger of certain factors being exaggerated--factors that work slightly to the benefit of some authorities and slightly to the disadvantage of others.
I suggest that there should be a fine-tuning mechanism. Factors such as salaries should be taken more into account in SSAs. Police salaries, for instance, may not produce an appropriate average, because long-service employees may be at the top of the scale. Let me make another suggestion : as we move towards a time when authorities will spend less
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than £15 million, it becomes more crucial to be in tune with the actualities rather than the averages that we have used until now. Unless we move to that, I fear that it will be difficult to ensure that the Government's assessment is fair and reasonable. I appreciate that the task is far from easy, but we must achieve it.If the Government explain to people and to authorities how the SSAs are made up, we may, by modification, achieve an assessment that works and is acceptable. However, it must be fine-tuned far more than at present.
11 pm
Mr. David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside) : Capping is neither necessary nor inevitable. The hon. Members for Nuneaton (Mr. Stevens) and for Kingswood (Mr. Hayward) believe that we cannot survive without capping and that the economy, social life and democratic character of our nation depend on it, but that is patent, blatant, silly nonsense. We did not have capping between 1601 and 1985. The friction between central and local government in the mid-1980s, the enormous cuts in services that were forced on local government from the centre and the enormous cuts in grant that necessitated increases in rates to maintain even a basic service were caused entirely by Conservative Members and the Government. It was their fault that local and central government got into a state in the mid-1980s, and it will be their fault if, in the months between now and the delayed general election, that fiasco continues.
It is clear that the £38.9 million that allegedly will be "saved" by the order has nothing to do with rational judgment of the operation of democracy or the economy or a rational view of how to assess need, levels of service or value for money at local level. The £200 million that was squandered by the delayed decision at the end of March to adjust the amount of central Government money that goes into local authority coffers was a deliberate act to try to ensure that the local elections would not be a fiasco. The £4.3 billion that was cut on achieving the £140 flat-rate reduction was a deliberate effort to save Conservative party seats. That failed, and capping will merely add to the Conservatives' demise. But £38.9 million was spent, without justification, in a pathetic attempt to hold down essential public services.
I wish to deal, first, with the economic argument. I agreed with 99 per cent. of what my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) said, except his notion that there is a role for central Government in determining the amount that should be raised and spent locally. That is not accepted in the bastion of private enterprise--the United States--and it should not be accepted anywhere else. There is no economic argument in terms of inflation, fiscal or macroeconomic policy for determining what a local authority raises and spends on local services. There are some fiscal and macro arguments on the amount of borrowing in the economy--the same arguments as apply to private-sector borrowing to build hypermarkets, shopping complexes and the leisure centres on which Conservative Members are so keen, but which are priced out of the reach of ordinary people. It is the same argument ; in fact, it is a much better argument in terms of public spending because it is less inflationary.
Public spending tends to be on essential items ; it tends not to generate imports ; it tends to put work into the local economy, to be more directly employee-based and,
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therefore, to employ people. When people are employed, less is spent on social security benefits. When they have wages in their pockets and they are lifted by a national minimum wage out of the penury of having to claim benefits even though they are in work, they can pay their taxes and national insurance contributions. Therefore, money is put back into the coffers.It makes sense from everyone's point of view to spend money on decent services, to give people jobs in which they can take pride rather than paying them to stay at home on the dole. Everybody knows that it makes sense. For every job that is lost through the poll tax capping exercise this year in the 14 authorities involved, there will be a price that we, as taxpayers, will have to pay.
£38.9 million will not be saved by this exercise--nor anything like it --because the money will be spent in other ways. It will be spent in not paying people to provide decent services for children in Warwickshire schools. It will be saved through the cut in the amount spent on the needs of the elderly in Lambeth, and it will be saved in terms of the miserable cuts in Basildon and Bristol which have been paraded tonight and of which the relevant Members of Parliament are so proud. It is difficult to take seriously the rantings of the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) because she is one of the old guard which is supposed to be quiet these days in the new phase of the Tory party. However, she speaks honestly about a Tory view of the world. She wants pavements repaired, but she does not want to employ anyone to repair them. She wants a village hall, but she does not anyone to open it. She wants a town hall, but she does not want anyone employed in it.
The hon. Member for Billericay is at least more honest than the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Irvine), who said that the local community does not want the cuts and that he has much sympathy with the people at the town hall who do not want their jobs to go. He said that it must be the nasty borough councillors who are squandering the extra £1.7 million, not on the jobs in the town hall, which he wishes to protect, nor on the services that the people want, but on mega, magic attendance allowances. We know that that is nonsense and the hon. Gentleman knows it, too.
Mr. Blunkett : Perhaps he does not know that it is nonsense, but he will get his come-uppance at the general election for not knowing what he is talking about and for trying to have it both ways. Let us consider the honest, decent John Major face of Conservatism in the form of the hon. Members who represent Warwickshire. I have never seen a group whose members were so sycophantic towards each other. It is all wonderful stuff--no one wants to cut the police, everyone wants the motorways to be checked regularly and no one wants poll tax capping in Warwickshire. Even the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir W. Shelton) does not want poll tax capping in Streatham--he wants it down the road in Vauxhall or in Norwood. He does not want Streatham baths to be closed, and nor do we. We do not want anyone's baths to be closed. We want decent services provided by local people and funded by a decent balance between local and national expenditure.
Of course, we want people in Warwickshire to be proud of the education provided there. We want them to fight for
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the services that they believe to be right for them. I commend the hon. Members for Warwick and Leamington and for Rugby and Kenilworth and all those who represent Warwickshire. They are right to support the belief in services to local people--whether it is the fire service which is under threat or decent provision in schools. All those things matter, and they matter in Langbaurgh, Bristol and Norwich. Only local people can determine what is right for them. The Government have no right to tell the people of Stoke-on-Trent that they must spend £2.2 million less than they intended to spend. It is not a profligate authority.I think that it was the hon. Member for Ipswich who said that he did not want to rub shoulders with Lambeth, Somerset, Warwickshire or Langbaurgh. He did not want to rub shoulders with anyone if he could help it. We want to rub shoulders with people who believe in a sense of community, who want to restore a sense of service and who take the Prime Minster at face value. He and members of the Cabinet keep telling us that they now believe in public service, in quality and in public spending, but not in local authorities, and certainly not in the 14 capped authorities.
Much depends on whom one goes to. If one goes to the hard man, the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities, would one believe that one would get a shift in one's budget? Four authorities went to him, made their case and pleaded their point. They included that bastion of revolutionary socialism, Lambeth. Four authorities went to the nice guy, the Parliamentary Under- Secretary of State for the Environment. Who got the uplift? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary, who clearly did not have authority to do anything, told Stoke-on-Trent that it was wonderful and gave it nothing. He also gave nothing to the other three authorities that visited him. Mr. Hard Guy, whose reputation is in severe danger of crumbling at this last hurdle before the general election, allocated the four authorities that saw him an uplift. There is a lesson in that. If the other six had gone to the Secretary of State, they would have been given a budget increase, not a decrease.
We all know that the Secretary of State does not believe in capping, and nor did the previous Secretary of State or his predecessor even though he took a Billericay view of the world. Nobody, except one or two of the hon. Members who have spoken tonight, who have to say that they support capping to show that they still cling to the hard-line policy of the Minister of State, really believes in it. The fact that there have had to be adjustments shows that all the capping is, at the bottom line, nonsense.
The standard spending assessments on which the figures are predicated are nonsense. In the Local Government Chronicle survey last week, 83 per cent. of treasurers said clearly that they thought that the system was flawed. It does not stand up to scrutiny and it should not do. The SSAs were never intended to be used for determining the exact level of spending in any individual local authority. No Government can know what individual councils should spend. No Minister, no matter how wise, can know the circumstances on the ground. He cannot know about the gaps in the pavement in Billericay, about the temperature of the water in Streatham or whether the council is giving good or bad value for money in Bristol or in Kingswood. Only local people can make a
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judgment. A decent and fair local democratic system, with annual elections, as we have suggested, and with intervention on quality, not on reducing service, will achieve the results.The hon. Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Miss Nicholson) suggested early in the debate that reducing people's services somehow increased value for money. It does not. What counts is intervention to improve management, to increase training and to ensure that services are delivered flexibly and sensitively for people who need them, not massive cuts in the budgets and the provision of services. As my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood said, when voluntary sector groups find that their grants are cut and when people discover that their services have gone, they ask one simple question-- "Why?" It is clear tonight that the answer ranges over a number of pounds. In Warwickshire, the figure is £9. For a few pounds a year--not a week --does one get the service that one wants or the service that the Government will foist on people? At last, the Government have decided that they will overcome the pretence that there are good and bad authorities. From the beginning of June when we debate the Bill that the Government will introduce, every local authority is a bad authority. Every authority will have to be whipped into line. Every authority will have to be overseen by a central Government who cannot allow diversity and decentralisation, and who cannot let local democracy work. A dictatorship of parliamentary democracy is no democracy at all.
To add insult to injury, it is those authorities which have fallen into line--the Minister was right when he said this--in terms of getting below the cap which should also be considered tonight. Until the Minister for Public Transport with responsibility for roads and traffic wrote to me yesterday, the Government intended to continue to cap the south Yorkshire authorities for spending on supertram money that they were receiving from the Department of Transport. As daft and stupid a way of running a system I cannot imagine.
Every authority has been affected because they have all had to make cuts. My authority has had to cut 1,300 posts this year. It is a crime that the streets are dirty. It is a crime that education has been cut in the way that it has. It is disgraceful that we cannot care for the elderly. There is only one set of people to blame and it is those on the Conservative Benches tonight.
11.15 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Robert Key) : This has been an important and long debate. After somefour hours, I shall do my best to answer the large number of points raised by right hon. and hon. Members. I am grateful to many of my hon. Friends for their contributions to this debate. Warwickshire has been represented in force by my hon. Friends the Members for Warwick and Leamington (Sir D. Smith), for Nuneaton (Mr. Stevens) and for Rugby and Kenilworth (Mr. Pawsey) who have spoken or intervened. In addition, my hon. Friends the Members for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth) and for Warwickshire, North (Mr. Maude) have been present in the Chamber for some hours.
We have also enjoyed interventions from my hon. Friends the Members for Amber Valley (Mr. Oppenheim), for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones) and for Billericay
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(Mrs. Gorman), whose colourful performance enlivened the debate no end. She is absolutely right. I did indeed meet councillors and council officers from her borough on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Sir W. Shelton) made a powerful argument and my hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Miss Nicholson), speaking in her traditional and forthright way, enlivened the debate.My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) brought a powerful argument to bear on the situation there. In particular, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Thompson), who made an important contribution which was none the less for the staggering attacks made on him by an Opposition Member. My hon. Friends the Members for Kingswood (Mr. Hayward) and for Ipswich (Mr. Irvine) also made important contributions. I shall attempt to deal with some of the points that they raised, but if time marches on too quickly I may not be able to answer all of them.
My hon. Friend the Member for Billericay brought to my attention the fact that it was alleged that her council, Basildon, had not had the opportunity of making its voice heard. That is not so. I met a deputation from the council on 9 May and councillor Ballard is reported in the local newspaper as saying :
"It was a friendly, constructive and helpful discusssion. We put all our cards on the table and the minister listened
sympathetically."
We have heard tonight that my hard and hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities has turned into the soft man and it is now the turn of the new hard man to wind up tonight's debate. I start by making it clear that the aim of capping is to require authorities to cut their budgets to a level which is not excessive. It is only when we have been convinced that we could not demand that of an authority that we have decided to require a somewhat smaller reduction. In the case of Stoke-on- Trent and Norwich we were satisfied that it was right to require the full reduction for 1991-92. For Ipswich and Basildon we decided that--
Ms. Walley rose--
Mr. Key : The hon. Lady must contain herself. I promise that I will answer the points concerning Stoke, but if she insists on intervening I shall be less likely to get there.
When we proposed our initial caps for Ipswich and Basildon we decided that in their circumstances some small reduction in 1991-92 was appropriate. We considered all the information submitted by the councils and we made our judgments. It is nonsense to suggest that the decisions are unfair or that the process is cloaked in secrecy. All the councils were given every opportunity to make their case for a higher cap. They took advantage of that opportunity. We listened carefully but concluded that our original judgments were, in most cases, right.
Let me start with the standard spending assessments. We have heard a lot this evening about how inadequate they are. I am at a loss to understand how hon. Members can make that accusation. SSAs are 19.4 per cent. up on last year. Hon. Members may say that that is hopelessly inadequate, but 237 local authorities throughout the country have budgeted within their SSAs. Across the country as a whole, the total of local authority budgets is just a half of 1 per cent. above total standard spending. Our approach has been that authorities budgeting a large
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amount over SSA must have smaller increases in their spending. The capping criteria reflect that. The eight authorities in this order are the only ones that failed to exercise the necessary restraint. It is gratifying that so many authorities have this year budgeted sensibly. We are pledged to encouraging them to do that in the future.If the House approves the draft orders, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will make them shortly thereafter and notices will be served on the local authorities concerned. We hope to do that very quickly. Authorities will then have 21 days to set their new, lower budgets. Charge payers should receive their lower bills next month.
Several Opposition Members have told chilling tales about the effects of capping on education, the social services and the police. I believe that many of these tales are mischievous. They have caused unnecessary anguish to parents and elderly people. The evidence is different. In many authorities capping is encouraging imaginative new ideas about how services are to be provided. Well-managed authorities are moving away from 100 per cent. local authority provision of, for example, residential care, or by stimulating co-operation with the private and voluntary sectors and by setting charges that reflect ability to pay. In education, 104 of the 109 education authorities are pursuing our education reforms without indulging in excessive budgets. Capping is providing a much-needed challenge to authorities that are notoriously inefficient. It is a tragedy that capping was needed to achieve that.
The right hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) referred to Stoke-on-Trent as the "sick" city. We are very much aware of Stoke-on- Trent's circumstances. We looked carefully at the council's health profile of the city of Stoke-on-Trent that it sent to us and that we discussed. Stoke-on-Trent receives very substantial Government assistance. My hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities referred to some of it. However, the council chose to increase its budget to 14 per cent. over SSA, which itself had increased by over 26 per cent.
The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms. Walley) asked me to explain why Stoke-on-Trent could have spent more last year than it is allowed to spend this year. Let us be clear. Stoke-on-Trent's budget last year was 24 per cent. above its SSA. It was on warning that the Government considered that it was spending too much then. But what did Stoke-on-Trent do ? It increased its budget by 16.4 per cent.--hardly the act of an authority that is trying its best to restrain spending. The cap specified in the draft order allows a 7.3 per cent. increase. We believe that this is reasonable and perfectly achievable for Stoke-on-Trent.
The right hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South said that last year the Minister had said that a £33.7 million budget was appropriate and proper. I fear that the right hon. Gentleman has misinterpreted what was said. Last year, as this year, the appropriate level of spending is the standard spending assessment. Last year, Stoke-on-Trent budgeted 24 per cent. above SSA. Such a spending level is far from appropriate ; we have never said otherwise. I accept that we did not cap Stoke-on-Trent last year. That is because last year we had a per adult element in our criteria. Therefore, we capped only those authorities that were most substantially in excess of the SSA. This year, having announced our provisional criteria in advance, it
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was right for us to act wherever a budget was excessive, or represented an excessive increase. We have done that. That is why Stoke-on-Trent has been capped.I do not say that Stoke should be compared only with the other district councils around. Warrington has many of the problems of Stoke. Stoke receives 13 per cent. more SSA per adult than Warrington. However, we could go on for a long time with such comparisons, and I must move on.
My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington spoke at some length about SSAs. We are beginning to discuss with local authority associations the SSA methodology for next year. We shall, of course, consider carefully any fresh evidence about SSAs. We are more than happy to meet my hon. Friend and other Warwickshire Members to discuss the position of Warwickshire county council.
The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) also had a good deal to say about SSAs. He said that they were arbitrary and that decisions on distribution of revenue support grant were taken by unaccountable people in Whitehall. All the SSA calculations are discussed with local authority associations and proposals are put out to consultation every year. The final distribution report is debated in the House. Opposition Members can hardly claim that decisions are taken in secret.
My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North compared Norwich with the rest of Norfolk. I am grateful to him for comparing Labour Norwich and the surrounding Conservative districts. Labour Norwich set a budget £36 per adult above SSA. Breckland set a budget £24 below SSA. Broadland set a budget £29 below SSA. Kings Lynn and West Norfolk set a budget £35 below SSA. South Norfolk set a budget £25 below SSA.
My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North spoke eloquently about the heritage of Norwich. There are many similarities between his constituency and mine of Salisbury. They are both beautiful ancient cities. We accept that Norwich has greater needs. It is a regional centre and has more social disadvantage. Salisbury's SSA is £103 per adult. Norwich's SSA is £141 per adult--37 per cent. more. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth spoke about police authorities. That is an important point. The Government are fully committed to effective policing. The number of police officers has risen by some 15,000 men and women since 1979. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced a further increase of 700 posts last December. We provided £4.67 billion for police expenditure this year--11.8 per cent. more than in 1990-91. For every £20 that police authorities spend, central Government funding meets about £17. I should add that, in Warwickshire, the police SSA increased by 12.4 per cent. compared with the shire county average of 10.5 per cent. The police service SSA for all forces other than the Metropolitan force is based on police establishments approved by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
The hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) asked me three questions. On the question about Wandsworth, Wirral as a whole does not have the needs of, say, Liverpool, Manchester or Wandsworth. It is much closer
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in character to St. Helens or Sefton and has an SSA to match its characteristics. Wirral's SSA is up 19.2 per cent. over last year. That is a generous increase.Secondly, the hon. Member for Birkenhead said that Wirral had been penalised because it had a low base from the previous Conservative administration. If we had made a special allowance for spending from balances, Wirral would have had the benefit of that additional spending not once but twice, because it would have been built into the budget for this year. We capped Wirral because it pushed up its demands on taxpayers by 20 per cent. compared with last year. That was too much.
Thirdly, the hon. Member for Birkenhead asked me about taking restraining measures against police and transport authorities, over which he said that Wirral had no control. The police and transport authorities are in a different position from that of the local authority. The police budget does not come within Wirral's budget. It has no bearing on whether Wirral is capped. But if a metropolitan police authority had budgeted excessively, we would have capped it. I accept that the transport authority's budget affects Wirral's budget. But Wirral is represented on that authority and it cannot claim that it has no say in the transport authority's budget.
Local authorities have to play their part in restraining public expenditure. If they do not, the Government cannot stand by. Inflation is now running at just about 6 per cent. Would Opposition Members stand idly by and let those authorities take ever more than their fair share of the nation's resources? We could not do so, and we have not done so.
I commend the order to the House.
Question put :--
The House divided : Ayes 266, Noes 191.
Division No. 151] [11.30 pm
AYES
Adley, Robert
Aitken, Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael
Amess, David
Amos, Alan
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas
Ashby, David
Atkinson, David
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Benyon, W.
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Boscawen, Hon Robert
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, A. (Brighton K'pto'n)
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes
Brandon-Bravo, Martin
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Browne, John (Winchester)
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Cash, William
Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sydney
Chope, Christopher
Churchill, Mr
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clark, Rt Hon Sir William
Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Colvin, Michael
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)
Cope, Rt Hon John
Cormack, Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Dickens, Geoffrey
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
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